 Welcome to this panel on neurodiversity and inclusion. This is the second day of Python India 2021 and this is gonna be a one hour panel. To moderate the panel, we have Panchali Banerjee with us. She would be taking forward the conversations over to you Panchali. Thank you all for joining us. Thank you Sukanya, thank you. Hello everybody and a warm welcome to the Pythonista community. The neurodiversity community across the country appreciates Python India for giving due importance to neurodiversity. All the major IT companies are hiring neurodiverse talent in India. And it's a proven business case that the neurodivergence have unique traits in them which if harnessed can prove to be an asset to business. Let me introduce myself. I'm Panchali co-founder of Orchvate. We are a team of neurodiverse corporate leaders and psychologists and our vision is to enable employment meaningful employment for neurodivergence in India. Today I think going by the statistics every year 7 lakh neurodivergence students are passing their 12th boards and the employability rate is only 10% for this resource pool. So we hope that our discussion today will strike a chord with the bright techies and they'll figure out ways to build a robust neurodiverse ecosystem which is currently lacking in the country. Today for the first time ever in India we are talking about this neurodiversity topic with a panel comprising 100% neurodivergent professionals and I have three amazing personalities with me here today. They have dared to believe that they can make a difference in driving neurodiversity and inclusion in the community. So let me introduce them to you formally. My first panelist is Asha Sridhar. Asha has completed her associate degree with honors and she started her career in the United States with the healthcare sector. She moved to India and she took up software testing certifications and enrolled herself with Enable India for the Autism at Work program. She joined SAP Labs and she's been with SAP Labs now for six years as a quality associate. Thank you Asha for joining us on the panel today. And the second panelist now is Joel Esgodi. Joel is a neurodiversity self advocate and a thought leader. He is the president of the neurodiversity association of the country and he's the founder of the neuro gifted project. He's led multiple initiatives for raising the awareness in this space globally. Thank you Joel for being with us on the panel today. Thank you. And the third panelist, yes. And the third panelist is Mark Chalsworth. Mark is globally acclaimed for being a subject matter expert in neurodivergence. He's an ADHD and autism specialist. He's a workplace neurodiversity consultant and a neurodivergent coach. So as a coach, he empowers his coaches to enhance their performances and to reach their goals. Thank you Mark for being with us on the panel today. Pleasure. Yeah, so let's move on. We'll start from wherever we ended yesterday. So neurodiversity is a huge, very, very big umbrella which includes all of us. So both the neurotypicals and the neurodivergence and neurodivergence includes any kind of neurological variation. So to give the audience for them to best relate with the neurodivergent conditions, I would request the panelists to share their lived experiences and take us through their personal journeys. So Asha, would you like to take over and start sharing your journey? Yes, Panchali, thank you. Can you all hear me? Yes, we can. Okay, so here's my story of my personal journey. I was born in Africa and did my primary schooling there. It was hard to get an autism diagnosis as it wasn't back then, but it was still accepted by students and school staff in the school in Africa. When I moved to US, I got diagnosed and received some help from the schools, but went through many problems with the students as they couldn't understand my autism disability. While working a few jobs in US related to the healthcare industry, one of my managers observed one of my autism traits, the attention to detail and being good with IT devices and persuaded me to pursue a career in the IT sector. I also got to meet a famous autism advocate named Dr. Temple Grandin and she also told me to pursue a career in the IT field. After returning to India, I completed two software testing courses and then joined the autism program at Enable India and got placed at SAP Labs India, where I am working today as a quality associate. Back to you, Panchali. Thank you. Congratulations, Asha, and thank you for taking us to that journey. I understand crossing those continents each time, uprooting yourself would have been very challenging, a new country, new culture, right? New friends, new home, new school. Yes, and you've done well for sure. Congratulations for that. Thank you. Yes, Joel, would you want to ask to take us to that journey of yours? Oh, well, let me start from my school days. Right from my childhood, there was one thing that was constant with me that I was someone who was always facing some kind of disciplinary action or I was under some punishment for something that I had done or said or, you know, so I was always getting into trouble. But when I went to school, I had my mom and dad both work in the same school where I studied. So it was a very difficult situation. I was extremely fidgety, continuously moving and talking and disturbing the class. So there were some conditions which I just couldn't stop myself. And even though teachers were tired of punishing me, they had no other option and they couldn't do more than that. And so I was a regular example of what you would say a nightmare, a nightmare in the classroom for any teacher. So, but at the same time, I had this ability to hyper-focus suddenly and pick up loads of information and process that information and memorize that information without putting any effort. So I didn't need to study for hours to prepare for my exams or anything like that. But whenever I did focus, it was always one time. And that's it, I read it once, I do it once and that's over and I don't need to do it again. So then teachers used to be amazed for a person who never can't focus for more than a few minutes in the classroom. He can't get his end for anything. How does he manage to pass his exams? How does he manage to get through all the other things which other regular students are challenged with? So the common thing that was said about me is he has great potential, but only if we can control him. So that was the common thing my parents heard and everybody used to say, I heard it many times, this guy has great potential. If only he could be controlled or he could be disciplined, so to speak. So this was my growing up years. It was only much later I came to know that I was ADHD, Asperger's and dyspraxic. And but by then I was 40 years old and but of course discovery changed my life but then 40 years of trying to fit into the system, 40 years of facing rejection, not only in school, in relationships, at work. It's not easy to accommodate a person with ADHD if you're not aware, if you're not aware and if you're not sensitized to what it is, everything might look like here's a confused person who can't sit straight, can't think straight, he's always fumbling and mumbling and forgetting things, random things. And so it can be quite irritating to a person who's next to you. So that's what it is. But now I've discovered and it's more than 10 years now and that's changed my entire life. Here I am today. Thank you so much Joel for taking us through that. I'm sure many of us listening to you were able to relate to some of those experiences either for themselves or for someone known to them. And yes, I agree with you Joel that in most homes we don't go for a consultation or a diagnosis unless we reach, our personal lives are disrupted. Till that point, we don't go for a diagnosis. Yes, Joel, thanks a lot. Mark, will you please share your journey with neurodivergence with us? Yes, hello. I collect these conditions like panini stickers, I've got ADHD, autism spectrum, brackets, aspergers, PTSD, epilepsy and had in the past depression which goes hand in hand. When I was at school, nursery school, I broke my arm. I was playing superheroes with my friends. I was about three, four years old on the climbing frames. And it was at that moment I realized Spider-Man can't fly. So I hit the floor and it's like, yep, I might be active, I'm a risk-taker, go for it. But I think I've broken every limb in my body, I've got scars everywhere, but that's never stopped me. But that was the realization in the moment. I struggled throughout school. It's not that I wasn't a keen learner, it was just that my ADHD, I got distracted. I'd forget my working memory and things like that. And my qualifications that I have and my intelligence level don't match. I've got four, sorry, I've got several GCSEs, I've got four Cs, three Ds and an F. Clearly I'm not a musician. But from Yorkshire, I was in the UK, I was trying to learn brass music, but no, I enjoy listening to it, but I'm not good at learning. So I started, it was a GMVQ business course, but it was rather than relying on my memory and doing A levels, I went for the vocational course. It was more of a, what was it? It was less academic as it were, but it was more coursework. But I got behind with the coursework and I was gonna go back, let me go back, but I never went back, I started working and that was it. But in my middle eight teeth, that's when I got my epilepsy and I got a diagnosis. And I was always gonna be, I wanted to join the military fly chin ups and then join the police service. But I don't like epileptic flying helicopters, which I suppose is fair enough. And so I ended up career wise lost. I fell into insurance because that was a nice logical order and area for me to be in. Moved around a bit, having ADHD, you don't tend to stick at one job, you try and find a better employer or a better role, you want the challenge. And ended up being self-employed doing what I do now. And I absolutely love it, problem-solving, helping people, finding solutions if people can't always see them, but neurodivergence, we're the ones solving the neurotypical problems for a long time. So yes, that's me. Thank you, thank you, Mark. Yes, all three of you, the challenges you'll face. And yes, today, it's all good when you look back, we are all laughing over it and we're smiling over it, but I'm sure those days were very, very tough for each one of you. Yeah, and if you see, it's very interesting that across borders, this story primarily is the same. So there's stigma, there's discrimination that people with invisible differences are going through and it's pervading all aspects of their life, like be it education, be it employment, like Yal said, be it relationships. So that's how it is. I'd like to put across something I strongly believe over here, Yal can tell me if you agree with me or not. The difference between neurodivergent and neurotypical is not a difference between black and white. We are all different shades of the same gray. So this human neurodiverse algorithm, quoting you, Mark, is a complex algorithm which neuroscientists are yet to fathom. And I see each one of us, each one of us have neurodivergent traits in us. Some have it less, some have it more, that's the difference. And neurological variation or differences is like any other human variation, just like differences in height, in weight, in gender orientation, skin color, heart rate, blood pressure, it's like any other human variation, that's how I see it. Yes, going into our next question, each of us through our life's journeys, we've been through our moments of highs, moments that we cherish, moments that we are proud of. For instance, if you ask me, my moment of high right now is Orphates partnering with this online educational platform for neurodivergent internship program. And you won't believe it, the overwhelming response we have got from neurodivergence across the country and brilliant profiles, I'm so happy for that. I would like y'all to share your moments of high. So moments that y'all cherish, moments that y'all are proud about. So we'll start with you, Joel. And then, Asha, you can go next and Mark, you can take over from there, okay? So yes, Joel, your moment of high. Yeah, 50 years of my life and having to speak about one particular high is definitely a challenge, but I had already thought of it. I have already thought of talking about my childhood because right from my childhood years, I understood that I was different. I didn't understand why I was different, what it is about me that was different, why I couldn't fit into the system that was around me, to the social structure around me, why I found myself questioning everything and trying to find alternate answers, why my mind was the way it was. I thought there was something about me that I hated at the time because it brought me to so much of rejection. But then there was these times of sheer genius that I spread out throughout my life, right through my childhood and to my adulthood. And these events kept my confidence and kept my faith in myself that, no, I can't be a reject. There must be some explanation to this. So I knew that something was there, but I couldn't put my finger to it. I'm going to briefly speak about a certain event. I was probably nine or 10 years old. That was the time, the first, I mean, the Asian games were coming up. And a lot of people in India didn't have what we call color televisions until the time. So all of us had small black and white TVs, the old ones. And we were, and it so happened that living in a middle class community, everybody was close knit and we knew everybody's televisions who had what television and things like that. So everybody was planning to buy color televisions for the Asian games. And that particular Asia was a huge thing happening because I think India was sending a large contingent. And there was so much of excitement behind this. And everybody wanted a color television. They wanted to watch the games in the color television. But for us middle-class people, it was not easy to just go and buy one. One, you, in those days, I don't know how many remember, but you had to go to a shop and place an order and then wait for the TV to come. So it's not like you walk in and pick it up. So it's not ready, it's not off the shelf because in a season, people just buy and you have to book it in advance. So my dad and mom were sitting at the table and having this conversation. And my dad was explaining how he was finding it difficult to budget because he had some other investments to make. And he could, he was finding it difficult to budget a television into the scheme of things. So although I was playing with my sisters close by in the same room, I was, my mind was also listening to that conversation. Though not actively, but in the end, the only thing I heard was, okay, so we're probably not going to have a television, color television this year, maybe some other time. So that was an immediate alarm bell for me. And that's when I reacted to my dad. And I just walked up to him and said, dad, I have an idea. I can't really place how, when this idea was forming in my head, but I'm sure that as he was speaking to my mom, my mind was already thinking up a plan, how I was, how he could have bought the television. So I walked up to him and he said, no, my son, I'm sorry, I can't buy the TV in time for the games. So you could watch it in your neighbor's house, you could watch it in your friend's house. So, but then I said, dad, I have an idea. I have an idea and I gave him an idea that simply amazed him. The idea was that when we had bought the black and white TV, we had bought it from a dealer. He's not a proper dealer. Doesn't have a shop, but it was an individual who brought a few sets of televisions and sold them to everybody in our community on installments. So you didn't have to pay for it at one time. So those were the days without credit cards and electronic money, nothing in those days. So I told him, why, let's go back to this guy. I know a few people who want to buy, my friends, parents, they want to buy. I'm sure we in our community, a few of us want to buy these color TVs. Let's go to him and tell him to get color TVs and we'll buy them on installment. So my dad was shocked. He said, I don't know if I can approach this man like this, but then they did because the idea was so good. And what actually happened finally was a lot of us bought color TVs in my colony and the dealer was very happy. He made a good answer profit. My dad was happy because he didn't have to stretch his finances too much. So throughout my life, I have these times of sheer genius coming out. I don't know from where, but it's definitely because of my out of the box thinking. It's definitely, but this kind of out of box thinking that is a signature trade of ADHD, if I may say that, it also can get you into a lot of trouble because you're thinking and somebody is talking to you right now about something and you've already taken that conversation 10 steps ahead and pop come the question from there. And this person has no clue where that question had come from because we haven't yet reached that place in the conversation. So it can get you into a lot of trouble, but also can give you some conditions and trades that can be really appreciated. And I have a lot to talk about. Thanks, thanks Joel for sharing that very cute little story about your childhood, about that little boy and the aha moment for the little boy when his parents kind of appreciated him and a big wow to all of us hearing the story that how that little boy was able to connect the distant dot somewhere and get that solution amazing. And of course, I'd like to put across to the audience here that something I realized while Joel was talking, he being the president of the Neurodiversity Association of the country, a lot of highs in his life for sure, but he chose to narrate this simple story of his childhood which speaks volumes about him as a person. So his gentleness, his humility and his genuineness, these are also qualities of the neurodivergent. All right, thanks Joel. Over to you, Asha, your high stories, high times, yes. Tell us. Okay, thank you, Panchali. So I never dreamed of a day of advocating autism for United Nations, UNESCO, as I felt they were very prestigious and hard to get into them. My story is published on the UNESCO website. So this is how it started of getting into UNESCO, my story. A colleague from the Rotary Abilities Club sent an email stating that UNESCO is wanting stories for development from individuals with disabilities. So the club members reached out to me and asked me to try and submit my story since I have autism and they said it will help to spread autism awareness in this platform. I followed the directions as per the UNESCO website and wrote my story which got published on the UNESCO website. It came out very nicely. I shared with a couple of colleagues and they are admiring the story and complimenting of how I'm making the company a great place to work and how I'm serving as a role model with autism. They also mentioned that I'm a very brave individual to put my story on UNESCO website. Thank you. Back over to you, Panchali. Thank you, Asha. Yes, congratulations, super vows, super vows. And yes, I do agree that very proud moments for sure. And just a question to you when you got this news, like, you know, you're going to be on the panel for this UN event. Did you feel nervous? You felt proud. You felt happy. It came as a shock. But did you feel nervous or in us anxious? I felt a little bit nervous being on the United Nation because it was a different time zone and there were speakers from other countries speaking. So I didn't know what time I have to log in. So what do you do in such, you know, how do you deal with this nervousness which happens or a little bit of, you know, anxiety? How do you deal with this in such situations? So I try to ask as many questions and then cooperate with the panelists and the hosts who are moderating the event by asking what time should I log in and try to be focused online as much as possible. Good tips for everybody. Good tips for the neurotypicals. Yes, a lot of learning, a lot of learning. And another thing, you know, while you were talking, Asha, that I realized is neurodivergence at least a very, very dear friend of mine. You know, the relationship, the bonding is so good. I know that, you know, even if the world falls apart, she's there, she's gonna be there. And that's when you said you spoke of your club members who actually reached out to you, saying that, why don't you write? That's the real bonding. That's the real good friends that you have around you. It speaks a lot, it speaks a lot about you. All right, thanks a lot, thanks a lot, Asha. Yes, Mark, we are all there listening. Hi, my ADHD presents as a difficulty with, and just for many people ADHD, as an expression of writing, even though we're very good with words and we're pedantic and we'll press pause and say, hang on, is that full stop should be though? Is it a comma or is that the right spelling? Is it we're pedantic over words? But the expression of writing for me comes with, you've got a black piece of paper in front of you, the words are in there, and I need to get them out. It might be a talk, it might be a speech, it might be a best man's speech, it could be anything. It's difficult to get out. And if it's not my time for writing, I have to leave it and go do something else. But despite that difficulty, I wrote a neurodiversity guidebook, took me about 18 months. And I've also written the 11 principles of neurodiversity inclusion after that. Oh, wow. And what I had to do was, with anything that I do, is I turn the headings and things like that into questions. And if I answer a question, then I'm better, rather than just, it's a headline, right? Okay, now what do I piece where? Whereas I'm answering a question, because I've already got the knowledge in there, it starts to flow and yeah, the first presentation is never the one that you will publish, it worked, but so there was lots of research involved as well. And an ADHD, people will know this. Even though we want to read that book, we struggle to read, not because, as I say, we're struggling with the words per se, it's that by the time we get the end of the page, it's like, who was the character in that? What was the main point there? Let me go back over that. And then the effort and so on as well to keep going and the focus, and there's other stuff going on around you that you think is far more interesting. And so yeah, I think that was one of the greatest achievements. All right, congratulations. Yes, fantastic. You know what? I think the audience here, almost, I'm sure more than the majority, 50% or I think close to 70, 80% would actually have the dreams that you had. One is quit jobs, quit the job and start something of my own, my own venture. We all dream about that, but very few can actually do it. You did that number one, which you told us in the last, in a previous story of yours when you were sharing that journey, moving from insurance to your own venture. And this was the second achievement that you mentioned, writing your own book, authoring your book. We all have those dreams, but none of us can really realize those dreams in one lifetime, and you've done both, remarkable. So your own venture and two books, wow. So are these books what, eBooks or? Yes, they're eBooks, they're eBooks. And what's the price? Free gratis. Oh, wow. Absolutely great. Now the reason they're free, the cheeky marketing tools. Let's hear about it. Why did you offer it free, of course? What's the reason? Initially, it was going to be just as an extra as I did when I delivered a course. It was like, oh, there you go, there's a handout. And then I thought I'd introduce some good marketing here and I've pieced it all together and research and things. And I could sell it, but by the time I've put all the effort into selling it, I need to then also fund some marketing. So I thought I'll merge the two. It's going to cost me. And I've had quite a bit of interest actually as a result of that book. So wow, out with a book, minus that effort. It's a paper, and I want to help people as well. I want to, there's a lot of, but the employment rate here in the UK is less than 20% of neurodivergent to employed, but if you don't have any kind of condition, it's 80% employed. And then if you have a heart condition or if you've got a wheelchair or something, in the 60s, you're employed. The bottom two groups, 37% of epileptics are employed and less than 20% of those with neurodiversity, neurodivergence, or if you've got depression, that's what you're doing. True, the employability rate is, the numbers don't matter, but it's very, very low across continents. Yeah, globally. Yeah, right. And that is where we need to do something about it. And I'm so glad all three of you are driving that so well. Yes, so remarkable achievements, amazing stories. And yes, my advice to the audience here that after the session is over, quickly log into Mark Charlesworth. What's the book called, Mark, once again? Oh, it's MarkCharlesworth.org and it's a neurodiversity guidebook. Okay, neurodiversity guidebook. Yeah, if they've got the free resources section, it's under there. So quickly go into that and download it because you never know when Mark's gonna change his mind and it's gonna take it off and it's gonna take it off. Yeah. All right, again, odd mark by the neurodivergent thinking. It's amazing the way you'll think from a different angle of elevation and every time you'll manage to think big. It's amazing. Moving on to the next question, which would be specifically addressed, a question to each one of you. I know these achievements did not come easy. A lot of challenges, a lot of roadblocks. My question to you, Asha, is you worked in the US in the healthcare sector. Then you came to India, you worked in SAP labs for six years. So this entire journey, working in US, India, was it smooth all through or were there challenges? If you can take us to some of those challenges. Yes, Asha. Okay, thank you, Panchani. So the life at work in US was very difficult for me as because I had a hard time sustaining employment due to extensive multitasking and customer service interaction. But with my previous managers and Dr. Temple Grandin's advisors, I came to India with my parents and learned software testing skills. I enrolled in the Enable India Autism at Work program and this is a funny thing. I was the only girl in the program and all the others were 10 boys. So we were like a family. The boys used to play pranks on me and tease me, but we had so much fun. And then after that, I got selected for SAP labs in Bangalore, India. The journey was smooth from Enable India to SAP. I was a very shy and scared person because SAP was a big company and it was my first job in India as well. But after I started working, I found the colleagues to be very friendly, encouraging, supportive, inclusive and helpful. So whenever we go out for team outings, like where there's a lot of loud music, heat, et cetera, I'm able to open up to the coworkers and express my concerns. So they provide accommodations in those places by saying go to another room with less sound and where it's cool for me. And then they check is everything okay with me, am I having issues? Back over to you, Panchali. Thank you. Thank you so much, Asha, for sharing those. Again, those would be insights for all the people listening on today, not just about adjustments they need to make for themselves, like being open about exposing your vulnerabilities to your coworkers. And at times we feel scared that we won't be accepted, but like Asha said, let's give it, let's give it a try. There's every chance you will be accepted. Yes, and definitely yes. So it's not just being motivated and encouraged to do the work, but apart from the work, there's so much, right? Going for those get-togethers and things like that. And it's so important that we are accepted in those events as well, not just be doing our work. Yes, thank you, Asha. It's so nice that you're happy with SAP Labs and you're enjoying your work there. You're welcome, Panchali. I wanted to mention one more thing. Yes, please. After joining SAP Labs also, one of my team mentor reached out to me and asked me to write my first blog for Medium, Autism Network. And she helped me with getting it published on their website. That's it. So that engagement, engaging us, it's not just we do being productive in our work, but engaging us in all the other events is so important. Thank you. Thank you, Asha. My question to you, Joel, you've been associated with so many organizations and institutions, right? What are the two main reasons that you feel are for the gaps that you see in the existing systems? What are the two main reasons for those gaps? And what are you doing to bridge those gaps? Well, there are many gaps, but if I have to select just two gaps, I will talk about the stigma. One, the stigma attached to people with neurodiverse conditions. Especially in Asian communities, we have seen a tendency to deny. Parents live in denial because there are different ways that society around them understands or perceives and defines neurodiverse conditions. So when you say if you would not want to go and accept that your child is autistic or ADHD or dyslexic or anything like that, because that would be immediately seen as some kind of a genetic fault or genetic problem that needed to be rectified and then you will have all kinds of suggestions coming your way right from medical treatment to herbal ancient traditional treatment to maybe even mystical religious solutions. So, but we all know that neurodiversity is mostly because of genetic inheritance and it has nothing to do. You might even acquire some of those conditions and none of these conditions are such that they are exclusive only to neurodivergent people. Regular people have all these conditions. When you talk of a distracting brain, a lot of people have a distracting brain, but is it to that level of intensity or not? Is an issue that needs to be seen? So all of us face these situations, that's nothing abnormal. But to look at people who have these conditions and the stims associated with it and all the other defense and coping mechanisms that they develop like me, it's very difficult now at the age 50 plus for someone to immediately understand that I am neurodivergent because I have over the years, I have disguised myself so well. I've learned to mask myself so well that it's very difficult and only when you catch me in a particular situation will you be able to immediately... And that too, if you are aware. So there is a lot of stigma attached. So one of the gaps there is we need a lot of people to speak, appreciate the strengths of neurodiverse individuals. We need to highlight and take the strength model forward. So that is one way a gap that exists. Now it's the same across different countries. It's not just limited to India. Wherever you go in the world for different reasons, this the ignorance exists, stigma exists. Next comes the second gap that I'm talking about is, especially when we talk of neurodivergent individuals. Now I'm talking about adults. Those, okay, they've been through schooling, they've learned a few things, maybe in a special school, maybe with some special educators and things like that have been through school, but then there is a huge gap between formal education and joining self-employment or achieving your financial freedom or even a decent employment because of the way interviews are structured. HRs are not trained to understand neurodivergent behavioral patterns. So what they have is very clear. They look for a person who will look you straight in the eye, give you a nice smile and immediately start talking, have good body posture and the oozing of confidence. Everybody knows that's proof of nothing. Anybody can learn to do that for an hour or two through an interview process, but interviews have to be redesigned to accommodate neurodiverse talents. And we've been doing that. I've worked over the last five years with different templates and models for different requirements. And that's one gap. We need a lot of professionals in the field. We need technology. Today we have a lot of technical, technology-related people sitting here. So, yes, we need a lot of solutions, technology to come in and help us to be able to process better and process our interviewees better in that way. So gaps in society, knowledge, societal ignorance is one thing. And then the gap between- professional training. Yes, onboarding people onto proper, not just employment, even entrepreneurship opportunities, whatever it is, there has to be dignity in that diversity. They cannot be thrown into small run-of-the-mill jobs, okay, you become a waiter or you become a tailor. That is not what we're talking about. We're talking about equal rights. And that's where this whole thing, that's where a major gap exists. So what have you been doing? Have you been doing anything about this? Yes, so what I have been doing is, of course, we conduct a lot of awareness programs. We go and talk at various platforms. We try to educate people. And if people want to learn more, we offer them different ways of accumulating information. And also if they want to have a session in their companies, of course, everything that everybody needs to do, we help them do it. Not only that, we help them to plan their policies and strategies if it is a company. If it is an individual, we help them to map their careers and see how it goes and what are the best options for them. So I'm working with Mark also to create an international course for creating neurodiverse professionals. So that is something that doesn't exist. Of course, you might call it very ambitious just for two or three people to go do it, but we are responding to the need. It's not a personal, it's not something we're doing for a choreograph. This is very personal. And as part of our activism, we are going and addressing a need that will hopefully plug the gaps in the systems. Absolutely. It's going to be a milestone. It's going to be a milestone in the neurodiversity inclusion movement. If you have these courses that you're talking about, fantastic. So when do you think you'll be able to launch it? Yeah, but we will end the 2022 with the courses. Yes, Mark? Wow. Wow. All the best. All the best wishes to you, Joel and Mark for putting that together. It will mean a lot across the world. Those courses, yes. So many people would be professionally trained on making those workplaces inclusive. And with every aspect, not just hiring. So hiring, integration, all of it, fantastic. Yes, Mark, my question to you. You've been an ADHD and autism specialist, right? A neurodivergent coach as well. So you get so many clients, neurodivergence who come to you with their concerns. Can you share a couple of neurodivergence concerns that you have addressed and how have you addressed them? When I was coaching somebody, there was a corporate or a senior project manager and they were looking after a particular product and the label. And their project was updating that label and they had to discuss with lots of different teams. So there was legal, there was compliance, there was in the marketing department, there was everybody else and they have ADHD and convince them of other conditions but they didn't want to disclose. We're very, very private and so eventually I managed to help them disclose because there was a lot of friction at work because they hadn't disclosed their condition. Not everybody wants to. No, not everyone knows how to and so on. And as soon as I'd helped that person share that information with the MeriMedia colleagues, they were like, ah, right, I thought that was something but obviously we're not allowed to ask and so on and they couldn't get it all helpful and she's since gone on to get a promotion. So that's good because I think sharing is caring and if you just let people know who you are and be your authentic self, I think that's half the battle. Another, sorry, I didn't start my clock off so you'll have to keep me on time. And another example, actually I'll give you my, it's an old story but it's my story. I was working for Norwich Union or a Viva as it is now a few years ago and it was before I got diagnosed and it was worth it. We're analyzing claims histories on an individual basis to see whether or not to increase or decrease terms to keep the same or pass it on to the front team. And I was doing about 12 kisses a day. My colleagues were doing about 18 a day and nobody came to me to say, there was anything wrong with my work. Nobody went to my colleagues to say, hang on, you're rushing that work and we couldn't work out and then we were trying to work out why am I doing so only 12 and they're doing 18 and it transpired because of my work in memory with ADHD, undiagnosed and I wasn't thinking about it at the time. I was making copious amounts of notes but my aspergers meant I made even more detailed notes just in case somebody came back to me to say, Mark, can you justify that decision? Because tomorrow I'd have dealt with another 12 and I'll be like, I can't, I can't, I'll have to do it again. Nobody in the end actually came to any of us to say, can you justify that decision? So it was a waste of time anyway. But everybody's capable of their own 100% and in that case, mine was 12, my colleagues was 18 and same with this lady I was coaching and in other places, I look at what, you have to look at what that person's 100% is and not compare to another person and that's mainly what I do and everybody's capable of their 100% if they accept their own limitations so you can overcome those. Like for example, we've just had a few people get into space and just come back down. No human being can get into space. We don't have the breathing equipment, we don't have a condor or fly, we can't but if you know your limitations, you can then overcome them and you can build on them and confidence, training, confidence by other people, you may be really confident to do it and to know like, all right, that's not the right path, willingness to learn and so on. So we're all capable of anything, just we need to mold and move around a bit so we can reach that. So that's essentially what- Thank you. What I do there. And organizing, making, helping people to organize and prioritize themselves. Thank you, Mark. Brilliant insights, I'm sure we are gonna take again, like I earlier said, that these would be insights and tips for everybody, for neuro-typicals and neuro-divergence. Safe workplace built on trust where we are able to be authentic and we accept other people for who they are and like you said, that was wonderful that we don't evaluate people based on social comparison but we evaluate people based on temporal aspects, that's where they were and now where they are. So that's how it should be, fantastic. Thank you so much. We'll move into our last question, which is how do y'all see a truly inclusive workplace, what are the two things that a truly inclusive workplace should have? So each of you, I'm gonna ask for two points. Now how are we gonna do it? We'll do it as a rapid fire, okay? So like I'm gonna say, like Joel shoot and then Joel goes bang, then Asha shoot, Asha goes bang, so I'm not gonna tell the order in which I'm gonna go, it'll be a random order but I'll give you six seconds to have your thoughts in place and which are the two points you're gonna mention, so I'll do a countdown. Are you ready for it? Thumbs up if you're ready for it. All right, good, good, yeah. Okay, so six, five, four, three, two, one, start. Asha shoot. A truly inclusive workplace is where each person is acknowledged for being who they are and appreciated for their contribution. Fantastic, fantastic. Mark, shoot. All, everybody going back while I said that in any application of any reward system or recognition of what you've done needs to be only your 100% and adjustments made. Perfect, Joel, Joel shoot. Yeah, well, I think one of the key things that we need to do for more inclusion, especially for neurodivergence in the workplace is the creation of safe zones or safety zones. A safe zone could be a place that a person can retreat to, to refresh themselves or even to avoid sensory overwhelming, whether it is because of sound or light or noise or whatever it is. So, or it could be a person, a go-to person, which is like a body system in an organization where we can always talk and get our points across. So safe zones are important. Perfect, Joel, you're going next. Joel, you're going next. All right, so of course there has to be, these are all tactical things, whatever we're saying about safe zones and all, but there has to be at the strategy level, at the very top, a company should have a fixed language and a fixed approach. They have to create policies to accommodate neurodivergent individuals. Managers can only do so much. Center heads can only do so much, but there has to be uniformity across all the segments of a given organization. So it has to be something right at the top. There has to be policy change, right? Policy is in place. Perfect, perfect. Asha Shute. A truly inclusive workplace is where the neurodiverse team members are supported and motivated by their colleagues and made to feel accepted and included in all activities. Perfect, perfect. Yes, yes, Mark, yours. Ah, I think all neurodiverse stakeholders need different types of communication in many ways so that they can have a 360 degree view of the organization, not just their role and the people around them, but the whole culture of the organization, its aims, its goals, its practices and so on. Have that 360 degree view, whether it be in writing an audio podcast, anything. Perfect, perfect. Thank you so much, thank you so much. A lot of takeaways from that rapid fire round. And I will hand over, and thanks a lot, Asha, Mark, Joel, for taking out that time and sharing your insights, sharing your perspectives. I'm going to hand it over to Sukanya now, who's going to take over the Q&A bit. And yes, Sukanya, where are you? First of all, thanks everyone for this wonderful and engaging panel. I see a lot of encouraging posts in the chat and thank you Panjali for moderating through this panel entirely flawlessly. We do have a few questions, but maybe we can take a couple of them right now. And of course, all of you would be hanging on the backstage, so if there are any further questions, so people can post in there. So to start with maybe we can go ahead with one. It's on the screen. How do neurodivergent people cope with rejection and stressful situations inside email business? Who would want to take it? I'll make it so that anybody can go ahead. There's two elements to the question. Most people with ADHD have something called rejection-sensitive dysphoria in that it might be somebody who's not replied quick enough by a text or email or whatever, or they've passed you in the street, which is genuinely not seeing you and you think they've ignored you. And what can happen there is it takes over your mind like a computer virus. You can't wait until that's resolved. It might be a day, two days a week to resolve that. When it comes to anxiety, it depends on the person and the situation, but a lot of people with autism have more stress and anxiety than most people. There's three elements to the anxiety. There's you might be invited to an event. There's being invited to the event that's now causing stress. What do I wear? Where do I go? Who do I see? Then there's at the event. Who do I talk to? What do I see? And then there's anxiety after that event. And there's also change. People with autism, we're okay with change. We're fairly flexible, but it's that sudden change. So if we've got a bit of notice, we're okay with it. And I'm gonna hand over for others to expand on. Yes, thanks Mark. The question was, I think, how do we deal with that anxiety? So any tips on that? How do people deal with that anxiety at the workplace? Well, we've been dealing with anxiety all through our lives. So it's not everybody develops their own coping mechanism to deal with anxiety. Someone goes to retreats to a quiet place. Someone listens to music. Someone goes and binge eats food. So everybody has their own mechanism to handle their anxiety. But of course, anxiety shouldn't be there in the workplace, but if it's still there, then every individual has definitely, if it's an adult, then they would have definitely developed their own defense mechanism. Thank you so much. Maybe another question. Is OCD a neurodiverse condition? Mark, can I take that? Yes, yes. Well, obsessive compulsion disorder also is a neurological condition. Now, any kind of variation in the neurological makeup of a person means that there is a divergence that is something away from the normal. So I wouldn't say abnormal, but OCD has its own peculiar traits. A person with OCD displays certain behavioral traits and all. So nowadays, yes, we are, in the recent past, we have begun to look at OCD also as one of the neurodivergent, I would say, that falls under the definition of neurodivergence. Now, OCD unfortunately can also be acquired. It's not like autism, classic autism or classic ADHD, which is always genetic. OCD, a person can develop it in their life also because of any post-traumatic stress disorder or because of any traumatic experience that they go through. So therefore, the subject is still evolving. But today we can say that OCD has conditions that can prove to be like that of a neurodivergent individual. Yes, and I would like to add over here with the COVID-19 here, quite a few of us have developed the OCD of washing our hands and spending a lot of time worrying about infections. So yes, it is a neurodivergent condition, but as long as it doesn't disrupt your life, it's fine. You can deal with it. So, yes. Great, thanks for answering that. Maybe one last question as we are on the top of the hour. So, would you mind sharing your hobbies and tips on focusing and increasing productivity? Asha, you would want to take that? Yes. Continue Panchali, sorry. You would want to take that, Asha. Tips on how to increase your productivity. Okay, tips on increasing productivity is every day you must get up and see what tasks are on your list and focus on the tasks based on priority and which ones are important. And any hobbies, the question was, do you have any hobbies that would increase your productivity? Right, that was the question, right, Sukanya? Can you put the question there? Sure, would you mind sharing your hobbies? Sharing your hobbies, yes. And also any tips on focusing and increasing productivity. I think you'll answer the productivity part, maybe how to increase focus. That could also be another question. So, yes. So, my hobbies are... You would want to know your hobbies. What are your hobbies, Asha? So, I like reading novels, watching Netflix movies, traveling and listening to music. Mark, what are your hobbies? I love go-karting with my son, because it gives me absolute freedom to get around a car as an ADHDR and to solve a problem. And that problem on that day, not necessarily coming first, because I haven't yet, well, I've come close, is just getting around the track once, twice, three, you get 15 times within 15 minutes. So, because it puts me back in control of my... Of me, really, years ago I used to drive a push bike for that. Do you have any hobbies? Oh, yeah, of course. Being ADHD and neurodivergent, of course I would have my own set of hobbies. Most of my hobbies are something to do with the sensory side. So, it would be music, it would be food, it would be smells, that means going out into nature. So, wherever the senses are involved, my hobbies are usually in that area. Right. Thank you so much. Mine is cooking and workouts. Oh, yes. Wonderful, wonderful.