 So I'd like to start this evening's events by extending a very warm welcome to everybody for attending the first of our artists speak events for this academic year. My name is Wayne Dooling. I'm director of the Center for African Studies as of this year. So this is my first event of this kind too. And it gives me great pleasure to introduce this event and to introduce our speakers today. I should start by thanking this fantastic collaboration that we have with the School of Arts, so it's a School of Arts, and its collaboration with the Souver Bureau Gallery. And I will hand you over in just a second to one of our participants, Christian, who will introduce our two speakers, Farki Hassan and Najwa Alagheri, who are our artists. So thank you very much for coming, everybody. And thank you, Christian, who will introduce our speakers. Thank you, Dr. Dooling, welcome. And we're very glad to host for the second time in a rather short period of cooperation with your institution. We're very proud and hopefully we'll have many. If you are, I mean, if as a group or individually you are visiting 154 fair next week, from the 14th to the 17th, we will be with many people from our professions. And on the ground floor of Somerset House, we will be at the Stand E5. We are, you are expected. And again, Dr. Nessie, it is much appreciated. This cooperation is useful and precious to us. Thank you. Hello. Hello, everybody. Good afternoon. My name is Giovanni Agustinelli, and I'm gallery manager of Souver Bureau Gallery. And I'm also a student at SOAS postgraduate student. I'm studying a program called Correcting Culture. I would like to start saying that we're very grateful of course and delighted that Farki Hassan has been selected as the first artist for this talk series with SOAS and we are very grateful for this. We thank very much, of course, the Dr. Dwayne Dooling and also a steam and especially Angelica Baskira that made this possible. So thank you again for this. Now I'm going to start quickly. I'm going to introduce you to both panelists, which are Fatih Hassan and Najla El-Ajali. So Fatih Hassan was born in 1957 from Anubian and Egyptian parents. And in 1979, in 1979 he received a grant for studying at Napal Art School, where he graduated in 94. In 88, 1988, he was one of the first African and Arabic Arab artists to be invited at the Venice Biennale. And since then he has been exhibiting in very important illustrious venues like the Egyptian Museum of Fine Art, the Smithsonian National Museum of African Art, Williams College Museum, and many more. His work is also part of an important collection of private public hearing collection like the Victoria Albert Museum, the British Museum, Smithsonian again, and the Metropolitan Museum. I just say a couple of things of Fatih, which for me, Fatih Hassan is a great artist, he's a great pioneer, and of course his artistic parabola is by far from handed, so he's still researching and continues to research. I think that his story is particularly interesting and helpful for us, because he cannot let us understand a bit better about the emergence and establishment of what we can say the global art order that we are living today. So this is actually very interesting, and I'm sure we're going to discuss about this. And Fatih, global artist, why? Because of course for his life, you will see what his life experiences be living in different countries, but especially a global artist because he absorbed the different influences from west to east, from traditional practices to more contemporary practices, and then he kind of combined them and elaborate them in a kind of personal practice, so it's very interesting. And the final I will say about Fatih Hassan, I will say that for me it's like an endless source of experience and stories because sometimes he tells me stories or episodes about the art world, since the 80s, so it's a very important source of experience, and I thank you very much for every time that when he shares these kind of stories and experiences. Thank you. Moving to the second panelist, she's an Angela Elangeli. She's an architect, she has been working as a professional architect for 20 years. In 2012, she founded Noon Arts Project, which is an art foundation, which is focused on shedding lights on the current art of Libya, and try to develop and give it more visibility to this kind of art from this country. And Angela, she's also a curator and she's been organizing many exhibitions in different venues. I'm just going to list a couple here. One is the Benetton Foundation, she made an exhibition, she created an exhibition in 2016 called Libya Project, and then she created another two important exhibition. She made an exhibition called Casa Arabe in Spain, of in 2018 and 2020. One of these exhibition analyzing the Africa phenomenon of pop art in Africa, and the second exhibition, it was more addressing collective memory and personal history is related to Libya. In 2020, Angela also been working with the gallery, with Sugar Boy Gallery, where she created two exhibition waves, which was a collective exhibition with five artists, and soul-taming most recently, which is a solo show of our artists here, Fati Assam. So, I will, just for closing, I would like to thank again SOS for this opportunity, for this webinar, for giving the chance to Fati, who speak to the broader public, and yes, I will say I'll see you all at Somerset House then. Fati and Angela, the floor is all yours. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Thank you so much for SOS for giving us the platform to have this talk with Fati Hassan, and I want to personally also thank Solgheb Well for giving me the opportunity and the chance to get to know Fati, and it was exactly a year ago that I met him, and that's how the journey started. Can we have the slides please, Angelica? It's okay. If we don't have them, it's okay. I'm just going to start the conversation. Oh, there we go. Next one please. Okay, so Fati Hassan's work consists of morphological tapestries of scriptures, narratives, archives of meditative dreams, memories, and alternative cities. The master of his own history, traditional experimentation are clearly in dialogue with, with, when the multiple cultural sources of his unique identity take shape, and become the components of his unique style. Fati is a dynamic creative sat on taming his spirit and wondering nomadic soul through his art. His work pulls the viewer with the bold lines, then the floating text figures and symbols. His articulation onto the canvas is a deep form of poetry. Next please. And now so I'm going to start the conversation with Fati. Fati, can you hear me? Okay, I'm just going to put the question in English first and then I will ask Fati in Arabic. Could you tell us about your first steps as an artist and how was the local art scene in Cairo when you started? And did you get inspired by the work of any Arab or African artist at that time? And then of course if you can tell us the influence, the influence with Italy and how it affected your ways of seeing and thinking. And then of course if you can tell us the influence with Italy and how it affected your ways of seeing and thinking. Okay, hi everybody. The first of all, we have to thank you for Saul's University and thank you for Dr. Wayne Dooling for hospitality, this will be our conference. Thank you for Dr. Wayne Dooling for hospitality, this will be our conference. And the Soul Girl Boil Gallery, Najla, Giovanni, Angelica, thank you so much for all. And I apologize for my weak English language because I am sorry. I apologize, don't feel sorry for me. Thank you, thank you. Now I can respond to the first very important thing for me, they are two important things. Two important things are important for Fati. Cinema is one of the most important things I started with the idea of an artist in my first attempt. And cinema are major parts and integral parts of Fati's beginnings. Yes, reading, yes. I will come in the book on the second question for the cinema, because I was living in central Cairo at that time. It was a very cosmopolitan part of Cairo, which was downtown, it was still a country, not like that. And it was very rich at that time with theater and film and I guess music as well, concerts. And what Fati is saying is his first beginning really with art started with through the book or reading. So I used to be actually I used to work in the local library when I was very young, and that sort of started my journey with with the art and research. And then, okay. And during that time when I was working at the library and looking at books, my first sort of encounter was looking at Italian Renaissance art at that time, and that sort of inspired me. And I was 12, 11 those years. And there was a lot of cinema and sort of watching film was a real culture back then. So across from where I used to live there was cinema. Okay. And, and then your beginnings in Europe, how did Italy influence your way of seeing and sort of thinking. The second question is how did Europe sort of influence your way of seeing art? Okay, I want to go back a little bit to connect to what happened. That's when I got the push to get moving and how did it start? So I used to meet a lot of Egyptian writers in that library. And I used to draw. I didn't study art at that time. I was just, I began sort of just drawing decorations and decorative pieces by myself. And that was the first time I sort of encountered art was at a gallery called Atelier Cairo, and I saw work by Egyptian artists from Alexandria. Do you remember who? Okay, okay. So that was your first time. That was the first encounter with art. I wanted, when I finished high school, I wanted to study film. It was expensive and I couldn't do it. And I went to the Italian Cultural Center in Cairo at that time and I actually asked them, can you let me study art with you? They told me that there are 12 places for scholarship to study. So there was only one placement for to study art in Italy at that time with these different scholarships that were offered from the Italian Cultural Center, and the art was only one. And so you became, you applied. So you filled the space. So at that time they said there was nobody else to fill the space, so they took Fethi and he filled it. So it was, I guess it was meant to be. And luckily enough, when I went to ask for the visa to go to Italy, the Italian counselor at the time had sort of a degree in studying the history of Nubia, which is, you know, Fethi's background. And that somehow opened the gate for me to go and study in Italy. Okay, a next question, a next slide please Angelica. Okay. And then, okay, we go to the next question. Can we go to the next slide. This is just to show how your identity is the is multi layered by all these different cultures that you have sort of lived through or somehow became part of you. Please, Angelica, and you are always mediating between multiple platforms between Nubian Egypt between Arabism and Africa between Africa and the West between spirituality and secularity between poetry and image between the abstract and the little the literal. Is it an intentional form of communicating your identity or did this fluidity evolve out of your diasporic journey. I'm going to ask you in Arabic now. Okay. Okay. I come from a very difficult or complex part in the globe, as Fethi is trying to say he's trying to say that geographically and historically Nubia is quite an ancient civilization. So there is the African connection, the Egyptian connection, and the pre Islamic and then the Islamic connection. And then after the flood of the building of the dam down in Nuba and then house, the, a lot of sort of villages and towns became submerged and flooded we became diasporic and we ended up immigrating to Cairo. And then it was quite a sad journey for a lot of the Nubians who left their homes who lost their homes really to the flood on the building of the dam, where it was quite a difficult completely displaced they were displaced in Cairo. My grandfather was a mayor before the loss of the village and the town that he was you know what's the And then he tried to live in Cairo but he couldn't work so he went back and sadly died straight away in Nubia after that. So you mean as I said the question that he is, do you feel that this issue that happened with the migration and with the change, is it developing? Do you mean the first evolution even when you went to Italy or not? Of course I will tell you because when you are in Cairo you are in Nubia and you sit in a community of tribes and then there are Jews and then there are Arab Muslims and some of them are not Arabs. So what he is trying to say, his identity started to take form really and the cosmopolitan kind of multi-layering of his identity started to take shape when he grew up in Cairo because it was quite cosmopolitan at the time, different religions, different nationalities. Okay, shall we move to the next question? When I went to Italy, what is his saying is that actually his youth and when he grew up in Cairo just before he left to Italy gave him quite a solid kind of foundation in terms of global literature, global culture and film was major sort of media for him that opened his eyes before he left to Italy. At the time, I will ask you another question, I'm going to say it in English first. He is also emphasizing the influence of French-Italian but mainly also the American films I guess in the 1970s Hollywood was quite a major force in the street scene. I mean in the cultural scene in Cairo, especially in film. Okay, next question, how do you gather the elements from your cultural heritage and give it life from its submerged origins and is your use of the symbol, a letter and text, a metaphor for liberation. Okay, I want to say something very important. The culture, the word culture is not about being a language, it is not about being a culture, it is about being an influence, it is about being a language, it is about having a culture that is not about being a language, it is about being a culture, you know the word culture. Okay, next question, how do you gather the elements from cultural heritage and give it life from its submerged origins and is your use of the symbol, the word text, a metaphor for liberation? It's not just a European, American, Arab or African word. I'll tell you the reason, because when you have a country that is under control, and you have books, directors, scholars, and scientific research, these are the people who choose the culture. What Fatih is saying is that the word culture, or the meaning of culture, does not really belong to the African and Middle East kind of psyche and tradition, where I beg to differ here, because culture is relative to invention. But I don't think there was a culture in the African world or in the Arab world. There are very few, but they are very good directors, or if they didn't have them, they wouldn't be able to talk about their culture. So, for example, the percentage is quite low in terms of inventors and sort of inspired kind of creators. And then I want to ask you about the use of rams and letters. Is it an invention that you use as a means to liberate or to express? Why did you start with it? Okay, when I went to Europe and Italy and started traveling, and I saw the work of Italian art and European art, and I went to Milan for example, and I was involved in galleries, art from people from America, from France, from England, from all over the country. So, I knew that I couldn't do anything without it. Okay. What Fatih is saying is that when he was living in Italy and sort of observing all the Western art, he realized that if he is going to be an artist, he does not belong to the Western kind of art scene at the moment. And that's how his use of the letter and the symbol became his tool. So, you say that you started using letters as a means to express. For example, my friends who were with me in the Italian art academy, they used to work with me, and I went to see with them a exhibition of Piet Mondrian, George Gross, Andy Warhol, but we saw a lot of great artists, Tony Gray, Donald Jald, a lot of them. So, when I started working with them, they had an influence from contemporary American art, my Italian friends, and from the American pop art, my pop art was well-known, and they were all artists. So, when I started working with Andy Warhol, and Linky Stein, and Gene Dine, and Jackson Pollock, I said, I don't have any connection with people. I mean, I don't know, I have to take something from the past. So, that actually, when he was there, and he was looking at the sort of the cultural art scene at the time in the 80s, and Jackson Pollock, Mondrian, and all the Western artists, Fathir realized that he has to use his own tools, his own sort of background and his own language. Okay. Sorry, there's something very important. Yes, yes. I even said, I'm not going to take the pharaonic image, because it's also wrong. So, when I was little, my grandfather used to guide me and tell me stories. For me, I didn't want to use the actual Egyptian hieroglyphic, because it's already well-known, but I started to recuperate my memory with what my grandmother used to tell me and her tales. And then, the tales. I said, I have to write the stories she tells. So, I started to write, really, mostly what I had from memory, from my childhood with my grandmother and mother. And that became the triggering point for me using the letter and the symbol. And then, I wrote the story, I'm not an artist, I'm a writer. So, I finished writing the stories, and it didn't hurt me. Then, I also realized that I am not an actual writer in the sense that I'm not going to be writing pieces of literature. So, I started to write bits and pieces of memory, and then, suddenly, those bits and pieces of memory became illegible. That could not be read. And then, I started to do things that I didn't know. So, I started to put all of these subconscious thoughts of what I dreamt about or of what I saw, and put it into the canvas in my own kind of dialect and my own language. And then, sorry, I learned the book. When I read the book, it was called Ronald Barthes. Ronald Barthes, yes. There was an academic professor who said, you have to read Ronald Barthes and you have to read the Blancheau. It was about the disaster, the scripture of disaster. Tell me, do you have to study these people who do the work? So, when I read the old Barthes and the short, they affected me. So, I started to be much more confident using my own heritage in terms of the alphabet and the symbolism. And that became sort of my way of expressing what I wanted to express. Okay, next slide, Angelica, please. Angelica, okay. And we will go to the Nubians now. How is Nubia always in a pivotal position in your work? And then, how do you navigate between different worlds and translate it through your work? How does Nuba always be in a pivotal position in your work? And how do you move between the two worlds and prove it through your art? The impact is very important. Nuba has a matriarchal history. Matriarchal. So, they don't follow men, like Arabs. We, in our old history, when a child was born, they named his mother. The second name. Fatheh wants to say in terms of Nubia, for him, Nubia is an ancient civilization where matriarchal sort of hierarchy is more important than the patriarchal hierarchy. And even naming children, they used to name them after their mom, so they will be said like Hasan Ibn Khadiga, Ibn Fatima, Hasan the son of Fatima. But Nubia is always present in your work, Fatima. I work with art. I started making European culture, but I had to put it in the original culture. Because I can't take part in my work. So, I have to put the ideas of Nubia and Western thinking together, trying to put the two together. What Fatheh is saying, he is trying to integrate between the two cultures, his Nubian culture and the European culture that he was sort of living with and he was studying in at that time. And the next slide, please, Angelika. Okay, I'm going to say this in English. You once said, one advantage of being black is this. In most human tales, they hardly notice you. That way you are safe from humans with only God to judge you, eternal and one. Is this intentional or an intentional philosophy you have developed through your artistic journey? No, of course it is. It's the idea of how you move to the right side that Webster is taking the right side, giving us the right side and you're going to work towards that side. It's the idea of the world. They work for you. Do you think we should be able to do what Nubia wants to do? If we can, this is the problem. You know that's the only less necessary thing you can do. Of course, he wrote our book, and in his book, he wrote Kathleen Gonsharev. He was working in New Museum in America, so he wrote what he said, and he told us that he wrote what I told him. But there is a very important point. I feel it. I feel it. We don't have the history of black men in America. We don't have the same history, a different history. But I feel it. I've been living here for 65 years. I felt that black men should be represented at least three times more than normal women. Okay. What Fatih is saying here, this quote was from a conversation he had with the well known American critic, critic and what he's saying in terms of being black and he doesn't have the same, be black, but it's not the same as being black in the American culture. However, he's saying to be black and to be sort of in the forefront, you have to prove yourself three times more than a white person. A black man has to be a superman in order to make a presence. Yeah, so what he's really saying is that to be a black man in sort of the western cultural sort of or in the western powerful whatever world, this black man or this black person, you know, will have to prove himself and his strength more or less four times than anybody else. I am sorry, I am sorry for this. Lala, don't apologize. I am certain of this. Okay, but the next question, next slide please, okay. And now we look back at your photographic series, and this was done in your early career. And this one is called The Light Man's Historical Footsteps, which has many connotations and hidden factors that reflect the reality of humanity and how history is constantly written and rewritten. This series was made early in your career where you highlighted the dilemma of man's struggle in life and his need to rewrite history. After almost four decades of your artistic journey, are you still rewriting the submerged and drowned silent histories by giving them a space and time? Okay. And the thing I want to say is, I usually dream of the peace. I usually dream of my pieces. This is what Fatih is saying. And I created subconsciously and I see it visually in my dreams. And then what happens in the process? And then what's the process? For most of this. When I did this work, it was the early 80s, it's really influenced by cinema and film. Charlie Chaplin was one of my sort of favorite actors at that time. Basta Keaton. And then how? And I used to love silent cinema, silent films. But the main thing in silent cinema and silent film is movement. But that's not, sorry. But for me, because of the influence of silent films, I wanted to create a piece about the body and its shadow and what is the narrative in between them? Yes. So this is how I initiated this work. But this piece is quite resonant with your new work as well. You're still imprinting your footsteps. What Fatih is saying, stages and beginnings do not really end. So they go around. There are things that develop, and some things you end up going back. So things are, they keep moving. Interesting. There are many, you call them the light man's historical footsteps. This piece is called the light man's historical footsteps. I mean, they're very light. You say it's light. It's not light. It's very heavy. The idea came to me as well, because I was a meditator of the Maharishi and the Yogananda of Hindi. So he says, the man has to be light, so that he doesn't leave a mark. This is relative also to when I was meditating with Indian Maharaj. And it's to do with how you should be light when you meditate in order to evolve and in order to move. Interesting. So you have to leave behind, you have to be light, but at the same time you need to leave a footprint. Is that it? I think I tried to wrap up what you're saying. Okay, next slide, please. Okay, I put three images in your different stages. Your earliest beginnings were with actual words, with solid meanings. And through your journey, the words became the constructed, the letters took on their own shape, becoming their own reality and unique context. Did your signs and calligrams become actual instruments of soul taming? Have you reached spiritual maturity or are you still seeking to navigate newer horizons? Okay, I'm going to say something, it might be a bit difficult. Have your signs and letters become real tools to improve the soul? Will you be able to get to the spiritual destination or have you still been looking for new benefits? Look, I'll say something that might be difficult. Okay, I'm going to say something that might be a bit difficult. Now, I've reached a stage where I don't have a country. I've reached a point now where I do not belong to a place. I feel so... But I feel that I belong to the whole world. So you're a global kind of citizen. Every place you feel that you have a passion for it. I don't have a place. Because if we go back to the history of the country we live in, they will tell us that they don't want us. So we're not just here. Anyone who studies abroad and lives abroad and works abroad, they will tell you that you're abroad. For example, I worked in Nalcahira in 2005. I wrote Fatih Hassan in Italy. So what Fatih is trying to say, through time, he feels completely without a country, really. He's a nomad at heart. Even if he wants to go and move back to Egypt, he would be completely displaced and he will be viewed as a foreigner or an outsider. So, you know... So, at the moment, you're, as they say... You know, I live in Italy, but I don't have a place. I live in Scotland now. I don't know my country in Scotland. But I live in freedom, safety, and everything. There's no problem. Maybe I'll go somewhere else. Yeah, and now I live in Edinburgh and it's, again, I am still a nomad in Edinburgh, but I do not... The important thing is to have a democratic country. You can live in any country. I lived in Germany and I lived in... I went to many places and so on. The important thing is to have a democratic place where you can live without a problem. But, of course, the country... I'm not going to say it's hard, of course, but the Arab countries and the African countries are impossible to feel with the Arabs. What Fatih is saying, he needs a place where he can sort of be liberated in his thinking and in his life. And even though he is an outsider in Europe and in the West, he feels that he can adapt and he has a certain freedom to create. You're saying that in Europe... I can talk about a lot of things, I can talk about them. When I was born in Venice in 1988, when I came back to Egypt, and I went to a village and they all didn't know me at all. No one spoke to me at all, no one. That's why I'm not a nomad. They're the ones who lost, not me. Who are you talking about? Who are you talking about, Fatih? All the people in the middle of art... We're not talking about politics, we're talking about the middle of art. They consider us not from the country, we're foreigners who are going to spread and leave. So you can come and do a lot of things, come and talk with you forever. You're a foreigner, aren't you? Where? In Europe or...? No, in Europe, no. Ah, okay, Fatih... In the Arab world, specifically. So Fatih is talking about... I'm sorry, I have to go to English. Fatih is saying that back in the Arab world, it is quite difficult for an artist of his caliber to be recognized and sort of accepted because he is considered a foreigner. As he's mentioned before, that when he was in a Biennale in Cairo in 2005, they wrote his name and wrote Italian. They did not write Egyptian or Nubian. So I felt that when they put Fatih Hassan, Italian artist or Italy in the Biennale... I was surprised a lot. And this is not the first time. I went to the opera once. There was an opera where I went to the opera. Then they made a circle of artists, and that's how they spoke. So I found them speaking and speaking was all wrong, because I studied art and art in the academy. I found them speaking with friends, and so on. And speaking was all wrong. So you said you were speaking wrong. Because it was all wrong. So one of the artists next to my friend said, I'm going to speak and they said, don't make fun of him, he doesn't know us. We don't talk to him, not from us, not from here. So he's saying once he was at a gathering with artists in Egypt, and there was a discussion where there were some interpretations about some of the facts that were presented, and he complained about it. And then he said they kept looking at him and questioning his presence. And then they just said, oh, you are an outsider. You're a foreigner. So his views weren't really taken seriously at that time. Interesting. But I want to ask you another question. We went somewhere else. When you first started, as you can see in the slide, you started by using the word. And then the word became very fluid. The word became very fluid and it stuck to you, you know? But you made the letters, the words and the symbols and the words and the symbols took a different direction. So you made the words and the signs became actual instruments of soul-taming. The spirit. When we started the exhibition last year, you insisted on using the title soul-taming. So did you reach a stage where you were able to say that you are still at it? The first time I was doing something about Eliboisia visiva. The word crude used to use words very wrong. The word direct. Direct, yes. Like the word truth on the left-hand side means one is in black, one is white, and it's about truth. So there's red and black. Why did you choose the word? I wanted to sort of... My message was to implement the word truth and let it penetrate into people's conscious. Yeah. So even facial, to draw a face, I used to use it as a word. So this is quite interesting because it connects you to the Egyptian kind of hieroglyphic, no? Or the Egyptian language? The sign. It's a combination of several places. From Africa, from Norway, from Egypt, from Arabia, from Islam, from Europe, and all of them. So it's like this. So what Fatih is saying is that it's all linked with all the different sort of cultures, really. Arabic, Islamic, African, and Nubian. And European. So what Fatih is also saying, music is very essential to his work. And you hear a lot of opera. Music, yes. Music and opera, and that sort of also becomes some kind of tool and a way of mediating his memories and arts into the canvas. And also, you said different colors. I mean, sometimes you work has phrases. And sometimes the phrase gets sort of, you know, becomes submerged and it becomes floating on its own. Sometimes the word you don't have would be like a sentence, like you wouldn't have written the series Haram Ali Koum. Directly. Direct, yes. Sometimes it's actual. So when you made the series Haram Ali Koum, the meaning was quite something Haram Ali Koum means shame on you. And it was a very popular series that Fatih did in a long time. And you still, I mean, recently you did some pieces again with the phrase Haram Ali Koum. My question is, is it sort of pointed towards someone? Or is it a reflection of what you feel? The word, I mean, put it, for anyone, who are you? Is it for a person or for... There's no problem with people. There's no problem with communities. So what Fatih is saying, it's not really directed at anybody, but it's directed at society. There's something very important in philosophy that I learned from the books that I read. For example, things about Edmond Jabas, a very famous writer born in Egypt. I met him in Italy. And he was writing very important things in philosophy, in sorcery, and so on. So I felt a lot of my opinions. I went to a book close to my... an Italian book, it's a walk with the fan, it's called Joseph Boyz. I met him, I mean. And it's Lucrezia di Domizzi Doreini. It's called Italian. It's a very important book, a book for her to read. And I talked about three important things. One is to be an artist, you have to have three characters. Three things. The most important thing is freedom. Freedom, yes. The artist must be free. Another thing, the artist must have a sense of humor. Meaning, he must have the strength to do what he thinks. Passion, yes, okay. And the third thing, he must have high intuition. Intuition, okay. But the first one is freedom. Yes. Without freedom, there's no art, actually. But what Fatih is saying is that he read a lot. I mean, he's quite well read. And he was an Italian critic or academic. It's Doreini. What's her name? Lucrezia. Lucrezia Doreini. Doreini, okay. And she wrote a very interesting book that had really sort of influenced his way of creating and of making his art. And three crucial points are freedom and number two, passion and strength. And number three, intuition. And if you do not have these three things, then your message is not going to be really as valuable and as strong and to make a proper kind of impact on the audience. Okay. What Fatih is saying, there are... Exactly, the individual arts, I mean, there are artists and there are people who just draw. They know how to draw. Exactly. And then, I mean, this is quite obvious fact. What he's also saying is that in the Middle East, especially, there is a serious problem with giving titles. And you will find an artist with like... Too many, sort of like, he's a doctor, he's an artist. Just too many titles. A picture. Sorry? A teacher and teacher. Yeah, just too many titles just to initiate grander. Okay. Can you... At this time, all the people are drawing, even the small kids are drawing, all of them are drawing. It's true, it's true. Okay, anyways, we go to the next question. I mean, I think it's one of the last questions that I'm going to sort of bother you with. You have been traveling and living and working in many countries and you have affirmed yourself on the artistic scene as an international artist in a period of transition between the 1980s and the 1990s, where most art critics saw it as the beginning of a postmodern era. How do you perceive the emergence on the global level of art solutions and traditions coming from non-Western countries and in particular from the contemporary African and Middle Eastern art scene? I'm going to ask you in Arabic. You have traveled a lot and lived in many countries and you have affirmed yourself on the artistic field. You are an international artist in a period of transition between the 1980s and the 1990s, where most of the points are the beginning of a postmodern era. How do you perceive the emergence on the global level of art solutions and traditions coming from non-Western countries as a scene in the Middle Eastern and Middle Eastern art scene? And the contemporary art scene that is happening now? I think it's one of the last questions and I have to thank you honestly. I have to thank the United States of America especially the people who are in the research field and the people who are studying literature and the people who are studying art. Why is that? Because I noticed that they are studying art in terms of the person who is doing it or not. They don't have any legal reasons. First, people want a specific person to go and study and they have plans. I went to Williams and they told me that there is a teacher who studies only Arabic and Moroccan art. And a teacher who studies only African and Egyptian art. And she studied in Nigeria and Kenya. That's it. When they work, they turn to the best people present. They work. I have to thank the people who are very important. What Fatih wants to say is that he personally wants to thank a lot of American cultural critics and researchers who really do focus on pursuing artists from not from Western backgrounds to really look at their work and investigate it and provide a very broad critique for it. And that helps the artist to sort of look at new frontiers and also push the boundaries in the Azduk. They don't have legal reasons. They don't have favorites. Do you think really? I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I guess you've been very lucky. What Fatih is saying in the States, he was received well and nobody knew of his art. And he had an incredible kind of positive feedback. And his art was really well received. And that is something that he really wants to highlight. And for the Arab countries and the Arab countries, Shantousa has to do three or four very important things. And for... There should be points, there shouldn't be points. There shouldn't be points. What Fatih is saying, the serious problem of what's happening in terms of the contemporary art scene or the art scene and the cultural scene in Africa and mainly the Mena region is the lack of critical thinking. But I think, and I believe that there is a movement at the moment, Fatih. And Fatih is also saying that there must be some freedom of the word. Which is, yeah, I understand that it is a bit problematic. And constricted. And that will, I mean, if you don't have proper critique and proper research into what artists are doing, or then that will definitely keep you back and not make you succeed as an artist and for your message to be passed on. Another point that Fatih is pointing out is the lack of written critique of what's happening in terms of Arab art and in Arabic especially. I mean, there could be some publications done in English or other languages, but the serious problem is the lack of publishing sort of research and work even about the journeys of contemporary art or modern art. But I think that I mean, I think that there are people who are trying. Yeah, also... Also he criticizes the way artists are supported or how their work is highlighted. But I think in the Middle East, but I think the art world is not very easy as well in Europe. It's a percentual, it's a nisab. The nisab is 25% but there are 90% not the same as the nisab. Because I'm an important nisab. Nisb, but the percentage of what? The percentage of what's happening in democracy is 5%. For example, in Saudi Arabia, or Morocco, or Egypt, and so on, there are 90% but not the same thing. Because the nisab is important. They have thousands of copies, you have one, but you also have thousands of copies. That's not possible. So what Fatih is saying, there is a lack of... Again, he stresses the problem with the lack of... The lack of critics, and that the percentage is quite low compared to what's happening in the West. I think... But I think it's because of also education, maybe. Education as well. This is a serious issue. Education of the people, and of the people, and of the free people. All of this gives rise to the nisab. So this all contributes to the lack of... Yes, not much freedom and not a lack of education as well. All contribute to some kind of redundant thinking and redundant cultural scene. It's not available in the world, especially in the East. There's no gathering. We're sitting together and doing good things. It's impossible. There's no gathering. It's hard. Yes. They have to do what they do, because they don't know what to do. So there is a serious problem also with teamwork. That is... That's sort of also accepting that... Maybe acceptance between artists. So, you know, that other artists are in the same kind of... What do you mean? Level as one artist is. That's a big problem. There's something, for example, for Egypt, the country I know more about. Outside, scholars, artists, and everything. Nobody knows them in Egypt. They say, why are you coming here? You can't even go back and say, I might help you. You say, no, you can't come with us. Yes, there is also this lack of accepting the diasporic kind of existence, more or less. If somebody from the diaspora goes back to the Middle East, there's a very difficult... I don't know, a difficult way of taking them back in into the society and to the fabric. But I think that's because when someone comes out of their place, it's over, when the fish comes out of its... No, they don't do that. Then, why do we hate them? Because we hate to let people know where they're going, how they're moving, how they're working. Not like now, they all look at Instagram and they all click. I mean, they all look at Instagram and they all click. And then, they all click and they all click and they all click. So, I think that's why Salata is not known from... So, he's also stressing the problem with social media at the moment. They all look at it together. One of them is a philosopher. And how a lot of artists are emerging artists, or artists who are supposed to be well known in the Arab world, there is a serious problem with copyrights and how people sort of just open the social media and, more or less, steal each other's concepts. I mean, they steal the idea, not just the cake. You said that there are no points, all of them are in pieces. Because, yeah, there isn't light that is shed on what is happening in terms of what artists are doing. So, you end up with, I guess, a lot of, I mean, artistic borders are being sort of, you know, crossed and people are just have the freedom and the ability to copy and paste, really. That's... We need different points, different points. Not one person speaks in art, one draws and writes and makes a book. We need different points. They do studies and see who is in Morocco, who is in the Arab world, who is in Africa, who is gathering people. That's it, isn't it? It's... yeah. But what are we going to do? There's a serious lack of cultural language in terms of the arts. That's what you're saying. And most of it is commercial. I mean, it's all about money. There's a lot of money. Yeah, I mean, right now, we have good opportunities. There's social media, there's money, and so on. People need to do something important, not just like that, but to create a voice. So, you feel, Fatih feels that there are some people who just, in the art scene at the moment, become famous for the, I mean, it's popular culture, isn't it? But it's the same in the West, I believe. You know? I think that the same thing in the West, if there's a group of artists who define who is good and who is not, there is a problem there. The difference between the West and the Middle East is that the West, when it comes to art, the state protects it. So, artists, America has a lot of artists who protect the country, protect it, and protect it. Yeah. The other country says, who are you? Who are you? Who are you? That's what it's all about. Yeah, exactly. Anyways, we're going to see if we can have some questions from the audience. We'll see if there are any questions from the audience at the moment. I want to say something simple. Yes. I'm sorry, but I'm a bit excited. No, yes, go ahead, please. But this is important, I mean, I don't have any problems with the other artists. Yeah. What Fethi is saying... I don't have any problems with the other artists. Fethi is saying he really wants to highlight this for future artists and future generations coming out from the region. Sorry? I'm speaking for the young people who are coming and who are studying art, who are still young. That's right, you're right. So that they know their way better. Yeah, so this is one way of pointing out means of providing more critique for emerging artists and working artists at the moment. I'm going to see if I can find the questions. Okay. There's a question from Marta Masioli. And she says, in your earlier work, there was a great attention on the spiritual aspect of colors and texture. How this aspect in this latest series that is so much more articulate is evolved. I mean, the shapes of the saints and the souls are evolved. Now that the texture is so much more complicated, why? Why is it much more complicated? And do you still pay attention to the alchemical meaning of colors? And if yes, how it has evolved? Okay, I'm going to try to see if I can ask you this question in Arabic. She asks, in your work, most of you have a spiritual relationship and the colors, when you use the colors, I think it's like gold and also the texture. I don't know. So does this have to do with the last work you did? And how did the colors take your journey in your work? So she asks about the role of color and the spiritual role in your work. And how did you take, as you say, as if you were doing something chemical, like chemistry? Okay. Did you understand the question? Yes, I understood the question. Okay. I'm from Tufliti, that I used to call Nuba a land of gold. Nuba means gold. Okay, Fathih is saying the word Nuba means gold. Okay? I'm used to it when I was young, when I lived in Nuba. Nuba used to have a farm and then a desert. There was a desert in the desert. Okay, what Fathih is saying is that in Nuba, in those days, as he recalls, there were areas that were cultivated and areas that were a desert. That's what I do when I love the space, the empty space. Fathih, what Fathih is saying is that I love to work with empty landscapes and empty spaces because in the desert, you cannot hide. And that's like a metaphorical. So there's only you in the desert, only you and your soul. In Venice, when I did my work in Venice, most of my work was with the spiritual journey and the clear space, like in the desert. In Venice, when I first exhibited, and I met an American called the Don Cameron, he loved my work because he said it was interesting and it's new in the sense how he sort of worked with vacant spaces. Also, the Indian kind of spiritual, meditative concept also is very important in my work, where I used to watch a lot of Indian cinema as well in Cairo and that somehow gave me this kind of translutic sort of light aspect in my work. Next question, before we leave, what is the specific effect or contribution of Arabic calligraphy to Roman or Asian calligraphy in terms of hysterical, aesthetic graphics, and imports of power? The question is, what, I don't know, the Arabic word. The Arabic word or the Arabic line and its relationship with the Roman and Asian letters and how hysterical, aesthetic... Do you think that they have a relationship with power, power, authority? I don't write, I don't make a mistake. I calligraphist. I don't make a mistake in writing or writing. I don't make a mistake in writing I don't make a mistake in writing and I make an obsession in the war. Obsession after the word. What Fatih is saying, he's not really a calligraphist. What he does, he uses the movement of the word and the movement of the letter where it takes its own form and shape and that's how it becomes a means of power in his work. The Arabic line has rules and I don't write with it. But because Arabic calligraphy has proper structures and I don't do that, I am much more... You have more freedom. I have freedom because when I write, I do things like I always teach the boys in Ziva. I always teach the boys in Ziva. Viziv, Viziv, Viziv, Viziv, Viziv, Viziv, Viziv, Viziv. I mean, he used to call the boys in Ziva. I can't ask Angelica, she knows. Poetic, Poetic, Poetic, Viziv. Poetic visuals. Okay, I know. Visual, poetic. Poetic visuals or poetic visuals. What Fatih is saying, he likes to use the movement of the letters and the movement of the words as a way of visual poetry. And I guess that's what you have done, Fatih. Sorry, I'm going to talk about some of his stories. I don't want to interrupt you. What Fatih is saying is that his letters and his sort of words take on their own form and shape and then they become their own sort of visual poetics or visual poetry. And I'm going to leave because we only have five minutes to go. So I'm going to wrap up the talk. I mean, we can talk forever. I know I'm going to talk about Fatih when we start and finish. So I'm going to end by saying thank you very much and thank you for taking part. And thank you to SOAS and thank you to Solgabweil. And I'm going to end up with this kind of little note that Hassan's tapestries can be experienced as archival material containing delicate traces of his Nubian culture and its place in the Arab world where Arabic letters intersect and blend into symbols where in some instances letters and words sharply cut through Nubian-African heritage suggesting a struggle and a fight for domination and to resurface from being submerged and drowned. I want to thank everybody, Angelika especially, for sorting this lovely conversation. And Chris, have a last word. Fatih is going to say something. Let's go. Fatih, do you want to say something? If Angelika has a question, I can answer it in Italian. Angelika, if you have a question, you've got four minutes if you want to ask Fatih a question or Giovanni. Thank you Fatih. I think Giovanni has a very interesting question. The relation between chess and art. Oh, yes. And thank you. Thank you, everybody, again. Thank you so much. It was a very, very interesting question. You translate your... Angelika, translate Italian-English. Go ahead. Let's do the Italian now. Yes, the relation between art and... Oh, gosh, chess. I've been living abroad too long. Chess. Chess in the game of chess and art. The relation... Yes, it's a very important relation. It's a very important relation, because in chess there are rules. The rule of chess is that you have to show each other. You have to have a strategy. You can't play without a game plan. You can translate, if you like. Okay, I think I'm going to try not a great translator myself. Basically, yes, I think he says something around the way in which the chess board games move and are selected in relation to art. Is that... Yes, it's important that you also know the opponent's plan that goes ahead. If you don't know the plan, he moves, you don't move at all. Okay, yes, it's more about knowing your enemies, knowing the plan of your enemy in order to make up your own strategy. I think that... You think about art too, because if you study the history of art well, when you go to work, you have a view, a view of what you're doing. When you work, you're aware of that, it's very important. Okay, very interesting. Yes, he's also talking about the ratio between theory of art and being an artist. How knowing about history of art and theory of art can help an artist as well in terms of reflecting on their own work. He's talking about how being aware of your art environment and the different way in which art is theorized as well, or history of art experts and academics, in fact, even here in Zoas, how this is all connected within the world of art and how an artist has to be aware of art as well as arts within us, literatures and music and film, and all sorts of creative arts. I think that's what you're starting to say. Many times I came up with the idea of paintings, because I read a book. For example, I read a book by Bamuco, or Pirandello, or Pasolini. I get the idea of doing a job, even though I'm African. But it's important that, because it cleanses me, it cleanses the defect of the thought, it's very important. Absolutely. Okay, I don't want to take over from natural world. It's good that we managed to bring some Italians in as well, because exactly, Fati, as he said, he has a very strong Italian background and obviously bringing together North Africa, Middle East, Sub-Saharan Africa, and so I think it's been really, really, really interesting, also in terms of how we use the languages today. I think it's been, yes, Nachela, you've done a fantastic job. I hope so. And this is always a challenge, and people are always scared of trying to use different languages, isn't it? There's always this idea of, well, it's not going to be possible, or it's going to be, but actually, and maybe I was as well a little bit like that, but actually today you've really taught me that we can use, when we're talking about multiple identities, we should really try to use multiple languages. It's a difficult one. It's not easy. It's difficult. I'm sorry, because I am not speaking good English. No, no, no. Don't apologize. No, I wasn't saying that. Another moment after six months, maybe, I missed it. Anyway, no, no, no, you're doing fine. Your art speaks for itself, Fethi. You don't need to apologize for the English that you speak. But I also want to just, on behalf of the gallery, please come if anybody is available in London. Fethi's work will be exhibited also at the 154 Contemporary African Art Fair. And again, I want to thank everybody who gave us this opportunity to be able to speak more with Fethi and his work. I mean, it was quite general. I mean, the thing with Fethi's work, you can be much more specific if you want to be, but that's like on another occasion, hopefully. I want to thank Sohas, Jaleeka, and the head of, I forgot the name. Sorry, I apologize sincerely. And I want to thank you very much. And I want to thank Christian for actually asking me to go and meet with Fethi last year. It was exactly in October last year in lockdown. I went just before lockdown. I went and I spent a few days with Fethi getting to know him and to know his work. And now, you know, I am much more sort of aware of what he's done and achieved and much more intrigued and fascinated, but by the way of how he sort of achieves his art. And yeah, thank you very much. And if you get a chance, please go and check the work at the 154. And hopefully we'll see more of Fethi's work. Thank you. Thank you so much, Fethi, for Dr. Wain Wolling, for a Seulgal Bohr gallery. My name is Christian, I'm the Giovanni, Najla, and Jaleeka. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks. Bye-bye, everybody. Thank you for coming to the attendees. Thank you. Thank you so much.