 My name is Anzo Ked, a storyteller from Nipsing, the first nation, from the Crane clan of the Shabgizhik family, also of the Nishnabek nation. My English name is Perry McLeod, Shabgizhik. I work for Nijan Sinanik, Child and Family Services. I am the manager of cultural services at the agency. So I told you a little bit about the program or the research that we're doing. So it's a very broad question and I can go in depth if you prefer, but from your perspective, what is Indigenous education to you? Indigenous education used to be experiential learning where you learned from doing and watching, listening. It wasn't a lot of conversation, although there was that, but it was more about experiencing what you were learning about. Today it's a balance of both experiential learning and intellectual learning, so you're combining or balancing Western style of learning, classroom, lecture, technology, along with that experiential learning of doing, learning through being immersed in the subject that you're learning about. So from your perspective, what knowledge do you think is important to pass on to current and future generations? Well, that's a pretty broad question. In terms of the education style? Indigenous education, so whether that be what you put forth or what knowledge should be. Well, two things, that if it's Indigenous education, that it be a balance of experiential learning and intellectual learning, that there's always a balance of that. And that's the first part, that there always should be, you know, out of the classroom learning, there should be learning where they're doing and learning through that, but also that every person has their own learning style. So it has to be more catered to the student as well, each person learns in their own way. So, you know, and Indigenous education that was acknowledged, that was taken into consideration. So it's kind of looking at it as a collective, but also looking at it as an individual learner. So that's something that I think is important. And I guess the third thing is that Indigenous education should not be only for Indigenous students, it needs to be for all students, so that non-Indigenous students can learn about the history, the ways, the thinking, the worldview of Indigenous peoples. So there's a better understanding between the two. I think Indigenous people, through education, have learned a lot about Western worldview, but there's been a lack of that Indigenous worldview being learned by the non-Indigenous learner. So in what ways do you personally, as a knowledge keeper elder, what do you feel like you pass on through that, through the knowledge that you carry? Well, I can, you know, as a, we're all teachers and learners at the same time, you can only really teach what you know. So for me, I try to share my experience and what I've come to know and what I've come to learn to whoever I'm sharing that with, but also listen to learn myself from their experience, what they've learned, maybe, you know, pick something up from that as well. I forgot what the question was. In what ways do you pass on the knowledge that you carry? Yeah, and so what I do is I try to make every time I'm doing some kind of exercise in teachings or whatever it might be that I make it an experiential learning. So I have the ones who are sitting with me do something, not just sit and listen to me talk or, you know, that they share as well, but, you know, as an example, you know, learning about the medicine wheel. There's a exercise or a session that I do where you make, we make, we sit and we make medicine wheels and you make your medicine wheel. You put yourself in the wheel where you are physically, where you are emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and you put your family in it, put your life in there in the different parts of your life as an infant, as a youth, as an adult, maybe as an elder or moving to that. When I work with people, rather than just talk about the wheel, I try to take them through it, using their experience, their life, so they really get the feel for what that medicine wheel is about or at least get some glimpse of it, some taste of it. So for me, that's, I find people learn better when they experience things and just intellectually reading a book or listening to someone talk. I find that maybe some pick up more, but I find everybody, when you experience, when you go through an experiential type of learning that you pick up more, you have a better understanding. So that's what I try to do. So look, thinking, when we're thinking about Indigenous education, is there any specific type of like story or teaching that you feel is not only important for generations to understand, but for your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren, that you want them to be able to know and hear about and live through? Well, that's easy. That's the creation story. For, you know, every nation has a creation story, has their own creation story. We have ours. It, in that story, it has everything, everything that we, as Nishinaabe, as Indigenous people, that we believe, that we, that we carry, that we learn, everything is in that story. So that's, in that one story, all other stories exist, but that's the first one. That's the one story that all Indigenous people should know is their creation story because that, you know, that, that's the beginning. That's where things start. That's where thoughts start. That's where everything began. And so it's important to know that story, know a version of that story, because it teaches us about ourselves, about why we think the way we do, why we behave the way we do, why we are the way we are. And so to me, that's the most important story to learn. And as Indigenous people, that's how we passed on our teachings, was through storytelling. We didn't have computers or paper to write on, although we did, you know, have scrolls and things that we did document. But overall, we shared and passed knowledge through storytelling. And within those stories were the teachings, were the beliefs. And that's how we learned as well, was through storytelling. So to me, the creation story is the one to, the first one, everyone should have some, some knowledge of. There's an option to share the story if you like, or we can bypass it. If you feel comfortable or... If I can remember how it goes all together. Let me see, I'll give it a shot. The story goes that while in our creation story, we like to call them chapters or fires. And they're the different stages of creation when it began and where we are today and how we got here, how we got to where we are today. The story itself, when told properly, takes two or three days to tell. So I'm not going to sit here for a couple of days telling it. I'll give you a short version of it. But it was said that the way Anishinaabe or Indigenous people believe is, it's our spirituality is not a religion. It's a way of belief. It's a way of living. It's a connection to creation. And so the creation story kind of helps understand it in that way. And it goes by these chapters or fires. And it was said, the very first fire in the beginning, the very first, before there was anything, before there was the universe, the world, before there was anything. And the thought of creation came to him, the idea of creation, the vision of all of this, what we see around us, what we live in today, came to him. And it came as a spark, as a flash, was that first fire. And it's like that thought that comes into your head when you get an idea. There's like a spark. Scientists call that the Big Bang. When the Big Bang happened was that thought. And when that thought happened, you know, that explosion in space, all of creation began to materialize. So that's how Western or that's how science looks at it. Ours was that first thought. And that was the first fire. After that spark, after that thought came, then it was the second fire. And that was light. So that was all the creation from that spark, all the stars, the suns in all of the universe lit up, lit up all of creation. And that was the second fire. The third fire was the four directions, time and space. In order for the physical world to exist, we need time and space. We need a physical space. And we need time in order to walk through that physical realm, to move through it. The fourth fire was the twinness, the balance of creation, the night and day, the male, the female, the fire, the water, all of that balance needed to be here for the physical world to exist. It was balance required. The fifth fire, the fifth fire was the earth. After everything was being made, the creator needed a place for his thoughts of what the world was to look like. He needed a place for it to bounce off of, to send it to. So he began to mold the earth, our mother. So he created all the lakes and all the streams and everything, but nothing was alive yet. He just wanted that place to begin, to where life would begin. And the sixth fire, the sixth fire was life. It was blowing when he took a Mika shell and he blew. After everything was made, he blew and created life. Life began to move. The rivers began to flow. All of the creatures began to come alive. All of life began in the earth. And the seventh fire, the seventh fire was the human race, was us. After everything was created, after everything was perfect, we were placed here. Four colors, four children were placed here, the yellow, the black, the white, and the red. Each one were placed on the earth and sent off into different directions on the earth to multiply, to take up that space on the earth, to begin to live and take care of this place. The last one that was lowered was the little red child, indigenous child. That little child, when the child was lowered, kept coming back to the Creator. The Creator would send him off and he kept coming back. He wouldn't leave. Finally, the Creator said, I'm going to give you a job. And I have this gift. I have this gift I want to give you to do that job. And it was the gift of tobacco. It was that first tobacco, that medicine that was passed to us. And the Creator asked that little child to take this tobacco as a gift, as an offering to take care of this place, to help your brothers and sisters, those other colors, to help them. And that little child, wanting to do a good job, took that tobacco and accepted that. Which is why, as indigenous people, we're very close to the earth. We're very close to the Creator. We never want to leave the Creator. We never want to be too far from creation. And so that gift of tobacco was that very first offering. And so by honoring that gift, when we ask someone of something, we always offer them that tobacco from that first gift we receive. And that first medicine we receive. We also offer that to others to help do the work that needs to be done. That version of the creation stories, there's many versions. There's many creation stories. And if ever asked which creation story is true, they're all true. All creation stories are true. They're true because it's not the words that describe the story or the story itself. It's what's in the story. The teachings in it, in each story, is what is constant in all creation stories and is what is important. So each nation carries their creation stories. We have ours. All these creation stories should be the first thing that all children are taught when they come into this world, because it helps them understand where they come from. And in part, what part of their purpose is here to take care of this place and to find their space, find their path through the physical world, so that they can honor that Sama, that tobacco, that the gift of life, the gifts that have been placed here on the earth. So that's that's my version of the creation story that that I that I know. Each time I tell it, I tell it different. Each time I hear it, I hear different. The words might vary, but the spirit of the story is the same. The gifts in those stories, in that story is the same each time. It's just told a different way, a different language, a different time, but it's the spirit is constant. Going back to topic of Indigenous education, what do you what do you envision for Indigenous education for the next 10 years? What I envision and what I hope are two different things, but my hope and my vision, I see somewhat coming together. I see Indigenous education first of all being taught by Indigenous people, being written, being the curriculum, the all of that. I see the stories, the ceremonies, the teachings being a part of that curriculum. I see more of that. It's part of what I hope to see it continue to go in. I hope to see Indigenous education become mainstream education so that it's not just for Indigenous learners, it's for all learners, because in order for all those four children to work together to get along, to understand each other, we have to share each other's stories. We have to understand what instructions each of us were given by the Creator so that we can work together. So I see Indigenous education as a priority, whether it is that or becomes that. I don't see, but my hopes is that it continues on the path that it seems to be going on, where we are the caretakers of our own education, our own history, our own stories, and that we're able to pass it on in a proper way and that it continues to be shared by us and continues to grow and find its place. Are there ways or methods that you think we as both myself, researcher, future educator can help support that vision? Well, I think a big part of it is getting back to the land. Our mother is our first teacher, and I don't mean just when you're born, because that is true. Your mother is your first teacher. Our mother and the earth is our first teacher. We need to get back to more land-based experiences and land-based learning to really, I think, engage and learn that Indigenous perspective, Indigenous education. It's not just intellectual, it's not just in the classroom, it's not just internet and Google. It's experiencing things. It's being out on the land and the water, so I hope that Indigenous education continues to include that more, finding a way to do it, that engages the student that reconnects the learner to the land, to the water, to creation, because that's where the real learning happens, I think, anyway.