 Good morning. Welcome to this session dedicated to discussing and addressing the key challenges related to the working condition in the performing arts. I'm really happy to be here with you today in the context of this great European theatre forum to address such an important issue. It is and has always been, of course, a major issue for the artist and the cultural professionals working in the sector. Every aspect related to the working condition, how to enter this very attractive field, how to make a living of my art, how to combine personal and professional life. And of course, as we go through unprecedented crisis that impacts so violently the performing arts sectors across Europe and the world, how to survive the current crisis. So as mentioned in the introductory text to this session, the cultural and creative sectors have been increasingly recognized at the level in the past years for this significant contribution to the various fields of social life, economic development and international relations. And today amidst the COVID crisis, it is a high moment to acknowledge that the vitality and sustainability of cultural and creative sectors stems from the well-being, the freedom and the integrity of the people professionally engaged in artistic and cultural activity. As we know, support measures have been taken by various member states amidst the pandemic and national legal structures protecting the status of cultural professionals exist in some countries, but they do vary widely from country to country. And the current situation runs the risk of creating even bigger gaps between the European performing arts ecosystem and to undermine the potential for cross-border collaboration further in the months and years to come. Therefore, we believe it was a very high moment to discuss the issue at European level and also to explore the possibilities of a new action on working conditions of artists and cultural professionals. So this is what this session is about and I've been asked to guide you through it. And my name is Daphne Tepper and I work for Unimei, the division of Uni Europa representing workers in the media entertainment and art sectors, mostly the professionals working behind the stages and sets. This session will last two hours and it will be organized in three key moments. First, we will hear from artists and cultural workers on their experiences on the ground. Then we will exchange with a professional organization in order to understand and highlight the main challenges and issues relating to the working conditions in the performing arts sector. And finally, we will exchange with EU policy makers and member states representatives on the possibilities of EU level actions. So first, let's hear from the professionals and let's play the video. The main object. Hello, my name is Angela Ferenda. I work with Club Gaen Roni in Groningen, the Netherlands. Hi, I'm Ingrid Franke. I'm an artist and dramaturg living in Brussels and working in Belgium and Borot. Hello, my name is Florentina Horthinger and I'm an Austrian choreographer based in Vienna. Hello, my name is Sana and I work as a wardrobe manager on Skåne's Dance Theatre in Marlemö, Sweden. Hello, my name is Konrad Michalak and I'm an actor. I work in a public municipal theatre in Łódź, which is the third most populated city in Poland. So the main obstacle for me as a cultural worker and the thing that I find most difficult with working as I do is to find a balance between my work life and my personal and family life. Before, when I worked for TV and films, the main thing was that you could never find employment that was longer than like a year. And you also had to travel a lot and you had to be away a lot and if you have kids, that's always a problem. So I'm very lucky now, even though there's a pandemic going on, we have been able to find work at Skåne's Dance Theatre. There are about 30 actors employed in my theatre, but only a few of them are lucky to be performing these days. Having a full-time job contract gives you this basic financial security. Every month you get a salary, which is usually a bit higher than the national minimum wage. For performing, you get extra paid. Before Corona, you could double or even triple your basic salary with the remuneration you got for performing. Every actor used to perform 6, 10, even 15 times a month and now we are happy if we have even one show in a month. For me, the biggest thing about this career is the fact that it is so bright and so short that it becomes quite a big thing to think of your life afterwards. In the Netherlands, we are fortunate enough to have a system, which is called the Olm's Holdings Fund, so that in the end of your career, if you have accumulated a certain amount of premiums, you can access funding for your retraining and reeducation for your second life, in a way, which is very hard to think about, especially in the beginning of your career, but then also during, because you're supposed to feel very passionate about another kind of life after you've spent most of your life working on even getting this career. Yeah, I would say my work was always very international. I studied in Holland, I've been community there, I've been community that I am connected to in Berlin, in Switzerland and so on, but also I think it's essential for the work that it is produced internationally somehow, which always has been tough, of course, because people need to gather at one place, so that means like accommodations need to get covered, and residences need to be found all over the place. What has been difficult in my career is obviously moving around, living out of a suitcase. It hasn't been, for the past six years, I've been able to shoot roots out, which is quite nice and lovely. I have a dog now, which is unheard of. Yeah, it's not so much that I was moving around because I couldn't stay at places where I worked, but it was more that I was like searching for a place that I could thrive in, like a plant. And I finally found one, so I'm very fortunate about that. The thing I like about the mobility is that you get to satisfy curiosity about people, about places, and you meet so much fun and amazing people when you're away. And they can also come to us, so that's even more amazing that I can still meet them, but I don't have to go away as much. The main challenges I face in my work are combining several jobs with different levels of involvement and different timelines. In order to survive as a self-employed artist, you can count that I always have five to seven work engagements running simultaneously. This can go from teaching to working on my own projects, working as a dramaturg for others, writing jobs, and smaller invitations, just as this one. Due to the COVID pandemic, this problem actually got worse. Because next to taking on the jobs and estimating whether or not I can combine them, there is now an added element of speculation. Will this job actually happen? In the past, getting a full-time job contract in the theatre was one of the main goals of fresh graduates. Nowadays, young actors prefer to be freelancers, which gives them more freedom. Most of them migrate to Warsaw, where they compete with other freelancer and non-freelancer actors, younger and older, for the roles in theatres, TV, film, commercials, dubbing, etc. When the coronavirus broke, all the freelancers immediately lost all of their income. They woke up not knowing what the upcoming months will bring them. All the film sets were cancelled, the rehearsals were suspended. Of course, we received a little help from the government, but we don't know what is going to be in the next month. So Corona hit us, of course, really hard. We had just been in the middle of a very busy touring schedule of my show Tants. Plus, we had just premiered a week before the lockdown, another show. That was chopped off right away. In total, we kind of had a loss throughout the summer of 40 shows in total. And I complete a break in our income. Because of course, the summer period is usually really our most busy touring period. It's where all of the summer festivals happen. Of course, a part of these festivals and of these performances, they got officially postponed. So we didn't see much money there as in compensations. It was postponed to two-twenty-one, even to two-twenty-two. So there is not that much that we get from that. Plus, there is a bit of a hope that it will happen in the future. We have not had to cancel any performances yet. Of course, that is still on debate, but we have two more stage performances left of our latest piece. That we are doing on Malmö Opera on the big stage. And we're performing for 50 people that is placed throughout the seating area with a large amount of space in between. So it feels safe. And it's safe for dancers. And our company has been very good at informing everyone about the situation and how we can handle everything. So the whole company was tested. And if you have symptoms, you stay at home and you do a test and you can't come back to work until you have received answers on your test. And if the test is negative, then you stay at home until you've been well for 48 hours. And then you can come back to work. But if the tests were positive, we haven't fingers crossed. Not had any positive results in our company yet. Then everyone that has been in contact with that person needs to stay at home and they need to do a test and they need to do another test within the incubation time. So I think that the company has very good strategies for how we would handle a positive result within the company. And I think that everyone is taking very good care of themselves and being respectful to others. I'm on a contract. I used to be a freelancer, also not only around Europe but around the world. And I'm very grateful to have a contract now because it comes with a lot more safety, especially in these weird times of on and off lockdowns. We are incredibly fortunate to have devised a show that can still run through a partial lockdown so we don't have more than 30 people visiting the show at a time. And I'm filming right now in the venue where we are about to perform a premiere tomorrow. Corona's been difficult. We have devised an online platform for our work. So all the smart heads got together and we designed a website called nighthotel.org where we can keep on presenting our work also in the future. And I think this will continue even post COVID eventually. It's just kind of the sign of the times to move things online or to think of your work in online aspects as well as in person, which is such a parent part of a dance career, live performance. Everybody was kind of really depending on their individual emergency funding in their countries, which I have a cast from UK, I've cast from Portugal, from Germany, from Netherlands, from Belgium, from Holland, from Switzerland, from all kinds of places really. And we could really compare how individual countries treat their artists and some of us, they just didn't get nothing. They just got like governments that told them to change their job finally. So, yeah, that was tricky. That was tricky for a lot of us. And we started touring again slowly in August with like venues, like some of our sealing companies that could afford to really quarantine us for a decent period of time and afford all of the testing to comply to the regulations and so on. So we could count on our fingers the venues that could do stuff like this because, yeah, at the moment we really want to get tested everywhere and yeah, not a lot of venues are experienced in doing this in a proper way, I would say. But we did have shows in Holland in September and also in Switzerland and we are preparing to have shows now in Belgium in two weeks. But it's a little bit of a gamble. I mean, right now it gets harder and harder again to cross borders so already in the last month it was always a little bit of a praying that everybody gets over borders. So this is where I have my performance tonight. The capacity of this venue is about 400 seats. Due to the government regulations, we are only allowed to let 25% in, which is about 100 spectators. But the show tonight sold only 50 tickets. Why? Firstly, because people are afraid to go out. Secondly, because many shows get cancelled and people are never sure if the performance is going to happen. So usually they buy the tickets just before they go to the show. And why are the performances cancelled? Because two little tickets are sold in advance and it becomes unprofitable. So do you see this vicious circle that we're in? Welcome back. Thank you so much to Sana, Angela, Frarentina, Conrad and Ingrid for their insight. I think so much was said already and so much was said from the people really going through this reality. So I'm really grateful to have their voices with us today as it set the tone for our session, I believe. So before we continue the discussion, let me inform you that through this session, those watching in Zoom are invited to send their questions to the speakers using the Q&A box. And those watching the live stream can type their questions in the chat and the forum team will pass them on to me. So we will take your questions after the first round of exchange with our next panelists. So let's start the second sequence of our session. We'll start with Morten. Good morning, Morten. You are the managing director of NTO, the association of Norwegian theaters and orchestras, which members include the major Norwegian public funded theaters, orchestras, operas, dance companies and music ensembles. You are also the current president of Pearl, the European Trade Federation of Performing Arts Organization. So thank you very much for being with us today and I'd like to start with a question. A lot was said by the colleague just now, but can you highlight for us some of the specific features of the sector and their impact on employment patterns? Good morning, Europe, from a gray day in Norway. Well, big question. That's a big, big question, but I'll take for granted that we have a professional audience out there that we are people from the business, from the branch we know we talk about. And of course, then the short words, it's complex, it's innovative, it's diverse. So the trick is to encourage innovation and secure traditions at the same time. And as we are going to talk about today, secure the individuals as workers and rights. A special feature, of course, for our secretaries that large parts of European cultural life has been and it still is dependent on public financial support. It obviously makes us particularly vulnerable for political change and for economic downturns, cyclical dependence, in other words, which in principle makes us also dependent on good, in the bottom of this good protective laws and a good understanding of the arms length principles, just like as the first and best principle. Then we are, of course, as was pointed out by this beautiful opening session here, a very international workforce, a mobile, we are mobile travelers, this regarding maybe some of the language barrier for actors. The rest of us, the rest of you out there are flexible and competent to work anywhere. We are, in a way, family as we very much point out in good times. And some of you out there travel the world and we need that. But most of us, even artists, spend most of our working life locally. Let's not forget that either. That also has to be taken into account when we discuss working conditions. And then this wonderful word, flexible, I mean, you can use it in any way. You know, we are flexible, but it's also just a nice way to say not permanent employees. The development, as you all know, in the last 30, 40 years has been towards more freelancers, of course, relatively fewer permanent employees. And there are many reasons for it, which I hope we can talk about. There are artistic practices, of course. I mean, the way we work, and that's good, a diverse way of producing. It's also a large increase all over Europe in educated artists, educated people in the art business, which is both good and a challenge. The surplus of talent is obviously good, but the fight for jobs is a challenge. And we have seen huge growth in festivals and events, and we have seen a reduction in public support, especially since the financial crisis of 2008. And all in all, it's even without the COVID-19 situation, it's already a challenging, demanding situation for the social partners and the artists and the unions and the individuals. But until we were hit by the pandemic, we were a secretary in what I would describe as exciting growth. If you are talking about cultural life in the broadest sense of the world, growth in the entertainment industry. But then again, for us, maybe most of us listening to this today, also inside that frame, there is the classic distinction between culture and art. And that distinction is probably still there. And that is at least a specific feature in our business, I would say. I mean, a lot of things is not very different from other branches, there is this distinction between that we are in this for the art's sake and to balance that. And it was mentioned also before, but how did you witness the current crisis impact our sector and more specifically, I think, what fragilities do you think it highlighted the crisis? Well, just, I mean, as a human family, how fragile we are. I mean, I don't think we need time to digest this very much, I mean, the whole situation, but probably, and some of you have started on that already. Of course, it highlights the political uncertainty. I mentioned earlier, of course. But the very way we work collectively together, physical, and with them still the main, even though if digital content is popping up all over Europe, I mean, still with the main business, I need to meet a live audience with live artists. Well, I think, I mean, no other sector, I think, is less compatible with COVID-19 anyway. I mean, we, this was absolutely, I mean, there are theatres in Norway who tell the story of they have never been for 100 years closed one day. I mean, the show has, even during wars, war time, it's still been doing some kind of business. So when we closed on March 13, that was the first time. For some of our biggest theatres, it was the first time ever that they closed down without it being a holiday. So, well, to see the full impact of this, but of course we were very, very vulnerable. And it also shows the gaps as we are going to discuss in social protection, of course, from different countries and for different group of people. And the access to social security rights such as unemployment benefits, et cetera. And it shows the complex way in which people earn their money in this sector. And in many countries, we have to say, social partners have worked their socks off the last past months to behind the scene and on the scene to get things more straight and make it possible for freelancers to access these unemployment structures and other benefits. Some has succeeded good in that, some has not, which is a European problem. The mobility is, of course, reduced. The access to the world market has gone and collapsed and forced us into looking at the local markets, neighbouring countries, digital products. So in other words, options for projects and employment opportunities have shrunk, of course. And, well, and it's too early to say, of course, how many will leave the sector. But a recent study in Norway, even though we here have good support systems in place also for the freelancers, figures show that as much as 20% of the people asked were thinking about leaving or changing career or over to other sectors. Starting with that. Thank you, Martin. It's interesting what you say about initiatives coming up through social dialogue and others to help, especially the freelancers. We'll get back to it in a second round if you agree. Now, I wanted to continue with Ulrike. Ulrike Kuner, hello. You are the managing director of the EGF Haya Theater Arbite and promoting the service and information tool for freelance artists, also Austria. And you're also the current president of the newly funded umbrella organisation, the European Association of Independent Performing Arts. So thank you for being with us. I also have a question for you. What do we know of the working conditions in the independent scene across Europe? Yes, hello and good morning to Europe. So to say. Well, if the working conditions in the performing arts sector are precarious and unstable, they are even more so in the independent performing arts sector. Individuals working in the independent field are especially vulnerable since they often work on short-term basis with unclear statuses and without long-term funding plans switching back and forth between different contracts. Studies in several countries show that independent artists receive an income on 20 to 22 weeks per year. The average gross income from artistic and educational work is between 15,000 and 25,000 euros per year. Usually the success rate to get public funding for an artistic project is between 15 to 20%. Which means this shows how fragile the entire structure is and how fragile the entire income structure not in a normal year and not attacked by COVID, for example, is. The COVID-19 crisis has nearly amplified these shortcomings and brought to light the neglect society has shown towards the working conditions of the individual artists. In parallel, it also brings attention to the individual artists. Until now, politicians responsible for arts and culture primarily dealt with the organizations and institutions. For example, in Vienna, only 16% of the budget spent for the independent perform arts scene, which is the total about approximately 30 million euros, 30 million euros is dedicated to funding structures the artists can directly apply for. But it is the artists and it is it are the companies who develop the artistic productions that take both the artistic as well as the economic risk. However, the field of the independent performing arts is far from being a fringe phenomenon. On the contrary, this scene is steadily growing with an increasing number of international engagements and employers opting for short term or freelance set of long term contracts with theaters or companies. And the artists before also individuals, they highlighted this very much. This is really the a little bit the future perspective of the artist. They want to create their own shows. They want to create their own productions and they do not any longer want to become or want to be so directly dependent from a curatorial choice or from selection processes. The European Association of Independent Performing Arts founded in 2018 is the umbrella organization of associations, organizations and interest groups from all over Europe representing the independent performing arts at a national and international level. Our mission is to improve the conditions and sustainability of professional independent performing arts within our member countries to raise visibility and awareness of independent performing arts with the sector itself and for the general public and all involved authorities and we endeavour to create prosperity across the sector and aim to attain future sustainability in three correlative areas. It's about social sustainability economic sustainability and ecological sustainability. In the work you've been doing in the last two years have you been, have you identified already some good practices across Europe to fight this precarity and secure careers? Yeah, this is also what the other speakers just highlighted or said, I mean, so the fragmentation of Europe and the fragmentation of this several social and cultural political responsibilities. This is, of course, a big problem when it comes only to work on the European level and for sure there are many, many differences in between the different member states but the current challenges can be mentioned as fair pay and fair play and they include all stakeholders artists, institutions, politicians and funders. Covid now stimulated this debate and interesting wise the general audience and politicians are currently very aware that the social funding and contracting the contracting system needs to be renovated. The focus is now on the people and in several countries this process of renovation already started this is also what Morten just highlighted before. For example, some countries like France and Belgium have established an artist status which was also mentioned before which offers individual artists and artistic companies a more profound social security system and more financial and artistic flexibility and visibility. In Sweden, for example, there's a fixed system of remuneration there is for each participant within a project. Germany and in Austria here in Vienna right now there is a minimum honorarium structure which recommends a fee per month or per day which should not come below but everything depends if the company gets public funding in here again we are with a 15-20% maximum success rate. Currently, the European Association has teamed up with Thomas Eder who is associated with the theater studies department at the Ludwig Maximilians University in Munich for a big research project that aims to provide a direct overview of the organizational field of the independent performing arts in Europe. This project will create a basis for comparison concerning distinct the national characteristics of independent performing arts infrastructures the social statuses of the artists the funding systems and the role of advocacy organizations. In 2018 we made a first research study and collected general data and information about the field and the following findings there are crucial which is first the independent scene is a fundamental force in art and cultural production in all countries that were part of the study. It encompasses several hundred thousand professionals, tens of thousands of festivals, production venues and residency programs representation structures on local, national and international levels billions of audience members with media attention often reaching far beyond European borders. So still the working conditions are often poor and the field is not fully recognized by all European governments. Some answers to fight precarity and to permanently secure the diversity and the high quality of the field were found but however an European wide implementation has still not been successful. Thus the research suggests the following recommendations to find a basis for appropriate adjustments of the funding systems and for innovative improvements of economic and social political parameters adaptable to the needs of performing arts professionals a comparative study is needed that further analyze the needs and requirements of the field with regards to the funding systems and policymaking processes of all countries under study with this study attend and we are starting right now and the first questioner will be delivered on 1st of December this time we are comparing 12 countries or even more not only using interviews with experts but conducting an additional survey that will involve practitioners as well. Thank you Ulrike very interesting work and I think you're right the crisis is pushing this topic on the agenda at national levels at European levels which is very good now as Morten said we have to make sure it's not too late the crisis being so violent and I'm glad we have this discussion today also with policy makers because it is extremely timely so we will move to Elena now I'm from you are head of policy and research at IETM the international network for contemporary performing arts and I wanted to ask you how you considered and precarity effects the artistic and sometimes the political dimension of the work and what impact it has on the diversity and inclusivity of the sector. Hello everyone thank you Daphne the various conditions in which artists operate for them to use their creativity agility and flexibility to adapt to the hard realities and to invent their own solutions to deal with them and this is often called resilience but over focus on resilience as we can imagine for the serious problems on the long term for freedom integrity and autonomy of the artistic work itself it means the precarity with most innovative solutions survival strategies and juggling among several jobs not necessarily artistic ones with scattered projects and going for hectic mobility and this has an impact on the ability of artists and creative workers to pursue and to shape a sustainable long term professional trajectory on the social and political values basically the constant effort to adapt to the hard realities and to precarious socio-economic conditions in the sector puts enormous pressure on the artistic value of what artists are doing in some periods of time it can even undermine artists ability to work at all to create and to express themselves and this often comes with economic instrumentalization with harsh competition within the sector trying to fit into too many different priorities of too many different funding programs and cell censorship this is undermining creativity, critical thinking and freedom of expression and by the end of the day our societies are losing out on the most innovative and impactful artistic work precarity is also of course a very negative factor for the diversity, inclusivity and equality in the workforce in the performing arts there are no statistics at the U level about how European performing arts are doing in terms of diversity and inclusivity but some national research suggests that professionals from lower socio-economic backgrounds are heavily under-represented in theaters, venues, festivals and art organizations of all types and socio-economic fragility is often connected such as gender, race physical ability, etc minority groups in our sector are either taking the most precarious positions or they don't have access to artistic careers at all and this is obviously because compared to their privileged peers they have they cannot afford the uncertainty, unpaid assignments long-term periods of inactivity unemployment, something that comes sometimes with the artistic career so it still remains to be seen and estimated how the pandemic has reinforced the existing inequalities in the sector but it's already absolutely evident that the most fragile players have been suffering the most and why? Because funding schemes and hardship funds today are mostly directed to those who have been already visible in the scene secondly because digitization created access for some but reduced it for others and for example reopening strategies were not necessarily consulted with disabled artists and there are many more factors which make it more difficult for the minority groups within the sector to be so-called resilient in these realities and that's why private and public funders should necessarily put this issue at the heart of the recovery strategies and funding programs of today and also post-pandemic world Thank you Elena if you don't mind we'll move on because we are already running a bit late but we'll come back to you afterwards with other important issues we'll move to Darvel now the Deputy General Secretary of the International Federation of Actors Darvel you've been working on those issues for many many years what other features of the labour market employment statutes career paths and working conditions of performers would you like to highlight today? Good morning everyone and good morning Daphne and thank you well I think really it was very clear in the videos and also from previous speakers what it's like to work in this sector but one thing that I think bears repeating is the fact that the artists and cultural workers that we heard from this morning are generally very very highly skilled workers these are people who've invested in this career from a very very young age who've undertaken extended studies and generally I think work in the sector is characterised by an enormous love of the craft and an enormous identification with the craft and I think that was very clear in the pain that was described by our dancer speaker this morning of trying to contemplate another career after dancing because the identification with being a dancer is so very strong and what this self-identification with the craft does I think is create a sector where competition kind of has no bottom because the people that are there are so dedicated to what they do and want to do it so badly that they actually accept low-paid, underpaid and even unpaid work in order to try and build a career and many of them as I mentioned will also have a second job to self-subsidise their own work so we don't have an idealised labour market in the sector where supply follows demand and because of that I think there's an even stronger need to be able to set a minimum floor a lot of the speakers in the first video session this morning also mentioned the kind of safe haven of having a contract several of them made reference to the fact that it allowed you to kind of take a breath, put down roots think about other things and build an income around it as well and I think that there is definitely a need to have that kind of base for workers in the sector I think in reality a lot of the time the freelance workforce of the sector who tend to be self-employed are actually also kind of self-penalising by accepting to use the fiscal advantage of being self-employed to actually stay in the sector and to accept that they are not able, like other workers to have the insurances, the social coverage and the benefits and the access to training etc that should be associated with the work that they do so I think those are some of the key aspects really of the labour market in the sector so what do you think which minimum standards for work in the sector do you think should be adopted and how do you think we could get there especially now in terms of crisis Well I think as I said that there just has to be a minimum floor really for working conditions there will always be the surplus of talent that Morten mentioned there will be more talented workers then there are professional opportunities but people that do manage to break into the sector should be able to have a decent income and by that I mean that they ought to be able to live from their craft and the work that they do they ought to have the opportunity to hone their skills and to be able to develop a career and being able to do that is really the right basis for a thriving sector and speaking as a trade union speaker I believe that the right tool for that is collective bargaining there is quite a strong tradition of collective bargaining in the sector in Europe perhaps partly because formerly a lot of the work would have been done in longer term employment contracts but I also think it has to do with this identification with the craft and I think that social partners working together are the right actors really to advocate jointly for the sector for adequate funding for better social security systems and to arrive at the right minimum standards in social dialogue Thank you David. I had a question for you related to the digital environment but I'll keep it for later we'll come back to that in the last session but thank you I'll move to Barbara now hello Barbara you work for the European Commission you work in the director general for education and culture in the cultural policy unit thank you also for joining us today if I'm not wrong we have a forthcoming report on the working condition of artists that's about to be published can you tell us a few words about it and can you give us some highlights of that report yes well first of all to say that the work plan for culture which the council did already foresaw doing such a study on working conditions of artists when they did this plan and also meetings with civil society then also now the parliament did a resolution so I think you can say that even before Covid people were gaining knowledge and understanding that the problem is really huge now with Covid it's even worse as we have seen so I'm really glad that now we have some more data and comparisons of looking at working conditions for artists in the working sector but also in other sectors so the new study which will be published looks at the characteristics of employment of artists the international and European framework the artists statues and entitlements and also interesting issues on minimum wage and basic income because basic income actually may be an interesting way to choose because now with Covid unemployment systems are quite overloaded now also the new study looks at social security taxation VAT all kinds of very incredibly detailed issues very complicated then also it gives an overview of measures to support self-employed artists and cultural and creative professionals in general I have to say that this study relies heavily on the networks which are participating in this panel so IATM Culture Action Europe Pearl on the move free news because the study also looks at freedom artistic freedom which has been mentioned already this morning so yes this study heavily relies on European networks and I think also that's a new way of working that actually cultural and creative sector professionals, networks policymakers the parliament, member states that we are switching to a different mode of working together it's not like in the old days where the labour unions had to climb the barricades and attack and the other ones would attack so now it's more we're more in a different environment where we have to face problems together and we start to co-create solutions so that's very good because the context is quite complicated as has been mentioned before we are here in an environment which is not EU competence so EU has no competences to do social legislation or tax legislation so this is why we need to co-create and to work together because member states have a lot of competences in this area and which is also very important to have here today with us in the next session representatives from the member states who have actually given the impetus for the council to look at that so again to come back to what is this study doing well it has been mentioned also before that some countries have an artist's statute others don't, is it better, is it worse it's complicated to evaluate what is better and worse but here you can then read that the countries which have an artist's statute like France or Belgium they focus on performing artists and on the unemployment benefit side in case of non-performance some people also call it an unemployment statute more than an artist's statute whereas in other countries they are more focusing on mandatory social security contributions of the self-employed which can also be a huge problem I mean there are visual artists or others having to declare personal bankruptcy because they are unable to pay the social security contributions so in this context it's difficult to say what system is the best and this is why we need to work together to look at more in detail you know what we can learn from also the experiences with minimal wage in other countries is it really in a system that we are now in a crisis is it really more expensive than to go through the administrative burden of verifying, paying not paying, paying parts so I think it needs to be looked at in a fresh way there is a momentum so we have the momentum of the Covid crisis which can also be an opportunity in the sense that the conditions are really bad with people not being able to perform at all so in that sense a solution has to be found and I think everyone is aware of it another momentum sorry to say is Brexit because social legislation at EU level has been always more difficult now it is being deblocked so my colleagues in DG employment they are now quite active and have been forwarding new legislation proposals on minimum wages on conditions of the platform workers on freelancers digital services act also looks at that so there might be also some opportunity there and then the European Parliament of course it's a strong ally and I'm very glad that the MEPs will be there in the next session to look at the European framework for working conditions for artists and we can go about this one last word because I think we are running late is to say that all of these issues now today yes of course all of you are very impatient because you have to live it's clear you cannot wait until all this happens I understand so we need to have different goals at this problem one of it is that the commission has already dispersed lots of money 100 billion 200 billion on the different initiatives like sure the unemployment benefits corona response investment initiative the guarantee fund of course when you go to your unemployment office to your local one and you get your check you don't often know that some of it comes from the EU because it's paid out by the local government that's what you have to live with that EU money is often not visible so in parallel to the direct COVID-aid packages I think we have to pursue this way of which takes a bit longer to find a longer term solution for artists and creative professionals there will be next you know early next year there will be a voices of culture dialogue with civil society on the basis of this and other reports and to suggest what has to be done and I really hope that you will be participating in this voices of culture dialogue there will be calls to participate early next year and then in the second half of next year we are working together with member states hopefully with ministries of culture and together with ministries of employment because ministries of employment we need them because it's so complicated this landscape and the tax authorities would be needed to hammer out best practices to see what is really happening and where we should go yes so there's a heavy schedule ahead of us and we hope together we can reach something thanks thank you Barbara I think you opened a lot of avenues and I think it's very encouraging we're looking forward to seeing the report and being able to use it also in our work we have just a few minutes left before the break but there will be another Q&A time afterwards so let's not be frustrated the session is not over yet there was one question in the Q&A that was answered by Elena already a question from Gora asking whether we have any idea of people already considering changing profession or that have done it already and Elena said we don't have data yet but yes it's a trend that we are observing there is another question coming from Marina Maleni asking whether also there is a work that's been done in the different countries of listening to the artist voices and recording their current situation and passing the message to the government so I believe the organizations that are here today they're doing that exactly it's the study that Ulrike has mentioned and it's been done of course it's very challenging as Barbara said to react to a situation that's happening now and I think everyone is trying to grappling with that but I think there is a need for that to continue further and it's clearly identified here and I had also another question on top of everything else about Brexit and about the British artists and their opportunities to continue working in the EU in the coming months and years I don't know if anyone wants to say a word about that before we break for a few minutes Just a small word on Brexit the EU needs to wait for the UK to participate in creative Europe in horizon in the different programs so because of course they have to want because the agreement has to be reached with the British government they have to want to do it so a lot of us uncertainties still there unfortunately adding to the uncertainties I don't know if any of the speakers want to say a brief word or if we keep it for the next session and we take Yes, thank you I just want to address that yes in several countries now the politicians and not only the cultural the politicians responsible for culture much more the mayors who are also in the different cities for example responsible for funding artists and culture and so on and also the usual public audience through the media is now very aware of the situation of the artists and so the entire reaction is like oh we did not know that artists were treated so badly and this also causes a little bit a very very good momentum so to say and we were now processes will start and we have it for example in Bulgaria right now that for the first time ever there is now a coordinated process where the ministry really directly talking with the responsible so with the artists and talking about social security and funding structures which are more sustainable and so on and so on and also in Austria for example just next week a big fair pay and fair play process including all countries and including all of the associations for the artists sector so to say which means I mean yes there is a big awareness right now witnessing through our Europe and we really hope that all of these processes will help now as I said I mean to renovate the entire process the entire system where all of the stakeholders are participating and will come out with new ideas with new contracts with new funding opportunities and that it's not only to secure the employment situation of artists but the focus must be very much on me to finance and to secure the working conditions for the artists and to keep them working not to finance the unemployment not only to finance the unemployment situation but really to focus on the working conditions for the artists and to transfer these structures Thank you Larika there were two more comments one from Stefan Berman in Germany saying that there is indeed no reliable data but empirically that they also can confirm the impression that there is currently at least in Germany an erosion of the system and especially the self-employed are being becoming more and more fragile and having to change profession he quotes 20% of the freelance artists that are making a decision to stay or leave the sector and then Heidi Wiley from the European Theatre Convention says that yes in the UK indeed it's actually the government that launched the debate of having artists change profession in a very controversial campaign that you might have heard of of a dancer being suggesting that a dancer change careers and takes a job in charity and then Anita from Pearl Anita de Barre who's reminded that Martin spoke about nearly 20% of our professionals in Norway thinking of leaving the sector change a career so I think we have sufficient data to say it's really worrying and it should be faced like now so thank you all I suggest that we take five minutes break now and we continue the exchange and the discussion after it so it's 11.34 let's be back I give you an additional minute at 11.40 please welcome back thank you for still being there we are now entering the last session the last round table of our session as mentioned before in the session on the 17th of September the European Parliament adopted a resolution on the cultural recovery of Europe and in this resolution it makes a number of very strong considerations and statements first of all the parliament recognises that the Covid-19 pandemic crisis has highlighted the pre-existing vulnerabilities of cultural and creative sectors and industries including the precarious livelihoods of artists and cultural workers as well as the tight budgets of many cultural institutions the resolution also recognises that the full consequences of the crisis the impact of this crisis on the cultural and creative sectors are just becoming with the overall medium and long-term impact still unknown and that this affects of course the social rights of artists and of cultural professionals who have the right to be fairly financially compensated for their work and for the protection of the diversity of cultural expression so all this quoting the parliament resolution and it calls on the commission and on the member states to take several actions first of all to earmark for the cultural and creative sectors and industries at least 2% of the recovery and resilience facility dedicated to the recovery it criticises the fact that the creative Europe did not receive any additional funding from the next generation you found and calls for the overall budget to be increased to 2.8 billion and then it notes with concern the social safety nets were often inaccessible to creative professionals in non-standard forms of employment and it calls on the member states to ensure access to social benefits for all creative professionals including those in non-standard form of employment and finally it also calls on the commission to introduce a European framework for working conditions in the cultural and creative sectors and industries at EU level which would reflect the specificities of the sector and would introduce guidelines and principles with a view to improving working conditions paying particular attention to transnational employment so I believe this is very much in face with what was said in the previous round table it acknowledges the specificities of the sector its fragilities, the precariousness of most professionals artists and professionals the great impact of the crisis on the professionals and the cultural institutions and it opens an interesting pass of thinking about this possible European framework for working conditions but of course this is still very first steps it is a parliament resolution but we thought it would be a great opportunity for us to actually open the debate and discuss what such a European framework for working conditions in the cultural and creative sector could look like what it could cover and to do that we have the chance as it was mentioned before to have with us two members of the European parliament Mr. Domenic a member of the group of the Greens European free alliance so thank you to the two of them for being with us today and once again please do send us your questions through this discussion using the Q&A box if possible rather than the chat because sometimes the questions get lost in the chat but we'll manage if you do and in the live stream you can also put your questions in the chat and they will be sent our direction so Mr. who is the VESA thank you so much for being with us we wanted to ask you what's your take on this European framework for working conditions in the cultural and creative sector and industries and how would you envision it to be in the future how would you envision it what would you suggest how would you feel that idea welcome thank you very much for the opportunity of being with you today in your important event in order to discuss a very important topic that is very close to our hearts I'm sure which is precisely the point you were raising developing a European framework for working conditions in the cultural and creative sectors now we know that artists and performers and everyone connected to the cultural sector typically suffer from rather precarious livelihoods but we are also cognizant that this has of course been greatly exacerbated by the COVID pandemic it is obvious to all of us that this sector is our creative and cultural sector is probably the most affected because we thrive with audiences, with the public with physical presence in theatres, in cinemas in performance in music concerts of course visiting museums and what not and this is why our group pushed very hard for this resolution that you were mentioning before specifically on the question of the recovery of the cultural sector good ideas and in addition we have the opportunity to also have a European intervention in the general question of working conditions this is why we have proposed as a starting point an initiative report in the committee on culture and education in the European Parliament to deal precisely with this topic of the working conditions we want to call on the commission using this report still to be drafted of course and approved but the intention is to call on the commission to introduce a European framework for working conditions in the cultural and creative sectors and industries at the EU level which will reflect the specificities of the sector and will introduce guidelines and principles with a view to improving working conditions and also with particular attention to transnational employment I have to say that political action at the European level in this field has been long overdue possibly because it is part of the limited competences that as you know unfortunately the treaty gives the European institutions in terms of education and culture something by the way that we must address and I hope that you the forum of European theatres and all the other partners in the cultural sector will support will engage I invite you to engage in the conference on the future of Europe this is an institutional conference but we want to do this conference with the participation of citizens and organized society that means you directly and we need you there because we have also the opportunity in the long term I will go back to the short term in a moment but in the medium and long term we need to revise the European policymaking in the field of culture and that requires a rethink of the Treaty of Lisbon in the topic so I'm sure that with your participation in this conference we can be able to make progress in this field too now going back to the short term I said before the European framework is a long overview because the European parliament have already developed a position on the status of the artists in 2007 so it's more than a decade ago and in the 13 years that have passed not only the issues reflected in that resolution have not been properly addressed but often they have worsened so apart from new developments that we have to tackle I think of digitalization is a whole new world compared to 2007 so we probably have also to update some of the points but not only regarding the updates but also regarding the lack of progress on some of the objectives that were already developed and this is why I said before it's very important that we develop this new position originating from the European parliament now we still need I hope we're going to be successful but this is an initiative of the committee and we still have to navigate the internal European parliament and get approval by the conference of committee chairs sorry for the bureaucratic at this early hour in the morning and the conference of presidents of the political groups but the ball is rolling and we're confident that we will succeed and then of course since we haven't started yet this is also a good thing because we can start engaging with you as well very early on so we can make sure that all your demands and points are well reflected in this own initiative report of the European parliament now if you allow me I don't want to take too much time I'm sure it's more important to have questions and interaction but just a few concrete points I think of my vision for a possible EU framework for working conditions in the cultural and creative sectors the first point is that of the scope I believe it must be and probably I think you will agree it must be as inclusive as possible tackling the situation of artists as well as performers but also as I hinted before all those that make culture possible let's think of sound engineers costume designers, stage managers make up personnel, what not some of the issues that we have proposed that the report covers are the right to remuneration for artistic cultural and creative practices we believe that of course I belong to a progressive group and for us work as rights in every sector are very close to our heart so for us non-remunerated work should not be seen as an opportunity for us work is work and should always be paid and well paid, decently paid then of course the right of freedom of association in relation to competition law probably this is also very close to the interest of this audience self-employed workers who join forces to improve their living conditions should never be considered a carter plotting to distort competition it is almost a joke that this situation has come up in the past and it's totally unacceptable and we should be very clear about it and we know by the way that competition law falls clearly within the remit of EU competencies but it should be applied in a reasonable fashion and not in a robotic automatic application of by now clearly outdated neoliberal principles then how can we address intermitence in creative careers particularly for the vast numbers again the self-employed cultural workers is an important focus for us of course so how do we build appropriate safety nets that give access to benefits in case of unemployment accidents at work or sickness and even you know what just happened now you know a systemic pandemic affecting all of us but particularly the operators and the workers in the cultural and creative sectors how do we facilitate access to retirement is there a need for a European mechanism to facilitate access to pensions when you had a highly mobile European career which is typically the case of cultural creators and operators in the cultural field sorry I missed something the digital shift offers incredible opportunities for creators but we must make sure that the revenues derived from the digital works can support better the livelihood of cultural workers this will become more and more important not only because of the pandemic but in general in the cultural in the cultural field research and learning and creating are closely interconnected career development and upskilling is a must to sustain a professional career then we should look at how can we foster links between education and culture in new programs and policies also because something that is also very important for us is that we believe that the cultural the artists and the cultural workers are creators of citizenship are creators of values and thus we should recognize the play an important role in society and this should also be recognized at a higher level even at the treaty level all the issues at the stake are career sustainability for women we know far too many women abandon their creative practice due to lack of support as freelancers freelancers for example after during pregnancy and after giving birth how do we incentivize a diverse cultural workforce that includes that is protective of women and that includes minorities these are only some of the overarching issues that we have identified so far so I am very eager to hear your proposals and do not hesitate to let me know if there are any other crucial issues we must consider as I said we want to have your input in this important what I believe is going to be an important report on the working conditions of cultural workers we have already requested a study of the committee so there will be a study first this is important because you know there is a lack of EU-wide information and we are just to end at the start of a road it's true that the road ahead is still rather long we need to have the study we need to get the report approved meaning authorized and then approved and then action by the commission but the good thing is that we are meeting as I said before we are meeting at the very start of this road so it is very good so we can walk together this road in favour of very good better and decent working conditions of cultural workers thank you very much thank you so much I think it's very encouraging to hear that it's on the agenda that the topic is being championed and that also you cover so many already you plan to cover so many key issues that have been addressed already before by the different panellists and that you propose to work together I'm pretty sure that all the organization behind the European theater forum and this session sorry we'll be glad to continue the discussion with you and to send your proposal afterwards so I'll turn to Mr. Linas now thank you so much for being here too I'd like to give you the floor so that you could also comment on this proposal and give us your view on what European framework and working conditions for artists and cultural workers could look like thank you very much and also thank you very much for inviting me today I'm actually honoured to speak for the European theater forum especially because I started with theater I used to be acting myself and I had a play produced and so this was a very interesting stage for my early years but then also when I looked into the future of what I want to do after school and after all this time I thought of well do I want to continue acting and do I want to become an actor actually or do I want to go into law those were the two possibilities and in the end the one sad motivator to go into law rather than into acting was basically the working conditions and the payment and the uncertainties that I know that a lot of people working in the performing arts have to struggle with and I have to say this was also a reason for me to say well I don't want to be always in this hard situation hard problems to always have to look for funding always have to work for scraps for doing a lot of work for very little enumeration and so I decided to go into law because it's just safer as we see it in society I'm very thankful that Dominic already spoke a member of our CCFG which is a group that we founded with the with a lot of different MEPs from the whole parliament because we wanted to tackle exactly these issues we wanted to go into the situation of the culture creators and so that's why we founded the culture creators friendship group and Dominic has already mentioned it correctly we have a little problem here at hand for the European situation which is the limited competencies of the European Union on the affairs of culture and that is right it's right for him to call on the conference on the future of Europe because this is a moment in which we can all talk about whether we need more competencies for the EU for example in healthcare which the pandemic has shown but also in culture with also the pandemic has shown as I see it and we need to involve into this but more competencies in here because I believe that if we want to be truth to our motto which is united in diversity then we need to support different cultures all around Europe and therefore we need to support those people who are making the culture which are the creators and the performers however we have as the European Union as the parliament in particular I believe also the big task to defend the EU Charter of Human Rights and in the EU Charter of Human Rights we have in article 13 the right and the freedom of the arts and the sciences and I think that this freedom needs more than just plain statement of yes you can do whatever you want because artists and performers need to be able to live of their work otherwise they cannot be free in their art so therefore we need a framework either in a directive or better in a regulation on the European side on this working conditions but also on the social status of the artists and performers I'm happy that we're involved into it we have really pressured the commission to start this study to start the process we are proposing to have studies in the parliament as well to have this initiative report on how exactly we want to shape the process but it's going and the interest is there in a lot of different groups so it's also good to see that the issue has been raised not just by single members but also by a lot of different groups and that it's a high priority becoming for the court committee and now for the points that I'm fighting for that I think should be going into this discussion I think one of the main first points that we need to ensure is the contract safety because a lot of artists and performers are actually self-employed and therefore rely heavily on contracts that they make with the studios or the theatres and therefore it's important that those contracts are from the very start of your career are safe for you I think that we can enable these contracts to be safer for the performers, for the solo self-employed people because we can also see that a certain minimum wage can also be involved into this framework because you are always on the receiving end if you are self-employed being in a contract negotiation with a big company or a bigger firm or a big theatre so you are always in the less favoured position and therefore we need to strengthen this position in particular and even think about minimum wages already there or minimum remuneration from the very start another big point in my understanding is the social rights and this is an issue that we have with several member states that have solved this issue more or less with different models how to ensure that creators and artists and performers always have a social net in the background that catches them but a lot of member states don't have this support and we need a solution there that involves the state because it's not working without and we need a pension fund as well as an employment fund in which artists and artists can pay into and to ensure that they are safe in cases of crisis I think this crisis like we see today just has shown in a particular hard way how difficult the structure of the culture and creative sector is it is not like this crisis has for the first time ever shown us that it's not working it was always a hardship in the sector to survive in the social aspects but this crisis really just pressured another dense into it and showed the whole world basically how hard the problems are and how much we need to work on it and therefore this is now really the time to go into the social status and the social rights of workers in the culture and creative sector as a whole to ensure that they have a safety net to fall back on in cases of crisis but also not just in case of pandemic but also in personal crisis what is if you cannot work anymore, if you are retired how can it be that so many artists have a retirement of a few hundred years and cannot really pay their end for when their pictures and their art is seen as national it is a very big discrepancy that we have there in their art and their enumeration I have to look at my page again what I wrote there the next point that I think we need to definitely talk about is the question of funding I know that a lot of artists especially those who are not under contract or under continuous contract of big performing studios or theatres have always the tendency to go from one funding to another they build up projects themselves they apply for funding and they are doing so much for the community they live in they bring people together and they do tremendous work there however these funding are always hard to get but it is always uncertain if they come back again if the funding continues and also and this is the main critique here under which criteria these funding fundings will be paid off and I think this is important to ensure that we have Europe-wide level playing field for funding that everybody has the same possibility to get towards the funding that the funding is because freedom of the art is not bound to certain rules like they do for example in Poland where you can only get funding if you follow the rules of state government or God and if your project doesn't have anything in common with that that should not be possible anywhere in the European Union your freedom of the art should be protected also in the funding but also we need to ensure that not just big companies with big law law firms in the background can apply for it because bureaucracy is so high that we need to ensure that everybody also the small groups theater groups the individuals can apply for the funding be it national or European funding which by the way very happy that we have a compromise proposal for the MFF on the way to increase the funding of creative Europe by 600 million euros bringing it to a total of 2.2 billion euros which is a tremendous win for the European Parliament and a good step for the creative Europe program as a whole but again here is the problem we need to ensure that it's easy to access that people can actually access it and don't have the hard time to go too much bureaucracy thank you so much Niklas I'll have to ask you to just wrap up I want to finish last sentence because this is very important for me to bring back what I said in the beginning I think that artists are not just crazy people living the dream of stars and everything they're very hardworking decent people that are a very tremendous part of our society and that make the well-being of our society so much better and we should thank them for that and treat them with the respect that they deserve and that means a fair payment and good working conditions I wish to work for a society of future generations of people like me can not decide between law and theater not because of the working conditions but because of what they prefer to do in life and seeing that both of them have a fair renumeration in the end thank you so much I'm sorry to have to rush you I think in your presentation and the one before that we approach all the key issues and I can see in the comments questions that the issue of the self-employed the issue of the secure contracts the issue of the education and sensibilization it touches not only a chord it's like the heart of the issue and there is also a question about the principle of subsidiarity of course and how could a European mechanism be established even before we changed the treaty if we managed to change the treaty and get to reviewing the competence of the EU in the field of culture I think of course those are all very complicated issues that have been around for many many years but I think it's very good that we open the debate again if you agree we'll move to the next two speakers first and then hopefully we'll get time for questions we are running late I don't know if you can stay with us you're very welcome too if you have to leave we of course understand but if you can it'd be great we can have a short exchange after it because we have with us now two representatives of member states we are very lucky to have Heide-Marie Meldsidner from the second from the Austrian permanent representation in Brussels sorry and Catherine Tinpont from the Belgian representation in Brussels we glad to have you here because of course there is the sub-segerity principles there is the important competence of the member states in all those issues and it's very good for us to hear your take on this debate and how you understand the added value of EU action on the topic of the working condition of artists and professional workers and how do you think we could encourage action between member states and in member states on the topic especially in the member states that have less in place already less safety nets in place to support the artists and the cultural professionals we are running late so I'm really sorry it's always like that when you come late in a session but if I can ask you to I will do my best I will do my also hello to everybody and thank you for inviting me it's really a pleasure to take part in this essential discussions from a council and member states but the perspective I can briefly very briefly refer also to the context of this topic and what is planned at the EU level and then I will also talk about the recently launched initiative at the national level it was already mentioned there is a limited competence but nevertheless there are possibilities from the institutional sites and also at the European level we have to be in mind that not only the cultural competencies are limited there are also the social employment policies it's limited but it's also important that the role of culture and the role of cultural professionals and artists are well recognized over the past years and gets more and more attention also at the European level with regard to the current situation there are also a lot of positive effects of the cultural participation and a lot of positive effects of mainstreaming which helps now and culture is present in many other in many programs and can get funding from there when it comes now to employment and to income issue then it gets of course tricky it was also very well explained already by previous speakers that's characterized by a complex composition of incomes and I would say that the employment situation is quite particular and unique there are short term contracts and part time jobs and very often it's a combination of cell employment with temporary or partial unemployment and jungle between different legal status which makes the situation to come up with measures quite challenging the Covid crisis was also mentioned of course has influence impact on the cultural sector and it has been well recognized that immediate help and assistance had to be developed and there is a great variety now of emergency measures general and specific support initiatives and it has been implemented as well as member states level regional and local level EU level and one of the most pressing challenges I think is the persisting uncertainty for everybody it's not only for the sectors for the artists unfortunately it's also for the policy makers and please be in mind that we are all very eager to help and I know how hard we are working and how we find solutions but the situation is quite unique and challenging for the policy level as well concerning the member states it has been already mentioned that we define our priorities for multi-annual work plans and these work plans are established as a strategic and dynamic instrument of cultural cooperation so we define priorities the last work plan was developed under the Austrian presidency in the second half of 2018 an important basis for this was of course the new European agenda for culture you are very familiar with the three strategic priorities so we define six priorities and one of them was to focus on an ecosystem supporting artists, cultural and creative professionals and the European content and with this within that priority one essential topic is to improve the working condition for artists and cultural and creative professionals it's exactly the topic we are talking today it has all been mentioned by Barbara that there are different working methods to implement these topics and one will be the open method of coordination so there will be an an OMC group which provides a framework of cooperation between member states countries it may be described as a form of soft law it's a form of intergovernmental policymaking and does not result in binding measured and it's primarily based on jointly identifying objectives to be achieved which is very important in this case and of course the exchange of best practice the OMC starts on the basis of the study which has been already mentioned so we are waiting for this study we have also heard from the European Parliament so a lot of essential work on the pipeline and we are waiting for this then the stakeholders will get together and this OMC group will hopefully start in the second half of next year so it takes a little bit time and I know all the issues are really burning and are demanding for solutions at the national level it has also been already been mentioned one of the priorities is also to improve working condition for artists and the culture and creative professionals recently the responsible secretary of state did set up a task force and a meeting took place yesterday already with her counterparts on the regional level and it's called the fairness process and so they will come up with solutions and really to improve the situation of individual artists, the working conditions and think about social protections and social security schemes so yesterday was the first essential meeting but in the course of this month there should also be another meeting with the stakeholders and with representatives from the sector itself and in spring there will be hopefully first and before some a bigger conference is expected to take place and maybe I can also mention that on the first of December there will be the council of cultural ministers and the policy debate will be devoted to the COVID impacts and I think it's also a good opportunity to highlight this essential topic which is discussed today and what we should also have in mind that since there is this limited competence that we have to learn from each other and that we should go on with dialogue and today's meeting is very essential to come together and I appreciate a lot what I have heard from the sector itself in the first panel so I see also the COVID crisis it might be a window of opportunity and it could be really the right moment to explore the possibilities for an EU action and hopefully we can contribute to it and to the benefit of the artists. Thank you Thank you for outlining all those other opportunities to push the topic between member states in the context of the OMC and others. Catherine how is that are you navigating those issues and what's on your agenda? Thank you Daphne thank you for inviting me to this very interesting conference I have to say very inspiring it's difficult to be at the end of the session because a lot of things have been said and all very true things so the scene has been set to be in the theatre mode I can maybe elaborate a bit on what Heidi was saying we are in the same meeting Heidi and me we are discussing from our representing our member states and discussing on a member state level what can be done within the council of the EU we have the main context that is the work plan that was mentioned before and then this OMC that will start next year the working conditions so what happens in the OMC is that we as a member state have representatives in a group that is facilitated by the European Commission to exchange knowledge and good practices around these teams this is very important because the competence is on the member state level and this is where a lot of issues can already be tackled we don't need to change the treaty we will not be changing the treaty next year I believe so we must act where the action is possible today so in the OMC group member state experts that these are often civil servants that are close to policy making that are close to governments will exchange how they deal with issues in their member state and this is a process that is meant to be inspiring others and trying to share knowledge which is to our experience because there has been a lot of OMCs in the past years on different themes and it is something that is really working and helping our policy development on a national level so what are we doing today in Belgium and in the Flemish government that I am representing also it was mentioned before we have had an artist status for about 20 years now and it is a mechanism that is there for individual artists and also technicians and that is giving preferential access to unemployment benefits between projects so this is the basic idea it is providing a more stable income for the precarious situations of artists and we have been doing a lot of fine tuning of the concept in the past years and the Covid crisis unfortunately shows us that even more fine tuning is needed and not only on this artist's status but on a broader level that we would like to call fair practice fair practice is more than fair pay it is also gender equality it is also fair contracts working conditions on many different aspects so this is the policy work that we are trying to do in the next months and years building fair practice for artists and cultural professionals and the OMC exchanges will feed into this thinking and policy thinking then maybe a last issue that I would like to mention here is something that we have been working on in the past years it is called culture locket it is an independent organization funded by the Flemish government and it informs trains and consults individual cultural professionals in developing their careers and optimizing their social and legal status and their working conditions we believe this is also very needed as a tool for artists we don't want artists to be accountants or lawyers themselves we are trying to support them in these matters through this organization so this organization is there for them to help them in improving their working conditions and maybe this is my last note thank you it is always difficult to come last as the last speaker after so much has been said but you managed to bring new options and opportunities and new ideas on the table so it's really great we are reaching the end of the session unfortunately and it's really frustrating because we have such amazing people around the table coming from different perspective we have the chance to have the parliament the commission the state the sector with us so I wish we could continue for another hour but we can't because also as you know there is a reporting back session in 15 minutes where the three parallel session will come back and discuss and I've been told that there will be a Q&A opportunity there so I would offer to not have much time here we have two minutes but eventually to invite you to join that session at 12.45 if you have any pressing issue or comments or contributions you would like to make I will also want to say that I think we heard the invitations from the members of the European Parliament and from the member states to continue the dialogue with them to send them any information feedback we can collect from the ground voices of artists, testimonies day type there is any about the impact of the crisis on the sector the urgent needs so I would invite all of us to continue to keep the connection and continue working on that because it is a pressing issue but it is also a long overdue and we all agreed at European level and I think it's about time that we really get together and work on that together so just one very short comment if I may because I have to admit I was a bit disappointed hearing the representative of the Flemish government and I hope that doesn't reflect the position of the federal Belgian government that has been always in favour of advancing European integration including by treaty changes. It's really a pity that she opposes treaty change at this stage it's something that we need at all levels in terms of empowering citizens and the European Parliament and of course also to raise the profile of culture and cultural workers in the treaty itself we need to have the European pillar of social rights in the treaty which is usually extremely helpful to cultural workers of course we will continue working in the short term with the European framework of working conditions but of course we are going to change the treaty very soon because next year we have the conference on the future of Europe and from the conference we will have the springboard shortly afterwards for changing the treaty so I really hope that doesn't reflect the view of the Belgian federal government always very pro-European and in favour of a more united Europe thank you. Just a very short reaction I I believe I was misunderstood because I wanted to send a positive message which is that we don't need to change the treaty we need we need to do it we don't we might need to change the treaty in order to act and to do something so it was a positive message it was a message that we can act now okay I think we will not change it soon so we need action sooner then we can change the treaty and I'm very sorry if I was misunderstood it wasn't a political message I was trying to make it was a positive action call to action so I'm sorry if I was misunderstood let's work on all fronts open to us and let's create partnerships when we can and let's meet again in 15 minutes I just had one more comment to make for the forum guest list participants who are currently with us on the forum platform you are welcome also there is another opportunity to continue the discussion in the platform room called the ringing loft there you have an opportunity to meet and talk face to face about this topic continue the discussion there in an online settings that I haven't visited yet but I'm really curious so let's meet there later if you can thank you again to all participants it's a complex issue it's a burning issue but we really really thank you for your presence and your contributions and your cooperation and take care until soon bye bye thank you