 Good evening. In conversation with the mystic is an exclusive series of interactive episodes where eminent personalities from various walks of life explore a range of subjects with Sadhguru. From the economic to the political, from the cultural to the environment, some of these conversations have been freewheeling while some have been focused on a particular topic. Today we will have the pleasure of listening to Dr. Kiran Mazumdar Shah in conversation with Sadhguru. Dr. Kiran Mazumdar Shah needs no introduction in this city. She's a pioneer of the biotechnology industry in India and the founder of Asia's leading biotechnology enterprise, Biocon. Named amongst Time magazine's 100 most influential people in the world, Dr. Mazumdar Shah has built a globally recognized pharmaceutical enterprise that is committed to innovation and affordable access to healthcare. She's received two of India's highest civilian awards, the Padma Shree in 1989 and the Padma Bhushan in 2005. Besides several other global awards which have positioned her as a global influencer in the world of science and entrepreneurship. She holds key positions in various industry, educational government and professional bodies. Dr. Mazumdar Shah's commitment to affordable healthcare extends beyond business. She is the second Indian to join the Giving Pledge Global Initiative created by Warren Buffett and Bill and Melinda Gates that encourages billionaires to give the majority of their wealth to philanthropic cause. Sadhguru, the founder of Isha Foundation, is one of the most, foremost spiritual leaders of our times. May we invite Dr. Mazumdar Shah and Sadhguru to the stage. Sadhguruji, Nandinda, Nimge, Pranayam Garu. Madhu, Nimge, Eldarigu, Namaskara. I can't tell you how privileged I feel and it's a rare privilege for me to be here in conversation with you in front of this wonderful and huge audience. I have always, you know, listened to you and admired you from afar, whether it was Davos, whether it was on TV, whether it was on social media. I never imagined that I would be sitting here up close and personal, having a conversation with you. So, to me it's like virtual reality. But, you know, it is really a very rare privilege and, you know, it's very interesting for me to see how this conversation with the mystic is making such a wonderful impact on everyone who listens to you, including myself. But then when I think about the word mystic, and of course you are a mystic, and yet when I've listened to you, I can't help but feel that you have so effectively demystified so many complex issues for all of us. You simplify everything and to me that is really, really something that speaks of your wisdom. So, you know, when I think about the complex lives that we live in, the kind of complexities and maybe we make things more complex than they should be, I just, you know, can't help but ask you, how do you basically cut through all this noise? How do you have this clarity of thought and words that we all listen to and suddenly feel that, oh my God, it's so simple, it's so common sense, why didn't we think of it this way? And my question to you Guruji is, how do you, you know, help us to cut through that noise, to gain that clarity and to find answers to these problems or complex situations that are there or maybe we create to really make us better people? It's sort of a, can we, can you share with us those secrets, those guidelines or, you know, some, you know, small, simple formula that we can use in our lives or is it asking, or is it making things too simplistic? Namaskar. About just what you said, the essential thing in the world is this, anything that we don't understand, anything that we don't have a handle on becomes mysterious to us. Right here if you look at everybody, many aspects of life, what is very mysterious and exciting for one person, another person it may be just a daily affair. So mysticism means, the word mysticism is coined by ignorant people. Actually I must tell you this, sometime ago we were to publish a book, normally most books except a few where I sat down and wrote, other things are generally compilation of talks. So this book which was a compilation came to me for the title, I'm supposed to give the title. So I wrote off mystics and mistakes. So our English publication, people who are there, the volunteers, they said, Sadhguru, this is too up in the face, it's too blatant. I said, no, no, that's how it is. There are only two kinds of people in the world, mystics and mistakes. Because if you see everything just the way it is, you get labeled as a mystic. If you are making mistakes with your perception, people think you're normal. Whenever I hear this, when people start off saying, see after all we are only human, I know they're referring to their mistakes and their limitations. Very few people will ever say, I am human, referring to the immensity of being human. Whenever people say we are only human, they're always referring to their limitations and the mistakes they've made of themselves. So you should not be surprised about this, that if there is a situation that you think is complex, only if I am able to make it very simple for you to understand, see I am not changing the nature of the situation, situation is still the same. Just that for you to understand, I will simplify the process. Only then you can call that person a mistake. Otherwise, if I complicate a simple situation, that's a con man. Yes, simple things are complicated so that nobody figures out what's happening there. That's a con job, isn't it? Unfortunately, with all due respect to everyone, much of anything that is supposed to be what is usually referred to be as otherworldly in the form of religion, spirituality, philosophies, in my opinion, largely has been a con job because complicating simple things. You complicate simple things because you want to keep people eternally confused. When people are confused, they are enslaved. Sorry. Wow! That's a very unique way of looking at it. And you know, you said, and I, you know, was very taken with that statement you made, that I am human, that is to say that you're proud of being a human being and that you've got this life in you which is very, very unique. And I want to actually take that sentence of yours and say, I'm a woman. And you know, I want to raise a very important subject which has always worried me a lot and that is about the very, very serious gender bias that we have in society across the world. But I want to focus on our own country. At least you've got a day for yourself. There's no man day here. Well, you know, I just want to say that, let me tell you that as a woman, I'm very proud to be a woman in this country, but I think I know what this gender bias is about. Because right from the time I was born, I have seen this gender bias in society. And I really want to discuss this with you, Sadhguruji, because I really think it's very important for me to, you know, understand from you about certain things that have always been of concern to me as a woman, because I remember my mother telling me when I was born that although my parents were overjoyed, my late grandmother, you know, that is my father's mother, my late father's mother was deeply disappointed that the first child born in the family was a girl child. And my mother told me that she didn't even come and visit me for a whole day. And yet, my grandmother, as I grew up, you know, started respecting me and, you know, admiring me for some of the things I was doing. And I remember when I came back from Australia, she looked up to me and she said, you know, your father doesn't have two sons and a daughter, he has three sons. So even in that, yes. So even in that, even though I was achieving, you know, so much, she still saw me, saw that strength in me as being a male, as being a, you know, a man in a sort of woman's body kind of thing. So I just feel that this problem that we have in society is real. I mean, let's not, you know, hide away from the fact that in Indian society, much as we want to basically try and behave as if there is gender equity, there isn't. There is a lot of gender bias. I know that, you know, we are a strange society. On one hand, we, of course, you know, revere goddesses, you know, as very powerful goddesses. They're not here with us. And yet, you know, we have wisdom and wealth as female icons, you know. We have Durga, Kali as, you know, powerful symbols of, you know, powerful iconic symbols. And yet, on earth, we don't pay that same respect to women. We do, not just Durga and Kali, we also almost nearly worship the film stars. We only have problem with the ladies who are around us. But why do we have that problem with the ladies around us? Why do we have that, that bias, you know? Is the… is it an insecurity, what is it? This is a larger aspects or a large… many aspects enmeshed in this. If you don't mind me taking a few minutes on this one. Please take all the time. Whatever I say, all the ladies, you must listen to me carefully. I am not biased. But we should not ignore realities in the sense, see we are doing a fundamental mistake in this, that is, we are trying to equate a man and a woman in the physical world, it's a wrong way to go. Because in the physical world, male is definitely stronger physically. The leveling of the playing field is happening not of… not because of evolution of attitudes and perceptions, no. Only because of technology. Because, let us say, I am in Coimbatore, thousand years ago, not today, you want to come, most probably you won't come. The man in your house will come. You will not come simply because variety of problems are there on the way. So only the man traveled, only the man did things outside. It is not that women did nothing, they did the most significant thing that they gave birth to us. I don't see how it is less significant than earning a few rupees. How is it less significant that somebody who gave birth to me is less significant than somebody who earned a few bucks for me? How is it less significant? I don't understand. Because we are driving the entire world today, only from the perspective of the economic engine. Economic engine or economics as we know it is just a glorified version of just providing for ourselves. That's all it is. We have glorified it in such a way that that's the only thing that matters. Today if you say a big man in Bangalore city, I wouldn't dare say a big woman, okay? If you say a big man, it's not because he's got big brains, we call him a big man. Not because he has a big heart, we call him a big man. Not because he has enormous wisdom, we call him a big man. He's got a big pocket. I'm saying our perspective has become like this. The simple act of providing for ourselves and those around us has been glorified to your point. Providing has always been the activity of the male. But making life beautiful, making life meaningful, bringing sense to life has always been the act of the feminine. But unfortunately we are creating a society where there is no value for anything that is feminine. And now we are expecting a woman to succeed. The only way is she has to do this all the time, just like a man. She can do it, but she doesn't have the same amount of muscle that doesn't make us inferior, that doesn't make somebody else superior, that's not the point. The point is we have created a very skewed playing field. Now you're wanting to succeed on that playing field which is not designed for you. I'm saying we need to redesign the society so that both masculine and feminine have equal roles to play. Today the role for the… I'm not talking about male-female, I'm talking about masculine and feminine. The role for the feminine in the making of our society is so minimal that we think we can do without it. No, it must be equal, only then life will be beautiful. Otherwise you will work your life out without knowing why the hell you're doing what you're doing. That's what is happening. So as a woman, as the feminine, as a manifestation of feminine, I'm saying what is more significant in our life than our birth, I'm asking. How's anything more significant? The only more significant thing if you live a bad life is your death. The most significant aspect of our life is our birth. In this aspect, our mothers or the women had ninety percent role and maybe ten percent for the man's role. I don't know what's the percentage but you know you're a bio. But now we are starting to create a world where it is all about masculine activity and women are supposed to succeed in that. Obviously it'll be torturous. No, but I think Guruji if you think about it, in the knowledge economy, it's not about, you know... That's what I'm saying, that is changing. It's about brains, right? That is changing now because of technology. Because the brawn is becoming less and less significant, now women are beginning to play their role. But this is only in the last two generations. For two generations, I think they've done very well. And we must understand this, this in the rural areas of this country and I would like to change this, it is not just in India, it is in the human societies, it's like this. The discrimination is there. It may be on the surface they've leveled it out because of development of technology, of conveniences that women are playing equal role in many places. So we don't have to fundamentally what I'm saying is, a society has to take care of one thing that a woman cannot be physically harmed, okay? Rest, I think she will fend for herself. There is no need to make it overtly nice for her, she will fend for herself. Only thing is physically, because she is more vulnerable than a man, every society should establish that physical threat for her is not there. Rest of it, I think she will handle it. She's equipped to handle it, I believe. But you know, Sadhguruji, if you think about what is happening in our country, even in what you call as a evolving society or civilization, you can see that, you know, there is still that huge focus on a male child. I mean, even our government is trying to incentivize families to have girl children, which is, okay, a very laudable thing, but then until it comes from within that a girl child is as important and as joyous as a male child, you are not going to be able to get away from these skewed gender populations that we have in different parts of the country. It is creating even more serious problems in societies and you also have a very poor representation of women in many, many parts of our ecosystem. We know that, you know, today if you look at politics, whether you look at boardrooms, whether you look at any, you know, aspect of our daily lives and the economy, there is a under-representation. Here on the stage there is equal representation. Yes, I agree with that. We must understand this, we have been an agricultural society for a very long time and we still are. Living in Bangalore, you may think you are a tech society, but no, India is still an agricultural society. Over sixty-five percent are still involved in agricultural activities. In that society, it's very important to have a sum. Variety of reasons for economic activities. Another thing is we valued our women big time at one time, but in the last ten, fifteen generations, we have been so, what to say, our poverty has taken over the society so badly that if a boy comes, by the time is eight, ten, they would put him to work. If a girl comes, you have to protect her and you have to get her married and all these issues. So it is more an economic bias in people's mind. They're afraid if I have two, three girls, I'm finished. This is the kind of feeling that the poorer segments of the society have. And this entire dowry system which was done for the well-being of the woman so that when she gets married and goes, she gets a portion of the father's wealth. That's the idea of the dowry which has taken on such an ugly form today. All these things turned against, but fundamentally discriminations have come not because of the gender basis, but because of economic basis, has gotten skewed into a gender process. Otherwise, particularly in this society, right from ancient times if you look at it, say, I will just look back and see, in every other civilization in the world, let's say beyond fifteen hundred or two thousand years beyond that, how many women's names are even remembered? This is a country where we have many women who are prominent women of those times who still today they're part of our lore, they're part of our culture. People are always talking about Sita, Draupadi, Parvati, this and that because we still remember them as prominent. If you have to remember somebody after five thousand years, they must have been significant, isn't it? Yeah, but I think, Sadhguruji, what I wanted to say was I completely agree with you that if you look at the agrarian society which actually constitutes a large part of our country, I can accept what you're saying. But my major concern is about our society. Why is it that we are still so biased? And you know, the question I want to ask you is, how do you basically change the societal attitude? Shouldn't… I mean, what does your message say for the men in the audience? Shouldn't you think that the men also have to change their attitude, whether they are a husband, a father, a son, you know, or whatever? I mean, shouldn't they be sort of, you know, playing their role in bringing about gender equity? I would rather talk to the ladies. What would you say to the ladies? Because one thing that women have to remember is, we must understand this that society, a social process is need-based because different people have different needs. That is how people come together and make a society and somewhere we form rules how to fulfill our needs without encroaching upon somebody else. So the uniqueness of being feminine should not be lost. In trying to be successful, don't become like men because men are desperately trying to find meaning in their life. In many ways, well, later on disillusionments may happen. But in many ways, at least at the beginning stage of life, a woman brings meaning to a man's life. It's very important for him. I'm saying, don't give up the fundamental strength of who you are in trying to succeed in another world. The playing field itself is changing and it will change further. As we already went through this, from a very physical world, we are moving into a cerebral world. As we move into the cerebral world, there is no need to fight for gender equality stuff. It will anyway happen. It'll find its own way. But we must understand this moving away from the physical world is only fifty years old. That's all it is. For fifty years, hasn't tremendous change happened? Has it not happened? It's happened. So, this will anyway happen. Only thing is right now, I feel the only thing that we need to strictly enforce is she should have the same opportunities in terms of education. Only education. Don't worry about the jobs and business and stuff, that will happen. Only in terms of access to knowledge and training, she has as much access as a man has. Another thing is because she is physically vulnerable, every society has to have absolute loss that her physical safety is well taken care of. Rest, don't worry, it will happen. That's it. So now I want to move on to another, you know, question which I thought I should ask you, which is really about morality and integrity. Okay, I mean it sounds very serious and very profound. But the reason I ask you about that is very often, you know, I feel that we use morality and integrity as interchangeable and yet to me they are not. To me, morality is something that is a social tenet, whereas integrity is something about yourself. It's about the discovery of truth in yourself. So what are your words on morality and integrity? I don't have both of them. I operate out of my humanity. Well said. I stand on the platform of my humanity and try to touch my divinity. This is how I live. So are you saying that morality and integrity are something that, you know… trying to be human? Yeah. No, but I still want to understand, we all sort of talk about morals and moral dilemmas and we also talk about integrity. So how do we… how does one basically try and understand these two very difficult words to understand? See, morality people think is a substitute for humanity. When human beings start behaving like beasts, we will try to impose some morals upon them to make them pretend like humans. With morality, you can correct the external activity of a person. You cannot correct the way he is, isn't it? You may curtail his thing saying that if you do this, they will fry you up there somewhere. You're getting fried in Bangalore itself right now. Or if you do whatever you think is good, you will get rewards elsewhere. This is a very simplistic way of looking at life. With morality, we have created pretentious societies, very pretentious and distorted in many ways. But when there is no law, there is no control, suddenly these very civilized human beings burst out and do the most horrendous things. Humanity means to be human is natural for you. You are a human being. You are not pretending to be one, hello? Are you pretending to be human or are you really human? You're really human. But the problem with being human is this, see you have never seen a bad tiger, have you? We don't know what is what. There is no bad tiger. If it hunts more efficiently, kills more efficiently, it's a very good tiger. A tiger or any other creature is incapable of being a bad one. It is also incapable of evolving itself into something else better because nature has fixed two lines for all these creatures. Within those two lines they range a little bit, but that's about it. They cannot go below the bottom line, they can't transcend the top line. With the human being it is like this, there is only bottom line, there is no top line, you could be any way you want. This is the struggle. Whichever way you are somehow it's not good enough. However you are somewhere, something is unfulfilled. So we must look at this more profoundly, rather than trying to come up with more words and try to fix it in different ways. Generally, in my understanding if I am wrong please tell me, morality means there are fixed values, thou shall not, thou shall not, thou shall not. Only those things are happening. Integrity means people have their own personal ethics, not going by the Bible, not going by some other standard, they have developed their own morality. They think this is my integrity, but this is also self-imposed commandments. But I am asking, why do you need a commandment? It's like this in Karnataka, I remember once, there were lots of bus accidents, so Karnataka government fixed governors on all the buses. I was travelling by these buses, I would see if it hits like sixty kilometers, suddenly the power drops in the bus, boom, peep peep it will do and boom it will drop. I thought this is the dumbest thing to do. Is it still there, the governors? I am not talking about the governor and the speed governors on the buses, is this still there? No. I thought this is just stupid, instead of training the driver better, you put a governor and the problem is many times when it was an incline, it won't move because there is no throttle. So we have to push it along with the throttle, then only it moves. So this is what you are doing to human beings by fixing morals, ethics, values. There is no value needed, no morality needed. What is needed is you must keep your humanity full on every moment of your life. When I say humanity, the uniqueness of this species that we call as human beings is we can be anyway, any moment. We can be worse than any creature on the planet. We can be more venomous than any venomous creature on this planet. At the same time, when we are willing, we can become godlike. Everything is possible right here. Now, when everything is in a range of things are possible within you, what is the aspiration of every human being if they had a choice? If they had a choice, would you want to be in the lowest possibility or the highest possibility? You must tell me I'm going to bless you right now. Huh? See, without any tutoring, without any psyching, they say we want to be the highest, it's natural, it's a natural urge to be at the highest possible level. But there are compulsive cycles. There are compulsive cycles because there are many aspects, now we are entering into your field. There are genetics, there is karmic substance, there are a variety of memories within them, which is evolutionary, which is genetic, which is karmic, which is on many different levels. In yoga we say there are eight types of memories. These eight types of memories, if you don't remain conscious, these will become compulsive forces of survival. If you do not bring sufficient consciousness to you, the memory that you have within you works like a software, by itself it will start doing things. It's like today you have a phone, if you do this, if you use a particular word five times, next time if you say the first alphabet, it just prints that without asking you. You say, no, that's not what I want to say. But it doesn't matter because you said it five times. So there is a memory like this, this is not against you. This is to make your life easier so that everything you don't have to think through. Some things are automatic, it's fine. But the most important thing that a human being has to do is to move from compulsive cycles of functioning to conscious ways of functioning. If this one thing happens, if one is operating out of his consciousness, that he or she does everything consciously, then you don't need any modality, you don't need any integrity, you will be fine because you will operate out of humanity. When I say humanity, when I said two lines, this means for every other creature, nature has drawn a boundary, what they can do, what they cannot do, how they can be, how they cannot be. For a human being, there is no boundary. If you can sit here and be all-inclusive, you're capable of doing this. But right now, not because of... because of biology, not biotechnology, biology, because you're so badly identified with your own biology, you cannot include anything as yourself. Right now, you know this, you both, you Venita, all these people are working for this in Bangalore city. People take their garbage and put it in the next house because their identity is purely biological. Their world is their family. This, we have suffered for a long time from the time of Dhritrashtra. You know, it's called Dhritrashtra syndrome. From then to now, still it's going on. My son is best. Still we are suffering. Human means this, that something within you has risen in such a way that your body, your physical self will become insignificant. It is not such a significant thing, human body because your intelligence, your awareness is far bigger than your physical body. If you're still identified too much with your body, then this gender business becomes too big. See, when people are constantly identified being male or female, what it means is you're unnecessarily identified with your reproductive organs. That's what it means. If you must identify with some body part, at least choose the brain. You know, on that whole subject of, well, you explained it beautifully, the morality bit, but a lot of people go through moral dilemmas. Like you said, you know, you don't do this, you must do that, you have all these commandments. And sometimes I feel certain moral dilemmas are really, really very difficult moral dilemmas. Like for example, you know, you talked about genetics. And if you think about today, young couples who, you know, have pregnancy tests and they find out that the child has a genetic defect. That means they're female? No. What I'm saying is, you know, when they discover that the baby has a genetic defect, then they are at this moral… I know, I know, but this is something which is quite a serious moral dilemma which a lot of young couples, you know, grapple with. Like for instance, you know, some couples say that, you know, should we bring this child into the world because it will suffer for the rest of its life. They feel selfish and say, we will suffer for the rest of our lives bringing this child with this genetic defect into the world. And others feel, no, this is God's wish that this child should be born. Now, you know, obviously there is no right or wrong in this, taking this decision. But a lot of this moral dilemma comes from this feeling that if we do this, it is wrong. If we do that, it is right. And they're going by moral tenets of society. How does one figure this out, this moral dilemma? What is your advice to such young couples? I didn't know it's a popular question. There are many aspects to your question. First of all, this God deciding, I have a very nasty joke, I'm trying to make it little lighter about God deciding about your child. Those who wish to have children, I want you to at least get this much figured out. It's your desires which make a child. Not God. This much fundamental, you must figure it out. And you can even time it when you want so obviously it's you, right? And suppose it so happens that child is not coming out normal but who is to decide what is normal? Suppose all of us didn't have one leg, we would think one leg is quite normal. Yes or no? All of us had only one leg. Would we not think one leg is quite normal and suppose one of these ladies had two-legged baby, we would think he's a freak. So we may... we need to kind of undo ourselves a little bit to not jump into conclusions as to what is normal, what is not normal. Anybody who doesn't look like you is abnormal. A lot of people think I'm abnormal. I think you're abnormal because you don't have a beard, every man is supposed to have it. Some of you are showing little samples. So what is normal, not normal is a very unnecessary thing to call for unless we see something which is congenitally in such a state the child is going to suffer immensely because of this, you must understand with all the other creatures on this planet if they are not fit to live, they will not live. You have never seen in nature an animal without legs or this or that surviving. In the very first few days it will go. It will not survive. Well, because we are in a more protected atmosphere we will make our children survive no matter what, but that no matter what also has to be toned down a little bit. If it is just to keep the medical economy going, somehow... I'm... somebody took me into this what do you call them, all these incubators and... what do you call that? Pre... early born... early... Yeah, early natal centers, the prenatal and natal... Yeah. Some of these children are born at five, five-and-a-half months. They're like this. They don't look human. They're keeping them there for over two-and-a-half to three years in the incubator and trying to save this child. This is not concern for life. This is the wrong kind of business. I'm sorry, I'm saying this, but I think it's completely wrong because when you know clearly this person is never going to be a full-fledged human being and going to suffer eternally and everybody around them are going to suffer because of this, you're trying to just go against nature and do something. But how to take this call? There must be how much intervention to do? There must be some kind of control on this. At any cost you want to keep them alive. We know today we have enough technology even if somebody is dead we can have their heart beating and prove they're alive for another ten years if we want. What... what is the point of this kind of technology? There is no sense to this. So about taking this call, it's a sensitive thing, it's not a joke. For the parents it's not easy. But at the same time I want you, all of you, those all of you who clap, who are pregnant right now, you must take this call. You must understand in this vast cosmos this very solar system is a tiny speck. In that tiny speck planet earth is a micro speck. In that micro speck Bengaluru is a super micro speck. In that you are a big man. This is a serious problem. The problem is we think too much of ourselves. See, in the process of generating life this is all coming because we are heavily identified with our own physical forms. Physical body is a mechanism. Because we have a certain level of thought and emotion and we've invested that entire thought and emotion in our biology we think this is something too much. This is just a mechanism. If you don't understand this when you get sick, if you go to the doctor, doctor opens up this, opens up that whatever you think is impossible he will do all that to you. Because he is looking at you like how your car mechanic would look at the car. What is working, what is not working, what to replace, Kiran is growing it for you. So this is just a mechanism. This mechanism in the manufacturing process itself sometimes can go wrong. When it goes wrong it doesn't matter how much emotion we have invested we must bow down to that and say, okay, they didn't go well. We must see. How else? But at any cost, because this is my child, at any cost it must survive. This will create a very unhealthy atmosphere in the world and it will bring much pain to you, much suffering to you, more than you to this unborn child trying to put this life through this world without the necessary faculties, without the necessary means to survive by themselves it's not going to be easy for that life. Forget about our convenience and inconvenience. For that life it is not good. So you have morality, integrity, everything from this you take this stance. Is this going to be good for that life or no? From this you must take a stance. It may sound cruel to you, I may sound very irreligious to you, irreverent towards life but if you have any reverence for life you must ensure that life means something. It is a full-fledged unit. Life is a complete life. It is not a half-life. Life means it must be able to stand upon its own strength and make things happen for itself. Maybe not all of us are equally competent but everyone is competent to live their life. This much competence must be there. This is how nature would be. Because we have created our own ecosystems of cities and medical industries and everything we can go another fifteen, twenty percent. Don't stretch it to hundred percent. Somehow with ten tubes stuck into my child I will make him live for hundred years. This is inhuman. This is totally inhuman because this is not good for that life. It's a torture. So you have to take that call. However hard it is. Is there some morality involved in this? No morality involved in this. It is just a practical sense of how to do life. Is it possible for this child let's say a child came without a head or half a head or something, something? Is it possible for this child to live even a reasonable life? If not a spectacular life, even a reasonable life, is it possible? This is an educated call you have to take. This should not be about because it's my child at any cost it must survive. You know Duryodhana was born like this. Do you know this? Duryodhana or she delivered just a meatball without a form. Then the story goes like this they cut it into hundred and odd pieces and put it into some kind of... What are the solutions you must tell me? Some amino acids and proteins and whatever, whatever. So each one became one one child and what trouble? So now coming to the ethics of modern science I think which is what I was very keen to discuss with you and you know that I come from a field called biotechnology which is a bad word in the vocabulary of many, many people because we are tampering with life. You know we are engineering DNA. I am also doing inner engineering. So this is a very, very... This is an amazing science this is an amazing technology but it is also a very controversial and sensitive technology and you know I want to start with a question that says look we actually embrace biotechnology when it comes to saving lives when it comes to genetically engineered drugs which is saving cancer patients many, many other types of patients who are suffering from debilitating diseases and yet we have this huge activism against genetically modified crops which is also saving lives by the way because you know there is enough data and evidence to show that genetically modified crops never killed people but hunger and starvation has killed many, many lives and today if we have solutions to actually feed these hungry feed the starving and we know that you know genetically modified crops can actually do a lot for our kind of country because you can you know have drought resistant crops you can have crops that grow in saline conditions and you know that the marvels of this technology are many but people are not willing to have a scientific debate people are not willing to look at data people are not willing to look at evidence they always want to look at long term absolutely guaranteed you know safety of a new technology how do we deal with this? I want your suggestions on how we deal with these kind of questions anything new people will resist there will always be first people who will resist are moral groups and other kinds of activism groups this has always been so anything new means they will resist not only in biotechnology area in any area nuclear oh not you don't have to go to that kind of very what to say revolutionary things even something you know why why does a Manzhu get stoned or socrates get poisoned or the Jesus get crucified simply because they're talking something new one little extra step you get you get killed so resistance for new things is not new to humanity they've always been resistant because lot of people think status quo is the answer for everything any change resist and we have a speciality that lot of people are specialized in that is for every solution they come up with a problem whatever the solution they will find a problem in the solution endlessly it's going on having said that at the same time see anything that concerns with the basic life-making process of human beings or plant or animal or whatever this we must tread little carefully I think generally the concern I know there are lots of people who are resisting simply because it's new that's different the main concern is commercial forces are leading the thing for commercial forces it is not even fair to expect that they've invested a certain amount of money and they have found something which will be very very worth you know really valuable in the marketplace and now you tell them don't use it because we are still thinking what it will do after a thousand years it's not fair for them but when commercial forces are leading everything because we have made economics the main force now commercial forces are being allowed to tamper with the basic life material of who we are there is a certain amount of caution that needs to be exercised is there an alternative I think non-commercial forces maybe government funded forces should invest heavily in research after it has been incubated well for a period of time it must come out when it is a commercial enterprise doing this because every day costs money every day is either pushing your balance sheet up or down so commercial aspects will take precedence over other things you can't blame them for that because they are there to do business so in this context we must be little more careful about growing more food we can grow as much food as we want if you keep the natural ecosystem the way it should be we destroy that and then come up with other kinds of hybrid answers which may be temporary solution but which can completely destroy everything for us for example right now in this country we have 1.3 billion people we have done many things we have done some really wonderful things we have done some very nasty things all kinds of things we have done there are a lot of achievements to show in the last 50 years for this nation we are on the way to the Mars many great business and enterprises have been built scientific discoveries have happened many many things have been done but one of the greatest things that we have done is without any support of technology or any great amount of infrastructure our farmers with traditional knowledge have managed to generate food for 1.3 billion people it is not a small thing because there is no infrastructure there is no technology just traditional knowledge is keeping them going but it will not keep them going that's why you're talking about this new additions but for this to happen in this land one main reason is we have a land where you can grow crops twelve months of the year very few nations in the northern hemisphere can do this we are one of them that we can grow crops twelve months of the year and we intercrop and in the same piece of land we are growing four to five crops in a year because of intercropping and all this this ability is being seriously depleted right now because the quality of the soil has been completely destroyed in the last twenty-five years simply because of technology recommendations that came twenty-five to thirty years ago they said all these animals these nonsense not needed all you need is a tractor and a bag of fertilizer everything is done for you I was also into farming at that time you will see you're trying to do this your neighbouring farmer just throws urea urea and urea and urea and his plants boom they come up like this yours are looking like this you look like a fool but you did all this now we know many studies are showing in the last twenty-five years the nutritional value of vegetables in this country has gone down by forty percent because soil can be replenished only by leaves from the trees and animal waste or we must all die these are three ways to replenish the soil that also when we die now people putting themselves in stone cases so that they don't become part of the soil no one of the most eco-friendly things you can do is when you die you're buried or burnt and part of the soil this you must do you know you shouldn't go away somewhere why I'm saying this is technology is also doing this people are making bookings that your body can be allowed to float in the space forever right now what is one concern which is going on people think it's a religious concern it's of no religious concern to me fortunately religion is only a human problem animals are not included but people are trying to get them also into the religious stage for example right now we are slaughtering millions of cattle and exporting it elsewhere what this means is you're exporting your topsoil almost everything that you eat except the fruits that come from trees almost everything that you eat is coming from the first four to eighteen inches of the soil on this planet just this much if you are going on exporting topsoil of this country in the form of meat or whatever what will you have in twenty five thirty years time already your nutritional value has come down so much the only way you can make the soil riches animal waste and this right now I am pushing for this that there must be a policy if you own one acre of land minimum four cattle you must have on the land not for its milk not for its milk not for the meat but for the dung which is the most valuable thing of an animal that it drops it all over the place this is how the land can be enriched trees you have taken out animals you are taking it out what are you planning so now you will tell me that in this pot you can grow all the grains that you need because of biotechnology I won't take it I know there are many many positives there are many many positives to the biotechnology we must use it carefully, sensitively but without culturing the social situation where we take care of our soil and on top of that we do something that's troubling us we fix something genetically troubling I am not against any technology technology if we don't use it's like saying we should not use our intelligence we must use technology but not taking away the base and trying to do on the surface this will happen when people jump into something because it's commercially right now good all kinds of modifications No but Sadhguruji I want to tell you you made a statement saying that you know yes commercial interests might always be suspect and that the government should actually start investing in technology but that is what is happening in our country the government is actually investing in this technology and yet there is an issue about accepting that technology so it's not as if it's only I agree in other parts of the world it's been commercial but in India for sure the government labs have also been partners in biotechnology I am glad it is so and if that is so I don't think we should excessively fear the little bit of activism that you see I think that much breaks are needed here and there they can't stop it if the government has invested money and there is sufficient data to show that this doesn't cause any serious damage or distortion it will anyway become a reality but some breaks breaks are okay breaks are good and I don't like breaks usually I only drive with my throttle but breaks are good you know sometimes so now let's come to a much more scary aspect of biotechnology so I am not only going to talk about the good things of biotechnology I am genetically modified you know yeah yeah all over sa it's about designer babies okay now if you think about it the whole thought of a designer baby is scary but if you think about saying okay I can actually make sure that the same case that I talked about that you know you are in this moral quandary about giving birth to a child with a genetic defect but yet you can have you know gene editing technologies to fix that genetic defect and you know actually give birth to a normal child so there is a good side of designer babies but there is also a very scary side of you know designer babies because like you said human beings you know don't necessarily know where to stop and you might want to have these super humans with the highest IQ you know this has been done even Hitler's time I think they try to develop right they try to develop these super humans and you know through various their experimental nasty and horrific experiments but that can also happen today and whilst you need regulations against such things happening you will still have people who will be able to do this maybe some countries will say why don't we you know indulge in these kind of technologies to create a super race in our country how do you deal with this? Kiran this is where it is when we think we can create a super brinjal or super cotton or super whatever super mouse, super cow super human beings natural progression of things isn't it? Yes it is but there is that moral no it is not moral it is about humanity again No I am not looking at it as a moral thing the thing is genetic engineering or modifying life the way we want it is not a new aspiration this has always been the aspiration of the human beings we have gone to such extent in this country in the past this is because they are trying to breed carefully like you are doing animal husbandry that you are trying to breed carefully like that they are trying to breed carefully which Hitler tried to do in 20th century forcefully it became ugly now we want to do genetic modification that is we want to deliver a child this aspiration of every parent we want to produce a child who is at least one step ahead of us which is a natural aspiration and it must be so next generation should be at least one step better than us isn't it? so for this we created an entire process from preconception to conception and post conception every day of this nine and half ten months how a child should be kept in the mother's womb there are many very clearly defined processes what you should do to deliver the best possible child in terms of health well-being intelligence there are established processes we have ignored all that now we are going for biotechnology what we are trying to do is the repetitive nature of the genetic imprint you are trying to take it and bring a new quality isn't it? there is substantial studies right now to show through proper practice of yoga, meditation and certain other processes you can distance yourself from the genetic imprint that you have and function is a completely new life I will show you this may be little hard for you to swallow very hard for you to swallow but you must come and see I will put certain people through certain types of initiations in twenty-four hours you will see the way their face is the very shape and form of their face will change simply because they have distanced themselves from the genetic process if you are not aware of this in this country when somebody walks the spiritual path first thing they will do is they will do rituals for their parents even if they are alive to distance themselves from their genetic material there are very established scientific processes science not as you know it in the laboratory science that can be operated from within that you do certain things to distance yourself from the genetic process so that you are not a repetitive life you are a new life new possibilities will arise I can show you thousands of people who are functioning way beyond their natural IQs that they have way beyond that they will function simply because they have distanced themselves from their biological imprints that they carry within themselves but doing this whatever you are talking about it will look like we are doing great service when we relieve somebody of a disease but we know that more than 50% of who we are is not us but some other organism 52% or something is supposed to be bacteria suppose they all reject us because we are too modified for them what will happen we definitely cannot live do you know all of you more than 52% of you is bacteria so suppose you modified yourself and the rest of the organisms which are supporting your life right now they protested you finished so when are they going to protest you do not know because we know from genetically modified crops every 18 months they have to remodify it because the bugs get mutated by themselves the brinjal and the cotton in 18 months they are again retuning it because whatever you have tuned it for the bugs have again mutated themselves so the bugs are becoming superbugs whether you are becoming superhuman or not the bugs are becoming superbugs and how are you encounter how are you going to encounter these superbugs I know scientific horror movies have produced a bug which is ten feet tall comes and eats up your child or something but if it cannot happen the bug need not grow in size if you can't kill it see if you can kill it by smashing it but if you can't mass kill it with your whatever you are doing sprays and antibiotics if this does not work just for let's say one year half the humanity will die isn't it we are dealing with superbugs these days not yet super enough if they become super enough answer for them I am saying if it takes one year for you to find the answer within that one year at least half the human population will be exterminated so when such things are there I I know it's it's a certain space where everybody wants to be up on somebody else but I think this is an area where we must go little slowly we should not stop but we must go gentle we must build data I still believe that we need to build we must build data no question but the veracity of the data takes time see in the last let's say in the last 25 years about human health how many times have the world scientists changed their opinion every year they are changing their opinion every year they are changing their opinion so if every year you are changing your opinion obviously you don't know what you are talking about it's about different scientific teams trying to question some other finding I am saying we don't have a full picture we don't have a full picture that's a fact when we don't have a full picture how many things we change we must be very very cautious we should not stop it is not out of fear it is out of concern and care we should not simply rush into it and regret it tomorrow now I want to come back to I can tell you this happened this happened in 2050 a bunch of bio scientists got an appointment with God they all went there and they said hey old man you've been doing quite good with creation but now everything that you can do we can also do it's time for you to retire so God said oh really what is it that you can do they said we can make life he said okay let me see a demo so they picked up some soil did this this this you should put the details I don't know anything and they made the form of a human baby and in ten minutes the baby meow cried became alive God said well that's quite impressive but first get your own soil so now I want to basically since everyone is here from Bangalore I want to come to you know something that really this plagues us every day and that is you know we are all so bothered about the decay that we are seeing in the city you know everything is looking shabby you know we are seeing debris all over the place we are seeing polluted lakes we are we've got a lot of problems in the city and everything has to do with us you know we can't keep sort of asking the government to do everything I mean after all if it's Swacha Bharat which is what we are all really really you know committed to we all sort of accepted the fact that yes by 2020 India must become a clean country we must have zero open defecation everyone I mean there is no debate on that and yet three years later if you look at what actually we are doing we are not changing our habits we still keep you know chucking litter all over the place we pollute our lakes I mean nobody seems to have any civic sense in this country they are making the lakes look like bathtubs so how do we get a sense of civic mindedness in our society it's very difficult you know many of us try to do it but we finally give up you know today we are taking pictures of people parking on footpaths which shouldn't happen we've tried all kinds of things we take apps we send it here send it there at the end of the day we almost just give up saying how do we deal with all these issues recently a certain photograph has been going around in the WhatsApp that is an Hanuman Jayanti somewhere on Mumbai Pune road somebody had served a proper meal for over hundred monkeys have you seen this it's been everywhere this photograph all of them are sitting on the parapet of the road you know the and somebody on banana leaves served for hundreds of these monkeys they are all sitting in one row and all of them eating from their leaf so someone asked me how is this possible have they photoshopped this I said no photoshop and then I tweeted saying this all it takes if you make sure everybody is well provided for the last right now everything is scarce when everything is scarce people are elbowing each other and doing some nonsense little more space is needed for human beings we are nice but we are just too many so these are facts that you should know better than me but in the beginning of twentieth century our number was only 1.6 billion today we are 7.3 billion in India in 1947 we were only 33 crores today we are 125 crores in seventy years four times reproduction four times over reproduction is irresponsible but this has not happened just because of excessive reproduction this has happened because in 1947 average life expectancy of an Indian was 28 years 28 you heard me not 78 28 today it is somewhere around 63 64 which is a wonderful thing to happen but when we what this means is we postponed our death simple arithmetic if we postpone our death should we not also postpone birth we have there was a time on an average most young women were getting pregnant by the time they were 15 or 16 today I think it's been pushed just over 20 or 1920 in that range average we have to push it to 35 then the first question that you raised about the gender issue if a woman does not deliver a child till she is 35 most of the time one thing is she will get well educated she will get professionally established and maybe she will get wisdom and not have a child so child is not a bad thing we all were born that way it's just that we are not an endangered species if you were a tiger if you were a tiger I would say let us have fertility clinics but you are human and you are doing too well when I see the fertility clinics my heart sinks because this is coming from a fanatism that only what comes out of your body can be yours it's a fanatism why can't why can't this person this person this person be yours why are they not yours this is what being human means this is what humanity means that if you are willing you can live here without any sense of boundary boundaries are not fixed upon you by nature it is an unconscious compulsive boundary that you are setting for yourself that means you have not explored the dimension of being human you are still trying to operate like a creature on the planet if you explore the dimension of what it means to be human you would see inclusion does not mean biology inclusion means consciousness if this comes if consciousness rises you will see we have hundreds of couples who are isha full-time volunteers and part-time volunteers none of them have children they've just chosen not to have because there are I'm giving them thousands of children millions if they want if they're ready so where is the need to biologically identify with one child I'm clearly noticing who is clapping and who is not it's okay so I'm thinking of something very adorstious for which I'll become super unpopular I'm thinking of instituting an award for all those young women who are healthy who are capable of having a child but choose not to have one because because whether you realize this today or not you think the problem is parking you think the problem is garbage you think the problem is health care no the problem is population there is no other problem absolutely well said and I see that we are running out of time but I want to ask you a final question before we turn it over to the audience you know you talked about technology and you know we know that technology of course also raises aspirations and I remember we grew up at a time when we didn't have phones we didn't have television we were very content with small things so we drove around in ambassador cars we were lucky if we had a landline and if we you know if we aspired for a telephone and we got a landline after three years we were very happy very content if we got a you know premier Padmini after the ambassador we were very content but today things are so different I mean it's a great transformation that we are seeing in our country you know you can choose any model you want of cars smartphones and yet you see that technology and aspirations you know are almost proportional to discontentment do you feel that is true no because they have a nice car the instant gratification we must have the next best thing they have a nice car but they can't drive because the road looks like a parking lot most of the time they park move, park, move, park that's how you are driving in Bangalore city so they frustrated they can't drive their dream car now this let's not take this position because this is unfortunate position that every generation takes about the next generation so my father thinks that I was unnecessarily too over dynamic his father thought so that at the age of twelve, thirteen he left his father and came out because he wants to become a doctor he thought that was a great idea his father was a merchant he thought being a merchant is not good he wants to become a doctor he did a great revolution but I am sure his father thought this is a worthless fellow instead of doing this trading he is going to become a doctor unnecessarily he leaves the house and goes to study now I aspire for something else my father thinks the same thing I don't want to do the same mistake with my daughter I only said this do whatever the hell you want in your life just do it well that's all if you don't do it well then that's a problem because not because you are not doing as well as somebody else simply because you are not exploring the full depth and dimension of who you are when you explore the full depth and dimension of who you are with enormous amount of technological skills you are not you are not you are not enormous amount of technological support obviously you will do much more but let's see this technology is there technology is there not because of technology we have aspirations because of our aspirations technology has come because we wanted to do more we came up with new ways of doing things now that we can do so much if you if all the people on this planet these 7.3 billion people if all of us become super active dynamic, industrious like you working day and night using all the modern technology this planet has only another 20-25 years left but 50% of the people are lazy they are the ones who are saving the world it is unfortunately the unfortunate reality in the world is this human intelligence which is saving the world it's not human love which is saving the world it's not human compassion saving the world human lethargy is saving the world not a good way to do things so before we explore see today we have become super human already we don't need any genetic modification because of our ability to do things thousand years ago what one man could do today one man can do simply because of the technological enablement that we have once we have this kind of power how we act how we operate what we aspire for what we do must be very conscious I'm not saying controlled it must be conscious once it's conscious you will do only what is needed nothing more nothing less right now humanity is still in a state compulsive mode of activity when you're in a compulsive mode of activity if we empower you more and more and more you will not only destroy this planet all the eleven planets in the solar system you will destroy why do you think we are going to Mars Thank you sir Guruji now I think we will take two questions from the audience Hi, my name is Poorti I am in my final year of biotechnology and listening to your talk I have many questions but for now I will just want to ask one so from what I study from what I've read biotechnology is here today because of animals such as mice and micro organisms such as bacteria but do you think that it is ethical to use these organisms which help us so much and like later kill them but we are here today thanks to them thanks to those small creatures and testing on those we are here today but is it an ethical thing to do Maybe you think it's not ethical but most of us wouldn't be alive here today if those things were not done in the past but today we have various technologies which allow us not to necessarily test it on these poor creatures there used to be lot of mice everywhere they were a nuisance anyway we were killing them in millions at one time so you also experimented them which is cruel but almost all of you who have been through even high school science you dissected either a cockroach or a frog or something yes, you nailed the frog to the wooden plank when it is alive you opened up its heart and you were very excited how its heart was beating believe me the frog was not excited about you looking into its heart but unfortunately that is how we learnt a few things that is how we did things and many of us I'm telling you with living in such concentrations in cities we are alive only because of these vaccinations and these medicines and everything many of us would have died for small things in the past small things this is why we must understand when I said the average life expectancy was twenty-eight years simply because a whole lot of people died when they were young because of small infections if a flu comes they will die very very small things people died today at least sixty percent of us here today are sitting here alive because of modern medicine you cannot deny that and it's a cruel process very cruel it's cruel to other creatures it's cruel to this creature also everything now the question is only shall we keep it within what we think there is no idea what we think is a practical limit or shall we just let it explode upon us this is the question my humble opinion would be we must keep it within some kind of practical limits if you don't keep this limit what happens what is the outcome of that will not be necessarily very pleasant and about cruelty to animals we are anyway cruel you understand we are very cruel people let's understand this because this is the very nature of life if this has to survive it has to take another's life now the question is only this are you doing this consciously or wantonly consciously if you do it you will do it only to the extent it's necessary if you do it unconsciously compulsively or wantonly you will do it to the extent it is completely unnecessary so with every aspect of our life what is can we stop eating whether you cut a plant or an animal or whatever it is life it suffers in some way the question is just this are we doing it to the extent that we need or are we doing it for pleasure or we doing it just wantonly without unconsciously this is all the question is because we as human beings can stand out from other creatures only when we function unconsciously otherwise we are just like them many times worse than them Thank you for this wonderful conversation Thank you very much