 Our next speaker is Bill Swearingen. Bill Swearingen is a hacker from Kansas City. Bill has been coming to DEF CON for a long time. He is a veteran of the Alexis Park and all these new people. But just because he's been coming here he hasn't ever spoken before. But believe it or not a lot of you may have felt the influence of Bill Swearingen before. For example if you drive past a construction information sign and you think every single time that should say zombies ahead and I know how to do that, that's this guy. If you live in a non-major metropolitan area and you have a hacker space or have been to a hacker space that is in part this guy. He helped co-found the Cowtown Computer Congress in Kansas City a few years ago. What else? If you have come to a little thing that we call SecKC, which is the world's largest and the greatest monthly InfoSec meetup, that's this guy. But probably the largest reach that this man has had. How many people in here are either still drunk or hungover off of booze that somebody else paid for? This guy is the is the better looking part of DEFCON parties. So this is Bill's first time. This is a banger of a talk. I've seen this thing before. You guys are in for a real treat. Give my friend and yours Bill Swearingen a big welcome to DEFCON. Yeah so Juris, thanks for that great introduction. You actually mentioned some of the things I want to talk about. So this is my 15th year at DEFCON in a row. And last year I decided it's time for me to start giving back. And so those of you that have attended and those kind of things, I would say that you do the same. Start giving back to this community. Okay so who's ready to hack some cops? Okay so I'm going to tell you that right away this talk is illegal. Okay and it's illegal in all 50 states. And so I am a little nervous being in front of you all and it's a little bit not about speaking in front of you. It's not really about the legality of the talk. It's really that I run with the SecKC crew and they're pretty wild. And I see a lot of them right up front here and I'm a little bit nervous of what they're going to do. And so as I'm thinking about it, right. So this morning while I was thinking okay how's this going to go, I realized that there's probably going to be a few times in this talk where people yell, Bill you suck. Right. And so about 50% of those time I expected those might actually be my friends. So just take that and take that as it is. I don't think that guy was my friend. Okay but I am serious. So some of the things we're going to talk about today that if used are a federal offense. Okay and so what I'm here to do is just kind of talk about it and explore it and explain how they work. Right. I'm going to try and do a good job and explain what is a good idea to do and what is a bad idea to do. But I'm going to leave that up to you for your own interpretation. Okay. And also I do realize that the talk that I'm about to give is very US-centric. And so when we talk about the technologies that are used and the laws that we will break, you know, they're US. But so for those of you that traveled a long way to get here to attend DEF CON, I think that the technologies will translate pretty well but do a lot of your own research about your own laws and go from there. Okay. So given the topic and the nature of this topic, I'm not exactly sure if I will or will not get arrested during this talk. And so I have consulted with my attorney and everything like that and so but I figured just in case it'd probably be good to go ahead and post the slides up right now. And so there they are. And I wanted to give a shout out to Seth Casey. Let's hear it one more time. Seth Casey. All right. Next, if anybody has any questions after the talk or whatever, please see if I am in jail. And if I am, bail me out and I'll be happy to answer any of those questions. So Benson already kind of talked about I've been in this space before. So about 10 years ago, I owned a website called iHacked. And one of the things that I released was a device that would trigger the emergency preemptive devices that would turn street lights green, right? And it was awesome, man. It was really cool. We'd be driving around, you know, just like it was green lights all the way and you can go as fast as you want. And I got a lot of attention about it. I got interviewed by, you know, a lot of a lot of different media. Wired was one of them. And I thought that was that was pretty cool. But so I learned, I've grown since then, you know, that was 10 years ago. I've learned a few things. First, you know, you really probably should consider talking to the media about committing federal offenses, right? That was that was that was not that didn't actually work out very good for me. And also, it was really interesting that the quotes that came out of that, right? So so I was giving a very technical, you know, interview to to wired, you know, and talking about 555 timers and the way that that we can interact with with the preemptive devices. And my quote that I got was that I take the highway to work, right? All right. But but more importantly, right? Don't talk publicly about committing felonies. All right. So it turns out that it is a felony to sell by or use a Mert, you know, so the preemptive device punishable by up to two years in prison with a maximum fine of 10k or both. So, well, I'm out of jail and fines are paid. So let's do this again. All right. So here's the thing. I am a hacker. I've always been a hacker. I'll always be a hacker. And when I think about what that means to me and why and how I ended up this way. And I really do think it really kind of goes back to my dad, right? So my dad was an engineer. I mean, he spent the time with me as I was growing up to question and try to understand and explain in the way that things work in our world, right? And just question how it works. So I've spent my life, you know, very curious trying to understand how do things work and why, right? And how can I make sure that that I am in a position that I can influence those devices to make my life better, right? So I want to take advantage of my world in any way possible. And I think that as hackers, this is our game that we can win. So before I get started, I do want to read an excerpt from the hacker manifestor real quick. And it says, and it just clicked off, but it says, I'll paraphrase here. But yes, I am a hacker. And my crime is that of curiosity. I do not judge people by how they look, but what they do and what they know, right? And so I think that really is a good ethos as hackers to have. And I hope that our community stays strong that way. Okay, please. If there are any local or federal law enforcement in the audience, please raise your hand. And I understand that that that that might not be you probably don't want to do that. But it's for a reason. So so first, I'm going to be using some audience participation. And you do not want to be selected as that audience member. So any any local federal law enforcement, please raise your hand. Okay, I got a couple. How about any undercover? Any undercover? Okay, right. Yeah, so I can't believe that worked. But but I do believe that I just won spot the Fed right there. Okay. But really, really why I want to do that is I don't want to live in a society without laws. I really do respect what you do. I'm your mission. And that's not the point of this talk, right? And so I don't want you to feel like targeted or or you know, or anything like that in this talk. It's really about the technology and understanding and being very curious about how that works. Okay. And I will tell you for specifically for those that that are in law enforcement, there's going to be a couple slides in here where you get a little nervous. And it's okay, like just trust trust me, we'll get through it together. I you know, and everything's okay. So what we're talking about, it just gets right up to that spot. And then I stopped. So trust me on it. Okay, so storytime. I've always also been a speed junkie. I mean, if you take a look at some of the things that we've done, you know, when primitive traffic lights, those kind of things, just always kind of been a speed junkie, fast cars, motorcycles, etc. I love them, right? But what I don't enjoy is all the speeding tickets to go along with it. And so a few months ago, I'm sitting on the side of the road with some blinking lights in my mirror. And I started thinking, like, what is radar? Like, how does this work? How can how can I outsmart this? How can I how can I take advantage of my position to make sure that that I'm going to win this game? And an interesting thing is, as I'm sitting there, I thought about a story my dad told me one time, and this goes back when I was very little, he told me that that that he had some friends that were taking apart microwaves and using the magnetron in the microwaves to to to jam radar. And you know, as a kid, I didn't really understood what that meant. I understand how that worked. I didn't really understand. But for some reason that that's stuck with me, right? So that little that story that that my dad told me is stuck with me. And so as I'm sitting there, I decided, Well, I should probably figure that out. Okay, so it turns out that that radar works just by measuring the Doppler shift of sound waves. So we've all seen that before, right? We've heard that sound and and and probably everybody here under has a very basic understanding of how radar works, right? We know that a signal is sent is reflected and it comes back to, you know, to the sending device and it measures our speed, right? And what's really interesting is when you start looking at how like how does this work? It's actually very basic, right? So when you take a look at the Doppler shift and the way that we measure that, what we can see is that police use high frequency radio waves and they're actually microwaves actually to bounce off objects. And then they measure the shift using this equation in the in the return frequency to measure the speed. Now, what's really important, and I'll keep calling this out during this talk. But this is a very important point here. Radar measures speed. Okay, so what does radar measure? Come on, tell me speed. Okay, that's very important. And you'll understand here in a little bit. And so in here, you can you can see the equation. But basically, you know, you can you can read that they measure that the change in frequency over the scent frequency, and it equals two times the velocity of the target over C was constant of time. And now that I reckon, you know, I do understand that now that I've shown the math, we can kind of all go home, right? Because everybody understands what we're going to do, right? I get that. Okay. But okay, so let's shift gears a little bit. And before we start hacking, let's look at how police use radar. And I do want to say I apologize for the quality of this, the image here, the video here. But 100% of the police polled would not let me film them radaring people. And they started asking a lot of questions. And so I left I found this one on YouTube. Okay. But one of the one of the really neat things about RF radar, is that the officer could kind of just set it and forget it just look look at the video. It's just sitting there. It's radaring the cars as they go by. And he and the officer doesn't have to do much, right? Also, what's incredibly neat about RF based radar is they can drive while they're doing it. We've all been radared by by police, you know, passing by those kind of things. And what's neat is the way that these radios work is they're transmitting this frequency, and they're receiving signals back from multiple objects, right? The device can determine its current speed by the reflections that are coming back from stationary objects, like trees, or signs, right? Or you know, other station buildings, other stationary objects, and then calculate the speed of the moving objects based off of that. I mean, some some of the more advanced radar systems that police can use can even track multiple targets and even show which lane of traffic that they're in. I just think that's really cool. You know, I think that that's very interesting that the way that this technology works. And as we as we really start to dig in and understand, okay, what is was happening with with our radar, this slide is also very important. So a very tiny fraction of the signal scent is actually reflected back to the police radar system, right? The rest of the RF signal continues to go on bouncing off of trees, can scattering off the car, you know, but but it continues to go. And that's that's really all I'm trying to show in this slide is that it's just a little tiny fraction of what is sent that's returned back. Okay, so so police radar, it really comes in three major forms. And you guys all probably know this, right? So but this slide, if I were to take a picture of slide, it'd be this one. And you'll understand why but but X X band is was kind of that the de facto back in the day, right? So it's kind of like the older, the older radar systems that really aren't used much in in today's next is K band. And believe it or not, K band is is used worldwide. And it but it is the most commonly used radar in the United States. So if you were to take, you know, if you were to take a poll, K band still remains the default radar system. It's also classified as the grocery store band, because it's the same frequency that the doors at grocery stores use. And so if any of you guys have radar detectors and seen false alerts, it was likely K. K a is is the new that the new multi mode version of K. It's the it's the emerging system. And I mean, it's definitely in use around. Now, just there's also the KU band. Do I have any KU any people from KU? All right, so so KU band exists, but no one's ever paid a ticket for that. So, right? Yeah, I'm actually KU band is is is the European Ka. So for anybody in Europe, I have the I have the signal or the frequency is there. Okay, so does everybody at least have a basic understanding of what radar is? Okay, um, does anybody remember what does radar measure? Okay, thank you, that's very important. I really only wanted to make sure that that point was driven home. Okay, so it's time for a live demo. Okay, what should we not do at DEF CON live demos, but we're going to give it a shot. Okay, so I do want to take a volunteer up on the audience. And as I was looking across one person's kind of sticking out, I have sir, would you please join me on stage? Oh my god. That's the other half of DEF CON parties right there. Okay, so what we're going to do the demo that we're going to show is that I'm going to give our Mr. Police Officer here a radar gun. I'm going to walk towards him and I am going to return the same frequency that he is sending to me, which should indicate that I am standing still. Okay, then I am going to slightly adjust the frequency sending. And I will stand still and I will indicate that I'm moving. And I realized that I don't have any good way of demonstrating this to prove to you that this happening. So you're just gonna have to trust me that this wasn't all lies. Okay, good there. Okay, so I have two different versions of radar guns here. One just commonly off the shelf radar system, and a Hot Wheels one. But it turns out the Hot Wheels one was a little bit easier to modify for my needs. Oh, and if there are any people from the FCC here, I've got you know, I don't want to tell you that that it's all good. I stayed within the legal limits. Okay. Okay, so the first demo is going to be you holding down the button, radaring me, I am going to return the same frequency to you. And hopefully if all goes well, you will not get a reading. Here we go. Okay, you ready? We believe you. Okay, now on the second, the second demo, what I'm going to do is I'm going to slightly adjust the frequency of this gun. And what what I'm doing is now using the Doppler shift because I know the exact frequency that that gun transmit, I am going to return a signal that says I'm going a certain speed. So 111 miles an hour. But all right, you want to do one of those? All right, it is five o'clock somewhere, right? Okay, this is where it gets good. Oh, man, that was good. Okay. So can we do the same thing to please radar? Yep. We could build a device that says and transmits that we are always going 65 miles an hour. Okay, since we know the vehicle speed that we want to go, we just have to solve the equation for two other variables, right? And that would be the frequency that that that's sending to us. And and well, I guess that's it, I have to solve for one and then and the change the change of frequency from there but using the using the math. And so it turns out that if I needed to to to defeat X band radar and say that I'm going 65 miles an hour, all I have to do is transmit at 10.5 gigahertz. I don't have to do any kind of a special encoding. There's no packets is truly just a microwave signal at 10.5 gigahertz. If I would like to do the same to K band radar, which once again is the most commonly used radar in the world and the US, all I have to do is transmit at 24.12 gigahertz. And that will return that I'm going 65 miles an hour. If I would like to so so k is a little bit different. I mean, it's a multimode transmission. But believe me, if you were to transmit at 33.8, you're going to get away. Okay. And as I was doing the math here, I started to think, Okay, remember my dad? You remember a story about the microwave? Did that work? And it turns out it did. If we would have had our microwave oven transmitting back in the day when they were using X band radar, the cops would have seen that I was going negative 97 million miles an hour. Okay, raise your hand if you know where this is going. Yeah, all right. Well, here we go. So the interesting thing, though, is so let's take that 65 mile an hour example. We have a little bit of a problem with that, right? So if I was always transmitting 65 miles an hour, or if I was always transmitting at a certain frequency, I've already shown you that that some of those frequent their ranges, right? And the calculation matters. But but really that the biggest problem is, is if I was always going 65 miles an hour, what happens when I go through a school zone, right? And, and we don't actually know what frequency the police radar is sending. Well, friends, I gotta tell you, we live in interesting times. So we live in the future, right? The world's information is at our hands right now, right? And we can do with it as we please. And the newer radar detectors, specifically the Valentine one in the escort 360 detect the radar signals about two to three miles ahead and via Bluetooth can share exactly which frequency we're being radar with. Do you understand? Okay. So real quick, I do want to give a shout out to try wolf. Thank you so much for where you are. There she is for finding she was able to find me a very consistent location to run some tests would be a good way. Testing. Yeah, perfectly legal, official business. Okay, I went one, two, four. Okay. So all we need to do is we would just need to build an app that knew exactly what the current speed was the current speed limit, using the roads API, a way to detect what frequency that we're going to be radared in about two miles. The current generation of radar detectors do this. And then calculate the frequency of the speed that we wish to go based upon the current speed limit and transmit, right? All we need a very, very small processor to do this. You know, up here, I'm showing an ESP 8266. We don't need much to do that. The one of the one of the issues is that currently that the common commonly available strs, there are software defined radios that that are available to us currently aren't working in that high frequency or microwave space, right? So so that they're they're actually much lower on the spectrum. But if you take a look at the hardware that it would take, and just even the way that that str is progressing, we could build this device very, very trivially for about 700 bucks. Okay, right now. And that and most of that most of that cost would be around the str, right? And the high frequency transmission. But but the FCC is not going to want you to do that. So the FCC is very strict about radar jamming. And they've actually been illegal since 1996. That means that anyone that that that uses or sells the devices, you know, could, it could be a federal offense, right? And they are serious about it. And so and not only that, like, they're so serious that you're not even able to, like, they are so concerned about radar jamming, that you're not even able to advertise, right? So it's actually against the law to advertise radar jammers, not even just use or or sell. And so and right now, when you take a look at it, you know, $700 device, it's really not that cost effective. Anyway, yet. I mean, it'll get there. And knowing the way that we can do this, and when those devices become available, that's when you can make a good decision. All right. So so the FCC won't let us speed, you know, or let me be me. So let's see what other effective countermeasures do are available to us. And they're and they're the common things that they're the common things. But but if you have not used the radar detectors, the current generation radar detectors, they're tremendous. So so earlier, I showed you how how that the the radio frequency continues to scatter, right? It continues to go and it continues to bounce around on the current generation of radar detectors are picking that up very, very good about two miles and ways is really good. But the problem with radar detectors, the problem is that they suck when it comes to detecting laser, right? So you've probably heard that the radar detectors today, when you get hit with with the laser, all you're going to do is that just tells you that you're going to get a ticket, right? And most people probably feel like the cops are using laser anyway. Well, we'll slow down trigger, because we've got some neat things to talk about. So the FCC doesn't even regulate the light spectrum. That's done by the FDA. So so let's hear for light, come on light. And it also turns out that that these laser guns are very different than their RF cousins. They use an eye finder to single out a specific target. Okay. And if you take a look at the picture I have here, you'll notice that that there's two lenses, one for one that's the transmit that's the smaller lens, and then one to receive that's the larger and that'll be important here in a second. And what's really interesting and what what I love about laser is the officer has to treat it like a weapon. It has to be they have to be stable. They have to point. They have to single out a target. And they have to find a reflective surface on your car to get a signal back. Okay. So generally speaking, what they're after is they're looking for those for your headlights or your license plate or those sweet, sweet, fancy, blingy grills, right? And here's what an officer sees when they're targeting your car. What you can see in this video is you see an officer trying to get a lock on a car. I mean, the second one, it's a little bit harder to see when they do. Okay. But because laser is regulated by the FDA, lasers have to be a class one laser. That is the same class as a laser pointer. Laser guns are laser pointers. Okay, they have to be I safe, which means that pretty much, you know, the amount of reflected laser that's coming back to the police officer is very, very little. Okay. Also, because it's regulated by the FDA, they are restricted to the the the actual frequency of laser that they can use, they have to use an I safe laser, and they they have standardized on 904 nanometers. This is an invisible laser beam. But what's great about this is it's standard. There's one. And it's very weak. And we can buy them too. Now, another thing, what does radar measure? Well, laser does not measure speed. Laser measures distance. Okay, super important slide here. I'm going to give you guys time to write the equation down. Like if you you know, if we have any math majors, you can, you know, kind of like tell people, you know, explain how this works. But speed is is a result of distance over time. I saw somebody take a picture of that slide. Okay, now, now the issue is that laser guns, when they when they do measure distance, they're doing it at a rate that that's that's a very aggressive usually around 100 to 200 measurements per second. And so that really kind of goes back to by the time your radar detector has gone off, the laser gun has already acquired your speed. And in fact, many times over, right? And that's the calculation that the, you know, the gun is using for distance. But here's where it gets interesting. Okay, here we go. All right. It turns out that in about two thirds of our come country, represented by the green states that are super cool, laser jamming is perfectly legal. The yellow states are not as cool. And I just literally don't know what the fuck is going on in Virginia. So we have a couple options. This is the one that I'm going to go with. It's not really effective, but it's hilarious. And it makes it very hard for the police officer to get a lock on my car. Okay, or, or, or we can attack the gun. Let's attack the gun. All right. Here we go. So first, we have to know exactly how these laser guns work. And before we get started, I'm going to show you an example of timings. Okay, so the timings that we're going to talk about here will will not be for every gun, but the frequency that we're using is and what's and what I want to met under want you to understand is that once you understand how they work, you will understand how to attack every single one. It only comes down to a matter of timings. Okay, so the things that are really important here are the pulse width, how long the laser is on, and the period cycle, which is how often it shoots. So in this demonstration, I show a pulse width 12345 pulse, pulse, pulse, pulse, pulse, those are pulse width, right, and the period cycle of a five millisecond period cycle. Okay, you'll understand here in a second. Okay, but this part gets really important. Okay, so when the when the gun sends a series of pulses, what is expecting is a return. Okay, and that return measures what does anybody remember? Booze. Distance distance. The pulse measures distance. Okay, so when your car gets hit by the first pulse, does that officer have a lock on your speed? No, no, they only know how far away that car is. It's not until the second third, right, you know, until they can start that gun can start getting a lock on on on your speed, right. And so that's why why the why the why they measure so many times in one second, 100, 100, 100 to 100 to get your speed. Okay, so let's go ahead and zoom into this pulse period. And let's talk about some countermeasures. Alright, so these red lines indicate pulses from the gun pulse, pulse, pulse, okay, everybody good. Alright, and it expects to get a return pulse, return. Okay, but we have a five millisecond window that we can return our own. Okay, and what does late laser measure? Distance. Okay, so it does not measure speed, right. So if we were to return a pulse before the reflected one, we can tell them how far away we are. Alright, so what I'm going to show you is a brute forcing method. So just imagine driving around knowing exactly which frequency you're going to be lasered with it's always the same 904, right, and every one millisecond, putting a pulse. Okay, so what now the interesting thing is in your brain, I know where you're going because I went the same way as well, if I turn, if I turn an immediate, an immediate response, am I telling the cop that I'm going 97 million miles an hour? No, no, what I'm telling them is that I'm very close, right, I'm 100 feet away. But then they get another one, he's 100 feet away. Then they get another one, he's 100 feet away. I'm going zero. Right? Yeah. And so most of the guns, believe it or not, so there's probably I don't know nine or 10 different models of laser guns on the market. This method comes back with an error message, just a simple brute force, one millisecond pulse will return an error message to the gun. Now, there are a few models that that have implemented countermeasures to countermeasures. And we'll talk about that here in a second. So, so commercial, so some of the newer guns that what they will do is they will they will recognize I sent one pulse out and I got four back, right? So that's that's not right. So they'll they'll actually laser shift, like they'll shift their pulse width to account for that to find an empty spot in the return the return signal. But but we can counter those two, right? So once we understand how the gun laser shifts, what is expected result, we can shift our our response to that just as easily. Now what's interesting is because of the pulse width, and the timing, we can identify the gun by the second pulse. So when we get once, and then we measure how long did it, you know, so then we move immediately into brute force mode, right? Then we receive another one. Now we can identify exactly which gun we're being targeted with. And we can implement counter measures from there. And so I'll go through those here real quickly. So a countermeasure. So what you're seeing here on the screen, the red lines indicate a pulse from the from the laser gun. The orange, the orange indicates our reflection. And the green is what we're returning to the gun. So what we can do is we can vary our own returns, right? So imagine if we if we understood that we have a five, five millisecond window to return, that the first time we return a very early signal, we're 600 feet away. Right? And then on that second pulse, we've identified who the gun is, we know that we know exactly which gun we're being targeted with. And we can move into we can move into countermeasures that but we then say that we're further away, perhaps, you know, 1000 feet away. Now to that gun, we're going in reverse, right? And then we can continue on with strategies like that that they continue to even bypass even the most laser guns. And commercial laser jammers are already doing this. There's a couple, there, there is a couple different commercial products that you can purchase that are already that are already implementing these countermeasures. And so I just want to let you know that those are available. Okay, so a few years ago, I released a tool called catch it's an ESP based Wi Fi hacking tool. And, and you know, and basically what what I've done is like, okay, let's let's build on that platform. Let's continue to stay with the ESP 82 66. It's a build platform that that I'm very comfortable with that uses the Arduino and the Arduino platform. And we can and we can build off of that. Well, so what I'm going to release here is is not to catch you. And so, so what not to catch is it's an ESP 82 66 based laser jammer. It's based on 12 volt circuitry for easy auto automotive installation. And it uses on the same nine, nine 40, not there should be nine or four, but it had it implements brute force mode, meaning that it's pulsing at a one millisecond pulse rate, that will bypass 80% of the laser jammers that are in use right now. It will not jam that the more advanced dragon eye systems that that that implement countermeasures to brute force mode. However, you know, we're doing this open source, right? And so, because because commercial, commercial jammers exist, it should not be it shouldn't be too difficult for us to reverse engineer the pulse cycles that that those more. Actually, I don't know if that's illegal or not. Let's not do that. Let's build around. Okay. So wireless connectivity Android app. It's legal in some states, right? Remember those green states? Oh, I forgot to mention, I don't know if you saw that but on that that map where where laser jamming was legal, Colorado wasn't on there. And I'm like, Come on, Colorado. I thought you're cool. Like I just can. It also can lay it can emulate laser guns. So you can test your your own. You can test it. You can you can test your your radar detectors, etc. Yeah, and and turns out Mert mode work work okay to which would be green lights. But that's a super bad idea. And probably probably shouldn't do that. Okay, well, so I'm just gonna tell you like not to conscious freedom. And this is how we we can take control of any systems that that are targeting us. We Hey, audio guy is gonna get louder in a second. Just FYI. And I just want to say go America, except for Virginia, because I don't know what's going on there. So real quick, this is kind of what it looks like a bill of materials super simple. We're looking at an ESP 8266 and an LED array essentially and a 12 volt circuit. Cost is eight bucks. So so code's available now. It's kind of janky. But that's how it goes def con. And I actually meant to bring one. I have I have one here. But I broke it yesterday when we were planning for the talk. I know, Bill, I know. So seriously, you know, so it is being released open source, the brute force mode works. I, I, because I tested I live in Kansas legal there. And, and so you know, really, there's only round one, I'll continue to post code. And I would really expect or I would really hope or and appreciate if anybody would like to help me build a fully open source laser jammer that competes with with the commercial grade equipment. So with that, guys, thank you very much. I had a great time. I really appreciate it.