 We're working with Homeshare, Vermont, and Burlington Business Association, and Homeshare is looking at putting together a guide as well that would help people walk through that process locally, because it can be really daunting, because you have to remember the people who are building ADUs, they're not developers, they're home owners, and they can be very immune to this process, so navigating that can be challenging for many people. So has Homeshare, Vermont gotten involved in ADUs in the past, or do they consider those separate units, which is really not a Homeshare? No, they do, they see a tremendous amount of potential for ADUs, so they're really supportive of them, because a lot of people who want to participate in Homeshare, they still want to have their own space, and they don't necessarily want somebody inside of the home, and they, you know, because maybe perhaps the Homeshare arrangement is helped with transportation, or grocery shopping, or maintenance, things like that, so it can be a really nice living situation. Do you know the impact on property taxes when someone converts their house to a or their house to an ADU? To an ADU. Because they are automatically reassessed with the value of the house. I'm sorry, I don't know. No, I'm sorry, I'm going to choose whoever it's that is. I'm sure the assessor at some point will come out because it's a type of renovation, yeah. So I have a couple of other resource materials that if you're interested in them, I just don't want to load you with more paper, but this is the, it's called Making Room, and it's the change in demographics across the country. There's some nice national maps with Vermont stats too, so, but this is, I found this publication came out about a year ago, extremely helpful, and then we also created the ABCs of ADUs. So there's some great visuals for people to see how the different ways that ADUs can be built, either the internal conversions or the standalone ones. Is that specific for Vermont? No, this is just a broader audience, yeah. They're both national publications. But useful? Useful, I think so. So, okay. I'll send these this way. Thank you. That's my ideas. That's my idea. You already acted on this, so you're way ahead of the game. You got it. This one's heavy. Oh, here you go, my dear. We didn't measure the weight of yours. I know, I know, sorry. Give you a workout, right? Oh, I like this one. I'm ready to move into one of these right now. Yeah, I'm ready. After going through this stuff with our mothers, I am so dumb with things. And here's, I can pass around to a copy of my testimony as well. Thank you. There you go. So, tell us about your experience in Burlington, where things are, where things are going, Are you focused mostly on Burlington? Are you working on this in other places around? Our focus has been primarily in Burlington. We have, as I shared with you, we've been working with the mayor's office and other stakeholders and some select city counselors as well. We brought out, we've been working with a consultant called Orange Plot. They're from Portland, Oregon, Eli Spivak. He has been working with us to take a look at the ordinance in Burlington, to look at ways that it could be improved to be able to encourage more, the building of more ADUs. And so the ordinance passed out of the planning commission unanimously back in December. And then it passed its second reading last night before city council. And so it'll have a public hearing, I think mid-February they're looking at. I think the second or third week of February. And then it'll go for third reading before city council. And they are looking at removing the parking requirement. Yes, allowing for the permitting of it through administrative review and not through conditional use. They are looking at changing the 30% to a cap at 800 square feet across the board. A cap of 830. 800 square feet. Those were the three big ones. We're still, we're still hopeful that perhaps we could get them to waive some of the permitting fees for a short period of time to be able to encourage the building of more ADUs. But that, that one is uncertain still. How does that work now, do you know? The permitting now, well there's been, there's been some cases. So in Portland, Oregon, they waived, they had a pretty significant impact and permitting fees in Portland, Oregon. And they waived those for a set period of time. And they saw a significant increase. I could get you those numbers. I don't know them off the top of my head. But they did see that having a significant impact in the building of ADUs. So is a permitting fee in Portland based upon how much money you put into that? No, there's a number of different types of permits and impact. And the impact fee isn't, I want to say the impact fee is around $1,500 to $2,000. But there's other, there's other permits. Perhaps Chris or Jacob could address the list of permits that are required in Burlington. We didn't do Burlington. We didn't do Burlington. We might have the list. We might have the list. In fact, we didn't grant it under square foot. Okay. And about $2,000. And then there's a permitting fee for based on square footage, I think. As well as DPGALP. So is $2,000 for permitting fees? Yeah, like more. In Burlington. And to build 800 square feet, to renovate 800 square feet in Burlington, roughly costs $200 to square foot. Yes. So it varied. Inside the building it'd be cheaper than, you know, fixing up the profession. Work is work. Right. That's $160,000. $2,000. And that was our point was, like, it's a disproportionate cost. You build a house or, you know, you get more for your money, building a house for two plagues. Maybe not a building. You can't build that house. Probably a building that's $160,000. For the fees, that's our point, is that you can't do anything. Even if the fee was $5,000, it's not even 10% of them. I mean, it's like, it's just over 1%. So the expert that you've been using from criminal art is focused on the Burlington ordinance. ARP have, like, other ideas, you know, generic kind of ideas to promote ADUs, other than the ones that are specific to the Burlington ordinance. If you go, if you have chapters around the country doing similar things, or they say, here's the ideal statute to deal with ADUs. Yeah, we do not have a model statute, but we do have recommendations, and which are with some of the ones that I have gone through. So removing the parking requirement, providing, allowing for administrative review versus conditional use, you know, addressing the square footage cap. That one's big because, you know, it's unfair for small homes, and, you know, it's more favorable for larger homes. So those are some of the recommendations that we support that would encourage more ADUs. And I think, you know, the other pieces after legislation is providing some workshops and some opportunity for people who are interested in building ADUs to be able to participate in workshops because they are homeowners. And so being able to walk through that process with them, I think, is really helpful. Do you have a notion of your membership in Vermont, and it's demographic? How many, what percent of them own versus rent? I would have to look that up and get back to you. Because you guys collect a ton of data. We do. Yep. And you're a great resource. And it would be interesting, I think, for us to, I even have my membership card here. So rental versus homeownership? And anything else from their data that would be interesting to have? Because they have a ton of data on this demographic for us if the Economic Development Committee independent of this issue. I'm not sure if it's data, but around the world, the use of ADUs in other countries, how that has dealt with informal caregiving and stuff like that. Absolutely. Strikes me that this isn't really a new concept. No, it's not. I'm bad. Absolutely. People live together with intergenerational family members. And it's only actually in the 20th century that that model has changed. And now, especially as it's going back, it's like what goes around comes around. Yeah, it's a traditional housing type that's reemerging. I think treating ADUs the same way we treat single family homes will help encourage more ADUs. So, Kelly, you said earlier that you were supportive of the provisions in 237. Yes. With some of those provisions, I'm trying to understand the text position of the local municipal ordinances with this statute and some of the things you're working on and trying to be addressed by our legislation as well. Yes, it would. And they're keeping the owner occupancy in the ordinance in Burlington. The only thing that would differ would be the square footage, because you're striking that language, the 30%, and they put the 800 square foot. So right now, my understanding is even if we didn't change the statute, a municipality could do more than 30% out to a square footage. Right. I don't know if there's any limit. Is there a limit right now, statewide? Statewide doesn't have a limit, but a lot of municipalities have said 30% for 800 or here, well, there's 900. So where you can go, whatever is greater. So actually, you can't go below 30. You can't tell somebody that 3,000 square foot house and they can only build up to 800 square foot. As the statute says, the 30% is a base. Well, a little too quick for me. So if you have a 3,000 square foot house, you could right now, I'm just saying, well, you can do up to 30% or 3,900 square feet, right? Yes. Okay. But a municipality could go in their ordinance. It's going to go even higher, right? Yes. There are a lot of me less restrictive. Each municipality became more restrictive. And does the statute that we're dealing with that also moves this to administrate a review rate? No, that would be a municipality that would have to choose that, which they've done here in Montpelier, and that's what they're hoping to do. So as an advocate for ADUs, I would assume, I guess I would like some feedback on, that would be a big set if we said it's no longer conditional uses. There is a cost associated also with the development review board. And it also got time. Time, that's like in the small checks, like every little base, another check, another check, another check. So could you play, could you play devil's advocate, could you argue the other side, what we might hear from the league if we took away conditional use? Well, there's always the benefit of having things reviewed, but they can also be reviewed to death. It's just, you know, you can always get more information, more information, more information, but at a certain point you have to sort of rely on the experts in the room, I feel, and understand. The policy changes here, like the Act of 15, due to effort, it seems to me that like this simple, more affordable, you're trying to have an on-developer review board, and we just like to ask a lot of questions, you know, even on authority. No, but you know, the flip side of it is, the flip side of it, yeah, we want to make it easier for people and less expensive, but we also, we also don't want un-thought, non-thoughtful, you know, we yield the epiglety, not attractive stuff going on in neighborhoods where people care what their neighborhoods look like. So I think we have to find sort of a fine line between honoring the character and visual aspect of a neighborhood and wanting to make it simpler. I mean, but I'm not sure doing away with all review is the answer to that. But if you allowed for administrative review based upon the variances that are allowed, right, and if somebody wants to go outside of the box that you've created, you know, then you go through conditional use. But if you're creating the parameters of what an ADU should be, right, then you should allow for that process to be smoother and easier. Right, right. I can see for instance, one solution might be if you're doing an ADU within an existing structure, maybe you don't have to go through a developer review board. Right, exactly, but if you're building a separate structure or building something that would affect the exterior, there might be a simplified conditional use review. Yeah, we wouldn't support that, but we'd want to see it both. If you're providing the parameters for an ADU, you know, you're putting specifically the amount of square footage you can have, right, the, and if it's historic preservation, you're going to have to go through that process regardless. So that is even so. So if there's an historic center, that deep DRB stuff would still happen. That's an overlay review. Okay, yeah. Got it. So you want to be able to, so you'd still stay within the character of the community? We could do these ranks in the work up and growing in terms of pushing forward administrative review versus conditional. At this point, it's still in there, but it's going to be administrative review. It's going to be administrative review. That was not, that was not the hot topic. The hot topic was parking requirement, that quite a bit of discussion. There's been quite a bit of discussion around owner occupancy as well. But parking, parking, you know, creates, creates a pretty interesting discussion. So there was, but ultimately people, you know, there was, there's consensus among the city councilors to get rid of that requirement. So you do a under state law, can you do an ADU without owner occupancy to the basics here? Oh, it's a concern that can replace with our short-term rental issue, quite frankly. Because if there has to be, because to me, that would be critically important for ADUs is that it has to be over-occupied. But the other thing, I'm really talking about the top of my head. I'm just trying to get it back to the basics here. What is the advantage of the ADU statute? If somebody tried to put a unit in their house and didn't live there, they basically want to be renting a duplex at that point? Yeah, we also, yeah, that's what, that's what we're trying to do. That developers would look for houses on the market and have a big backyard and they would just buy it and then build an ADU as well. So create the housing, but it's the fear of growing things that you would have, you know, 10 people in the house, four people in the ADU get loaded with students. So of course, it's always that concern. And having owners on site really helps. I'm asking a very funny moral question back to our ADU. What's the advantage of, what advantage does the ADU statute give to somebody that we acquire their real owner occupancy over, if there wasn't a owner occupancy? Oversight. It's the, it's never that people take more good, better care of their own homes than if the owner is in one of the units. Because they could, people do move into the ADU and rent out the house back and forth and that type of thing. I know that you're trying to figure out about being clear. I'm trying to say, go back to when we passed our law. Which has a owner occupancy. You were finding, what were you giving as an advantage to the homeowner over just a renting both units out separately? What do you get? Do you get tax savings? Do you get permanent savings? What do you get by staying in the unit and occupying the whole property? You get to call the ADU and it comes, it can remain your primary residence and it can remain a single family home. So that with it comes a lot of advantages. You can make decisions, there's actually, I don't like to say it always, but the fair housing laws are different than ADUs. There are some fair housing laws. They're slightly different. What you'll create in ADU and you have now in effect two occupants, two business residents. What if the owner dies? What if the owner sells the property? What happens to the two, you know, you create an apartment, you spend money to do it, then now you have a new owner and the owner doesn't live there. Does it do a little change? Unfortunately, Burlington asks that you, upon transfer, remove the kitchen. So now it just becomes a wreck room of sorts. A real advantage of the next, right. So getting comments on, especially, that's why I see the advantage of having, you know, incentives to get people to build homes because now we can, we're putting, attaching the deed. We can say it's the formal for this long sale of transfer. We can start to make those rules. People who they'll read one. I'm sorry, I missed exactly what you intend to do in terms of change that situation. I mean, these are all, it's owner choice, you know, they would, if they build it, decide to incentivize. But at this point, they didn't intend to die. Right, or of course, whatever the life-changing situation is, correct. Well, why are you proposing some sort of a change to any event of those events to override the municipal? Well, no, these are business thoughts to what will happen to that situation, I think, is more, that's what the discussion is now. Right now, we're still on the basics of working people apart. So I think it's fundamentally germane to any decision that we make regarding this. Because, you know, what happens before you create the ABU is all well and good. That's clear. But what happens after is critical. That's certainly critical for people to understand what they're getting themselves into. Right, well, I mean, we're still going to market as a single family home with an accessory dwelling unit. I mean, you see those in the market. And then you've got a choice of either keeping it or sorting for a day for the house, which we did when we bought our house in Woodstock. There was an accessory dwelling unit on the second floor, and we obliterated and made it a one-family home again. The main thing that you do when you deflate it, potentially what you've done is you conflated the value of the market of your home if you had an accessory dwelling unit long-term. I didn't, because we created a six-bedroom one-family home. Yeah, no, no, I'm saying that. And you're taking it home. Yeah. You potentially just will be with me. But that's your choice to make. Yeah. Maybe you're buying the house. If you buy the house, you don't reabsorb it, or you could keep it. Now I'd love to have that accessory dwelling unit again, but then a different place on one's floor. And I like to be in it. I think there is market value when people are looking for a home. It's either the possibility for an ADU or whether or not the ADU exists already to be able to provide some of that flexibility to your living arrangements. Yeah. Yeah. And we're dealing, I think, with a bubble coming through here where the ADU is a reasonable option for families that have elderly parents or whatever. And what happened, as you said, right when there's many different living arrangements that can take place in a single-family home with the ADU. It does provide a lot of potential. And a new value, I think, we're here as a sort of a new appreciation for the opportunity. Yeah. And that desire for a smaller home for many people is increasing. So if the dwelling is still considered a single-family home, how do you do taxes, like any deductions for that particular unit? Yeah, it's income-producing. Yeah, you get taxed on income. You get taxed on income. And then you get the square footage section off and you have to do it as a deduction in that way. So the same way it is, you would do it in a whole office. We're going to come home and office or something like that. Can you make a separate unit that has a sort of a common interest you walk down? You come to have your own interest, walk down hall, and you split the two to your own interest. Can you do that without a special permit? It's not an ADU or do you fall into a different category? I'm still struggling with this concept of owner-occupied and the concept of you're getting an ADU. And there must be in addition to fair housing standards that would not be out of the point. It must be something else that makes this attractive to be an ADU versus a single-family neighborhood. You can only have single-family. So an ADU is a loophole to the value. You can create emo, single-family. No, otherwise, you can't allow it. But I wonder about the question I asked earlier about assess valuations. Do you see when you create these things that the assessor comes in and says, right, you've got a different value, and do you think there's property values? So a lot of times internal conversions will actually can bring down if there's an assessment of the appraised value. The assess value sometimes goes up and the appraised value goes down. But the assessor, during that, we have the popular assessor winning another apartment that will be done into this Friday. They're in there right away before we got our stick of tokens in there. They're on it. But I've found that the taxes don't increase very much. Usually it's only because of improvements done to the whole home at the same time. There's a lot of people doing it because you already have them. Once you get a pulmonary in your house, you're like, fix this, fix that, or whatever. You know, it's like, you've got to get that done. But with detached units, there is a significant increase in both the assess and appraised value. You will be looking at a couple hundred bucks a month to increase taxes. You should have them detached. Sorry, with a detached, it tends to go up. That's been my experience. I would assume. So just Chris, go back for a circle, but thank you for that. That was the missing piece. So if you're in a zone that allows for duplexes, you don't even have to bother using the APU law? No, I mean, that's what you want to do. And that's the provision in your proposal is provisions that will enable duplexes for the rest of the year. So it's another route to get there. Is there some possibility that you can use the APU in a zone that's for duplexes where you have to, the size of the independent unit may have to be a certain square footage? And this will allow you to do smaller by doing an APU? That's a good tip. Okay, we're right on schedule. Thank you very much. Thank you. I just want to clarify some of the follow up on the home share staffs and a copy of the ordinance in Burlington, and then a member data rentals versus home ownership. Yeah, okay. Is there anything else that I do? Is that good? Mr. Chair, let me ask one question before we go. I've been studying this chart on page 13. This is probably one of the things you're bringing up. I'm wondering if we look at single person households in New England, why is Vermont the outlier there in terms of percentage? Compared to other New England states with similar, particularly with Northern New England. Yeah, we have similar demographics. What's going on there? Do you know? No. Okay. You'll find out from it? I will. I'll look at you later. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because it's just very striking. Yes, it is. And you know that Lafalo, which is at 41%, I did notice that. Yeah. Is there another copy of the ABCs related to that? Oh, I'm sorry. That's a very helpful line. Is it an extraordinary drawing? I will, I will, oh, perfect. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, yes. The one last question says there's no model statute floating around, but is there a jurisdiction in this powder state that AARP points to as having, like, this law that you know of? No, not at the top of my head. There are on this, in this piece, there is a section on here that talks about. There's that document from the Planning Association. Yeah, that one's there. The top of the features, like things you should definitely, you know, consider that essentially on Friday. Come on in. You can come on in. Yeah, we're just about to change gears here. I'll look into that week and follow up. So the one other piece of data just to follow up on Becca's observation of this is would you have data with your members in Vermont about whether, how many are living alone, how many are living in the context of a family? Of a family. I bet you have that, too. Would you? That would be also very interesting for us because there's a lot of variables there. Yeah. Okay. Great. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity. Thank you very much. Stay in touch. You're welcome. Don't despair. This is great. I have to say all these examples are cool. So great. Right? You're like, what do I get? Put you in one, put Oliver in another. You guys should just say we got these. Oh my god, that's so good. I'm thinking I'm gonna get a pod for one child. My wife and I can take you to claim our house. Oh man. So we have the Plymouth High School in 2011. Yeah. And we're 10. And between now and then, you guys, many groups have got the Northeast Kingdom Collaborative that has to testify in part of our committee. So we have a group of people. I'm not sure who's in charge here. Captain Simms? Yeah, she's stuck in the conference upstairs. So Joe is going to introduce us. You're going to just introduce yourself? We'll be sorry. And we have some more chairs here. 41% of the staff are back in change. Just to be sure. Good morning. Good morning. How are you? Should I just get going? No, you should wait for the chair. I thought I should. But yeah, thank you. So it's a little awkward when you're just sitting. That's enough ahead of the table. I'm with the Northern Forest Center. So I'm actually in a little bit of a picture. All right. Talk about some work. I am. Exactly. Been at it for almost 20 years, personally. But yes, this is. Okay, so why don't you introduce yourself and tell us what you came to call out of history and what you would know about it? Thank you. My name is Joe Short. I'm vice president with the Northern Forest Center, and I'm standing in for Katherine Sims, who's the executive director of the Northeast Kingdom Collaboratives. They are upstairs finishing a press conference. But we are here today as part of N.E.K. Day, Northeast Kingdom Day at the Statehouse with the theme of rural innovation, what's working and what's next for the Northeast Kingdom. So there are close to 100 of us. I think here today, sharing what we're excited about in the Northeast Kingdom and ways that we hope the state and state policy can support that work. So I'm going to introduce colleagues today and then and see the table to them. So Luke Sustorf is an alumni from Northern Vermont University. We hope to have Jesse Upton. It's Jesse Upton. I'm from Weston and then myself all talking about I think different aspects or issues of interest to this committee relating to economic development in the Northeast Kingdom. So Jesse, or I'm sorry, Luke. Good morning, everyone. Thanks for your time. My name is Luke Sustorf. I'm the manager of special events at JP Cresort, and I graduated from NVU Linden in 2012. I first discovered NVU Linden through my father, William Sustorf, who like me is a Linden State College alumnus. After working as a certified snowboard instructor for eight years and attending Adirondack Community College near my hometown of Diamond Point, New York, where I graduated with an associate's degree in liberal arts, I had an interest in learning more about this years-old industry and more importantly how to develop a career in an industry that had already had such a positive impact on my life. And NVU Linden was the vessel that turned that into an attainable reality. From studying general resort operations to more specialized programs like lift maintenance, grooming, and risk management, each class I attended while at NVU Linden flowed from one to the next. It was a fantastic small classroom learning experience that offered so much insight into all of the small details that go into operating a successful ski resort. To be honest, I couldn't get enough of it. While at NVU Linden, I had the opportunity as a student to intern at several different New England resort properties. Gaining first-hand experience working in numerous departments, shadowing frontline employees, supervisors, managers, directors, and even in some cases resort general managers. I now manage JT Consort's internship program with NVU Linden and it feels great to give back to an institution that helped kickstart my career as a ski resort operator. May I just ask you a question there? We do a lot of work for development issues. That internship and apprenticeship, was that a registered apprenticeship? Did you get a certification for that? Is that a hospitality internship? I did not for the initial one. It was called practicum course. But then I'll keep going with my testimony and I ended up de-gaining some certifications for my full-time internship. So the internship, the practicum opportunities that we have established for relationship between JT Consort and NVU Linden, it's also a great opportunity for JT to recruit its new NVU students as potential resort employees. And as a final requirement, to graduate with a bachelor's degree in science in the field of ski resort management, I had to complete a summer-long internship at a resort property. And I chose JP. So as the JP intern, I worked in a number of different departments, places like the hotel front desk, the golf course, the pump house indoor water park, customer service, parking and security, food and beverage. And I eventually found myself working on the events and marketing team where I've been since the fall of 2012. I've been the manager of special events at JP since the fall of 2014. So I'm responsible for directing the year-round on and off snow event series for the resorts. I coordinate the JP music series and much more. I found a second home in the J area and I must thank NVU Linden and JP for helping make that possible. It's opened doors in my life that, frankly, I never knew existed, not to mention lifelong friendships and countless great days playing outside. It's also where I met my now wife, a fellow JP employee, a native Vermonter and an NVU Linden alumnus. And my sister-in-law has the sign in her living room that reads, if you were lucky enough to live in the northeast kingdom, you were lucky enough. And now living in Vermont full-time for almost a decade, I couldn't see myself anywhere else, especially living in the northeast kingdom. The quality of life we as Vermonters possess is something very special. And in my case of being a native New Yorker and now being converted J, I will forever be indebted to NVU Linden and to JP for helping set the stage of a lifelong career doing what I love in an environment that I love. Thanks again, everybody, for your time. It's great. As an Adirondacker, I'm interested. You went to ACC and then came back. I'm just curious on your wages because one of the concerns in the northeast kingdom is some of the lowest grower wages in the state. So I'm just curious what JP is doing to improve that situation in the hospitality industry for famously low wages. If we're trying to move towards a little wage all over the month, what are you doing? I mean, are you working to promote and what are you doing to turn that out to improve wages in the hospitality industry? Well, we've certainly made a lot of strides within the last few years. I remember when I started at Jay, I mean, mine knew I was an intern, but I was hired on as a full-time employee, so it was a paid position. We were at wage freeze during that time. So when I knew kind of coming in bare bones, I had to just work as hard as I could and just kind of tough it out for a couple of years and then it would get better as things went on. And it certainly has. And really, since the spring of 2016, ironically, things have gotten much better for not only frontline employees, but for someone like myself, that's moved from an hourly position with overtime eligibility to now being full-time year-round salary, aside from benefits, health insurance, a 401k, it's gotten much, much better. Because that is a big issue. It's a huge issue. Not only finding, recruiting new talent and having to be competitive with our wages and feel like as a resort, that's something that we've really put in the primary focus within the last few years because the reality is we can't sustain ourselves that as a JP in the size of the operation. We can't sustain ourselves as if we don't have quality staff and if we're not taking care of staff, the current ones and recruiting ones. And just to go to our housing concern because we're also committed that does housing. What are your housing challenges? Do you have a housing challenge for your employees? How does it affect your recruitment? It's improved within the last couple of years since we added on-site employee housing. Some of the condominium projects that were going on at JP, the management team decided to make those employee housing. So that certainly helped with some of the seasonal departments like in the bigger departments like Ski and Ride School, for example, when I want to say they have upwards of a couple hundred instructors working on that team. And it's a seasonal department. So you have to somehow sustain yourself and do that in a way that makes sense for you, the employee. So having the on-site housing has definitely been a pretty big improvement. Local area lodging, it's coming along. We're seeing a slight decrease in available lodging properties for employees with Airbnb and Home Away and just a lot of other rental opportunities. Some homeowners are choosing to do that as opposed to having a full-time tenant living in their residence. So that's kind of nice that the resort has been able to step up to the plate and offer another option and actually, frankly, a cheaper option right there on-site on the resort. That's terrific. And they take it. An employee would take that as an additional benefit with their zener. Yeah, and it's also a recruitment opportunity that we use to hire staff. That's one of the most common questions I've asked, especially going back to Ski and Ride School when it's a seasonal department, folks are like, oh, I'd love to commit with you for the season, where can I live and how much does it cost? So how much of your staff is seasonal? Oh, that's a good question. See, just about half, it's not more than half. Especially food and beverage is another department. Those profit centers, how many there are, we will certainly go down to a more streamlined operation during the off-the-off snow months. But J.B. Beek is kind of unique, though, in that you have not only Ski and Ride, but you have the Conference Center, the Wedding Business, the Golf Course, the Water Park and Music Series Recreation Center. I mean, you name it, we likely have it or at least have something close to it. And that being said, there's certainly a need to have folks employed to eat around, to execute and operate all those various things. And with regard to your internship, how many students do they all come? Most of them come from NVA? Yeah, yeah, I'd say about 100% of our interns come from NVU of Linden specifically. You know, on average, we see about half a dozen students that come to us throughout the season that will shadow a number of different departments, being back-of-house and front-of-house. It's up to the student whether they choose to do a full-time internship with us, you know, like a season-long internship. And we recently have one, I believe it's a senior this year graduating, and I hope we hire them once you graduate, so we can win this over this summer. And it's that pretty reasonable to think that the interns would be hired full-time? Yeah, I mean, it's beneficial. I mean, it's a two-way street in that, you know, the resort we look at as a student, as someone that has gone through a specialized program in the resort and hospitality industry, they already kind of have the framework set for them to succeed. So that's very enticing as a potential employer to see that in someone. And also for the student, you know, I was a very unique opportunity and then I walked into a full-time job immediately out of college, and I really didn't have to scramble a whole lot. I mean, and I thank my internship for that. I mean, that really was able to set the stage for me to move into a full-time position. And that's not always the case. You know, usually you graduate and kind of have to figure it out. So the internship opportunity is very beneficial both ways. What's the name of that program at MDU? This is the, we call it the Practicum program. But what's the hospitality program called? Oh, the resort hospitality. Mountain Recreation Management. Yep. That's what it's about. Change names for that. Change names for that. Change names for that. Change names for that. Yeah. Outdoor education leadership in tourism. Yeah. And I know we're a little limited on time on your tour, whatever you're hoping to bring, so I just wanted to check in on that. Right, but these are the issues we're working on, so it's really, really interesting. That's why we're here in the housing. But we all do have a hard stop at 11. Yeah. Thanks, everybody. Thank you. Thank you. So that program's called Outdoor. Outdoor Education Leadership in Tourism. It's a Bachelor of Science degree. There's several concentrations within it, and it's on both campuses. Perfect. Thanks. That's very wonderful. Hello. My name is Jesse Upson. I'm one of four sisters who are a sixth generation to grow up in our family's farmhouse in Craftsbury, Vermont. Two years ago, when our parents were getting ready to retire downstairs, two of my three sisters and I came together to try to keep the farmhouse in the family. Our backgrounds ranged from nurse to teacher to herbalist to stay-at-home moms. None of us had any experience in business, but we felt we had a vision and a pulse in the community's needs. And without, we invested in the future of our childhood home. In May of 2018, we took over the one side of the building that was run as a B&B by our grandparents and then by our parents, and completed some renovations and reopened as a vacation rental property. On the second side of the building, we opened Westone Wellness, where we offer yoga classes, hot tub and sauna, massage, facials, Reiki, sound therapy, and counseling. The Wellness Center has not only provided local job opportunities, but it has also quickly become popular with both community members and those visiting from out of town. We were not quite through our first year of business when it became evident that the fluctuating income of vacation rentals was making it hard to pay our bills during the slower months. We realized that in order for this business to be sustainable, we needed more fixed monthly income. That's when we were approached by a good friend about turning the downstairs of our vacation rental into a restaurant and bar. There has been a huge demand for a place to dine in Craftsbury for quite some time, even present on the town's five-year plan to create such a place. As soon as we reached out for our local planning committee, select board and neighbors, we were met with nothing but excitement and support. With that, in December of 2018, we revised our business plans and jumped into that 250 process with the goal of opening Black Group Bistro by June of 2019. The next few months proved to be a crash force in the permitting process. We were determined to do everything we needed to do the right way and thought that by being proactive and starting the process in December, that we would be able to minimize the amount of time we would need to shut down our rental business for construction and would be able to launch the restaurant just as the prime summer season began. Unfortunately, we were met with the challenges of a permitting process that seemed flawed and made it extremely difficult for small businesses to simultaneously do the things by the book and also open in a timely manner. It feels like everything from the application to the timeline to the support available is designed for large corporations with significantly more financial resources than are available to most small businesses, especially those just starting out. We submitted the application for the Vermont Division of Historic Preservation in January of 2019. We did everything we could to meet the demands of the Historic Resources Specialist even when it felt like the requests were really trying to prevent us from being able to move forward with our project. A project that was designed to preserve history and keep an 1826 farmhouse in our family. Despite this frustration, we completed all the requirements in order to move forward. Then three months later, one week before the rest of our Act 250 application was to be submitted, we heard back from the Historic Resources Specialist requesting a historical documentation package. We were given a quote, 2700, but the consultant we were directed to contact told us that this is usually only required for buildings being demolished, not updated. To clarify the footprint of our farmhouse would not be altered in any way. The only renovations would be some interior updates and kitchen remodeled. The Act 250 specialist we were working with told us that the board might determine that this documentation package was unnecessary. When we reached back out to the Historic Resources Specialist explaining that time and money were tight and asking if this was something that we absolutely had to do, she told us no, but she could request a hearing over the issue, which would prolong our timeline even further. It was only weeks later that it came to light that we could actually complete the documentation package on our own. While taking quite a bit of time, it did save us 2700 dollars. This was the beginning of what became a trend for our Act 250 process, asking the same question to three different people and getting three different answers to trying to complete requirements ahead of schedule only to be thrown surprise curveballs at the last minute and ultimately feeling a lot more pushback than support on the state level. This brings us to the final hurdle that almost ended our business before it even started. After receiving our Act 250 permit the end of June, we were finally able to begin construction and start lining up contractors for our septic expansion. This work began full speed ahead with the hopes of opening the restaurant in time to at least catch the leaf papers. By the end of August, the construction was wrapping up and kitchen and wait staff were on call to begin training at any time. I knew that we needed to complete water testing prior to opening so I reached out to the agency of natural resources to find out exactly what they needed from us. This phone call ended up flagging an issue that we hadn't given the wrong water permit back in the beginning of July. They were told this was their error but we would be looking at an additional water permit that would cost $35,000 to complete and would take an estimated six to ten months. Needless to say, have this information been presented to us prior to construction it would have called the project. I will spare you the infinite details including the emotional toll this took on all of us and the families but that's why we are here today. We are so happy to be a part of the economic growth in the Northeast Kingdom and we sincerely hope that this Act 250 process can be streamlined to make it easier for Vermontos who are trying to raise their families in the state and who are trying to create successful small businesses that serve their communities. Thank you for your time. Are you open? We are. We opened in December a year later. Yeah. And have you submitted this testimony to the House Natural Resources Committee that's actually doing this work? No. Streamlining Act 250? No, I have not. Well, I think that we're just my way to do our test today. Okay, great. Good, good, good. Because the whole process costs you the permitting process. So I did the work myself but I've spoken to other people who have hired a consultant and it cost them about $30,000 to hire the consultant. And then the fees alone were another $5,000, around $5,000. And then Leanne, the owner of the bar, would have more details on how much it cost her and not being able to open until six months later. So lost revenue, right? But we lost on our Airbnb not being open. And then we obviously were encouraging her rent also. So what, how long did the entire project take the committee part of it? A year. Oh, the permitting. So we started, I started the application in December and we got the Act 250 permit in the beginning of July. But then the water permit that we were given the wrong one, we didn't get that until beginning of October. To that extent, that almost a year that's what it was like. The consultant, you talk about the consultant, was that like an Act 250 navigator? Yeah, yeah. So my neighbor owns all metals recycling in Hardwick and he told me that he hired someone to do everything that we did and it cost him $30,000. And is it generally the consultancy now that we all know what navigators are with health care? Yeah. We know she's kind of a navigator with everything else. A what? Navigator. I know. But the Act 2, is that a percent of the budget? Is that generally a fee that's based on a percent of the budget? So the fee for the Act 250 permit is based on a percent of the budget. I'm not sure how the consultant comes up with their price. But the Act 250 permit price? No, I know that. But I was just curious of the navigator if the consultant was also a percent of the budget. Yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah. I'm not sure if we get one last way to send it. Yes, we'll have five more minutes. Thank you very much. Thank you. And have you submitted that to Electronic Fair? Are these all going to be electronically submitted to our committee? Yes. We need that. Exactly. Hello again. Joe Short, Vice President of the Northern Forest Center. We're a regional innovation and investment partner and nonprofit working at CREA, rural vibrancy, connecting people, the economy, and the forested landscape. Yes, all the way from the Adirondacks, Vermont, and Hampshire, and the main woods. As Vermont is recognized, attracting new residents is essential for your economic development. I want to share a couple of examples of working in the Northeast Kingdom to put the pieces in place that make the kingdom an attractive destination not only for visitors but for new businesses and residents. First is branding and marketing the region through experience. Increasingly amenity-rich places like the kingdom are what people are seeking. And we're facilitating two initiatives to harness digital marketing and social media to tell the story of the kingdom and introduce both locals and visitors to what it has to offer. Got a couple of props. The first is get naked BT. Yes, you laugh. It gets your attention whether you like it or not. And this is a campaign that highlights attractions, activities, and events that make the kingdom unique and gives people a way to actively engage in them pursuits. So you do a couple of things in the kingdom. You went up a T-shirt and things like that. Make it fun. Since the campaign launched last June, we've had over 9,000 people use the site to plan their trips. Most of those are Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, and Connecticut. We reach an average of 2,400 people a day through social and digital advertising. And the campaign content is curated by the local chambers anchor institutions like Catamount Arts. Second. What about Canada? If you're closest to Anchorage, Canada? Yes. So some of the marketing does go North. We're not... Their content is not on the site but we are advertising in Canada. For those visitors. Second. And this one does cross the border to your question is a bike to the borderlands which is focused on leveraging the mountain biking community for community economic development objectives. This is a collaboration between eight trail networks across three states and Canada. It goes up to Céclique Montierre. And did I get that right? And the group is working both to connect riders with new trail networks that they might not know about but also with the local business communities. The Lotties are here in the front or the back of the room. They're a local business in East Perk that has, I think, a bike to the borderlands placard in their window. So we're trying to make sure that riders know and we make it as easy as possible for them to spend some money while they're there. Over 100 people completed the inaugural tour to borderlands last summer that went to all seven of these and each one of those might account for about $1,000 in visitor spending. That's great. It scales up quickly. Second set of initiatives focuses on deepening economic development opportunities and employment tied to the working landscape that underpins the Vermont brand together the Northern Forest Center and the Northeast Kingdom Collaborative have secured over $400,000 in Northern Border Regional Commission funding to invest in outdoor recreation infrastructure. In partnership with the Vermont Board Works Council, we've paired money from the Working Lands Enterprise Board and federal and philanthropic money to work with companies like Linn and Furniture and built by Newport to strengthen their businesses that provide good jobs and markets for Vermont wood. I know I'm going very fast but I'm going to be oppressed for time. So I'm going to cut right to suggestions for state how state support can make each of these initiatives more effective. First is to invest more in marketing Vermont. And I see that in some of the ACC proposals. I work in several other states. Compared to those other states the resources at the community level not just the state level you know in your tourism agency but resources that communities can access for their own marketing once upon a time this work in the kingdom was funded as I understand it in part by the state. What I describe to you now is all done on the backs of federal philanthropic and individual support. And as you might expect the ability to keep that marketing consistent which is key for good marketing really waxes and wanes with funding availability. So state support to the extent it can be developed as important. Second is to continue to support the Working Lands Enterprise Initiative. I think that initiative is unique. We talk about it in other states. You help create it. We know you're preaching to the government. OK. We're happy to hear that. Yeah. Not just talking about it but directly investing in it is is awesome. So thank you. Thank you very much. Well the governor's budget has a huge. Absolutely. So housing since you asked about it wasn't on my list but another shared regional issue. We we have gotten to the property ownership business at the Northern Forest Center because we can constantly hear from employers hospitals who are trying to attract doctors in schools trying to attack teachers. It's not always affordable housing. It's quality housing. Yes. And so I know you've got some some ideas in front of you. Again I'm affirming those. Finally I mentioned the Northern Board Regional Commission. This is federal money but your ACCD has taken a really strong leadership role in really standing up that institution. You know the governor and Ted Brady and I really urge that to continue. I would wager that at least half of the things folks are talking about here today are getting money from them. But federal money is not enough. You all know that it takes match non-federal match to go after that federal money. So your investment those state dollars are what help us leverage those dollars now. How much money is available in there? They they have got a thirty one million dollar appropriation. But between main to the across four states but to put that in perspective it was created in 2008. Got its first appropriation of one point five million dollars in 2010. So in less than 10 years it's gone from one point five million to thirty one million. So I believe he is a huge champion on this. And shares a quarter of it or round that. Yes without getting into all the details. Yeah. Roughly a straight divide by four. Have we been leaving money on the table because you're on a safe match. No. But I think you want to obviously use that money for the best projects that you can find. I know you know building a robust project pipeline of good projects that are ready to go and take advantage of that money can be challenging not because they're not good ideas but because of the match issue. Right. So that thirty one million is spread between from the other on the extra main four states. Right. And it includes all of Vermont. And now we're going to talk about initially and one reason the kingdom has benefited so much is that initially it was just six counties but in the last farm bill they extended it statewide. So that's speaking if you've got eight million dollars for Vermont you'd have to raise how much to match that eight million to get short on the 40 million. Usually their projects want at least 50% match they can do up to but sometimes it's just 20% match. So you'd need to be anywhere from another two to eight million. Most of the major projects that they fund they do a lot of infrastructure you know water sewer type things but they can also do a regional marketing work I talked to you is funded by that. I think the outer recreation and new port others can help me here. Workforce food systems work. Looking at broadband yes thank you Catherine. They can do a lot it's tremendously flexible pot of federal money. And so the Better Places program that's being proposed would be a good example of a program where local state dollars could be used to leverage some of this NBRC money and you know a cross sector multi-pronged place-based initiative like Better Places would be great and also helps bring some of those other funders to the table to be additional. We need to go and I apologize but curious where is do you know we're in our budget that matching funds up here does anybody know about this? We could so it's not only chain it's not only state matching funds but they also will run a project and then profit other matching funds so it can be offered there. Most of that yeah most of that match is not state money but to the extent those yeah the Boer Act Community Grants program is another one the Better Places those small bits added with philanthropic and other money great thank you that's what we do we may need you back on the Better Places we'd be happy to come back