 This is Think Tech Hawaii. Community matters here. Good afternoon and aloha to everyone. This is another episode of Hawaii's Living Legend Lawyers. The show is presented by the Hawaii State Bar Association, of which I am the current president for this year, and also with deep gratitude to Think Tech we are airing these programs. My guest today is Mr. Eric Seitz. We have half an hour to go over a lifetime, almost 50 years in the courtroom battling for the underdog, for the underprivileged, for those who have been on the receiving end of some very difficult and onerous social policies. Mr. Seitz has taken on cases that no one else would take. I want to welcome you, my old friend, my good friend Eric. Welcome to the program. Thank you. All right. So, you know, I know that a couple of years ago you were interviewed in another program in which you went through your entire, well not your entire, but most of your life history and your family and so forth. I'd like to get into some of that, but not all of it. Unlike many individuals who go into the law because they have a point of view that are different from their family members, some becoming very liberal in their outlook at a time when you started practicing law where individuals were from families that have very conservative values and thoughts. You came from a different kind of background, didn't you? I did. My parents were involved in very significant political movements in the 1930s and after that, in the 1950s they were targeted by the McCarthy period and had to move from New York to California. My sister actually was physically attacked by other kids who were incited to do so by the parents of some of her classmates. So we had some pretty rocky times and it was a very tumultuous time before finally when I got to high school and things began to calm down for many of those years my father was unable to obtain or keep employment. But they nevertheless were very principled people. They always kept to their principles. They were known to basically invite all kinds of stray people home and to befriend people of all different kinds. And they were pretty remarkable and very principled people and even though I tried to rebel against some of that it was pretty hard to do because they were pretty unique in the way that they dealt with social issues in their times. Well, you know, in your case, the apple did not fall far from the tree. You grew up in Manhattan, is that correct? Well, actually I spent the first seven years in New York and then as a consequence of the McCarthy period my parents had to move so they moved to California. So actually pretty much my upbringing in school elementary, intermediate school, and then high school was in Palo Alto, California. Something I learned about you having known you for decades now I didn't know that your father had actually worked with the I guess President Roosevelt and followed by President Truman in the Japanese relocation authority program. Can you tell us about that? Most people don't realize that in the wake of the internment program which was of course horrible, the government at least had the good sense to anticipate that the Japanese who were interned would be coming home at some point and so early on in the war they created the Japanese relocation authority which was based in New York City and they hired a number of people including my dad who was a housing specialist to travel around to meet with Japanese families in the camps on the west coast and then to assist them in going back home and regaining their homes and their farms and it was a very dangerous task because in many instances as soon as the Japanese families left everything they owned was seized by their neighbors and they didn't want to give it back but in many cases they were able to reintroduce people into those communities or if not to resettle them elsewhere primarily on the west coast. Did your dad ever talk about whether the Japanese Americans trusted him after all they had been betrayed by their own country they had lost everything they had, they say relocated some people call them concentration camps whatever you call it it was a period that you would understand if there was distrust. Well you know when I was growing up in the 50s in Palo Alto it would be a regular occasion sometimes a couple times a year when we were just walking down the street some Japanese people walking toward us and they would start to cry and grab my father and hug him and tell me how much they appreciated my father because he had come to their rescue and what a hero he was and it was pretty remarkable for a kid to see people say those kinds of things about one of your parents. Yeah very moving story and your mom was involved as well. My mom was an early advocate for pre-school for children for working parents and during the WPA the Works Progress Administration in the 1930s she set up collective childcare programs and it was one of the originators of what we now call cooperative childcare where parents participate on a basis of a couple days time in their children's preschools and she did that for some 50 or 60 years. Several decades way ahead of their time and of course I just recently read that several decades of progress have been rolled back in a matter of months but we won't get into that. I like to do a little flyover of your educational background you went to Oberlin College which was even then I think considered very progressive liberal arts college in the Midwest and you graduated with honors and then on to Bolt Hall the University of California at Berkeley and you got your law degree there right? Correct. Tell us about what you did doing and right after law school. Well in law school I became very quickly enmeshed in all the political things that were going on in Berkeley and actually two months into law school I received a notice from my draft board that I was being called to service in Vietnam and that propelled me to become an expert on selective service law so that I could protect myself but I eventually went on to work with a lawyer in San Francisco and we counseled and represented while I was in law school close to a thousand people so that's primarily what I did in law school. In addition when I got to University of California law school I discovered that there was a student chapter called the National Lawyers Guild and the National Lawyers Guild was an organization founded in 1939 as a progressive alternative to the American Bar Association and it represented and worked with many of the lawyers who were active in the 50s in anti-McCarthy activities and I had heard about that by virtue of my parents' political contacts and ties so I was drawn to that organization and I became a member of the student chapter as soon as I enrolled in law school I eventually became the president of the student chapter and then I became one of the first five student members of the National Executive Board of the organization and my first job out of law school I was hired to go to New York to run the organization as the National Executive Director and I did that for two years. Amazing, so you counseled with a thousand young people I imagine most of them were then college students? Some were college students they were all different kinds of people from the Bay Area we had a very active and very creative way to represent people and we were very successful because we were very aggressive and the draft boards simply didn't know what to do with us so it was a very unique kind of opportunity and then unfortunately we discovered that it didn't really slow down the recruitment process it just meant that the draft boards would find ways to draft other people unfortunately poor people or non-white people who didn't have access to lawyers to protect them and so from that experience I gradually moved more into representing people in the military and that became a specialty which I pursued for many years. I've seen a film I don't recall the name of it but I've seen a film in which you were, maybe it's a cameo I don't want to say that you were the star of the film. No, I had a speaking line, two lines but you were you were in overseas in Japan I believe and you were among numerous young men and there were no women at that time in the military at least not in the position that these young men were in some of them were African-American others were clearly identifiable as minorities and I was wondering what in the world is this guy with long dark hair and a beard doing in this movie. Could you tell us about that? Well, while I was working in New York for the National Lawyers Guild we were getting an increasing number of calls and correspondence from people in the war zone or adjacent to the war zone who were involved in anti-war activities and who wanted representation and advice. So in 1971 we decided to set up an office in Asia we wanted to set it up in Vietnam we started from doing that so we set it up in the Philippines from which the air war was being fought all the ships were coming in all the aircraft carriers and so forth and in Japan and we traveled from there to Okinawa and Korea and Thailand and also to Vietnam to represent clients who were involved in primarily anti-war activities and so after setting up that office which I did in the latter part of 1971 I went there as one of the first staff attorneys from 1971 to 72. Right. Well you know you've been in the midst of several celebrity legal cases I know that you're involved with the Chicago Seven some of the viewers might not know what that is I'd like to talk about that and I have memories of seeing you with well maybe not seeing you with but I think it might have been with Jane Fonda Mr. Consular from the well-known attorney during the 60s almost everyone knew who he was and Charles Gary give us a little bit of background of your connection with these people Well, when I was at the Lawyers Guild the Chicago Conspiracy Trial started literally the day that I got there and on that first day we got a call that four lawyers had been arrested because Charles Gary had gotten sick had a gall-better operation wasn't able to show up for trial and there was all this turmoil so I was immediately on a plane to Chicago the first day I worked in order to deal with crises around this trial and I did that for the entire duration of the trial I was sort of the person who put out fires I also traveled with many of the defendants when they would go to speak speaking engagements at law schools to popularize what was happening in the courtroom for people who were interested and who were drawn to that during that time my job also consisted of going around the country and recruiting and training lawyers to represent people in the Black Panther Party of whom Gary Bobby Seel and a number of other people and so I was very close to them and was involved in all of the cases involving the Black Panthers and the Black Panther leadership Charles Gary was really a mentor of mine actually he had helped to get me the job with National Lawyers Guild Bill Kuntzler was a colleague we worked on a number of things together and in 1989 we both represented Leonard Peltier who's a very famous Native American who was convicted of murdering two FBI agents and Bill and I worked very closely together on that case until he died so I've had the wonderful opportunity to work with some of these legendary lawyers watch them in operation work with them and be mentored by them and it's been a pretty remarkable experience you know before we take a break I need to tell you that before you even spoke to me about representing Mr. Peltier or Leonard Peltier I bought a book that was titled In the Spirit of Crazy Horse and then it went off the market I mean it was banned and I thought wow I have something of a collector's item is a very moving and poignant story by not a story it's a true report by Mr. Peter Matheson a famous author and eventually I'll tell the listeners I gave you the book and you got a sign from me well in addition to that after I got involved in the case we resurrected it and printing which is a soft cover printing and the appendix to that talks about all the activities that I was involved in which Mr. Matheson participated in as well okay I think we're about due for a little break here so we'll come back after the break this is Stink Tech Hawaii raising public awareness Stink Tech Hawaii's law across the sea law across the sea is on Stink Tech Hawaii every other Monday at 11am please join me where my guests talk about law topics and ideas and music and Hawaii Anna all across the sea from Hawaii and back again Allah. Thank you and welcome back to Living Legend Lawyers Hawaii we're with Eric Seitz I'll get right into the next question I wanted to ask you so Mr. Seitz how do you decide whether or not you represent someone by that I mean I know you have an overflow of people who want your services and there must be some criteria used to determine who you're going to be representing well you know we don't have a website we don't advertise but we get probably 20 to 30 people a week contact us either by email or letters or calls wanting us to assist them or advise them or represent them typically we take cases where we think that we can make some sort of a difference we take cases where we think that what's happening to the people involved is something which concerns us and where we believe that we can be of help to them and in many instances there are cases that no one else is going to take on so we're sort of the court of last resort so most of the cases and most of the work we do is essentially directed toward doing whatever we can to help people who are in very often desperate need who can't get help elsewhere and whose cases hopefully have some meaning and significance beyond just the individuals who are directly involved this might be a tough question for more difficult for me to ask than for you to answer I suppose but clearly everyone knows that and if they didn't they know by now that you've been identified as a very liberal individual very progressive as a civil rights lawyer would you represent someone who espoused or had a very conservative cause or a very reactionary cause or an important view generally not I mean I certainly wouldn't represent Nazis I wouldn't represent people who have views that involve hating other people or segregating or punishing or harming other people I just don't see any reason to represent those kind of people they could have the worst things in the world happening to them but as far as I'm concerned let them go find lawyers elsewhere that's not how I want to spend my limited time I basically want to represent people who I think deserve my representation and with whom I can basically form some sort of a bond as to what's happening to them and why we should be assisting them there's so many cases we could spend hours talking about your most memorable cases I'm sure I'd like to ask you about just one and I've selected it I know that there are several that are close to your heart the field is consent decree can you tell us about that and your role in obtaining what you achieve which is quite remarkable well it started back in 1989 I believe when I first represented Jennifer Felix with that time was a 14 year old girl on Maui who had some very severe physical and emotional disorders and was spending almost all of her time at school locked in a bathroom because they didn't know how to deal with her and they had no facilities and no programs and moreover when we got involved in the case we found that the state although it was taking federal monies to provide programs mandated by federal law just wasn't doing it so individually I represented Jennifer and we eventually got a court to order that she be placed into a special program in Texas where she just thrived and then eventually it was time for her to come back and there was nothing for her here she came back and she was put in a program in Waipahu which we had actually carefully designed but it didn't work because there were some major flaws in the way the program was operated by the Department of Health and the Department of Education and at one point she walked away from the program and was out on the streets of Waipahu and was sexually assaulted and it was just a horrible event to occur especially as far as we had come with her so at that point a number of organizations were forming and they were going to the legislature in 1992 they made demands on the legislature to fix these problems and appropriate enough money to do what the state was federally mandated to do nothing more, nothing less and they went to the legislature and they made their demands and the legislature didn't give them the time of day so they came to me and there were I guess originally five lawyers who put together a class action lawsuit on behalf of all of the disabled students in Hawaii who were entitled to some sorts of programming for their disabilities First lawsuit, first class action of its kind and you prevailed Yes, we did, it took us about a year and a half and we won a motion for summary judgment as to liability after which the state then decided they had to negotiate with us we then spent the next three years putting together a plan for them to incorporate again just what the federal law already required of them and eventually we put together a plan that was somewhat remarkable and set out to implement it the entire process took ultimately was supposed to take five or six years and ended up taking 12 years and ended up costing the state an estimated $1.2 billion but by the end of that time we had probably one of the best special education and children's mental health systems in the country and we did that at remarkably little expense because one of the other things that we insisted upon was that this wasn't an opportunity for lawyers to make a lot of money we kept our fees way below what we might otherwise have been entitled to get usually in a class action the fees generally run about somewhere between 15 and 20% of what the recovery was and if you say 1.2 billion you can figure that out well in this case the fees were less than together over a 12 year period and so for economic purposes as well as because we did this as a love we were able to create an enormous change in the systems in Hawaii well stated you know two weeks ago I interviewed Mr. Vernon Toshima who last week turned 98 years of age he's still going to court my question to you is how long do you expect to practice well I don't know I think I'm going to practice until hopefully I can find and train other people to do what I do and I'm not going to just walk away I'm going to basically do less and less and have them do more and more currently my practice operates with four associates in whom I repose a great deal of confidence they're all really skilled lawyers and really good young people and I think that in due course they'll be able to do a lot more of what I have to do and I can just recede and sort of be a senior partner advisor mentor while they carry on the work at least that's my hope well what would you advise young people who are inspired by the kind of work you've done what should they do if they graduate from law school and now it's time for them to look for a job I think you know it's very different time now than it was when I started but nonetheless I think you just have to go out and do what you want to do you have to really roll the dice and figure out ways to be able to afford to do the kind of work that you feel dedicated and impaled to do when I first came to Hawaii I worked out of my house I didn't have an office I had one of these self correcting selective typewriters and wrote everything on that I used commercial copiers I had a part-time secretary who worked out of her house who would type briefs when that needed to happen and I would stay there and watch her kids while she typed and that was the way I practiced and I remember this is back in the 1970s I was charging ten dollars an hour and then eventually it went to twelve dollars and after I won one case in the US Supreme Court which was kind of unheard of where we won about four million dollars for my clients I upped my rate to fifteen dollars an hour so I've always felt that doing the work is joyful it's got its own rewards I very often walk down the street somebody comes up to me and thanks me for something that I don't even remember it may have happened fifteen years ago and that's just a good enough reason to keep doing it that's wonderful I remember my first legal job paid seven dollars and forty-eight cents an hour with no benefits you and I are both war babies we're born at the end the tail end of world war two you must have had a wonderful childhood as I did was a great time to be a child you for the first time in your life I believe are going to be a grandfather is that right? I am and I know the blessed event is coming up soon tell us your thoughts about this you know my kids have been too busy I guess to have kids on their own but they're now getting around to it my daughter is due to have a baby in July and my son who teaches at Farrington High School has a wonderful companion who has two kids and we can't wait for them to get married I hope they watch this and see that so we can grab those two kids as well because we adore them there are lots of things going on that make life very nice your attention has been focused on representing your clients I know that for a fact you're the preeminent civil rights attorney in Hawaii and certainly one of the most preeminent in the United States my congratulations to you and to your wife Ray we'll be getting together soon I hope any thoughts that you want to share with our audience before this segment is over well these are very difficult times many of us are very distressed about the leadership in this country and the political directions in which this country is going and I got to tell you I remember growing up in the 50s during the McCarthy period and we were desperate about the way things were going and I remember when Ronald Reagan was elected and we thought that was the worst possible thing that could happen and he's going to get us into a nuclear war before that when Nixon was elected we had similar kinds of concerns and then George Bush so you know this is a period of time things happen and you can't lose confidence in your own ability to fight for what's right you can't just dig a hole around yourself and say oh my god it's terrible it's terrible you got to go out and continue to do what you do to address the issues and hopefully educate and motivate other people and frankly I'm very encouraged you know the change that's going to come in this country is going to come because of the actions of younger people and there are lots and lots of younger people who have been motivated to step out and take positions and put themselves at risk and as long as people are willing to do that no matter what the threats are no matter how badly things are going I think there's enormous enormous reason to be hopeful for the future thank you Eric Eric Sites civil rights lawyer, lawyer of the people who continues to fight the good fight does that sound about right I like it thank you very much for being on the show we wish you the best, he has a appointment that's going to commence about two minutes from now so I hope you brought your running shoes with you I'm ready to go thank you very much for tuning into another session of Living Legend Lawyers of Hawaii I'm Howard Lu and thanks for tuning in