 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Might pump! Might pump! With your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. I like going to LA. Do you really? It's like our second home now. You know, I like the people we meet there. I'm not sure if I'm a big fan of LA. A lot of pretty humans walking around. You know who two of the prettiest are? Dr. Drew and Mike. From the Swole Patrol. Good looking people. You know what surprised me? Pretty. We're supposed to interview Dr. Drew and Mike Catherwood from the Swole Patrol podcast. I walk in. Dr. Drew is sitting down. He's got a t-shirt on. He's fucking yacked. Jacked as fuck. Why didn't I not know? Why doesn't he tell anybody that? He was hiding them guns. I feel like he needs a better marketing department because that shit, like people need to know Dr. Drew, you got guns, dude. Yeah, no. And he's not young either. No. Arm wrestle you. He said he's 60. He doesn't look a day older than 59, but he said he's 60. Did he say 60? Yeah, he did. Oh, wow, really? Yeah. Yeah, he looks great, man. And Mike is a super, super cool guy. Funny guy and a very cool guy. Actually had a great time with them too. Yeah. We had a good interview with those two guys. Dr. Drew left like halfway through the interview. I think he had to go be on another radio show. I'm like 5,000. Which is partially our fault we should disclose that. It is. Yeah, we showed up a bit. Flight was late. Late. We had no shit this week. I know, right? Yeah. I don't know what's out of our hand. We had a plane. We had a plane hit a fucking bird on the way to come get us to leave. That's why we were late. Stupid bird. And then this morning, we were just in Doug and I were supposed to fly back early. Sal was staying and hopping on Max Lugaviers podcast. And we had our flight canceled. The irony of it is we all ended up back together again. Yeah. Yeah. It's like the universe wouldn't let us separate. I think now is a good time to tell you guys what I did. I called the airlines. You sabotaged them. Yeah. I'm like, I get nervous flying by myself. So I want you guys there with me. So thanks for your support. Thanks for understanding. Anyway, Mike and Dr. Drew, this is a great, great combination. We bounce around on a few topics, man. We got into, we talked about the documentary that we had just watched recently. I was looking forward to talking to Drew. Take your pills. Yeah, take your pills. I wanted to talk to him about that. Talked about carnivore diet and different types of diets. Then we got into Mike's career, how he started in the, basically in the entertainment industry and what that's all about. The difference between all the entertainment platforms. Yeah, he's got a lot of experience in radio and TV and now podcasting. So really cool person to talk to. I enjoyed that conversation. Yeah. I hope this is not the last time. It's the first time, but I hope it's not the last time that we meet with them and do a show. You know, I want to continue working with them. I felt it was like an equal man crush. Yeah. You think they liked us too? Yeah. Yeah. I felt like when we were leaving. He did make a lot of outcomes. Yeah. Mike gave me kind of this long lingering look. Yeah. He is a handsome guy. He likes me. He is very attractive. I felt that right away. I agree with that. He almost gave me a ride after. And then he chose not to. Whoa, what kind of ride? Just like in his car. Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. You got to be clear. Yeah, he got to be very... Don't get excited. Yeah. Anyway, so we're talking to them too. They're from the Swole Patrol. Dr. Drew and Mike Catherwood. Also, I want to remind everybody something exciting is happening. Exciting is happening in this month. MAPS Anabolic, the foundational program. This is the program that started it all. It's the one that we typically recommend people begin with. It's the best program we have for building muscle and strength for most people and for building the metabolism. It's actually the program I go to when people come to me who need to speed up their metabolism, especially women. It's 50% off. It's under $60. You can find that program at mindpumpmedia.com. You can also find our bundles where we take multiple MAPS programs and put them together and discount them. For example, our Super Bundle, which is a year of exercise programming. All those bundles plus the 50% off MAPS Anabolic is at mindpumpmedia.com. And without any further ado, here's Mind Pump interviewing the podcasters, Dr. Drew and Mike Catherwood from Swole Patrol. Swole Patrol. Mike, when did you guys start Swole Patrol? What, is it Drew about six months ago? Yeah, roughly. Yeah, about then? Four, six months ago. We had been getting, since the Love Line days, because Drew and I would geek out. And pretty much every single moment off the air, all we do is talk about diet, nutrition, and training, that it just naturally started to bleed onto the air and people would call up and start asking health and nutrition questions. Then when people started to realize that Drew was into lifting, then they start asking training questions and then it just kind of built from there. And we got so many people that were always like, you guys got to do a health and fitness spot. You got to do a training podcast. And I don't need to tell you gentlemen, it's a saturated market and to separate yourself from doing it. Mike does it with a theme song now. Yeah, it's a saturated market, but I figured, you know, having a real physician, an actual MD that is into lifting, that could be the hook. And so that's when we just kind of went with it. It's saturated, but it's saturated with a lot of bad information. Yeah. You know, pseudo information. It's probably one of the worst markets I can think of when it comes to bad information or best as a businessman. Right, right. If you're going to jump in. Yeah, yeah. If you're thinking about coming in and disrupting it. Yeah, I would say the only thing worse than sort of fitness overall is the subcategory of nutrition. That's worse. Oh, terrible. It's really bad. Yeah. You must be extremely frustrated with your background looking into it. I am because it's, it's sort of, I'm a scientist by training, right? And this is all unscientific or at least bad science and best. And so I have a couple of people I go to like I go to Kate Shanahan because she's a biochemist. You guys know Kate? No, she wrote deep nutrition. I think that was her big. That's just it though. See like some of the best names. Nobody knows who they are. Yeah. Because, because guess what? It's not sexy. It's not headline catching. Science is slow. And it's all you can say for sure. Little tiny things. And she's all about how messed up vegetable fats are and how we got to get back to animal fats. That's her big, that's her big thing. But she's also a big advocate for no grain, no, no starch, carnivore type stuff. So let's talk about that for a second because that's still not accepted in, I guess, modern Western medicine. Well, but it's yes, yes and no. I mean, there's the weirdest thing at all about nutrition is there's religiosity around it. Like people have religious convictions way more so than training. Like, you know, you can get a CrossFit guy to buy into a train for powerlifting or do body weight calisthenics guy. Well, you want to lift weights. I'm fine with that. But that's my thing. Yeah. Keto guys will fight a vegan. Yeah. It goes. Vegans will put a prison. Religion, politics, nutrition. Yeah. And then sort of mental health type topics. And then they get in there too. But I've been very weirded out by that fact. It distresses me when people can't just speak in terms of what we do and don't know questions need to be answered. So sorry to interrupt. But don't you see as someone who does know a lot of guys and gals who are who are putting forth this information, they don't know enough to know that they don't know. Correct. But that sort of is everybody in a weird way. Like, like for instance, so I went on this carnivore diet at his behest. It is challenge. What's what happened to me was I was complained by my shoulder, my back, and I used to lift heavy weights when I was a kid. Me, I'm up to pre-age 35 or something. He goes, you got to go back. We talked to Mark Bell and he goes, you got to lift heavy weights. We went downstairs. We went through some motions. I'm going to start doing heavy movements again. I'm going to start lifting heavy weights and my backup better. And if things got better the way they said, I got fat. And I go, I go, Mike, I know how this goes. I lift heavy weights. It's a bigger, puffier version of what I was. And that's because I told him the metabolic changes are going on. It's making you fucking starving. Right. I really, I really go crazy in my appetite when I lift heavy. I go nuts. Oh yeah. And Drew's a naturally big guy. And so he gets starving and then he starts stuffing himself with BS. And I go, well, your problem is. It's the weights. The weights. Well, no, I go, he's like, all right, all right, I'll try this. He wanted me on the anabolic diet. Within three days of cutting out all carbs and grains and things, I was like, oh shit, this is really something that I feel so much better. And it's just fallen off me. I'm not hungry. And I'm lifting. I'm getting stronger and I'm sleeping better. So I went full into that. I didn't, I didn't go to the carb part at all. And just, just, just went full in. And I've had more to the story, but it was all positive for about six weeks. I mean like crazy positive. I believed it. If somebody had tried to convince me that somebody was experiencing what I experienced. Now after six weeks, it went bad. It, I think I, so I talked to Kate Shanahan last week. She was on my podcast and I was, I was trying to describe to her what happened. She goes, oh, you're not a ketosis anymore. You're eating too much. A lot of the ketone for fuel, particularly your brain fuel, it's got to come from my fat. And I was, I was eating so God damn much of, you know, yummy things, beef and eggs and things that I just was starting to put weight back on. I think that's the number one mistake. I think we know that people do the ketogenic diet is consuming too much protein. Yeah. That's exactly what I did. But I wasn't at first. At first I was clearly doing something right. And I also was, I was chipping on peanut butter and other things and sort of, I just was having weird cravings and shipping on peanuts. So I had a similar experience and the thing that I struggled with was trying to get enough fat in like, I was getting a push. I had that too. Yeah. And when I shared this on the show, and this is part of why, we talk a lot of trash about all diets because everyone is so unique and different and there is no one diet that fits everybody. But let's, let's restate that because, because your opening question was, it's not really accepted by the medical community or anybody, but that fact isn't even sort of factored into the conversation. No. So we're all, this happens to suit my biology exceedingly well. I can tell it's, I'm suited for the hills of the Ukraine where my family is a dear bra probably for something who knows, but, but clearly it's suitable to me. I don't know that it's suitable to somebody from the Yucatan. Well, then you also get like what ended up happening to me was here I, here I was and at that time I was weighing about 225, 230 or so. And I'm a six foot three guy. I'm a big guy. And I was eating too much protein. So I was like, okay, I got a, since I'm trying to stay ketogenic, I'm going to try and increase my fats. Well, I was up to eating like 400 grams of fat. How are you getting it? So that was the problem. It's hard. You got my only source, butter, bacon, butter and bacon. That's all. That's all it's making. I mean, that's drinking. Drinking. Those are the three. Yeah. Avocado kind of, but, but the three. So macadamia nuts. Something's not right about them. I can tell. I can just tell it's not giving me available fat. Bacon. Fine. Yeah, yeah. That can you do safely about heavy cream, but just guzzle heavy creams. Got a bunch of, but even, but even doesn't it does. No, it doesn't drink you that much of it. Regular heavy cream, but even, even, even so though, but at one point I started to ask myself like when, when a good 30 to 40% of my diet was comprised of those four foods, this can't, cause I could, could it be? Yeah. Right. I believe in food rotation. Right then I got my cholesterol check. I thought I got to see what's going on. I've still got bruises from my staff through my blood and my cholesterol had never been better. Yeah. I mean, I'm telling you it was ridiculous. No, that's interesting. I've been trying to get my HDL up for 20 years. It went up like 25. Well, here's the, here's another factor. LDL was pegged and they were both the same actually. And my triglycerides went down on all that bacon. I never would have believed that. Here's the factor. You also got to mention is that I'll tell Drew something way down by there was 75 years ago. That's crazy. Give it like a five year buffer in that. I'll give Drew advice and say he should do something. And then five years will go by and then he'll hear it from someone else. That's part of it. That's part of being a scientist bro. That's what happened until, until they're so close. By the way, I wouldn't even believe that. I wouldn't even be that offended if he waited for it in actual scientists. Cause I certainly have no credentials. Like for instance, I've been telling him, dude, you got to start deadlifting. You got to start really heavy. You know, take care of all your posture problems and your achy back. No, no, no. Mark Bell, he's not a fucking scientist. And he came down for one day. He met Drew for an hour. And next thing I know, Drew's like, oh yeah. I got myself some chalk. I'm ready to fucking go. Hold on. The diet thing was all you this time. You converted me like I did it for you specifically, even though I've been hearing about it forever. In fairness, though, it wasn't until Dr. Baker came through and it's all I, I, I ruminate on this stuff. It stays with me. Trust me. I ruminate. No, I do. And I think, I think, I think I cogitate on it. And then, you know, then I develop a sort of a sense of it. That's how, again, science is all about skepticism, right? Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, until the, until the evidence and stuff that you got to go. I mean, that's, Well, I was going to say, I think part of the problem with, with nutrition is a couple of things. We already, there's some general truths that we find that seem to be true, but there's such a dramatic individual variance. And I think it has a lot to do with a lot of different things, including the body's immune system. Cause now we're starting to learn that. How many times was I sick when we were on the radio together? Oh, all the time. I would not been sick once since this diet. And I can tell it's a different. And you're familiar with like leaky gut syndrome and what they talk about. Yeah. If that exists and we don't really, we don't know what to do with any of that stuff yet. We don't know what to do with the bacterial flora. We know it's important. We know it's something. We don't know what. But sometimes anecdotal evidence can be of value. I mean, especially with the individuality aspect of it. And I go back to the, my bodybuilding days and I remember getting ready for a bodybuilding competition. And I was training with this one guy who was almost exactly my measurements. He was, he was naturally a little leaner than me, but he was about 510, about 180 naturally. And he and I were prepping for the same one. He was eating three, 400 grams of carbs going into the show, weeks into the show, and shredded to the bone. If I went over 40, I was bloated. I would be fat. It just, the variability is not, it's not a little bit. The variety, you know, the variety to what works for each human metabolism is dramatic, you know, between, and that's why, not to mention, I believe that is always changing too. I mean, I can't imagine what it would be like for me now at age 39. That was 23 years old. I feel on this crazy diet, kind of the way I did in my 20s, in terms of my relationship with weightlifting and diet and stuff. But then I was, How about the, how about the boner? Is it better, maybe a little better? Why is it the boner? But it was a distinctive boner. Well, Drew's dick is like God. You have to refer to it as a title. It's the dick, it's the boner. The third person, like a professional athlete. So what did you do to get the fat? That's what I want to know. So it ended up being that I was chasing the boner. So what did you do? So what I ended up doing, I stayed with that for maybe three months. And then eventually got to the point where I said, this just can't be ideal for my body for me to be consuming this much. Plus you started getting palate fatigue from some of that. Yes, yes. I'm right there. What do you do? It's what you do. So well, now I'm back now. So let me explain to what I did before that. So I was competing right before that. And I was eating 600 grams of carbs. So I went from being a 600 gram carb. And what prompted all of this was on our show one day and what something that we all talk about is we're very open to trying different things and exploring that. And I remember these guys, Sal had actually already done the ketogenic diet and he'd be like, you know, I just want you to try and see how you feel. And I'm like, why? I ate 600 grams of carbs. I eat whatever the fuck I want. And you look good. Yeah. I'm 4%. Why would I even think about doing that? And I caught myself saying that on the show and I thought, well, that's okay. Shame on me. Why not then? Why not put myself through that and see what I noticed? Right. So I did. And a couple of things that I really liked. I liked how satiated I felt. I got rid of cravings. Completely. I used to be someone who craved ice cream and shit. Like those things were 100% right. It completely eliminated that. And to stay true and stay lean and stay to a diet became really, really easy. Yeah. And one of the luck that I had was I found myself always eating these kind of same foods. Yeah. So now I live in kind of a more balanced. Like I would say, and I haven't measured and weighed since I competed, but I'm probably more about 200 grams to 250 grams of carbohydrates now. And my fats are probably right around the same. So I can now keep kind of this even. Like that metabolic flexibility. So my fats, I'm not as picky as I was before, right? So they just animal. Yeah. So mostly animal fats. I'm just not as, like, because I kind of, I feel like I'm headed that direction. Let me tell you what I noticed. The big thing was that we kind of ate this way for almost a year. And when I started to reintroduce the carbohydrates, I actually saw this huge like spike in, I felt my hormone levels like my libido kicked up. I felt my strength in the gym kick up and the energy kick up. So as long as I, as long, I had the same experience going to ketosis though. So not, but then it started to kind of plateau after exactly. It's weird. So your brain theoretically likes ketones better than glucose. It's more efficiently brought into the mitochondria. So that's kind of what the high comes from. Your brain's going, this is better. This is better. I felt this to the mental clarity right away. Clarity and didn't need so much sleep and a little bit high, I think. Yes. And then that kind of. Yeah. Then it just kind of leveled out. And I think that's cause it's, most of those ketones comes from our fat. And once you lose, you stop metabolizing so much of your own fat, that thing isn't heavy. Well, I also think that our bodies are just adaptation machines. So I think whatever we throw at it at first, like it's that first initial like, boom, you feel all that. And then after a while, it just kind of leveled out. And it wasn't that I was feeling bad. It was just like, then I went through this. Okay. Well, let's try and introduce some more carbohydrates. Let's not try and just follow a diet. Let's try and feed my body some more carbs and see how it responds. And so far, you know, since I've reintroduced the carbohydrates up to about two to 50, I feel amazing right now. Well, long-term ketogenic diets are correlated with low testosterone after a long period of time. And from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense that sometimes we should probably eat some carbs and sometimes we should go without them, especially seasonally when you look at the seasons. And that's the same thing. When I went keto, I had tremendous benefits. Then I stayed on keto for a very long time. My reasons were a little different than Adams. I have gut issues and avoiding carbohydrates seem to seem to remedy a lot of that. But then after being on it for like a year and a half, I stopped getting the benefits, started introducing more carbohydrates. And now I'm getting like I did. Well, the first time I went keto. Yeah. So I think the body just, just change it back and forth a bit. Yeah. That's what I think. I think that's what's ideal. I think that's right. And that's exactly how I used to teach clients was they give me, oh, what diet? Well, you know, which one would you like to try? Anything, any use on those keto, those powdered ketones? The beta hydroxybutyrate powder stuff. You know what's interesting about, they will raise your ketone levels. I know it kickstarted me a little bit and back into ketosis, I think, I think, or at least helped me regain that feeling. And so I was more motivated. I certainly like him. I mean, I wouldn't have gone that route, but I got a bunch of free stuff. And I certainly liked him from the sense that I got. I definitely felt like a mental clarity. Yeah. Well, we got, we had Dr. Dom Diego Steele on the show and he's like the, one of the experts on the subject. And one of the things he said to me was, we don't know how in the context of not being a natural ketosis and then adding, you know, a supplement with, you know, with ketones, what that's necessarily going to do. Because that's right. Never in, you know, never in nature, you're going to have elevated levels of ketones and also have, you know, lots of glycogen in your body. But that's what a lot of people are doing. And so we don't know exactly what that, you know, what that's going to do. Now I heard you guys mentioned Sean's name. Now, what do you think of that extreme? Cause now you got the guy who eats, we're talking about Sean Baker. Yeah. And you saw his blood work, right? Did you guys see his blood work? He discussed it. He discussed it. Yeah. Lipids were often is testosterone was just in the, was in the, in the basement. But he says he feels really good. And he's theorizing that. What was testosterone? Oh, it was really low. It was below normal. I forgot what the number was. Well, for a 58 year old man, it was like a hundred something. Yeah. It was pretty low. Was it that low? Yeah. I couldn't remember how low it was. 200 something would be certain. It's old man, but, but, you know, Oh no. Drew's is 10,000 stuff. He looks like it's 10,000. Are you guys familiar with the studies that they have, they've done with the continual glucose monitors? Fascinating stuff. They'll find that some people will get a spike in insulin. Yeah. From like an avocado or something more than. So that suggests that there's an immune response possibly going on, right? Cause how can you get a spike in something with, that's just fat, right? Unless, unless genetically you were made that. Yeah. That's how your body responds. I bet I'm one of those people. I've naturally been avoiding avocado cause it doesn't feel the same as the other stuff for some reason. So it's okay. But I don't know. Yeah. But what do you guys whiteness? What do you guys think about what Sean's doing? I think that's crazy to live off a straight ribeye steaks year around like that. I think it's crazy. But then I analyze it from, you know, you're getting back to your point about how adaptive the human body is. Right. You know, I know, I talked to Steve Maxwell about it and he's a guy who's had the luxury of traveling the world and traveling the world with the intention of fitness and nutrition. And he said, one thing you notice is that people can be healthy eating fucking bread. You know, it's amazing how the human body adapts. That's why we develop stuff like that. You know, to deal with starvation. And there's, there's, you know, African tribes that eat nothing but roots, literally nothing but no meat and they're shredded. And then there's people in parts of Eastern Europe that are eating almost like Dr. Baker and they are fine. It can't be optimal though. I don't need that. That's it might be for him. You know, he may have such an reactive immune system because he said he eats any vegetables and he bloats and feels terrible. And I wonder if it's not the diet isn't necessarily what's doing it, but it's the avoidance of all these foods that he has a reaction to. So he's just eating something that he has low reaction to a lot of it, which also seems that, you know, I'm just closer to him somehow. Do we know what his ethnic heritage is or anything? He's very white. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Because if white people come from different places, but I would guess Dr. Baker is the more like Eastern European. That's what I thought. That's my thing. And I had something in that. I don't know. I don't know if it's immune. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. Yeah. I don't know. I think it has to try it, actually. That's one of those because I've actually heard too. It has some benefit to sleep apnea and that's something that my sleep is so much better. I was going to ask you about your sleep. Way better. Way better. And vegetables. It's I seem to slide back when I eat them because I just think it's important. But I start to slide. I start to tell I'm not inflammatory response. No, I'm not. It's not like I'm uncomfortable. It's just like I'm not as elevated as I am when I'm just doing it myself. You got to ultimately listen to your body. We've been in fitness now for I've been doing for over 20 years. And so when we get into discussions like this, it's always like I can think of all the, I've trained thousands of clients and I've had clients that thrived off of a vegan diet. Completely vegan, like literally thrived. I could see the benefits. I could see their health. And there's the religious side. There's another issue too. Is it what are you doing to the planet with all this meat? Yeah. And that's the other religious piece that gets factored in. Oh, yeah. That's the that's where I see the most religious fervor is in the vegan community. And it's not the same as it is with other diets in the sense that, you know, I eat paleo. So I identify with that. Right. It's because they look at it also from a moral standpoint. Yeah. And a lot of them will, a lot of them will disregard their health just because they don't want to eat. Well, and there's something, there's something incredibly admirable about that. I mean, if you look at the vegan diet, purely from a moral perspective, I can respect that I get behind it's, I get upset when that moral take bleeds over to you, trying to tell me that it's actually beneficial for my health. And I go, well, you don't know that. Here's one of them. Let me put a wrinkle in the moral argument, which is that if cows didn't have the present symbiotic, let's let's say they overnight lose the symbiotic relationship they have with the human. Go extinct. Immediately. The species will be gone. You ever want to prevent an animal from going extinct? Let humans buy them and own them. Well, there's also the, own them or benefit from them in some fashion. Absolutely. The other hitch to that. Didn't we find out recently that the plants are just like breathing from the first one? Yeah. So the agriculture kills so many animals to begin with too. So all the golfers and shit. Unfortunate facts. Insects. Are we going to hold? I know, right? Hierarchy. That's, I actually think that's going to be one of the biggest things that we're going to see boom in fitness. Protein. Protein. Is a lot of insects. Why not? Right? It's available. It's people. Yeah. It doesn't taste that bad. They're going to refine it down. I'm sure. We had it. We've had it. It's not that bad. We've had protein bars that are made with it. It's actually not that way. Protein from the, or the dairy proteins from the 80s are vastly different than what we have now. So hopefully the cricket protein in 10 years will be like muscle milk. I don't even know what the fuck that was that we were eating all those. Cause I think all the studies that it came out now that they're fun. They're finally testing all that shit. Go like, yeah. 80% that was on the market. It said was in there. Yeah. We're baking soda. It's a job. Yeah. For the last 20 years. What do you complain to when you eat cricket protein? You find a bug in your protein. I know. Added bonus. It's supposed to be there. What about, what do you guys think about? I think that some of the most exciting science coming out now has to do with fasting. Cause I remember when I first started in fitness. I know. I don't know what to do with that. With this fat diet. Oh, I'll tell you what. Well, now see is when I was eating a regular diet fast and work great. Well, it won't work as well. And I think Volter Longo talks about this. And who else was talking about that? It's like, you're already, when you're running like a high fat or even like a low. It's simulating. It's kind of simulating. Kind of a part of your metabolism is fasting. It is. Even Dr. Baker talked about it with us. I think fasting can be tremendous if you're eating a lot of glucose or any glucose containing stuff. But if you're in a high fat diet or even in a carb deprived situation. Not necessarily nutritional ketosis, but just in a carb deprived situation. It doesn't seem to be as beneficial. But I mean, I know I, I prefer it just because, you know, back in the time when I was eating eight times a day, six times a day, whatever, I, I was constantly hungry, even though I was eating more frequently. Yeah. And I was, I was tired. I mean, there's something about consistently giving myself that feeding. Well, I love, I love the fat regardless of what diet we talk a lot about with fasting is just breaking that these poor relationships with food. Especially when it's small meals every day. Right. I come from that too. I was eating eight meals a day myself and it was all about the timing and I was constantly consuming it. And then when you kind of break free of those changes, I, I mean, I was the insecure skinny kid who can never get bigger. Great. So I always like, you know, I wake up in the morning and my scale would be down three pounds. Oh shit. Three pounds of muscle fell off of me and then I'd be scarfing food all the time. And that's just the opposite extreme of the people that, you know, starve their bodies and over binge and do that. So I like what the fasting does for with just breaking free of that. Oh wow. Look, you don't eat for 24, 48 hours. You're actually fine. Oh, there's, there's a reason why fasting is present every major religion in the world and every major culture. It's, it's been present for thousands of years. And I think that's part, probably part of the reason from breaking those chains. I mean, let's, let's be honest. If you are born and raised in a modern western society, you've probably never felt true hunger. Yeah. And hunger is our natural state. Yes. Yes. We've never felt it. What we, what we attribute to hunger is cravings or context. Like I'm at a birthday party. I'm at the movies. I want popcorn or I'm stressed out. So when you fast, cause I do, I do a 48 hour to 72 hour fast once a month, which by the way is one of the best things I've ever done for my health and for my relationship to food. When you're not eating for three days and you're stressed out or anxious or bored and you can't reach for food, you got to figure out. Okay. Well, how do I deal with this without my drug, which happened to be food. And then of course, like Adam, it's realizing like, oh, if I don't eat for a couple of days, I'm not going to lose all this muscle. I'm not going to freak. It's not going to kill my body. And then there's a strange effect that happens when I start to refeed. I almost get this. How did you feel after a show when you'd start feeding yourself a lot of food? Fantastic. And your muscle, you just blow up. And I get that same effect and post fast. Yeah. But that's a, that's a, you start this glycogen deposition of the muscle. I fluid goes with that. I know that. But I also get this like muscle boost effect. I'm very familiar. I get strength, but I also know, I also see this kind of almost step ladder effect. Well, they just came out with that study recently with the seven weeks on seven weeks off. What's happening? Oh, that's a fact. That's fascinating. Yeah. They took, they took two groups of men and they had one group train hard for seven weeks, take seven weeks off and then work out again. They were testing the theory of muscle memory. You guys have heard of muscle memory before, right? You lose muscle, gain it back twice as fast a second time around. They not only gained back what they'd lost over that seven weeks, but they had also gained an additional weight. Wow. And so they're theorizing. If you know, if there's more to muscle memory than we realize, there's it's like I said, when I fast and this is anecdote about three or four days post fast, I get this incredible, you know, muscle building effect and strength effect more so than if I didn't fast and if I just went straight through in the first place, you trained during my next obsession. Yeah. If I do train during a fast, it's very light mobility work full range. I'm not trying to push my body. I'm trying to go super heavy, but about two, three days post fast. I feed myself very slowly. I get this like I you can ask these guys. I'm a good ten, ten, twelve pounds heavier than I was before. Yeah, and it's it's a hundred percent from what you guys think of some of these genetic tests available for these various questions about what kind of muscle loading should be doing like twenty three me or like what? No, there's a fifty and a fifty and a jeans. I don't know if we know enough. They're very specific. Whole family of jeans they're looking at and I did. I did the profile and man they nailed me. Did they? Yeah, it was an exact. What did they say with yours? They were they were talking about my relationship with glucose and how it would work and they also were saying that, you know, I was I was trying to figure out heavy weight. How I essentially said every time I've had a trainer, they're always trying to take me towards high, high volume and high volume and it's just I don't get anything out of it. And without me saying that he goes, you won't get anything out of that. Oh, wow. You're going to have to you lift heavy weight. He goes, you take more than one day. He said, he goes to take the first one two days off you're going to lose everything. He's actually it's absolutely that's my body type. And I talked about that on a show that the level of frequency that I have to train is just to try me to it. I don't have to kill it every day, but I just got to keep. Yeah, no, just touching it. Now, the more the more experience you have, that's true. Generally as well. The more experience you have of the shorter that muscle protein synthesis signal last and they find that I just read another. You don't work out as hard as long. You have to work out frequently. So like a beginner can work out if hit a body part once a week notice gains. If you're experienced, that muscle building single falls very quickly. So hitting it, you know, frequently it's funny. You talk about lifting heavy and we've been talking about like diets and relationship to, you know, how we evolve. But before you just think that I don't make sure you don't forget to talk about the work you're doing now with that video stuff. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. I hope they go ahead and train a thought. So what I was going to say is, um, you know, heavy resistance training, I think in the context of modern life, like you had mentioned, lifting heavy, your appetite went through the roof. That's your metabolism. Oh yeah. That is not a good thing when you're a hunter gatherer. I know, but in modern modern society, that's a great thing. And you know, we've been speculating this for a while because right now when you go to the doctor or they recommend activity, what do they recommend? 30 minutes of vigor as part of that activity. Nobody says lift weights. Oh no, no, no, I do, but I mean, I have forever because that particularly older patients that would constantly say on that now it's like resistance training, resistance, yes, they got to do it. They don't. I think resistance training, if you look at just, if you have to pick a form of exercise to combat all the problems with modern life, right? Obesity, insulin sensitivity, immobility, loss of bone, metabolic syndrome, resistance training hands down as a killer because you get your metabolism to speed up your muscle. Obviously the more muscle you have, the more sensitive you are to insulin mobility. Look what happens to old people when they fall down and break a hip or whatever, they die from it. Resistance training is the answer. We've been talking about this for a while. I wonder how long it's gonna take before all doctors, not just forward thinking ones like you. It's hard to get people to do it in generations that have no relationship with that kind of movement. Right. I think it'll change the next 20 years. Like older females. And by older, I don't mean old. I mean, my wife, you know, who's 40, she has this aversion to the idea of lifting weights because she thinks she's going to turn into an IFBB pro in a week. Yeah, the film was only that easy. I know. I try to explain that to her. I was like, you understand that every high school football player would would do that. If, you know, they don't, there's not a, there's a reason why so many young men put in out years and years of work to try to gain 10 pounds of muscle. You suddenly think that you're this genetic anomaly that's going to pick up a weight and all of a sudden become this freak. And, and, but, you know, so many, CrossFit's been the only thing that really has gotten women by and large. CrossFit was a revolution in our, and just in the business of fitness, because, you know, managing gyms for as long as, you know, I have squat, we'd have, I'd have a 35,000 square foot gym. I'm talking about like, you know, mainstream gyms, right? There'd be one squat rack or two squat racks, and they'd have dust on them. Now everybody's squatting and deadlifting and even, even women are starting to do it. But it went in terms of resistance training, I'll tell you, you know, training clients, I would get women who would come see me who were consuming 1,300 calories a day, doing eight hours of cardio for the whole week. So over an hour a day, anything over 1,300 calories they'd gain weight, I'd switch them to heavy resistance training, start to reverse diet them, and I'd get them up to 2,000 calories a day with leaner body fat. Just that, that effect on metabolism is just, it's incredible. It's, there is still, I mean, there's this weird thing. I mean, it's just like racism or homophobia or something, generationally, it's going to phase out. And because now there's kids, women as well, that are growing up with the idea that resistance training is as healthy if not more so than cardio. And it's going to, it'll phase out. And who knows me, 40 years it's going to be so mainstream. It's going to come mandatory. What I'm really curious about, what we're going to see, I think in the next 10 years that we haven't really seen the cause from this is the, or the effect from the iPhones and the posture. Yeah. I mean, I personally, I personally saw what it did. So I had this little just, I tore my Achilles about eight months ago, and that was one of the worst injuries I ever dealt with. That's serious. Yeah, I was, you know, it fell off my training and during that time, work didn't stop for me. So I'm constantly still doing what I was doing, but because I was encountering that with my resistance training, I mean, I, and we have like a, we do this, we have a zone test that we do for all people. And, you know, I was going back and it's just for my upper cross-center to kind of see where my forward head and my shoulder, my shoulder girdle is at. And I could see like, I moved inches within just a matter of eight months of not training consistently. And I went, holy shit, like, I'm aware of this. I'm a trainer. I know how to come combat this. And I noticed that big of a difference. Like, what about these 10 year olds and 13 year olds that they're glued to these things four hours plus daily patterns? Like, yeah, I think we're going to see something in, in posture and body mechanic. Yes. That we just so bad. You know, I know, I know you're, you're an expert in addiction. What do you think about the electronics addictions that we're starting to see? Or can you classify it as addiction? You can, but I mean, I always caution against overusing the addictive, you know, sort of model, but in certain things for sure. I mean, whether it's porn being the big one. I mean, obviously for that. And we call it process addiction generally when people are involved with too much with electronic media. The video game stuff, clearly it's an issue whether it needs primary treatment is controversial. Most people with the video game preoccupations have an underlying psychiatric problem. That's one of the big compulsive behaviors when you treat the psychiatric problem, it kind of goes, oh, interesting. It's a lot better, but sometimes some people need primary treatment. Interesting. This couldn't the same be said for actual drugs and alcohol too. I mean, isn't there, how many times is it a drug addict dual diagnosis? All the time, but, but with drug addiction though you have a truly a separate second problem. Yeah, like a physiological separate treatment. I also feel like too with a drug addiction, like it's more obvious of how bad or dangerous it is where like with the phones, like a lot, it's, we're promoting how amazing. It's still, even though it's extra physiological in terms of how we respond to it, it's still normal physiology. Drugs are abnormal physiology. No, I've always said, people always ask me, they say, you know, you're so, you're so courageous and brave that you were able to handle addiction at such a young age. And I was like, no, it actually made it a lot easier. It was very clear that I was a complete pile of shit because I was 21 years old. I had no job. I was living on people's couches. I had no money. If I was, if I was 50 and had money in the bank, I could very easily have rode that into the sunset for a good decade before I was confronted with the notion that my life had gone awry. How long did it take you, like before you realized that? It took me three honest, well, I would say honest try, it took me three tries in rehab, the final one being the truly honest, non-vain effort at trying to get clean. But I, when I, when I was 19, I average is four treatments in five years for the average person. Really? It was three in three. Three treatments in three years. Is that for all drugs or? Well, it's studies have done it's severe alcoholics. Okay. It's four treatment. Was it four treatments in five years? I think it is. In order to get one year of sobriety. What do you, what I was, I couldn't wait to talk to you about. I just watched the documentary. I think it's called Magic Pills. Is that one? Oh no, no, Take Your Pills. Take Your Pills. What do you think about the Adderall? Adderall Ritalin. Fucking disaster. It's fucking great. One in every 10 children. Well, this is the statistic that they said. I can't even. Yeah, I know. So I, I've never experienced it. I'm not even worried about the children. I'm worried about what's happening to the adults. Well, I just took my first one, like maybe a year ago. Yeah. Never experienced before. I, I keep hearing it, keep hearing it, keep hearing it. Adderall? Yes. First time today and we were getting ready to do something and I took that thing and I was like, holy shit. And then someone tells me, like, oh, that's only 10 mil, was it 10 milligrams? I think so. 10 milligrams. We took this. Some kids are up to 20 or 30 milligrams. The generic name for the molecule is dextro amphetamine. It's meth. Yeah. It's meth. It's a methamphetamine. Do you need to know anything else? That's what blows my mind though, is that we're prescribing 13 year olds meth. My profession makes the same mistakes over and over again since about the 1860s. I have a lecture where I just talk chronically all the repetitive mistakes that we make, particularly on the brain stuff. It's unbelievable. Well, I didn't realize how long it'd been around. It's just they keep rebranding it, right? So they keep bringing it out. Yeah. We are, because of the science is shitty because it's all short term. Everything. When you look at brain stuff very short term, you can find all kinds of great outcomes. People wouldn't you love to take that for a couple of months? Oh, if you're a lot better, right? Whoa, I love that. Disaster, a little way. Disaster long term. And so, you know, the studies are never long enough with with these cut molecules, just particularly on the sort of stimulant and addiction side. Do you think that? Do you think the growth of of the diagnosis of 80D and ADHD isn't so much that more kids have it, but that we're just, yes and no. Again, one of the little secrets about ADD is one of the manifestations of childhood trauma, average childhood experiences, ADD. So, why aren't we dealing with the trauma and the average childhood experiences, which we should be. So, yeah, there was a school in Texas that tripled recess time and all but eliminated some of the symptoms in a lot of these kids. I'm sure that. Yeah, absolutely. Talk about your stuff you know right now. Well, yeah. I mean, I'm someone who struggled with the clinical depression and alcohols and drug addiction for a long time. Long period of time. And the, even though I've been, by the grace of God, I've been sober 17 years, I still lingering anxiety and depression was serious problem and I'd been using SSRIs and other different antidepressants and the whole thing. And my wife, who's a full hippie, forced me, I don't want to say forced me, she really influenced me to get involved with this brain training where they mapped out my brain and its electrical activity and then they designed a video game that is geared towards my actual brain and I control it using my brain activity. Not with his thoughts. Not with my thoughts. No, with brain activity. You understand, he is accessing parts of his brain that are not conscious, not thought-oriented, not language-oriented and he's doing it in ways he doesn't understand but because he has the visual feedback when he gets into those regions and whatever he's following. No, that's interesting. You're not actually, I thought you were actually thinking go last year. No, no, no. And I can go out of my way to meditate while I'm doing it and clear my mind. I can think about my fucking go. I'll tell the spaceship that I'm like, like, you fucker, you go and it has no relation to how successful I am. These are the activity in my brain. Much of our brain is not conscious and not connected to this. No, I do. 98% of it is actually. No, well, it's conscious enough to recognize the feedback. Right. And what it does is they're recording my brain activity as I'm playing this video game and it starts to sense a reward for watching this car or this ship go and so it understands that the parameters of certain parts of my brain that are going too high and other parts that are going too low to stay within certain parameters to essentially reward myself with that. So the reward, when the reward zing goes through, it feeds back to all parts of the brain, all kinds of areas. And so that reward gets that part engaged in essentially a Pavlovian type of response. And I'll tell you, I know it sounds wacky and woo-woo in science fiction. It works. I am a much more laid back guy. I am definitely much more in control of it. It's non-meditation. It's not meditation. It's literally accessing and either up regulating or down regulating brain regions. Do you know what part you're particularly in trouble with? My unconscious. Dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex, something like that. I don't know. Find out what it is. I can tell you which brain waves are overactive and which ones are under, but I have to go get the Delta, Theta as you can tell where they are. Oh, yeah, you asked about that? Okay. And how long until you started seeing results from that? I've probably done it 13 times and over a course of like two months. Well, what do you, is it the anxiety you notice or come down? It's just, yeah, I constantly was worried about work, about food, about, you know, I would invent these things to be worried and angry about. Subsequently angry because I would get worried about something and then it would piss me off. And I'm not an angry person, but I internally had this angst and that is gone. I mean, I just, you know, I certainly still get upset about things. But he, so that's his conscious experience of it. The unconscious might have been a big deal that was firing at too high a rate or his ventral tegmental area was overacted from his addiction. The thing, the thing I think that is perfectly applicable to this podcast is that I don't gorge anymore. Now, don't get me wrong, I still create, 4th of July I saw some ice cream or some cake. Still looked good, had a couple bites. The days of cheat day and me going six weeks of eating broccoli and chicken breast and then having four pizzas and washing it down with a six pack of Mountain Dew, it's gone. And I have, I have zero desire to do so. I'm just much more present in everything that I do on my impulse regulation has been dramatically changed. So the way, the way I would say, it's up to us, it's improved wiring probably. He's probably, not only is he upregulating and downregulating every region, he's probably developed some wiring into this. So the brain is now a more integrated whole. That's, that's the, that's a healthy brain. It's an integrated whole brain where all parts are regulating. Now, Drew, you keep saying that it's, it's not meditation. You're making that really clear. Now, do you think that there are some similar benefits that you get from meditating or you think you're completely different? Completely different. Completely different. But there are tons of benefits from meditation. Right, right. But people, that's, they understand what that is. Right, right. People don't tend to understand what this stuff is. Right. Same thing with like EMDR and things like that. We're, we're accessing parts of the brain that, that people don't know they don't, that they have. And so they, they don't, it's counterintuitive to them. I have to go do a radio show, guys. Oh, no problem. That's why we're here at this, Mike. But, but Mike, will you get them give us some advice about what to do with my goddamn shoulder? Drew's shoulder has always been bothering him forever. It started as probably a rotator cuff. Oh, we got the moves for you. And then it just became a fixed goddamn. So we have a, we have a program called Prime. And it's, let me just say, I can work, I can work out all around it. I can do it, lift and nothing happens as long as I don't lift something heavy over my, like this is like not possible. Right. And everything else is probably humorous catching on the shoulder. That's a, that's a, that's a root. I think that's right. It feels it. It's really like the rotator cuff started it and then something happens. It's probably, it's just a recruitment pattern. It's a recruitment pattern. And it's exactly, it's become your default. We just got to change that default. Ask about your little new instrument, whether that's a good idea or not. Oh, yeah. So gentlemen, it's been a real pleasure. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Sorry, I have to run out a little bit early. But I appreciate it. Thank you very much. I got a lot out of this. So thank you. And I'm going to get more when Mike reports to me afterwards. All right. All right. Thank you. Mike, take notes. Absolutely. I don't know how intriguing I am gentlemen without him, but feel free. Very interesting. I wonder if that device, the way it worked is just that you, you had your anxiety issues or whatever, and then you developed these brain patterns as a result and became this positive feedback loop. And it's like you had to interrupt it and going on that computer device or whatever, just interrupt that. Yeah. I think Drew had a way of breaking it down that my brain became more of a comprehensive unit. And that is, that makes a lot of sense to me because I'm such a daydreamer. I can't focus on anything. And I came from an era when ADHD and stuff wasn't necessarily that big of a deal and they weren't prescribing, you know, Adderall to every other kid. Yeah. But I always, I never was a good student and I had no ability to kind of focus on the task at hand. And I feel like I'm just working on a little bit more of my brain than I was before. Very interesting. Do you feel like that was contributing to your stand-up comedy and like it gave you that sort of mindset as far as like, you know, looking at things a little bit differently? Well, it definitely, I definitely got this sense that if task A was important, whether it be school or football practice, task B, C and D were the only things that I was focusing on. And that was what was going on in the grandstands or what I could possibly draw and sneak in and listen to on my Walkman during class. So my point being is that I constantly, not even by my own volition, was looking at the subtext of what was going on in life. And so I think that made for at least the ability to be a radio personality and have the ability to talk extemporaneously for long periods of time because I never was really focusing on anything else that anybody else was focusing on. Right. You know, I always had these weird kind of ideas and stuff that was popping out. Yeah, that's a good question because I wonder how much of that contributes to just the creative process. You know what I mean? Of being a little scattered or seen things differently. Yeah, very interesting. And there was a fear that comes from trying to think differently. And once I got past that and I realized I found an industry where people would celebrate it, then it became great because you kind of got the sense that well, no, maybe sometimes people want to hear a different spin on things. Mike, I want to ask you about your bodybuilding history and your fitness history early on. Like, let's talk because you and I are the same age. So you were into the stuff right around the same time I was. What initially got you into that sport into that world? I think like, well, first sports in general. I mean, I was an athletic kid. I wasn't, by any means, someone who's going to be a high-level college athlete or anything. But I was always super athletic guy, always good, better than the rest of the kids in all sports. So I could play varsity level and stuff, could play high level. When I was in Little League, I was always one of the better kids, the whole thing. So when I got to be about 13, 14 years old, the notion that I wanted to lift weights was just automatic. And in the early 90s to the mid 90s, I think there was a real, you were hitting a real high level of the IFBB pros and stuff. It was just a really good era. Oh, you had LeBron, you had Yates, you had Wheeler, all those guys. And you start picking up the Flex magazines and stuff. And even the muscle media, the more mainstream palatable stuff too, it was, I think, a really good era for that kind of stuff. And I sucked it up and I got into it and started lifting heavy, pretty young, 14, 15 years old. And I just took to it. It was something that I took to. I never really was automatically or naturally good at much of anything. But I quickly could gain muscle and I quickly could lift heavy compared to the other kids. I wasn't an endurance athlete. I never could run the mile very fast and I wasn't a sprinter. But within a couple of months, I could squat three plates and stuff like that. And it felt cool and it felt great. And it was something I was good at. And I was good at and it felt healthy and rewarding. And so very quickly, I kind of became hooked on it. Now, did you train and compete naturally or were you using anabolic during this period of time? I didn't ever have any desire to compete in bodybuilding. I never had anything against it. I just never thought that that was something for me. And then when I got sober, there was this lingering feeling. I have really bad body image issues, much better now than before. But one of the things that kind of came up through therapy was the idea that I could tackle this head on, the person who is afraid of swimming or afraid of the ocean start surfing or something. This was my way of combating it. And I went about it in the most unhealthy way and then immediately started doing 500 milligrams of test in Becca every day or every week and then trend and eating stimulants and stuff like that. And achieved the desired goal physique-wise. But then I never really got to the center of what was bothering me. But that was certainly my unhealthy motivation to get into competitive bodybuilding. And I think that it really skewed the way that I looked at it in the long term because if I would have gone about it in a much more healthy fashion, or at least in a much more holistic fashion, I probably would have been something that I was stuck with and had such a cynical kind of view on. Now, what did you think of your peers? Did you think that they too had body image issues and were you not even paying attention to what your peers were doing when you were competing? No, I wasn't. And I wasn't someone who was in it for the competition, meaning if I finished second, I was fine. I was just happy I could go eat some chili fries and donuts. You know, I wasn't like a guy who was like, I'm gonna fucking take them to the trophy. So I also was just happy that I had a bunch of dudes that were into something that I was into. And I had training partners and people that would encourage me and I could encourage them. The camaraderie aspect of it was much more appealing than the competition aspect. Did you feel a major burnout at all after you were done? Did you find yourself from living the six to eight meals a day training like crazy? And then you're like, okay, I'm done with this. What was that transition like? I started to analyze the use of antibiotics and the use of stimulants as something that was compromising my sobriety. When I looked at recovery, I was thinking to myself, what am I doing here? I'm just trading one for the other, right? I'm not drinking and I'm not using cocaine, but am I truly giving my all to my recovery? And I wasn't. And so that transition, getting clean and really having to commit to post-cycle therapy and having to just put my hands up to the loss of my gains and all that kind of stuff, it was hard. It was certainly hard to deal with. And it gave me an FU mentality where I was like, well, fuck the whole thing. I'm just going to give up and I'm not going to give up. But gradually I got back into a more healthy view on things. And it didn't help that I was doing a morning show at the time. And I was getting up at 3.34 in the morning and staying at work till sometimes till sundown. There was no way I was going to sleep eight hours and there was no way that I was going to get proper recovery. So I was burning the candle both ends. It was probably the best thing for me to be able to step back and take a break and get control of my health as opposed to get control of my abs. How many years was that that you were actually competing for than how long did you do it for? Probably about four or five years. Now, do you now still have to be on TRT or were you able to? No, no, I'm. Oh, wow. Yeah, so. That's great. But I mean, we're talking about, God, almost a 15-year span now. I mean, this was the early 2000s. Now, I ran. So when I competed and that was just not that long ago, I was in it for four years or almost four years. And I was on TRT at 30. I'm 361 on 37 now. And this is the first time my girl and I are trying to get pregnant right now. So I'm actually trying to be off completely. And it's been I'm coming on my ninth month. And boy, the last, you know, eight months was was rough. Right. How long did it take you before you kind of started to feel normal again? I wish I could say it was quick years, you know, years where where I really felt like there was pieces of the day that I enjoyed. I mean, because initially, especially after post-cycletherapy ends, it was really rough. Like I got how am I going to get out of bed today? Yeah. People don't realize how depressing it is when you're testosterone is in the basement. I know. And I wish more of that was talked about because there's such an allure to using gear. And I'm not and I'm not the by any means of my some guy that's going to be like, dude, only natural, the only way to go. I totally understand the appeal. And if you're going to do it, go about it, but just go in knowing that the fallout is tremendous. And the psychological and emotional tie-in is huge. It's not just about losing your gains. There is a price to be paid psychologically. Yeah. One of the things that one of the big problems that I see or struggles I see with it is, because I've known a lot of guys and girls who've done that. And one of the biggest problems is you learn how to train and feed your body in that state of being when super physiological doses of anabolic. So what you think you know about training is not right, because then you go off and now you're natural and you're training your body, or at least you remember how to train your body when you were on all this stuff. And it's like, my body's not responding like it used to. I just want to stop everything. Did you find you had to change your training eventually and just kind of figure things out? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of it happened naturally. It was during the time that I had kind of got clean off of the gear. This is now four or five years of getting clean off of narcotics and of alcohol. One of the guys that not only did I party with, but that I trained with and used gear with a lot was a guy by the name of Orlando Sanchez. And he transitioned from being a powerlifter and bodybuilder. And he's just a naturally gifted guy. I mean, he's squatting five plates, no problem for reps. And he was one of those guys, big man. But he transitioned from powerlifting into jujitsu. And so he got me into jujitsu as a way of kind of like just scraping me up off the ground of the depression and the fallout. And so naturally, I had to stop being so worried about carb count and nutrition timing and feed myself for performance and for health. And the tie-in helped tremendously because I started to realize how not only how my body would react as far as my physique and the aesthetics to certain foods, but how my body would feel. If I was going to go train, yeah, it's okay to have a couple bananas. Maybe one of the most brilliant things you did. Yeah, I did the exact same thing. I did the exact same thing. I went from heavy, heavy, you know, training and then, you know, and I would take the over-the-counter designer steroids, which, you know, you can't buy them anymore, but it wasn't that long ago. You could buy like, you know, methyl master draw or, you know, whatever, which were basically steroids that you buy over the counter. And I take those and there was a moment where I said, I got to stop all this and start taking care of myself. I did the exact same thing. I started doing jujitsu and jujitsu was so good because if you want to be good at jujitsu, you have to focus on the technique and necessary, and being the biggest, strongest student isn't necessarily going to help you. Absolutely. So I was able to take my mind off of the, I got to be big and strong and okay, I want to perform a jujitsu. I was able to change my diet, able to change my training and it really helped that transition. Because if I just stayed in the weight training aspect of it, I think it would have been so much harder. Yeah, and if I would have stayed in it, and I never in a million years was one, I never was one of those kids that sat at home when I was a little kid, like a secret or something. I never thought I'd be doing what I'm doing now. I never thought I'd be on the radio. I never thought I'd be on TV or something like that. So if I would have stayed in that world, you know, when I was 22, I was 225 pounds and my traps were hitting my ears, can't exactly go on TV like that. I mean, unless you're the rock, which, you know, I say Arnold, it's hard to present on Access Hollywood when you're wearing a size 56 suit, you know what I'm saying? B.S. Gorilla. So yeah, it's just one of those things that it happened to work out in a way that was serendipitous. How did you get into what you're doing now? How did that start? God, man, I was a wannabe rock star and that's where the drugs and alcohol came in. And when that failed, for myriad of reasons, I moved back to LA. I'm actually from here and it came hat in hand to my parents saying that I needed help and I got a job at K-Rock, the radio station here, the rock radio station here, as like a side gig, you know, as a way to put food on the table and to pay my rent, just at entry level job. You just walked in and applied there, or did you have connections at all? No, no, no, no, no. I was literally looking for jobs and I was a custodian at a prosthetics lab. So this could have been almost anything that's kind of crazy. I was just looking it for job availability and they were hiring at the entry level to push boxes and drive the jocks around and stuff like that, hand out stickers. So I applied, I got a job there and I started prank calling the morning show and doing pranks around the station and... On purpose? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like they told you to? Or you were just fucking around? No, no, I was just busting balls. It seemed like an incredibly good place to bust balls and it really was. Oh, that's great. And about a year later of working in that job, the morning show was hiring for an assistant production job and people around the station had said, oh, this guy's funny and he's really stupid, he'll do stupid shit. And they hired me and then that was like 2003 and then I just had a career in broadcasting. I don't know how. It was one of those things that you couldn't believe. I mean, when you got into it, was it, did you feel like you were a natural right away? No, no, no. I was like... Because I look back to our old episodes, I think we were terrible, right? I was good, but everybody else was right. But no, no. And when I'd get on the air, I felt self-conscious and I was nervous. And I felt like I was a naturally funny person and that somehow I couldn't translate that to being funny on the air. I'd get so self-aware. But then, like with anything, reps happen and my heart rate stopped changing when I was on the air and off the air and then things happen. And I really, by total accident, built a career in broadcasting and then got on TV and that was... Do you remember? And you're like the jingle master. That is, if I have any God-given talent, it's the ability to on the spot make up silly, stupid, catchy songs. Which is a great talent. It's been great for podcasting and stupid jingles on the radio. But it's been excellent. I had a daughter and I could just make up bullshit songs about like, oh, look at the balloon is going to the moon and then we could say, she thinks it's... Dude, my kids make me read every single story. I have to make shit up and make it about poop and farts and whatever. Just to keep their entertainment. But it's awesome because they think you're John Lennon. Yeah, yeah, they do. Do you remember my ego? Do you remember points in your career that were like milestones, like that you were like kind of leveling up your skill set? Do you remember? Yeah, I was like the first big like moment for you on radio where you're just like, fuck yeah, I killed it or I'm doing things or... Well, there was the moment where I realized the morning show I was on, the Kevin and Bean morning show here is, you know, it's been on the air in Los Angeles for 30 years. It was this, just this cornerstone of broadcasting and the largest radio market there is. And when I realized that they trusted me to be on the air without any cause, without any double checking when they knew that if I had something to say that they could turn to me, that was something that really meant something to me. But when I started hosting Love Line, that was it. I grew up listening to Love Line. I grew up taking Corolla and Drew's advice and really applying it and thinking it was so hysterical and crank-calling the show. I crank-called Corolla and Drew twice as a little kid, you know? Do you remember what you said? Yeah, one time I called, Cypress Hill was the guest. It's probably like 92, 93. And I... You're like 12 or 13. Yeah, yeah, it was summer before eighth grade or summer before freshman year, somewhere in that ballpark. Insane of the membrane around that ballpark. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so Cypress Hill was the guest and I called saying that I smoked so much weed that I could lactate that my breasts had grown and I could actually like... And Dr. Drew's like, well, that's physiologically impossible. And B Real was like, no, no, I think I have a homeboy. I've heard about that. Yeah, that was my only successful prank call, you know, at least in my eyes was successful. At first 15 minutes of fate right there. Yeah, but then, you know, so when I started hosting the show, it's for a long period of time, for like six months in, it seemed surreal. Like I couldn't believe that I get to interview rappers and rock stars and take kids' calls about sex and drugs and stuff. Like that's what I do for a living and people pay me for it. This is fucking awesome. Weird, yeah. How did you meet them then at that? Because you were a fan, how did you get a chance to meet them and get on the show? Well, the flagship station for Love Line was K-Rock. So I was already working at the station. And Corolla had left to go on and do his own morning show. And so there was this vacancy. And for a period of time, Drew tried to do the show by himself. And I took it upon myself to throw my hat in the ring and I approached the program director and I said, I really think, you know, with my experience and being in recovery and being a complete sexual fuck up, that I, you know, I can bring something to the show. And so he started trying me out and then lo and behold, they thought it was a good idea to hire me. How about the beginning of your podcast now, Swole Patrol? How did that start? It really was organic. Like when Drew and I stopped doing Love Line. When was that, by the way? When did you guys stop doing that? 2015, yeah, somewhere around there. So was there any particular reason why it started? It was quite popular. Yeah, I started to have other work. And then the show itself, it, because of the prescription pill epidemic, it had transformed into an addiction show. And it was an abuse and addiction show. And I had felt like it was starting to take its toll on me. It was really, it was actually- Interesting. Emotionally taking its toll. I could only come home from work at one in the morning every night and talk to three people about being raped and four people about being touched by their father and another 20 people about how their wife's leaving them because they're addicted to Percocet. And I realized, I was like, I'm not, I didn't have any training. I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm not an MD. I don't, I can't deal with this, you know? And so I told Drew, the show will go on if I leave, yes? He's like, yeah, I don't like it, but we'll figure out something to do. So I resigned from doing it. Was that a big risk for you financially? I would think that was probably a big bulk of your income at the time, or were you making other stuff on side gigs that didn't really stress you out at all? It was a big risk financially, in a sense, but at the same time, my wife's an actress and a successful one. So I mean, not to sound like, yeah, well, I'll just rely on my sugar mama. But it was, you know, there was no real overreaching threat because my wife was on a sitcom. My wife was on a network sitcom. You know, it was like, it was this stupid money, you know, you know, for her. So the bills would be taken care of. And I had other established jobs. But I, you know, it was something that I really felt like in the long term, it was going to be beneficial for me, even though I really did love, love doing it. Drew figured that the show would go on, I think like four months after me leaving the show, Drew's like, I can't do this anymore. He just, I know that he, a piece of it was that he really liked doing it with me and it wasn't the same without doing without doing with me. But another piece of it was, Drew had been doing it for 32 years. Damn, it was that long. I was doing it for six and I was feeling burnt out. Oh, I listened to it and I was a kid. Yeah, exactly. It's been that long. That's why I got all my sex education. No, I was in high school. I remember listening to him too. I didn't realize it was that long. That's a long ass time. It was the longest running syndicated radio show in America. Oh, wow. Crazy. 32, you know, in the early 80s it started. And I think he had really felt it transformed too because when it started, that was like at the height of the AIDS epidemic. Right. It was all sex talk. STD and sex talk. They really needed that show. And in the 90s it continued because there was the fallout from the AIDS explosion or what was perceived to be the AIDS explosion. And there was the introduction to the first American heroin explosion after the crack epidemic. And so there was constantly this ever-changing need to have a show like that. I think the internet changed a lot when kids could start googling everything and then feeling like they were the expert. They didn't need to check with a doctor anymore. And honestly, the prescription pill stuff just deflated everything. That's bad. It's horrifying. And it's totally different than other narcotic problems. Makes sense why Drew was so like, about it right away. Since I brought it up, you could tell that's just like a sour taste in his mouth. Well, because then he'll be the first to admit it's his colleagues that are causing the problem. It's that there's such a lack of understanding of the disease of addiction amongst the medical community. People always get into, oh, it's a big pharma. No, the reality is, is that people are prescribing some of the most powerful and dangerous drugs on the planet for people with broken fingers. And that's something that shouldn't be done. Yeah, you said that you were having a tough time when it got to that point and coming home and dealing with all that. And I find there to be a very therapeutic effect from our show just for me. And we've all talked about this. Do you find podcasting to be therapeutic for you as well? I do when the scene is right. Yeah, man. If we're talking nutrition and training with people, experts in the field, it's nothing like it. You know, it's great. Any time you can do, get paid to do something that you really legitimately. That you would do off air anyways. I mean, you guys will get out of this podcast, get back in an Uber and continue to talk training and nutrition. Absolutely. You know, so it's awesome that you can do that. And I'm the same way. So for me, it's awesome. Now, when it goes south and it becomes work, yeah, it can suck. You know, when you get someone on who's dogmatic about certain things or refuses to be open-minded about certain ideas or gives one word answers, you know, when you have a hard time just interviewing somebody. Yeah, how often does that happen when you get an interview? I feel like almost every, I'm always wrong. Somebody who I think is going to be amazing. They sit down in the chair and I'm like, fucking dry as shit or dogmatic or just one word answers. It's really particularly frustrating in podcasting because you reach out to these people thinking that they're experts in the field and they're going to have something to say. In the old radio days, it was something you prepare for because you don't oftentimes expect rock stars and stuff to be lighting the airwaves on fire. I mean, oftentimes they're aloof and they're just like potentially high. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you go into interviewing bands and stuff, knowing like, well, there's a potential. These guys are going to fucking suck. Let them plug their album. They're super high. I got to carry this thing. Right. But it is a little bit frustrating in podcasting because you're like, why did you even agree to do this if you're not, I mean, the whole point of a podcast is for you to kind of promote what you're doing and give some insight. Some dialogue. Yeah. Be enthusiastic. Yeah. Yeah. So then, so let's get to Swole Patrol. How did that go? How did that start? Well, Drew and I had always been and you even commented when you sat down, it's like alarming how muscular Drew is. I mean, a lot of people don't really know that. I didn't even know that. Yeah. I walk in, I'm like, this guy can see that on TV. Yeah. Drew's got like 17 inch arms. Drew's really into lifting and training and he likes it and he's into it and he's interested in it, intrigued by it. And we always, always, man, pretty much every second off the air, if we weren't talking Instagram models, we were talking about. I feel like something you guys could be just like, for sure, we all live the same town. Yeah, we don't be hanging out all the time. And then I'll show Drew like some Instagram models, some new girl that I find, and he analyzes it like, this is a brooder tape. It's like, oh, yes, yes. Let me put my glasses on. I see what you did there. Nice hip to waist brace you. But we were constantly talking, training, constantly talking, lifting and, and, and exercise and nutrition. And people would request it. We would get tweets, we would get bubble and, and, you know, people would send us tweets like, I just started doing keto. What do you think about, I'm feeling tired, tired of getting all these wacky questions. And then naturally it just like the idea came about now that we weren't working in radio together, let's try to do a podcast together. And so what would, what should we do to kind of separate it? And we thought, let's do a health and fitness one. And then it just kind of came about. Now, is it hard, because there was a couple of times when we were talking earlier where you would comment and you'd say, yeah, you didn't listen to me when I was saying it for the last couple of years and you listened to someone else. Sometimes the medical community can be so difficult to convince or to talk to when it comes to nutrition and training. Some of the most pushback I've ever gotten in fitness has been from doctors, you know, like telling them, like, no, I don't think Mrs. Johnson should eat a 75% carbohydrate diet. I think she needs to eliminate. How was that? How does that work between you guys when you guys are talking? Well, I don't think he doesn't listen to me because he's a doctor. I think he doesn't listen to me because I'm me. So if you pushback I get isn't from, you know, from a medical perspective, I think it's just that he just doesn't listen. Which, you know, I understand, you got to understand, like when you have that much understanding of the human body and physiological activity and chemistry, when people are not scientists, you are, you, it's easy to be dismissive, you know, and I totally understand that much like if some fat fuck came to you guys and started giving you training advice, it would be very easy to just be dismissive about it. You know, the human body has so many millions of different cellular processes that someone like myself who has really very little understanding of those, from a physiological standpoint, I oftentimes defer to him even when it comes to certain things. So there was never any real friction in me not getting him to, but there was a tremendous amount of validation when in turn I told you it was down the road. I'd be like, see you asshole if you would only. Well, plus there's so much, I mean, let's be honest, there's so much bullshit in our industry. I mean, the supplement market alone is just absolutely insane. And you've been doing this long enough to see all the different pieces of that market grow. And I mean, when we were working out as kids, there wasn't a pre-workout supplement market, really. No. Now all of a sudden it's like, you got to have your pre-workout something with the right amino acids and the right, you know, whatever. And kids are always tweeting me, they're like, what's the best pre-workout I got? I go coffee. Yeah, nothing better. It's pretty awesome. Right. It's amazing. It's cheap and it's effective. It would be surprise. One ingredient that works. I just read, I just showed these guys a study that just, just today where they compared two groups of people. One group had a hundred milligrams of caffeine, tyrosine, theanine. I forgot a couple of their new tropics. And then the other group just had the caffeine. Guess which one performed better? Really? The pure caffeine group performed better. So what a drug. Yeah. Although the subjective effects of the other stuff was they felt more awake. Yeah. But when they actually did the cognitive test, the pure caffeine group did better. I've said that hands down, overall, if you really do a checks and balances of the ups and downs, side effects are caffeine is the best drug on earth. Yeah. What most widely used. And it's just the best. As far as effectiveness, as far as desired effect, effectiveness, safety. Lack of side effect and positive benefits. Lack of long term, any prolonged effects. It's the best because like cocaine's awesome. I put LSD up there and everything. But there's always a litany of negative fallout on the back end. And with caffeine, there's just no, I mean, I can't think of maybe aspirin, you know, is another up there winner. Which is fascinating because we're in the middle right now in the last 10, 15 years, the pre-workout market is just exploded. I know. It's the number one supplement that's sold. And really right now, the majority of the benefits that everybody feels. It's all the stimulus they put in on it. Right. But I mean, the majority, the real bang for the buck in those things is the caffeine. Right. And all they're doing is just jumping it up. I mean, to be fair, I will occasionally turn to those. But I got to be honest. Mostly it's just because of like the taste. Sometimes I'll find one like a bang or something where I'm like, this is fucking delicious. It's got no calories and everything goes, you know, and one out of three workouts. I'll turn to something. I think it was was it Super Pump 250 that really blew that market up. I remember the advertising in the magazines. It was absolutely brilliant. They would show guys before and after the workout. So they'd have these dudes that already had a lot of muscle and everybody who lifts weights knows if you got a decent amount of muscle, you look way different when you get a pump and they'd be like before and after Super Pump 250. I'm like, I remember reading the magazine, be like these motherfuckers. This is some brilliant shit. It's like the biggest group of snake oil salesmen. Oh my God. Supplement market is terrible. It's crazy. It's absolutely terrible. Is there is there anything that you use now on a regular basis? Not really. Fish oil, you know, creatine. I mean, creatine is the most stunning that come on. That's people benefits for sure. And, you know, creatine, fish oil, and like, like I said, caffeine. I mean, I'm a big, big believer. As far as like even micronutrients and stuff, like I take magnesium at night. I find it like that. And some, my doctor told me to bump up my vitamin D. So I did. But besides that, it's literally the exact same stuff. It's over the magnesium. Yeah. The two, the other, the two kind of, you know, gray market things that I'm seeing now that you're starting to hear athletes talk about using endurance athletes are using cannabis to enhance the performance and endurance. And then I've been reading now that some lifters are using Viagra. Yeah. Have you heard of this? I heard about that. Now that was an old school thing. I ever remember back as a kid coming in the gym and seeing pills of Viagra on the floor and stuff. So that was something that they used to do back then. Now the, the theory back then was. The pump, right? The NO2 was to vasodilate you. And that's why they, they did it back then. Now I don't know how much of that is true or if it actually really works. Well Dexter Jackson told me, not to name drop too much, but I work out at, at Golden Venice. So I mean, I'm, I'm constantly bumping elbows. But he's like, it makes no sense. Why would you want to get your pump quicker? You want to delay the pump so that you could get more. The idea of taking a Viagra and then I'm, I'm artificially swolled up at 10 reps when I could have gotten 16. That's an interesting theory. Well, the studies that that's an interesting theory, though, what he's saying. Cause you could, I could see people who don't really track their workouts or plan anything with that, that you chase the pump, you get this pump, and you're like, Oh, cool. I'm done. You know what I'm saying? I got this massive pump. Right, right. And maybe not even realizing that they could be doing exercises that are more effective or whatever, because they're getting a pump. So easy. Right. Yeah. They did studies on it and showed improved performance at altitude. Otherwise they didn't see any improved athletic performance. The other one that I'm seeing this gray market kind of thing is this micro dosing of LSD. Yeah. You're starting to see a lot of that where people, have you heard about any of this? Yeah. I know it's like some, some entertainment types and some tech geeks that do it and they, they purport amazing benefits. It's something I can't even think about doing because of addiction. But you know, whatever, Drew is even signing off on they're doing ketamine infusion in a clinical setting. For depression? For depression. And he's seeing a lot of huge benefits from that. And the MDMA for like couples therapy and stuff. So I'm sure, listen, every drug, whether we could consider them quote unquote good or bad, was invented for a reason. Right. And every single drug, Drew always says, there's no such thing as a good or bad drug. There's just how you use it. Right. Every drug is good. Every drug is bad. It's just a matter of, in what capacity. Morphine, if you got shot in the stomach, is the best thing in the world. Morphine, if you're in World War I, is a godsend. Morphine, if you are addicted to it and you're taking it because you're a soccer mom that is depressed, is the worst thing on the play, you know? And if you're going to use MDMA for couples therapy, it's fantastic. If you're at EDC and you're taking your 7th fit. Every weekend. Yeah. What does your training and diet look like now? You had mentioned keto style diet. No, not as much for me because, you know, with Muay Thai and jujitsu and stuff. You need the carbs. I just, yeah, I feel like when I'm not glycolytic, I balk too quickly, man. And the stakes are too high. Not so much in jujitsu because I'll just tap. But in Muay Thai, if I'm a minute into a three minute round and I'm tired, I'm like, That's not a good place to be. It's terrifying. It's more terrifying than anything when I feel like I can't even raise my hands and this guy's kicking me in the fucking head. So I'm much more, I'm cognizant of my carb intake, but I'm much more carb fueled than someone who would be in a ketogenic diet. And I train, I do resistant training day one. I'll do some type of interval training day two, and then take day three off. Now, that doesn't mean completely off. I might train in a martial art, but as far as fitness kind of. And then I just repeat that. So one, two, three is my breakdown. And it works for me. And I try to stay active throughout the day, too. It's another thing. From my old bodybuilding days, I used to train as hard as I possibly could, and then just try to engage in nothing but recovery. Try to conserve calories. Outside of that. And now I'm constantly going on walks. Just because and trying to go out for a swim, go surf, whatever it is, just these little teeny bursts of activity throughout the day. Mike, what consumes most of your time now, like business-wise? Like how much are you putting towards podcasting? How much TV? How much radio? Like what's your- TV's the most as far as business. Radio takes up very little. I only do radio once a week now on SiriusXM, on my friend Jason Ellis, the Jason Ellis show, on his faction talk. And that's only once a week. So that's my only real radio commitment. But television with Access Hollywood has been probably my biggest right now, my biggest commitment business-wise. Talk about that. I mean, I don't think I have any friends that actually have the experience like you do in all three of those facets, and then even dabbling in doing what you're doing and podcasting. What do you see the difference in all the different mediums, like everything from financially to how you enjoy it? Creative control. It's the number one biggest difference. And that's why podcasting is the best. Obviously, television financially is still the best. I mean, there's nothing like- As far as work, actual work you do to the money you get paid, television is still science fiction. You go, what? What? You're gonna pay me this much? Now, it's not because it's such hard work. It's not. And whether you're an actor or a broadcaster, you get paid way too much for the work that you do. The reason you get paid so much in television is because there's more job applicants than any other job in the world. And there's less job openings. So to get through the crucible of actually getting a job, a high-paying job in television, whether you're an actor or a broadcaster, getting to the point where you got there, you had to eat so much shit. And you had to do so much. You had to work so much and deal with so much of being told no and rejection and ridicule and all that to get to the point where you actually have that job. That's why they pay you ridiculous amounts of money. Even more so in acting. My wife's an actor. And her life's good. And the amount of bullshit that they have to put up with is so fucking insane. I mean, it's truly remarkable the amount of ridicule, the amount of dismissiveness and rejection and how brutal that industry is. That's why they get paid. Because it's not the work that they do. Filming a half-hour sitcom is not that hard. And it's not that it really takes very little work and you get paid insane amounts of money. But to get to the point where you're doing that, you had to do so much and endure so much. Now, what about like the politics? Is it very political and a lot of shit like that too? Yeah, I just did an online piece for Control Forever, which is like an online news outlet. And they had me do an online investigative thing for interviewing the Bloods and the Crips. And then getting to know the modern day aspect, the modern day life of gangbangers. So it was fascinating, right? But I was talking to this girl yesterday when I was doing that. And she's a blood and she's a young lady, early 30s. And she was talking about her life. And she said, You obviously didn't wear that jersey right now. I was doing the same thing. It's so funny how I had to really go out of my way to find clothes that aren't blue and red. I was like, man, is there any? Yeah. So I had to wear like black pants and a white t-shirt. But she said, listen, the streets don't care. The streets don't care about you at all. And the same goes the entertainment industry. The entertainment industry doesn't care. And you can get this idea that, hey, oh, this manager, he actually, he's my friend, man. He cares about you. This producer on this TV show, man, oh, he's looking out for my best interest. No. The industry as a whole is a monolith. And they don't give a fuck. It's about bottom line. It's a more callous industry and more divorced industry from human emotion than any other. Wow. Really. What is it? Even more so than athletics, because at least athletics, you understand that. Right. You go and you see the performance decline. It's just like, sorry, you're not going to get the job done. We got to cut you. We love you. Yeah. You're hometown favorite. You know, the fans love you. But now do you guys do you and your wife get like feedback like, oh, the show's performing really well, this and that. And you know, or it's, hey, it's underperforming. Step up. Like, do you get any of that feedback? Or yeah, I mean, my wife much more so. I mean, the actors constantly ratings are just such a, unless it's streaming service like Netflix or something, they, you know, they, that's really much more subjective. But networks, they, it's constantly just analyzing the trades and reading, you know, ratings and stuff. I mean, they're inviting those nails and wondering when, you know, your show's going to get its acts, you know. How has Hollywood changed as a result of like Netflix? And yeah, the new media scene. Yeah. It's the radio has changed because of podcasting. So much. And I think, I don't know if Hollywood's changing quick enough. That's the problem. They don't, I mean, I don't understand how networks, now I'm very blind to the reality that is, I always say to myself, how can anybody watch this bullshit show, fill in the blank show on CBS, NBC, ABC. And what I don't realize is that's because all my cool hip friends are all talking about this new HBO and Netflix show. But the reality is 25 million fucking people watch this show that I think is so stupid. So we all can make fun of it and how archaic this system is. But clearly with advertising and with ratings, the networks are still doing something right. They're just not on the cutting edge. You know, if you watch, it's a big ship too, that's hard to turn. It's a hard ship to turn. And, you know, recently Rolling Stone magazine was up for sale. And, and they, you know, they were filing for bankruptcy. And it was this big deal, you know, Rolling Stone, how good, and my friends are like, how could Rolling Stone have come so far and gone so far down? And I say, it's very easy. Didn't evolve. It didn't. And I could totally understand doing it. If I'm the editor-in-chief of Rolling Stone and I have Iggy Pop on my speed dial, and I have, you know, Dave Grohl on my, on my speed, and I'm just chit-chatting with Trent Reznor, do you think I'm going to let someone from Vice tell me how to do my job? You know, I was like, are you kidding me? I used to party backstage with Led Zeppelin, you little kids and your new internet, you know, your new fangled business. You're going to tell me how to do my thing. It's very easy to understand how people get stuck in their ways when they've had such large amounts of success. And the same thing goes, I think, with, with radio and, you know, oh, really? A couple million people listen to Joe Rogan's podcast. You know, I've got ratings all throughout the 80s and 90s. I used to back the brink truck up with my radio station. You know what I'm saying? It's very easy to get caught up in this idea that, well, I've had such amazing success. How could there be a new way of doing things? And the reality is there's definitely a new way of doing things. So is that part of the, the pivot for you guys to even have Swole Patrol? Is it kind of like to protect yourself? Because I think it's really smart that you got, I mean, you think about, you've got your hands in almost everything. That was a latent benefit. The reality was like, I wanted to have something that I could have creative control over, because I love doing Access Hollywood, but I go in and I... I do what the bosses tell me. I mean, I get to interview people and it's a live show, which is awesome. You know, it's great. And I get to interview people that in a fashion that I want to ask the question I want to ask, but when the show is over, you better believe the producer is going to come, you know, executive producer is going to come and be like, and didn't work out for me and you better do it this way. You know, because he writes the checks. So it's the bottom line. Doing a live show like that where you, I mean, you've got to be on. Do you have tricks that you've picked up over the years of like tactics? If you have a guest that fluffs or draws a blank or the air time, I'm sure there's been times where you've been stuck in that situation. Yeah. And it's, I just remind, I always remind myself, don't take it too seriously. You're talking about Paris Hilton and Beyonce, you know what I'm saying? Like I'm not on 60 Minutes, right? And believe me, I like that. In today's television world, television news is so divisive and it's so vitriolic. I'm very happy to talk about fluff. You know, people are like, oh, it's superficial. I'm like, you're damn right. Right. But at least no one's yelling at me. Right, right. And I did political talk radio for three or four years and it got, as soon as the Trump, not even his presidency, as soon as the campaign started. This is to say nothing about the president and a political fact. I'm just simply saying that the environment that he ushered in at the beginning of the campaign, let alone his presidency, it got to the point that no matter what I said, people were going to call and yell at me. And I'm like, look, some people may thrive on that. It's not for me. I'm very happy to go talk about some new reality show. Sex tape. I'd rather talk about that. Exactly. Exactly. You know, so, but as far as like the, when things go poor and when things fail on a live setting, I just remind myself like, you're on a live show about entertainment news. Have fun with it. You know, you know. And the nothing that we're doing is of any concern to anybody, really. You know, it's fun. It's a great job. And I'm sure people enjoy watching it, but this is not consequential. It's not any guess that you rub the wrong way. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. One of the spice go, not, not so much in a wrong way, like seriously, like she after the show was over, she gave me a hug and she was laughing about it. But I was busting her chops that she said her kids love spice world. I was like, no one likes spice world. This is not true. They like it because you're in it because mommy's in a movie. But that movie, they don't like that movie. She don't want to accept that. They would much rather watch Frozen than spice world. Don't try to pull that out. And I didn't really like it. Like the cameramen were laughing. That's hilarious. Well, shit, man. Thanks for letting us talk to you. Absolutely, man. Honestly, it was my pleasure. I'm glad we could finally work it out. Man, I would love to have you guys up at the studio. You guys are ever. Yeah, I do. Relative frequency. My friend, my family, my wife's family has, you know, she has extended family. That's in San Jose. So every once in a while. But Drew, now, Drew just doesn't travel for business. Oh, we don't even need you. He's such an overwhelmingly busy guy. I was, you know, I wanted to ask him. But he was, I was like, this guy is on every fucking show. And he's a doctor. I know. He still sees patients. He's still a fucking doctor. That's right. He still puts his stethoscope on and goes in. Oh, yes, your knee feels a little bit. That's crazy. I know. Crazy. I know. I got to step up my game. But yeah, next time you're up in the area, man, let us know. We'll have you come into our studio. Yeah. Have you back on the show. Always welcome, brother. I would love that. Excellent. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. 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