 If you let me know what you're talking about, you know, there was a philogist in there. So did you get in there and hanged your, that's hanging on to me? I don't know what they're doing, because it's like, what, it's not, it's just, you know, like, good, good, good, good. You probably were all right. So they could be like, who's, where can we go? So like, if you wanted to, they had to pay. Okay, so you would pay them a philogist, it would be ok. You need to know what you are talking about. We have to recolve, as a group, get a philogist on the table, they have to scour out. We pay for the issues, they would show the source, to the public. Okay, so we pay for them. We serve to solve them, they only pay for them. Yeah, we do, It seems to me like there should be a seat at which there are still others, and we would like to take a moment to take a moment. I don't want to talk more. Why? If you want to make me take a little bit of your words, a little bit. Why? I'll make you take a stand if there's any part I can say. It seems to me like there should be a seat at which there are still others. It's sort of like you're in the suitcase. You know, you buy your kids. You stop getting babies that far. I mean, you should just be getting back. I never do something that's complaining to you today. I'll stay here and do something. It seems to me like there should be a vibration. No, there's only something there. Yes. What do you mean? It's surprisingly close to calling the meeting kind of nobody here. Yes. I don't know what you're talking about. What do you mean, sir? What do you mean, sir? Well, it's going to be a lot. We're planning to do this. Thank you very much. We better be on the right. All right. Any, I mean. Are you sitting here? Helen, me, Margaret, Ann. Oh, for the, you know, earlier, is the city council? Council, and Tom, and the library. So just join me in the library. It's not the city council. But I don't know what you're saying. Good. Oh, you're good. Yes. We're going to sit here. And watch nobody. It's okay. Better to be prepared. That's what's going on. I always tell you. I always tend to use colds right here. There's no place else in town. We, uh, like it's been cold. People leave quick. We're getting big crowds. Like we're getting now. Oh, I'm thinking about it. I'm very important. You're up at the table. Get out of the way. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. You, too. I know. You. You know? Hey, baby? You know? When I spent all night? I still think of you. One, two, three, four, five, six, five, six, six percent. Down in the water. Yes. That's right. More than a piece. Oh, Christ. So, I know my staff, because they really need to know that I had them checked out. Yeah. Of course, I know. I'm sorry. I'll be right back. Okay. I'm okay. How about you? God is great! Okay. He's this person. He's this manera. Are you scared? Are you scared? Are you scared? Are you scared? I guess you get the one T. Hold your nose out of there. Okay? Yeah. Celebrity present? Okay Okay, thank you, so we're going to do it for you. So I'm going to go on to the floor, and I'll send it out to the other person too. I'm visiting for this kind of scenario camera. Hold on, Jay, we have to roll up. Or we could roll back. Jay, roll up an inch. It's a lineup. My sense of lining up. We're individuals. We're individuals. We don't have to be completely aligned. You see me doing calligraphy doodles? It just means I'm trying to, you know, look at myself. Hello there. Thank you, and how are you? I'm fine. They have another word, resourcefulness. That's what I'm talking about. What are we doing? Beth, I do have a carry on. You deserve this chair. Thank you. Is your ready now? Check your side and see. All right, thank you. So I'd like to call to order the South Burlington City Council joint meeting with the South Burlington Library Board of Trustees on Monday, June 11th. We'll start with the Pledge of Allegiance. Of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. The second item is instructions on exiting the building in case of emergency. In case we have an emergency this evening and we have to vacate the building, please go out these two doors and on the right and go out and assemble in the parking lot. If for some reason those doors are not accessible, please go back out into the lobby and out the main entrance around the corner and assemble in the parking lot. Tom Hubbard and I are responsible for carrying the building so everybody leave expeditions. Okay, item three agenda review. Are there any additions, deletions or changes in the order of business? It's a pretty short agenda, okay. Are there any comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda? We'll move on to item five which is our discussion of the reimagined Library Senior Center City Hall. We're going to begin with the presentation by Stephen Roy. Thank you everyone for gathering this evening. I'm Stephen Roy, Vice President of Architects. We are partner architects with Humphrey's Poly Architects of Denver for this project. Tonight we're going to walk you through kind of the status of where we are and how we've gotten here. Looks like that's on here. Is that going to be enough for you? So you can hold it down here if you don't have to. So I'll begin. For anybody that isn't aware of the site, the project site is located adjacent to the Allard Square project that's under construction now as well as the Rick Marcotte Central School driveway accessible from Market Street. So highlighted in orange is the footprint of the property. As we get a little bit closer to the site what's shown in this reddish brown color is the footprint of the building. It's taking up virtually the entire site that has been designated. Since the last time we've presented this project the city has done a lot of great work with the school to work out an agreement for usage of the site that helps us in several ways. It allows for priority program spaces to be on the first floor so it's allowed us to maximize the footprint to get all those areas that wanted to be on the first floor to stay there. It allows for parking and drop off for the city hall, the senior center and the library within the site. What's shown for the spaces isn't necessarily the final plan. There's still going to be refinement to that and improvements. This was an example that was used to work with the school and it allows for the possible connection of parking areas from Mary street into the new connection behind the library and city hall and senior center. It allows access to the Allard square garage and it also allows room for utilities to go through. There's a lot of good features that have happened in the two months that the school and city have been working together. It's kind of today within the entire schedule the beginning of the project as a whole to the ribbon cutting. We have the design team itself has been on hold while the city and school have worked on it. So there hasn't been substantial progress in some areas but in others there have been. So right now we're at that point where the city has now hired Engelberth Construction Incorporated as the construction manager for the project. This will allow their estimating and pre-construction team to begin working with us that the final steps of the schematic design are in progress right now and the pricing of the design will begin this week and occur over the next several weeks allowing for an estimate to be established by mid-July. As we move forward the plan is to continue design development right up until the point of bond vote. At that point we expect to finish construction documents from the bond vote into next March and then the construction team would begin with the bidding process and construction and all that moving forward leads to about a May 1st or so ribbon cutting of the project in 2020. So why a new building? There's an absence of an identifiable civic and cultural center in South Burlington. We're in an aging and less efficient city hall. There's opportunities. The library is currently in a temporary space which doesn't serve all of the program needs that the library has. The city lacks a senior center entirely. The inability to meet the public's demands for access to technology so there's a lot of new advances in technology that can be incorporated into a new building. There is a lack of space for community groups to meet so this new project offers a lot of spaces for those groups where they can meet at all times of the day or evening. There is insufficient space to accommodate the collections, the resources and the programming of the library or the seniors of several folks and there are deficient spaces to appropriately reinforce age centered learning so that one's a little bit more focused towards the library side but a lot of opportunities that could happen in a new building that we're not getting today. Time has come for a new vision. We're looking for this project to serve as the living room for the community, a place to gather, to create a cultural and social center, to realize the opportunity for shared synergy so there's multi-use spaces that can be used by several groups. Being in the same building we can take advantage of that. We wanted to be a catalyst for city center. We've started to see one building under construction now and there's going to be more but this will help develop city center. It will inspire learning opportunities for all generations and we think this is a very multi-generational project. It will allow the library to expand online and physical collections providing more benefit to residents of South Burlington and beyond and it will foster a sustainable resource for the community. This building is looked at as being a very highly sustainable building a high lead certification we can delve into more details in the future but looking at something that's very sustainable and energy efficient. Outreach to date we started this process pretty much back in February. We had several public workshops we've done a website survey we've met with library board of trustees the friends of the library local school students from orchard school and middle school as well local community groups we had a seniors lunch in this room the public art committee and city library and staff so we've really branched out and gotten a lot of feedback and comments from several people. This diagram in the corner is a collection of the words that we received from some of these meetings and the larger words are the ones that we heard the most and fireplace will show up in the design I'm sure I don't understand meeting but that one goes behind me. Meeting space so the public has helped to define the priorities of the project so we want to make sure that that is seen throughout. In early March we developed three different options and these are just summary views and how each was slightly different from the other some had a two story lobby space or auditorium or an urban plaza in the front some had a children's library on the second floor some had on the first each had similarities but each had differences as well from that public presentation we received over 450 comments from the public what we did was put all of those comments in a spreadsheet some were by building some were more general in terms and we started to prioritize them and rate them so one of the spreadsheet examples is on the board here and the green was a favorable comment towards that element a red comment was maybe a more negative comment towards that specific element so what we did was put all of those comments together and started to see where the patterns were so we identified the features that were the most desirable and the features that were less desirable some of the things that we recognized as being desired or were kind of the overwhelming input that we received was the exterior character of option B and I have a few quotes I won't necessarily read them but that particular one was love this one floor plan of option C that was seen as a good efficient use of space the auditorium on the first floor the library the children's library also on the first floor was a winner and one of the options did not have fiction and nonfiction together and it was clearly viewed that those should be together as an adult library on the same floor after those public comment periods and the three examples were provided we worked over the weekend to present a final option early the next week which we called option D and that was kind of a conglomeration of the elements that we saw were favorable each option we envisioned having sustainability incorporated using the inspiration from the people that have weighed in but it was a way to kind of set in stone the direction that the project wanted to take we're on option G today and that isn't a function of anything other than refining things and making them better so some of those things are reflecting the agreement with the school that has an effect on how we deal with the site has effect on how many things we can fit on the first floor really trying to just maximize what we can do there so we've looked at several design options we've increased the size of the senior center and the children's library to help accommodate needs that we weren't quite getting in with option D what are the stars other tables and chairs oh yes and I'll walk through that a little bit coming up there are stars too so I'm going to kind of summarize a few of the major areas within the floor plans questions feel free to ask them the city clerk in the welcome center it's approximately 2100 square feet and most of the numbers I'm going to give are net square footages which means we're not calculating the walls or spaces that doesn't count toilets things like that yep I don't have a pointer the big star is the city clerk area the little star is the welcome center so what is the welcome center the welcome center is conceptually the same as what we have here where there's basically greeters near the front door it allows for a great deal of the public to have their questions answered at that very first step within the building it could be getting a permit application or filling out a form some of the most common tasks that occur in city hall so we wanted that to be a convenient first floor location where somebody off the street can take care of that business quickly we have some lobby cafe seating in the front here kind of a glassy street front type of atmosphere an area that early voting could take place within that space as well so one of the things we heard was having a very convenient first floor city clerk and we've accommodated that can I yeah yes each of my succession slides will identify different areas okay so these were just a few examples of the type of character or the type of space that we're envisioning they haven't been designed to this level at this point but some of what's shown is a window area natural light public accessibility so the living room and the children's library are on the first floor and what we're calling the living room is basically the entrance to the library it's the place where we envision the fireplace a place to have a coffee take a book and just enjoy it watch people along the street this area may have newer books and large print books comfortable seating of various types walking in a little bit beyond the star I should say the star is within the center we're exploring having a skylight from above reach all the way down to the first floor in a stairwell that is open and inviting so patrons that want to go right up to the adult collection can either take a convenient elevator or the stairway to get there walking beyond that main entrance to the right would be the children's library how many square feet is the children's library the children's library itself I have some square footages listed later it's skipping my mind at the moment but I think I have it a little bit further on but what we're seeing is purple is 9,900 square feet that is correct the entire purple is the 9,900 square feet it includes the children's library which is basically all this side and children's staff this includes some staff areas for book circulation as well as the living room so it is all encompassing if I don't recall the square footage does that say tweens there yes what's the dark brown at the top senior center can you tell me between the staff room and the activity room what that room is intended for the one between is the children's library staff another staff space and there will be further this is kind of a simplified version there will be further definition of where the stacks are story time areas etc so as you speak and you said it's not fully above the star there seems to be a large room then a room to the right and then another room what are those three this area is being developed as a staff staff space the area to the right and underneath the stairway is a staff space dedicated to the children's library and then activity space to the right they are within the two blocks at the top here's a few images of what that living room space could potentially be we envision it kind of you know essentially a fireplace some seating that's around it some books that you can grab and read but also a space where somebody could take the podium and have a little gathering at the same time moving up on the plan these spaces that are highlighted in the stairs the largest star is an auditorium the smaller star to the right is a catering kitchen so we envision an auditorium and I'll go through a few of the options for the auditorium but the seating depends on the configuration but roughly 100 people it's a 2200 square foot auditorium that includes all the area that's blue and includes storage the catering kitchen is about 300 square feet the little star so another priority that we found was that this is a space that wants to be on the first floor we're looking at a raised platform not necessarily a high stage but a raised platform that's fairly low to the ground provides some grabby taps to whoever's presenting the room would have every time there's a type of seating that is comfortable tiered and can pull out at once without a lot of work will that be bleachers or will it have backs? it would be similar to what's shown here this is the Vermont public radio theater so these chairs move out they manually have to be tipped down but not brought out so it's a fairly quick setup and provides a comfortable seat where everybody can see well how does that area of the auditorium space size wise? it'll be much higher ceiling size wise not terribly different in area 100 people plus do it on the podium? 100 sitting in the theater seating so we envision movie matinees could happen here as part of the programming for the library or senior center speakers, presentations some of the options there could be also table seating within the space so it's a multifunction room these are three possible setups a little bit hard to see here but this would be for a performance setup where we have 117 seated retractable tiered seating throughout here this area is the stage in all situations it's the same layout this is an event table setup where we have 88 seats at round tables and the last one could be a city council setup where they're on the elevated platform with the seating pulled out so that would allow for 108 seated in the tiered seating with the raised platform calculated in and the space you have left what's the square footage on that one level for those tables in the middle I don't know right off hand is the anticipation that the council meeting room will be the auditorium I think, yeah, I think it is moving along the last to the northeast corner is what we have the senior center this varies slightly from an earlier version that we had it on the northwest corner this allowed us to get a little bit more glass, a little bit more natural daylight into the space slightly larger in size as well so we've tried to improve that setup we're about 2300 square feet net and that includes the activity room as well as another living room component within that as well as storage question in the first I don't know five letters of the alphabet there wasn't a senior center so how did the senior center come about? it was part of the comment period so there was a lot of questions of where is space for seniors to be the development of a senior center that was incorporated to respond to those comments how much square feet is the senior center? roughly 2300 square feet yes I have some square footages coming up as well so the whole thing is how many square feet is the whole picture I'll go through each floor square footage and then the total towards the end yes it allows for it can function as a living room it can also function as a smaller group gathering space yes it'll have a TV all the time the senior center living room is predicted to have a TV that's one of the things that there's been an interest in so my question has to do with how the senior space is going to be used it looks like it's set up for tables only but what about exercise or what have you so here's a quick set of pictures of either a small meal or perhaps a living room space and the catering kitchen so we envision flexible space for games, meals or exercise the catering kitchen does have a pass through so that when there's meals it's convenient there could be a coffee bar a television as well as a fireplace and these are four possible setups within that space so this one is looking at an exercise setup where everyone has I believe we have it 36 square feet so if you could put your arms out that's how much space you have that fits 30 people pretty comfortably number two over here is a bridge table setup so that's 48 people with still kind of plenty of room around them this is a says dining setup it could also be an activity setup where you have larger tables for certain activities this particular one has 64 people still lots of room for whatever accessories are part of the program and the last option here is a round table dining setup that holds 90 people the way it's shown yes what do we have to give up on item C which was the last time I was present to get the library space what space did we have to give up I see we have no outside patio anymore do you mean for the senior center or the senior center you said library senior center what did we give up to get it well what we've done now is really maximize the site so an option C D option B and option D both had a larger space between the back of the sidewalk and the front of the building and what we've done is utilize most of that for program space is there an entry connection between the library and the senior center or is it outside a connection between the library and the center directly there is not it hasn't been expressed as something that's wanted to be connected it's not a long way so that entrance is on the back wall where the parking is for the senior center they could enter from both sides of the building yes is there a storage area for all those tables yes there is and they will be we'll verify that they fit the stacks of tables and chairs Steve didn't we also alter the amount of space there wasn't the lobby isn't the lobby a little smaller now too yes that is true the part of part of refining to option G that we're in now was trying to reduce the amount of space that was underutilized in order to get the program spaces that we really wanted to maximize question another question about the senior space is that restricted only for seniors or might that be used by other groups at other times at this time it is program for seniors right so it is it will be program for seniors and there are some evenings that they might not be there and in which case the city the city or the library might be able to use it so the senior programming is from 8 in the morning until 4 30 in the afternoon and after that the space will be available through recreation for city activities and I believe that it will only I don't know that it will be fully programed so there may be some weekend times that it will also be available looking at the second floor yes what we have incorporated are outdoor terraces on other levels there is minimal on the first floor yes put in a word for the recreation parks department recreation parks department has no program space at all when when recreation parks wants to do a program for seniors they can hold a lunch here that's one thing they do every Wednesday or they can take them on a trip on a bus that's the only programming we're able to do for seniors and we have no program space for any other kinds of activities except for that one teensy little exercise room that's in the back of the offices and so this is a feature that is needed for the community just as much as the library is and I support 100% behind support for the library I have been for years and in the original task force design for this building it was to include the recommendations from city hall library and recreation parks and so this is not something that's new at all or something that's just added on like the whim it is another crucial essential service that we need to be offering in South Berlin and again I totally support and have been for years I totally support the library just want to put it in for you so moving up to the second floor in this plan is the three iterations the goal was to have all of the adult collections on a single floor so this floor plate is really dedicated to the library for all intents and purposes the roof terrace here is what we envision on the south side of the building as a place to read on a nice day that's outside it's not oversized but it's kind of a comfortable room for size we do have opportunity that we're exploring on the north side for another outdoor terrace it is the roof of the senior center essentially and we'll evaluate that for cost benefit the blue star indicates skylight over that stairway so letting in a lot of natural light kind of deep into the library space so there will be a lot of windows along the south wall a little bit on the east wall as well but this will bring it a little bit deeper into the space and orange stars are just highlighting that the fiction and nonfiction collections will be the primary primary footprint are there bathrooms on this floor? yes there will be within this block what might be helpful as you go through each one which is from D it would be nice to highlight those so it's hard for us to remember exactly what D looked like but I thought I remembered seeing some reading area along the glass wall at one point and these do lack the definition that D had previously so they're in progress so I don't know if it's gone or if it's there but just not none of the spaces have disappeared they're just being relocated to fit this particular plan elevator? yes elevator is right adjacent to the stair for the library there is also two meeting rooms on this floor that are meant for after hours civic access so those are spaces that during library hours can be used by library off hours they can be reserved through the library and used for group meetings or whoever is reserved there are also several meeting and study rooms there's various sizes and we'll further define those as we develop this particular plan from larger multi-purpose space to four-person study rooms circulation desk is on the first floor there will be a main circulation desk at the first floor so if you're taking something from the second floor you go down to the first floor to check it out the large star in the upper right, how large is that room the largest of the meeting rooms I was hoping that it would seat 60 60 audience style but whether it can be that large or not we're working on that what are the rooms non-star designated both in front and at the top this is thought to be the quiet study space which would be off of the roof terrace so this is an area with a lot of natural light we envision that as a nice place to be in it can be walled in a quiet place if you will have doors from a few different areas this is going to allow some natural light to further penetrate into here so this will be a stacked area mostly meeting rooms we are exploring this is the area where the auditorium roof is potentially higher so we may have a feature that uses that height in an interesting way a teen space up in this corner and some additional staff space by the stair one thing that's missing but we are not forgetting it is that we are putting the friends of the library bookshop and storage space on the second floor so the whole second floor is library no city space at this where was the tech lab where was the tech lab going to be it is the smaller smaller star on the top at the moment how much access will there be how many module units for people who want access to them so the program that I described was going to be able to see 20 at tables like this for an instruction kind of situation and then have space in there so that we can bring out new devices to try or computers to take apart or those kinds of things I'm imagining it's classroom style for 20 where are you looking to have the public computers the first floor the second floor they will be on the second floor and it will depend on they will fit into the stacks presumably staff space and they will also be a movable staff kiosk so that we can there is an event in the digital lab they can be closer to the digital lab or there is an event for the teens they can move their little desk closer to the teens so that but I imagine that the staff offices will be close to where the computer lab is because people need assistance so if there is no circulation desk on this floor if people patrons take books or materials or audiovisual or whatever and just go straight down the elevator can't they just walk out the front door without passing a CERC desk the CERC desk is really right front and center once you're in the lobby not in the lobby so they have to enter the first floor part of the library to do it that concerns me a little bit is that people could forget and walk out with materials from the second floor that would be an emergency exit I would think there in the corner the southwest corner this one is an emergency exit or a circulation for staff this one would be the primary stair that people use and this would be an emergency exit it will be a nice stair that people might want to use for going up to the city hall but isn't necessarily going to be a library stair so this there will be an entrance or an opening within this wall so anybody that's entering will have the opportunity to go in the elevator in the stair or immediately see that there's an emergency desk there there will also be self-checkout machines that will be here at the door as well so that will be another prompt to people that if they don't want to stop and have a person help them that they can use the self-checkout machines those will be on the ground floor so this is level three of the building it is the top floor we have this divided into four basic areas the dark blue areas being again those meeting spaces that could be used during the daytime or reserved for civic access in the evenings so we have one larger meeting space and two smaller in addition to the two that are on the second floor the city manager's offices are in this light blue area playing in zoning department is in the green and city staff and support spaces toilet rooms, things like that and so on what we have here with this white area throughout the center is where we would envision the skylight going through the floor plate to light the second floor and we are looking at options for small roof terraces in various places so the library doesn't have any access to the rooftop terraces they have second floor terraces and the potential for the one on the north as well summary of square footage the library staff would have access to those terraces and also we have combined staff space on that third floor on that last floor the yellow face this area library and city staff on the level three right now is that smaller space overall yes each floor continuously gets smaller as it goes up the other thing is that meeting room that's on the left hand side that's the large meeting room that will have access to a terrace and that will be publicly available after hours so that's another place where conceivably somebody could offer to reserve it for a meeting or an event or something since each level decreases up to three do you envision that in the future when we need additional space for something that we can build on the existing that actually use it there is potential to do that yeah we're going to evaluate the cost to prepare it for that so looking at square footage we can start to identify how the floors change so level one is the largest so we're 23,000 square feet level two has stepped down to 17,600 and level three down to 11,337 so the total building is just over 52,000 square feet gross we're always looking for little areas where we can shrink it down if possible but that's where things are today first floor libraries 98,86 second floor 15,700 making a total library of 25,644 but that does not include shared mechanical spaces or electrical rooms things like that that would count if it were a single building what is the first floor library area first floor library is 9,900 roughly probably about two thirds of that would be the children's space would you guess maybe you're going to answer this but how does the square footage for the planning and zoning city management and this clerk and wellness center compare to current square footages square footage wise not entirely sure off the top of my head but there are future employees planned within these square footages that aren't currently accommodated is that as much space as we have now or more it's about 8,000 sounds right I have to go back a little bit I haven't looked at it in a few months 6,700 so it's about 1,000 more square feet 3,000 plus the auditorium plus the city clerk so it's quite, it's a lot larger it says city hall includes clerk, planning and zoning, city management meeting rooms total with meeting rooms 9,100 for city hall I think we're about 8,000 here isn't level 3 all city hall it is these are net square footages so stairs, elevator bathrooms hallways, yeah the additional square footage to get up to the 11,000 are we giving us the net square footage time? yeah that's probably the gross so there's more space for a little bit of growth yeah and probably better planned or designed for laid out yeah maybe can hope yes do you have a picture of the outside? we are developing the outside currently I think there's some exciting possibilities we're not quite ready to share it yet though so it is based on the next slide which is still option B so it is similar in massing and character but with some changes so the next steps for us are to continue into design development that way we can answer these questions with more clarity we'll have a cost estimate by mid-July to get a sense of where things stand design development will be completed by voting day and construction documents throughout the winter into March where it would be bid and then construction would start so this is kind of a quick schedule when you say voting day I mean will there be an exterior view and the floor plans several weeks before September 21st which is first when you say voting day that's the early voting there will be a significant development of the design that's what we're counting voting day I was thinking November I was like a little tight the original floor plan that shows that one so there are two I guess red versus orange dots is the red rectangle the space that the city is obtaining from the school so this area that's defined in red is the school for parking drop off we're going to provide access to Allard Square through that possible connection to Mary Street we're going to run utilities through that space the school would like more of a separation than what's shown here so there will be pedestrian access and there will be some driveway connection to the school side of that line but yes that separation is this project and school where is the parking you're not the question is so what that addition of the school property did allow for that drop off space out front so and I know you aren't in charge of parking but I'm seeing different shavings in the school parking what is the plan for the parking for this building there will be a number of dedicated parking spaces that are using that area for the project where will they be well these spaces are and we have other plans also that show more than this but that within that space we have the opportunity to add parking for this project alone and that's for employees and patrons there will be Steve hold on a second the employee part of that has not been decided yet so the priority there will be for patrons we're working on other parking options there's also parking on both sides of the access road parallel parking you know with those little green dots those are trees there's 12 spots there so why is there now a new ingress to the Allard Square underground parking is that what that is on the east side of Allard Square yes it's not necessarily new but it's happening on the property itself that's temporary but the area but further up on the north western inch they already have an ingress egress right no, finger up to the left a little bit that's exterior that's surface parking this is the location to their garage only this area is their garage access this is from that drawing is it because of this existing parking that egress runs into a little island at the end of the parking island is that just not the final design it's not the final design so it just shows there's egress to that parking part of the challenge is the change in elevation that's required to get there but that will continue to be refined and the red square the top big red square where the current parking lots are for the school part of that I don't know which direction this side is but that's I think where they want to do buses but there's also some additional parking on the east side it's just not on this picture because the parking plan with the buses we need to work with the school to figure out and some parking people or parking engineers parking engineers will determine that I think our expectation is there'll be several more parking spaces in that what's now green space so the way this is supposed to work right now this is part of school parking lot the amount of parking that happens above that red line is going to equal what we've added down here so we're taking some of the school's space here and adding it onto that side of the line so this can be dedicated for the project and I apologize for pressing on this but the left hand side by Allard I mean Allard's going to need some parking other than the underground so that left hand oh that's theirs so are you saying that whole red spaces would be dedicated to libraries to the building library slash city hall senior center so and Kevin I know you're working on parking kids but I got to think that the employees of this building I don't know they're going to be 10 to 15 library employees I got to think they're 30 let's call it 10 it's growing we're going to need more employees they're going to be how many employees does city hall have on a normal 20 let's call it 20 we're undecided yet about the recreation staff where they will be so call it 30 or 40 let's call it 30 to 40 roughly that you need parking just for staff for getting any public using this space so there's that requirement the other part I mean when there are programs if there's something in the auditorium that's going to hold 100 people that's not from the everyday but there are going to be and some of many of those are going to be during the evening I guess the high school parking lot gets open unless they have a program but many of the times between the seniors between the people using city hall between the youth program the youth baby programs they're going to need more spaces than what's in that red and more spaces than along the street I don't know how many people want to park on the street and I'm just concerned we're working on an arrangement it has not been we're working on an alternative parking arrangement primarily for staff and for patrons that will be very convenient we're not ready to announce it yet all I can say to you is that we have very good high confidence that we're going to be able to work that out and it's going to be readily available so we hear and understand the concern we take it very seriously that parking has to be there we have a very good plan to address that on the medium to the short to medium range longer term there'll be additional parking in city center that will take advantage of as well for the short medium term I think we have a solution to that but we don't have the lease in place I understand will that plan be in place so that when I as a voter look at this building and say I'd like the building, you give me the price for the building that's what I'd like and there's a parking as well it's not after the fact that the parking comes along it's a package we will be ready to announce that by the end of summer well before anybody votes I'm sorry that was the key Megan had a comment I think this is without any knowledge of the parking engineering I'm just saying as a patron and someone who's been to Fletcher Free you park where you can and so as or use public transit too you think about not everyone's going to be clamoring for parking I just want you to know that it's not going to be 100 people wanting 100 spots that's all I'm saying I'm not saying that the same thing with the retail store you're not going to have enough parking for Christmas at the university mall you're going to park way across but most times you want convenient parking Fletcher Free library was built downtown now we're building in this new area sounds like Kevin is working on that right and I don't know what he's working on but think of the Flynn there are ways that cities accommodate parking that aren't the same as what perhaps some of us have a mind and I think that it does work for Burlington and you know people say you just need a little bit more time to find a spot but you do find a spot right so it's just a matter of making sure that those who have access requirements have that access but a lot of people like myself I don't mind walking five blocks I don't you know so there's a bad space we're not down I think Kevin's working on that I guess my concern about that would be that I think the highest percentage of our patrons are either parents with small children or seniors and those two groups it's harder for them to take the bus or park a long ways away and maneuver their way in because the parking garage that does exist and again I don't know anything that's in the works here but it's not too far away you know just across from the DMV and you're by Experiencing Noble it's not far from here but we don't have the feel yet of a city center downtown like Burlington does I mean it's an accepted thing if you go downtown to Burlington and you're going to event you know the parking is catch is catch can and you know that going in in South Burlington we haven't had that experience for our general public like if you want to go somewhere oh gosh I can't find parking at the U-Mall or oh gosh I can't find parking well maybe sometimes a trader chose but you know our population is not as accustomed to that to that piece I personally don't mind it but I would say you know we have a big our population is used to driving everywhere because our mass transit also isn't as available so you know we need to be thoughtful about those spaces a lot of South Burlingtonians do go to Burlington so I just want to you know that out there too the transit parking around there the balloon mall you know the SD mall you have a ton of parking in very near proximity to that site and then there will be more too as time goes on does a new entrance to the school go over this piece of land or is it next to the piece of land you're putting a new entrance into where you're driving is this road will extend to enter over there on the property so that again there's going to be another road no this shared road area here will extend to access the school property just so you know I'm more cold by the way why are you sitting back there I came in five minutes late anyway when we started this whole process the first thing that came up was the parking and what was added as a result of what was worked out with the school board it by and large accommodates handicap and parents with you know with kids and strollers I guess in addition to what you're seeing in that rectangle that represents what the school board has worked out with the city parking on the street the entrance coming in from market street and there's going to be parking on the street from the library as well so there are a decent number of parking spots for the people who need it and can't walk a great distance in addition you spoke about an area where there could be a drop off and that also accommodates that issue do you think we should be careful about assuming that library patrons will use other retail spaces to park those parking lots weren't built for that purpose so we should have good planning around that and I don't think that's what you're planning Kevin but I just want to be careful not to assume that we could just use someone else's parking lot any other slide pardon me yes the city center process has been far more transparent and inclusive of community input than some other processes along the way since and that's been a delight to watch my concern is that as we move into the next phase will it be as transparent when the library moved to the mall it's not very transparent and it just sort of happened at least that's the perception of some of the public and my concern is to be sure that while you said earlier on there was consultation with city staff and library staff as you flesh out those spaces I have great faith in Jennifer but Jennifer also has expertise among her staff can we be assured that those people are going to be engaged part of the process so we continue to have that kind of transparency yes absolutely and we have regular meetings with the core team we're setting up meetings as we speak with city staff and others now to keep the process moving forward I believe we're going to be updating city council on a regular basis as well as all the groups involved updating the city's website with information as it becomes available I mean really we're it's a marketing campaign up to bond vote and that's when people need to know the information so yes it will be very public it will help a lot we all know how we're going to vote but there are all those people out there who are interested with the library the library board's meetings are open to the public but that doesn't address the staff issue so I would like to to give you confidence that as different stages of the project happen I take them quickly back to staff so this morning we had a meeting a design meeting with the Colorado architects as well and this afternoon I was able to pull aside three of the full time staff just to say here's what we talked about today what do you think about this and even in that short time they came up with three things that I had missed when I was looking at the picture so that's certainly telling as far as their expertise and what they're looking for and so then I automatically just send those on to the architects and they've been very the library's needs and vision so any other thoughts or comments from, okay thank you for your questions yes I'm John Barrow, city resident it sounds like there's a lot of loose ends here and a lot of process to go through so you may want to consider having the vote on this in March instead of November there is adequate time to have it in November as early as we started the process we have the design has kind of been on hold for about two months but we see plenty of opportunity to further develop the design in time for November yes, yeah I know that there has been some negotiation in order to obtain this land with the school are you able to explain to us at this point in time what's going to happen with this building relative to the school's access to it as I read in the paper or do they get all of it or what well that's an MOU that we we have a signed MOU which is a memorandum of understanding that then requires getting real specific about the transfer of this building to the school it includes giving them time to let us know if in fact they want it if the bond passes and we build a new city hall it gives them what 180 days to consider that they can lease it for ten dollars a year or one dollar a year for three years and then renew that they could purchase it at some point for ten bucks but my understanding is since we don't have room in the new city center for the time being if that transpires and they want to utilize this building and I think they do we would carve out a section for parks and rec until some day they get a building and the fire department stays there too they're not going to learn rebuilding that I guess that clarifies a bit for me that the entire building wasn't to be negotiated necessarily over to the school is that correct this building well I think that's an option that we gave them and they have to want to do that and if they don't then I guess the city can lease it or sell portions of it or use it for rec or use it for rec blow out lots of walls and have park gymnasium I don't know so that wasn't so you said when did you say the dollar amount would be in place mid-July does that include the interior design at that point? the full cost you'll have to go to target for that Mark Steed as you work on the interior spaces piece of it and Alana just because I'm on the public art committee as well so probably would need to have a good sense of if we are thinking of things that might impact what you were doing to just be very aware of your time scale so we don't do we don't say can we have this and you say sorry well it's done are there other thoughts, concerns positive feedback that the library board has about this plan today? I do want to thank you for working so diligently with the school board to make this work we think this is a great option or we thought was an optimal option to get that extra land so we appreciate all of that effort and we are excited we've been engaged so this is the first time you've seen a formal presentation but we've had several and we're grateful to the architects for that Mark Cole is on the design committee with Jennifer so they've been very engaged in that process and yeah so we're working we're looking ahead we're looking forward because the advocacy committee is very busy fundraising is active getting ready so we're excited but any other thoughts? Hi my name is Lee Freeman I'm a junior member I would like to personally I'm not speaking on behalf of the board but I'd like to say personally that I lament the loss of square footage to the senior center is a senior center although senior center isn't necessarily open to all members of the public given that I'd like to say that I feel personally that there should be communicating door interior communicating door there should be pardon I'm sorry more communication communicating door means to go from one without going outside there is a door you can go through the hallway direct connection thank you Megan you want for Jennifer the tween space just seems to be kind of an afterthought I don't know if that's just my very poor perception so I'd love to have a librarian talk to me about that tween space so what we've asked is to program to create a tween space for 12 to 15 youth probably we wouldn't have more than that at one time we wanted to be in a space that downstairs area really hasn't been developed very much but this morning I said you know I think the tweens might like being in the front window especially if we have some reading nooks that are right there against the window and so lo and behold today this afternoon now it's in the window so very responsive so I don't think it's just not it's just not real yet but I think that that's how it got there today okay but that's what we're aiming for is 12 to 15 probably a lot of comfortable chairs is what they asked for maybe a study area too but a lot of what they were saying they wanted lounge furniture more than table furniture and so I don't know for sure if that's going to be where it is later what's the age range for tweens for library tweens so middle schoolers middle school is who we were interviewing about this space and one of the previous designs we were able to have the tweens near the stairs on the first floor so still part of children's but near the stairs and on the second floor teens were near the stairs that may or may not be able to happen in this arrangement because the tweens said we like to hang out with our friends but we want to read adult books you know or we might want to read teen books but we may not want to hang out with the teens so depending on how the design continues that gave them that easy access to each other it's one of the reasons why on the second floor the teens are right near the stairs okay so okay I'm glad to hear the input I think that and I'm not a senior either and I've never been to a senior event so I'm just speaking from middle-aged perspective that the senior center has a very nice you know kind of place sense to it and I'm not sure I see that with the tweens so much and I understand not wanting to be necessarily close to the high schoolers the true hardcore teens but I think there's maybe some versatility that's lost I don't know some kind of space that could I'm lamenting a teen center myself mm-hmm and I know that recreation parks is would be joyfully you know seeing any plan for a teen center and it might not be in a library but I just if there's any way to well the teen space yeah did you see it upstairs I did see upstairs and that looks more like a place and it's nice that it's next to the tech center yeah well the tweens are you know we can we'll see what happens with it but I think when you're comparing between space to the seniors yeah that for me I would compare the children space to the seniors okay because the children space needs to have its personality and it has to be its own place as the senior center is and then within that we have just have to have a space that is a particular that calls to them mm-hmm so I don't know that I would compare the tweens to the seniors for me when I'm designing it mm-hmm because the tweens we have been designing it thinking of them as children mm-hmm they might think that they're grown you know I'm sure that's true but that's kind of the way I would look at it is we definitely want a definitive children space and then within that one of the things that they said when we interviewed them is yes I don't know what we'll be able to do with it but yes we want a theme mm-hmm you know we want Harry Potter we were all surprised we thought Harry Potter's passé but they're like no we want Harry we want dragons so those things will happen more as a design element than a space element I think so that'll help and we'll be looking for tween input as we get that far so if you have tweens that would like to yeah so happy to drop them off in that whole space the tweens and the teams are something that we couldn't have you know over the library we had the teams but it wasn't our library and I think the board has always said that we need to be multiple you know we can't go from these toddlers to the seniors we need that in between and I think you know what Jennifer's saying where it's going to grow they've never been part of us we want them part of us so we just have to yeah because certainly in the last place the children's room was pretty young I mean Meg tried to create those little nooks and the beanbag areas and we did sometimes see the 10 to 14's in there but lots of times the 10 to 14's were out in the floor which of course they're welcome anywhere it's not that they can't be in other places in the library maybe the tweens I've had in my house in my up and coming tween they wouldn't be in a little children's area so I just it's just my kind of experience but I'm just one family no yeah but it's important to have that especially as we move into you know this is the general concept the next thing is really going to create the space so that's very helpful input to have for the design phase yeah because even thinking having like a game you know like a chess table or something and we actually have talked about having the storage having storage shelves for all the board games that we have right near the tween space right now we have it kind of in the back of the children's room because that's the only place we could fit it so we're on track with that yeah because that was one of the things that they said too in our meetings as did the elementary school students is that we want board games so they said games so I'm like oh what video games would you want no we want to play board games we want to play battleship so we have lots of copies of battleship now we're ready to have a summer competition so yeah we're thinking that too if you have a chess playing tween we should talk I'm now in between the tweens I'm in between the tweens I am you're straddling I am between 7 and 17 so just a few more years I'll be there but yeah I've seen fantastic teen centers and I know a library can't be everything to all people but when you talk about the board games that's exactly what this teen center offered and I think that they'd want to use some kind of maker space or the tech center I can't see the tweens in there too but that's upstairs so it's just thinking how can we create a space for that 10 to 17 and I know 10 is young compared to 17 so it's just well one of the things you're doing and why they're kind of put down as a block at the bottom is that the variations they were up near the story time area they said no no they can't be near the story time area they need that separation so the juvenile you know close by but they're because that's just not who they are exactly so and they have the run of the library too that's the thing this is not a prison it's just an area that is available to them if they want it and then of course they'll go wherever they want to go depending on what happens on the second floor if it happens around that 4 foot rise we were looking at some pictures today of well could this work, could that work that I we might not see anybody over the age of 10 to 17 else in the library if this kind of unique design feature fits in that space and we choose to do that so who knows any other comments or questions how about a new peanut gallery well good well I want to yes go ahead in some of your earlier designs I just wanted to know one of my favorite elements was your bump out staircase on that side of the building it's gone it's gone was it too expensive just curious the reason we were looking at that you know it made for a lot of lobby and a lot of distance to get there trying to be a little more efficient that's true can I ask Jennifer something real quick there's that word cloud it's a big fireplace word and I know there was some concern that the lobby space with the fireplace might be shrinking it's hard for me to tell from this picture what that space feels like is it really like the fireplace feel we were looking for so maybe you could help me imagine what's the size of that space it's probably in the range of 25 feet wide and if you it depends on how far you want to take it up but if you imagine a two car garage would be this space there we did discuss making a few adjustments today to that trying to get more grander well at least to make sure it's what it's intended to be and where would the fireplace go? probably on this wall and how big would it be and how much space would it take up little TV I'm just concerned if the room is shrunken how much of it now does the fireplace take up because we only use it a few months a year we'll get into those details the entrance itself the main entrance to that building looks to me like a very standard sized entrance at this point the actual doors spot one of the things that's true we have that's gotten much smaller yes it's probably in reality a little bit bigger than what's shown there we have looked at two sets of doors and a little bit wider entrance there was a design where you walked in the door and you could see up to another story so that might be what you're thinking maybe just a desire to keep the hearts of the fireplace in mind as you design out the more details certainly any other comments or thoughts? well thank you I appreciate I'm pleased that you're so engaged and are working on really the design elements down to where the cubbies are going to be no I think that's really important because it's hard for I think all of us to look at that purple space and really kind of imagine what it's going to look like and feel like so thank you for being so receptive I think that will really help with the final design and if you're enthusiastic about the design then we can transmit that to the public I hope and so we're there to help you with that okay so emotion to adjourn all in favor? okay thank you very much see you next time