 The World's Honored Watch is Lawn Jean. Lawn Jean watches have won ten World's Fair Grand Prizes, twenty-eight gold medals and more, honors for accuracy than any other timepiece. Lawn Jean, the world's most honored watch, is made and guaranteed by the Lawn Jean Wittenall Watch Company. It's time for the Lawn Jean Chronoscope, a television journal of the important issues of the hour, brought to you every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. A presentation of the Lawn Jean Wittenall Watch Company, maker of Lawn Jean, the world's most honored watch, and Wittenall, distinguished companion to the world-honored Lawn Jean. Good evening, this is Frank Knight. May I introduce our co-editors for this edition of the Lawn Jean Chronoscope. Mr. Victor Rizel, labor columnist for the New York Daily Mirror, and Mr. William Bradford Huey, editor of the American Mercury. Our distinguished guest for this evening is Mr. Arthur Garfield Hayes, famed constitutional lawyer and general counsel for the Civil Liberties Union. The opinions expressed are necessarily those of the speakers. Mr. Hayes, our Chronoscope audience knows you, sir, as a long-time crusader for human freedom, and I'm sure they'll be very much interested in your views tonight. Now, sir, we had Senator McCarthy on this show a few days ago, and our audience had his views. Now, what is your general appraisal of Senator McCarthy and his work, sir? I think he's the most dangerous man in the United States. I think Senator McCarthy is more dangerous to freedom in the United States than all the communists we have in this country. Well, Mr. Hayes, do you think that because he's attacking communism, and I disagree with the senator? Do you think that he's dangerous because he's attacking communism? No, I think he's dangerous, but because without sufficient evidence, he's smearing a lot of respected and highly decent people. Well, do you think, Mr. Hayes, that there are communists in the State Department having infiltrated our government? I don't think for a moment they've begun to infiltrate the government. I think there may be a few communists in the State Department who don't do anything that is much harm as a suspicion that's stirred up against the whole State Department by an ally like McCarthy and his ill and his followers. Well, what specific harm do you think Senator McCarthy has done? Well, I think when you smear men like Owen Lattimore and Phillip Jessup, Jessup who's done a great job for the United Nations, and when you throw suspicion on men who've been in government service for years and make people doubt their own State Department, you do a great deal of harm because you stir up hate and suspicion and fear all over the United States. I think the most dangerous thing the communists can do in the United States is stir up hate, suspicion and fear. And I think anybody who aids them to do it is doing as bad a job as they are. Do you think that there is any ground for suspicion and fear among the people of the United States, sir? No reasonable ground, and I think that no man should be deprived of his reputation as standing without a fair trial and a judgment according to Anglo-Saxon methods, and not by the ravines of McCarthy even though he has congressional immunity. But don't you think that the American people, sir, have some reason to suspect their State Department that harbors a hiss or that harbors people that are known to be subversive and to be agents of foreign powers? I don't think American people have any sound reason to suspect our State Department at present. Well, Mr. Hayes, sound reason, we're going to separate this from Senator McCarthy immediately. We agree. If you want to separate sound reason from Senator McCarthy, you and I are on the same side. All right, well taken. We agree and we dismiss him. Now, Owen Lattimore, don't you think he's a danger as a friend of Matsudon, the commander of the army that's fighting our own United Nations? For 15 years, Owen Lattimore has been Matsudon's friend. Now, do you think that doesn't constitute a danger to the thinking of our State Department? No, I don't because I've seen nothing or heard of nothing that Owen Lattimore has done. That seems to me to suggest for a moment that he isn't a loyal American. Well, now, let's come, let's do this, sir. Personalities are very interesting, but let's come to McCarthy's methods, which are the things that you are most opposed. Now, you're at your position that his methods have not been justified. It is. Now, a great many Americans, however, believe that the one reality of our time is the Soviet power and that that Soviet power is aided in the United States by people who are willing to lend their aid to that Soviet power. Soviet power in Russia is one thing. Soviet power in the United States, I don't think exists. But you do exist that there are, you do admit that there are Americans who want to make Russia more powerful and that there have been such Americans inside our own government. Yes, but very few in number. Mr. Hayes. And exercising in my judgment, no influence. Mr. Hayes, don't you think that 500,000 Americans led by Stalinists, labor leaders, they're a menace, especially when in the heart of our defense industry. When do you get 500,000 Stalinists? The 500,000 Americans are members of trade unions led in the heart of our defense industry by communist labor leaders. Don't you think that constitutes a menace of civil liberties? I don't, because I think it'll work itself out the same as it has in the CIO. At one time, the communists are very strong in the CIO. Then the communists began playing politics instead of attending the labor union duties and they were thrown out of practically all the CIO unions. Every time I read of a strike, I don't attribute it to communists. They don't deserve the credit. No, no, we're going to dismiss that one, too. We're not going to... All right, I'm glad you agreed with me. No, don't you think that though they organized conspiracy of American Stalinism with 43,000 fanatics represents a threat to American civil liberties? No, I don't. I think all those people are under surveillance by the FBI. I think they might need fifth columnists in case of war. I don't think their potential spies because spies aren't used to or under suspicion and I trust the FBI and I trust the laws. If what you're trying to tell me is that we have a right to violate laws of decency as well as laws in the statue books in order to get communists, what you're really saying is that a totalitarian government over here would be safer than a democratic government and I don't believe it. Let me say Mr. Hayes, I'm for decency. I wanted to make that clear. Well, I thought you were. That's why I thought your argument wasn't sound. Well, I'm delighted that both you gentlemen are for decency but let's come back to the State Department and don't you think, sir, that Senator McCarthy's methods might be justified and that the House on American Activities Committees methods might be justified because of a failure on the department on a part of the Department of Justice. After all, the FBI knew of the existence of Alger Hiss for four or five years before we were prosecuted. Well, I'll grant you Hiss but for heaven's sake, you're not going to found all your policy on the fact that one man was found guilty of having done something improper in 1938 and lied about it in 1948. Don't you think? Certainly you're not going to take that position. Mr. Hayes, don't you think that the State Department, having worked us into this holocaust in the East, has failed because of the policies which I think pro-communist policies or the pro-Lambor, Well, I don't have the State Department to send to the holocaust in the East. What did, Mr. Hayes? The invasion of the North Korea of the communists. Who was responsible for that? I think the communists were responsible. And behind them? Russia, of course. And therefore you don't think that the same extension of the same conspiracy in the United States represents a threat to us? Yes, but I don't see the same conspiracy in the United States. I'm not afraid of the communists in the United States. There never has been a more cute political movement in the United States than that of communism. After 25 years, they can't get enough votes to keep their name in the ballot. This idea of finding a communist owner under the bed seems to me all nonsense. And the result of the whole thing is that Americans now are so timid about expressing themselves that we've practically given up democratic methods and free speech. Nobody in this country dares to say anything that might suggest to anybody that he's an appeaser or a pro-Russian or anything else. The result is that we act as one and even on controversial subjects. We don't find any debate in public light. And don't dare. As a liberal, sir, and a believer in human freedom, you deplore the fact that Americans do not to hell that or utilize that liberty as they once did. Well, surely as soon as you get to a position where you have a timid public as you have today, that is the end of free speech. It's just as serious as for Congress to pass laws. I think we're a whole lot safer and healthier if every man says exactly what he believes. Now, to relate your views to the political issues of 1952, sir, where do you stand? Are you going to... Do you expect to support Truman in 1952? I do unless Eisenhower's nominated. If Eisenhower's nominated, I'd probably support him. Why? Because as President of Columbia, I heard Eisenhower speak on democracy and he thrilled me. And I think his views are what I regard as democratic views. Would you make those specifics, sir? We've been trying to get some of those views from him and he has refused. Well, I think if you read the past prints and read his speeches, you'll find that he's opposed to the President's hysteria. He's opposed to things that make us all fearful of communists. He believes in people audaciously expressing themselves. And he believes that the atmosphere of today is very bad. Do you think the general is a liberal or conservative by your stand as Mr. Hayes? That's hard to tell. I don't use terms liberal or conservative. Would you vote for him on the Republican ticket, sir? Yes. The party of McCarthy? Well, I regard as a party of Eisenhower. All right. I would so regard. How do you regard Senator Taps? He's a man who is supposed to have considerable respect for the law. And as a lawyer yourself, I should think that would attract you to Senator Taps. I have respect for Senator Taps as a man. I think he's able and honest. And I like the way he handled himself in general. But Senator Taps to me is more or less of a metal machine. And I haven't the same liking or admiration for him personally that I would have for either Eisenhower or Truman. Now, I'm sure that our audience would like to hear one last expression from you, sir. As a fighter for human liberty for many, many years in this country, are you hopeful about the prospects for liberalism as you defined it in America in 1952? Yes, I am because I've seen the same as there exists. I saw it exist in the 20s when the socialists were the target. The party to the left is always the target. Someday we'll have a party more radical than the communists and then the communists will be respectable. I think this idea of becoming fearful because of names is all absurd. I have the same hope that we'll reach a sane atmosphere in the future as it turned out after the 1920s. But I'm sure that our audience very much appreciates these views, sir, and thank you for being with us, sir. The editorial board for this edition of the Laun Jean Chronoscope was Mr. Victor Rizel and Mr. William Bradford Huey. Our distinguished guest was Mr. Arthur Garfield Hayes, a famed constitutional lawyer and general counsel for the Civil Liberties Union. You know, one gets nowhere either in love or in business by being subtle. Just ask for what you want simply and directly. Isn't that good advice? Now, if you're one of the thousands who's always wanted a Laun Jean watch, don't beat around the bush. Just ask for it. Just say, I would love to get the Laun Jean watch. Christmas, you know, is just around the corner. And just around the corner, too, is a Laun Jean with no jeweler agency with many wonderful Laun Jean Christmas gift watches, product of 85 years of fine watchmaking experience, each individually worthy of the great honors which Laun Jean watches have won, 10 World's Fair grand prizes, 28 gold medals, and highest honors for accuracy from the leading government observatories. The watch of first choice in fields of precise timing, in sports, aviation, in exploration, and science. 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