 What kind of world do I want to live in? I think about this question a lot. For our generation and for specifically my group of people, which is refugees, the circumstances might dismantle any vision of the future that we have. You're trying to rebuild, you're trying to make a future for yourself and then the climate-related disaster comes and you start again. It's not about how it's affecting you now, it's about how it's affecting you your entire life. The first step to understand is that we're all a part of it. None of us are going to be left out by the crisis. We're at a stage where if we don't act now, really there won't be very much left. There are generations that will never see certain things that we grew up seeing in real life. We have to start treating this like the emergency it is to achieve the 17 sustainable development goals. We have to go from an intention to a serious commitment. Business leaders really need to rethink how they conduct their business and invest in creating systems that are climate-friendly. I would like to see accountability. Structures being put in place where countries aren't just asked to do something but they're kept accountable to the decisions that they make. There has to be that strong collaboration between government, cooperation between youth activists to drive change forward. The world I would want to live in is a world where imagining the future is not a privilege. I want to live in a world where people do not give up on hope. Hope that a positive change is possible. The fact that you're listening today means that you are willing to make a change. Everyone, my name is Tom Perriello. I'm the Executive Director of the Open Society Foundation for the US and I'm extremely excited to be with this amazing set of women leaders on the issues of trade, social justice and movement of people. The roots of trade policy did not come out of a moment of idealism or hypothetical academic discussion. It came out of the carnage of world wars and of great depression. And from that there was a belief that trade could be not just a mechanism for somehow maximizing the volume of trade, but actually was an important component of building kind of social cohesion and raising of the floor of conditions that would prevent that kind of human carnage we've seen in the past. We're now coming out of and facing a series of extremely serious challenges. We have a global pandemic. We are well into a decade of the worst refugee crisis since we began recording numbers, probably in human history, which could be exacerbated by some recent conflicts that continue to grow. And we have a climate crisis whose impacts are being felt in many of the most vulnerable parts of the world. We've also seen an inspiring movement for liberation, for justice, for equality, including the movement for black lives in the United States, indigenous movements around the world, Me Too movements and others. We see right now a moment not unlike that after World War II in which we're asking the question, what is it we want to accomplish with our trade policy? How is it that we want to affect lives? Is it the end in itself or is it a means? And to the extent it is, has it been actually reducing inequality with an eye towards issues of race, gender, and ethnicity? Or where has it been actually part of exacerbating that problem? Where is this something that's driving geographical inequalities that create and undermine social cohesion in countries? We see a global economy whose fragility has been shown not just to come from barriers to trade, like tariffs and non-trade barriers, but from issues of failed states, of issues of exclusion from the economy for entire categories of the population. And we have an amazing set of three leaders to talk to us about these challenges and these opportunities. I'm excited to be joined by Angelica Romero, the general director of multilateral economic fares for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Chile. We have Pamela Koch Hamilton, the executive director of the International Trade Center, and Penelope Nas, the president for International Public Affairs and Sustainability at UPS. And we are excited to dive into this topic, but before we do, I'd like to invite all of you to click on the link in the chat to answer a quick poll question on Slido to see where our audience stands on the question should trade policy attempt to address inequalities between different social groups? One for yes, two for no, or three for I'm unsure. Should trade policy attempt to address inequalities between different social groups? One yes, two no, three I'm unsure. What I'd like to do now is open it up to this group of global leaders to give us some thoughts on this range of topics, including what they face in either their institutions as a mission or their countries. And I'll start with you Angelica. Chile has certainly had a dynamic few years, the last few years, and your government has been a very strong advocate for incorporating a gender perspective into trade policy. Can you elaborate a little bit on both Chile's experience of this in their own country, but also in trade policy on the issues of gender equality? Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you very much, Thomas. Good evening to everyone. To you, to Pamela, Benia, and our session with us. It is really a pleasure to be with you in this panel tonight and won't be helpful. So I want to give the greetings from our Vice Minister of Trade, Mr. Roderiboyanis. And it really represents a great opportunity to share with you and also with the audience, you know, Chile's ambitious and forward looking, you know, gender and trade agenda. Over the past year, Chile has been working to ensure that the benefits of trade are more widely shared, as well as promoting a more resilient, sustainable, inclusive global trade. And this is, you know, very, very important and more important than ever because of all the social and economic challenges that the pandemic has brought globally and this proportionate impact it has had on women and also on girls. The COVID-19 crisis has deepened inequality of every kind. And for example, in Chile, in our country, the extreme poverty increased almost, you know, 5% in households headed by women during the pandemic. And today we have an opportunity to assess what we have been achieved so far and introduce, you know, some new initiatives that promote gender equality in trade. This policy action was and still is needed to push forward those innovative policies that are gender sensitive and that facilitate women's economic empowerment. So in the case of Chile, we have been, you know, working or mainstreaming a gender perspective in our trade policies by implementing gender and trade chapter in several free trade agreements. We included our first chapter on gender and trade with Uruguay in 2016, you know. And after that, Canada, followed by Argentina, Brazil and Ecuador. And as Pamela is aware, a recent ITC studies showed, you know, that FDA with gender provision are building blocks for larger and more integrated markets and they open opportunities in global value chain. And this is very, very important for another concrete action that we took, you know, is together with Canada and New Zealand, last year we signed the Global Trade and Gender Arrangement that it is called GITACA also. And it's part of the inclusive trade action group that we have with these countries. The arrangement promotes mutually supportive trade and gender policies and represents a commitment to unlock new opportunities to increase women's participation in trade as part of the broader export to improve this gender equality. And it is also important to mention that this GITACA, you know, it is open and we can, new members could join to this arrangement. Also in 2019, you know, during Chile's host here for APEC, the La Serena Roadmap for Women and Inclusive Growth was endorsed and the purpose of these documents is to look, you know, for greater integration and the empowerment of women in the Asia Pacific by 2030. Today, you know, we have the policy partnership on women and the economic group that has led the implementation of this roadmap, making successful progress in streaming the gender approach. 16 groups have developed, you know, this process of implementing more than 100 initiatives that respond to the priorities identified in the roadmap. And in 2020, last year, you know, we also launched the roadmap for the autonomy and economic empowerment of women in the Pacific Alliance. This is, you know, Chile as a coordinator of the Gender Technical Group in the Pacific Alliance is leading, you know, the implementation of this roadmap and around 30 projects that we proposed by different working groups within the Pacific Alliance are implementing during this year and also next year. And we have been also very engaged in the discussion, you know, in the WTO, particularly the informal working group on trade agenda that it is building on the Buenos Aires Declaration for Women Empowerment in 2016, 2017, sorry. And also the OECD that has proposed, you know, an analytical framework to evaluate the effects of trade policies on women. And this is very important because we need to, we need to input this data in order to know the impacts that we are having, you know, in the formulation of gender-sensitive public policies. So Chile has been very, very actively, you know, alongside with the OECD, with the WTO, with APEC Pacific Alliance and in other forests. And we think, you know, that these are very concrete action in order to promote, to advance in the fulfillment of women's full participation in trade. And we will continue to work on that path, you know, since we know that this is the only way to, you know, really find this truly inclusive trade system. And of course we are confident that we will get there. And of course this kind of discussion is very, very useful to move things toward that achievement. Thank you so much for that. And when I come back, I'd really love for you to speak a little bit more about looking at questions of quality among women where you're looking at issues of class and education level and race and ethnicity and how we make sure that that's being addressed also within this context as you see it in Chile when I come back to you. So I just wanted to tee that up. Pamela, I know ITC has been working on measuring progress in trade and gender policies. We'd love to hear from you just an overview of what works and what doesn't, and what are some of the key factors that really make sure trade policy is inclusive. Thank you so much, Thomas, and hi to Angelica and to Penny, great seeing you guys. Thanks for the opportunity to share on this really critical topic of making trade policies truly inclusive from a gender perspective. The International Finance Corporation estimates that one in three businesses are owned by women. Yet they have on average lower sales and assets and often operate in saturated low-profit sectors and markets. Additionally, 70% of women-owned SMEs in developing countries are underserved or not served by financial institutions. We're all feeling the brunt of COVID in multiple ways, but if there's one group which has been especially hard hit, it is women. We're seeing higher employment losses for women globally, 5% for women compared to 3.9 for men, according to the ILO. And women-owned businesses across multiple countries are also experiencing higher closure rates, which are in part due to them operating in sectors which were impacted by the pandemic, such as hospitality and tourism, and in particular the country I come from and the region that I come from, the Caribbean. However, this was also due to what has been coined as the care crisis, which intensified when nearly 90% of countries closed schools, increasing the time women spent in unpaid care work. And so within this context, ensuring gender considerations are taken into account in trade policies is a must if we want men and women to benefit equally. We need to promote fair and inclusive policies in one of the major aspects of our work. And I want to mention what Angelica said about including gender provisions in their trade agreements. This is critical and it's one of the recommendations that came out of our guide. Our flagship program, the She Trades Initiative, is dedicated to working directly with women entrepreneurs to improve their export competitiveness, while also addressing obstacles in the ecosystem which are hindering sustainable and inclusive trade. The She Trades approach to gender data is twofold. We've developed and deployed firm-level business surveys to help capture information at the grassroots level. And through these surveys, we understand what women export and the types of barriers they face. At the same time, through the She Trades outlook, ITC's policy tool on women and trade we're also able to create a bird's-eye view of the policy ecosystem in a country in order to examine data gaps, identify the areas for policy reform, and share good practices across countries. To date, the She Trades outlook includes 38 countries across and 80 good practices. So coupled with in-house technical assistance, we're also able to take this work one step further and actually provide countries with tailored support for inclusive policy reform. We have supported over 10 countries on topics ranging from national trade policies to public procurement to COVID-19 disbursement packages. Given our experience, there are a few key lessons we can share about what works well to create transformational change. The first is that data matters. Countries that put in place frameworks and mandate collection of gender data on a regular basis tend to do better at creating more conducive ecosystems for women. Regrettably, the data landscape is fragmented, making it difficult to get a good picture of many aspects of women's participation in trade. Data collection should be complemented with improved consultation mechanisms to give women's associations a voice on policies that affect them. Secondly, government commitment is key. The first step to affect actual changes for our government to recognize the role of trade in supporting gender equality. Joining the Buenos Aires Declaration on Women and Trade is an important step in this direction. Thirdly, big picture plans are important. Taking the effort ahead to develop an inclusive policy is essential. However, a policy that sits on a shelf will do no good. From the beginning of the policymaking process, it's useful to keep in mind what the implementation will look like, as well as have communication and M&E plans in place. The fourth lesson is to avoid working in silos. When it comes to women's economic empowerment, there may be many institutions that play an important role. For example, the Ministry of Trade, Education, Gender, Finance, and so on, especially with respect to consultations and development of action plans, raising awareness among these actors and ensuring their involvement will increase their buy-in and cooperation in the long term. Lastly, we need to adopt uniform terms related to women's entrepreneurship. It's important to define what it means to be a woman entrepreneur, woman-led, or woman-owned business in order to collect the relevant data, determine beneficiaries for programs, and define the target groups for policies. IDC, the ISO, and the Swedish Institute of Standards have worked with more than 350 stakeholders to develop global definitions during this issue. So I think I'll stop there for now, but thank you so much, and I'm open to discussing what other measures we can look at and how we can drill down deeper. Thank you. Thanks so much, Pamela. Penny, what actions can companies take to contribute to gender equality and where can government policy assist? Thank you so much, and first I just want to start by saying how humbled I am to be with my two co-speakers today. I have the opportunity to partner with both of them and their governments on various initiatives, some of which they've discussed today, and I just have to say that they are true leaders in the topics we're talking about today, and it's fantastic to be, but a bit humbling to be on the stage with them today. When I think about what companies can do and where we can contribute, I think of four areas in which we intersect with our populations and our citizens. So first is our employees. So the first thing I think that companies can do is really to think about diversity in their workforce and ensuring that their workforce is not only diverse, but diverse kind of at all levels. And so I think that's something that's very important consideration. I happen to be in a company that our CEO is a woman and she's a fantastic business woman and financial wizard, but also brings a different perspective to the role that I think is critical. And having diversity in your workforce and in your management ranks is incredibly important. Second is in terms of customers. And so we do a lot of work. We do a lot of work with Pamela at the ITC to work with companies around the world to help them understand and to grow their businesses and then potentially to export. Now some of these people will be our customers and some of the work we do is via our foundation. And while the work through our foundation is incredibly important, it's capacity building, it's helping out businesses that may or may not be potential UPS customers in the future. What does help us is when we do work with businesses that do become our customers. And I think of that as being truly about sustainable development. Because what we really want to do is promote more women in trade and women in business and women business leaders working with them and having them be successful and having them become our customers. It moves away from our foundation arm and moves into our core business. And then it becomes truly sustainable because it becomes good business to do business with them. So second is your customers and making sure you're doing everything you can to diversify your customer base as well. A third area where I see where companies can come and have a role in terms of kind of gender equality and particularly in trade is their suppliers. And looking at your global value chain and your global supply chain and diversifying it. I was on calls today just here in our company talking about some of our suppliers around the world and asking the questions of are we looking not only at growth and this and that, but are we also looking at the diversity of the suppliers we're bringing in from a broad perspective. In the past 18 months, two years we've seen how important diversity is. Geographic industry, etc. In terms of building resilient supply chains building resilient supply locations and I think that looking at and ensuring you have diversity in your supply chain is incredibly important. We know that the most resilient ecosystems in nature are those that are diverse. And if you have a diverse supply chain, diverse supply base, it's going to help you with your resilience. Finally, I think the other area or the last area we can look at is investors. So as large companies we also sometimes invest our capital or invest our cash in places. And I think there are opportunities to look at how to use our financial strength to also ensure that our money is being invested in places where it can not only generate a return but can also contribute socially to some of the goals that we're looking at as companies. I think about one of my icons is Dolly Parton. They think Dolly Parton in the last 18 months can do no wrong and I thought it was really interesting to hear how she took the proceeds of the money she made off the song I Will Always Love You that Whitney Houston remade and invested those proceeds in property in parts of Tennessee that were economically disadvantaged and she thought that not only was it a good investment but it was being a good corporate citizen to make those investments and was an appropriate investment of that money. So when I look at all of those four things that we look at in business and I think about government and the role that business and government can play together I see a lot of opportunities for government policies to have intersections and to not only provide partnership opportunities between government and business but also to put in place some of the nudges we might want to see with regards to some of these policies. So for example, a lot of governments, the U.S. government where I currently sit has some policies in place around supply chains and around sourcing and they've put in place for the U.S. government some requirements around minority and women owned businesses and having certain percentages that they will hire and encourage in government supply chains. And so things like that and I think policies like that are extremely helpful to put in place the right pushes and nudges above and beyond I think the policies that Pamela has talked about and Angelica has talked about earlier in the panel. Thank you so much for that. Thanks, Penny. I think it's worth noting if I can take the privilege that U.P.S. has been seen as a very pro worker company as well and that has really served them well through this pandemic when some other companies and similar industries have taken hits both brand hits and stoppage hits and I think it's a good example of this question of like whether raising the floor for workers really does ultimately create not just good brand equity but good economic resilience so certainly U.P.S.'s efforts in that regard are worthy of note. Pamela, coming back to you I think the question is is there a game changer right now on trade in terms of inclusion and equality? Gender we're talking about a lot here so you can focus on that or we can look at ethnicity and race but we've been kind of doing things the same way for a few decades and the economy doesn't look like the economy of the 1990s anymore and a lot of the kind of politics of what we see and the demoses that we see look different what does it look what would it mean to think really differently and should we about the issue of how trade can be used to advance equality around gender and race and ethnicity? Well thanks so much Thomas I mean the truth is we have to change the game we have to change the game simply because if we continue doing what we always do we'll end up getting what we've always gotten and so we have to understand that particularly in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic so much has changed and so dramatically and so quickly that we need to actually step in now and do what needs to be done to actually input this game changing provisions so you know to understand what could potentially be game changing we also need to know the landscape that we're occupying and one of the good things is that the international gender champion trade impact group and the Buenos Aires declaration placed the trade and the gender agenda firmly on the table and led to the establishment of the WTO informal working group and we hope that this is just the beginning there's been a lot of momentum building at the multilateral trade and gender level but the new normal demands a bolder ecosystem approach that engages a broad coalition of stakeholders nationally, regionally and internationally so the WTO informed working group is currently developing its MC-12 deliverables I can't say what there is to expect but I can surely share with you what I think should happen at MC-12 and beyond I think first of all we need to ensure developments in Geneva and at MC-12 result in real change on the ground and this will imply concrete deliverables in terms of political commitments to set up the initiatives to support women entrepreneurs and women producers but also additional trade resources especially for developing countries to enable them to implement these programs I also want to encourage countries to join the she trades outlook I hope that the MC-12 deliverable will recommend members to adopt it as the G7 trade ministers have done secondly we need to foster greater linkages and intersectionality in the trade and gender space at the International Gender Champions Trade Impact Group ITC along with co-chairs Iceland and Botswana are also proposing a private public partnership component to our new work plan and this work plan is on the review at this time but I think it will be a very important game changer and I know Penny will be on board so we look forward to working with you on updates in the coming months and I want to concentrate on gender we need to look more at cross cutting issues and promote women as agents of change in the circular economy in digitalization and across the board we know that women are seriously underrepresented for example in technology and algorithms have been built using data which are inherently biased and so if we know where the economy is now and where it's heading towards then it becomes all the more urgent that we double down on efforts to close the digital gender gap now and thirdly we need to better understand how to mainstream gender into the WTO and into international trade by leveraging WTO and processes this will bring the trade and gender into the heart of the multilateral trading system I know it's extremely ambitious and requires not only expertise and partnerships but also a mindset change but I think it can happen and ITC with the support of the European Union is working on a gender lens framework as it pertains to the WTO and this requires several months so we should reasonably expect that it will be discussed at MC 13 but I do believe that it is time for the game to change I think we can do it with the kind of cooperation that we have and the fact that we have people like Penny and Angelica on this panel I think we can leverage the goodwill and the recognition that women gender is a serious issue and that women have suffered the most during this COVID-19 crisis thanks Thank you Pamela and when I come back I think it would be useful to understand what folks outside you know we started this panel with that beautiful video of the younger generation wanting to demand more of trade to get your advice to them on what is useful and what's not useful in terms of advancing the chances that something like that game changer approach could see the light of day and become successful so we'll come back on that but Angelica you know I briefly had a mural up behind me of essential workers which I meant to have and I was told I'm not allowed to add in the middle but you know it was a time during COVID where we really saw a different face of workers including of women workers and that this was not this was about entrepreneurs but we also saw nurses and teachers and construction workers and restaurant workers have a very different kind of sense of being what came to be known as essential in this and so I'm curious with you how we make sure the gender work we're doing on trade with women are seen in this process and then along with that what other aspects of inclusive trade is Chile trying to advance beyond the issues of gender that are so important thanks thank you thank you very much for those questions well with regard to work with different type of women that leads different sectors and it's very important something that Pamela told us the work with the other ministries this is very important because in that regard you could work with the Ministry of Education the Ministry of Labor the Ministry of Gender and Equity so it is very important to see what we can do together in order to reach those gaps and support the women not only in trade but also in other aspects and there is also elements on digitalization education and areas such as science so that's why for example the roadmap is very broad not only the Pacific Alliance roadmap we are working on but also the APA so I think the work that we do internally domestically with the ministries but also the work and the experience that we can share with partners are very very important with regard to the other aspects of inclusive trade let me tell you that we do not only work on the inclusion of women but also we want to address other issues such as SMEs MSMEs particularly and indigenous people and we think those we have it is important to mutually support and make a coherent trade with our domestic policies and try to remove those barriers the barriers that are in trade and facilitate the integration into this supply change the international trade so we have been working and if you see in our FDA we have a standalone chapter on MSMEs and in fact if you see the figures MSMEs represent nearly the 90% of the businesses and it provides more than 50% of the labor force and if you see Chile and we have a wide network of FDA but regularly let me tell you that we have a very limited MSMEs exports only 1.6% of the total companies exported in last year for example so in that sense it is very important to focus the work in promoting their internationalization in understanding what are the problems they have reducing the regulatory barriers supporting them in improving the access to finance strengthening capacity to use digital platform e-commerce in fact that Chile has recently joined the DEPA that is the digital economy trade agreement we try to include MSMEs in different bilateral trade agreements CPTPP with Argentina with Uruguay, with Brazil with Ecuador but not only MSMEs we try also to approach indigenous people in trade policy and we don't have specific chapters or provision in our FDAs but we consider that there are some cooperation areas in which we contemplate supporting economic opportunities for rural and indigenous women and this is the case for example with the GTACA Global Trade and Gender Arrangement that has this area of cooperation or in CPTPP in which we have an area of cooperation provision or an area of traditional knowledge traditional cultural so we have that kind of provision and we also have the export promotion bureau that priority size in its work program the support of the companies that are owned by indigenous people so since 2015 it has developed this program and is supporting different indigenous people communities in Chile to promote their products, their services internationally so we find that that is the way we need to evolve to work as capacity building mentorship, training, marketing, management and support in a more sustainable way indigenous people to have access to international trade and through that to the benefits that we have through our FDA so we strongly believe that MSMEs, women, indigenous people are the persons we need to support in order to ensure that trade is supporting to have also an inclusive economic growth for the countries. Thank you, Donas. Thank you so much. Coming back to you, Penny, you spoke some about the power of diversity in terms of ecosystem resilience and business resilience. How can the private sector do more to contribute to racial equity and the protection of migrant workers through trade right now at this tumultuous time? Yeah, so Pamela and I have the pleasure of co-chairing but the World Economic Forum that works on trade and investment and we've recently put out a paper on this topic around social justice and racial equity and trade. I think that some of the principles I've already talked about with regards to the business community ensuring that your supply chain is diverse, ensuring your customer base is diverse and you're doing what you can to help diverse businesses expand their business by you look at your own workforce. All of those are equally applicable when we think about the issues around broader diversity and some of the social justice issues in our day-to-day businesses. Some of the government policies also intersect and are very similar but in our paper we articulated a couple of specific areas whereby trade in particular could look at and potentially contribute to eliminating some of the discrimination or bias that we see in the world today when it comes to certain disadvantaged groups. And I think Pamela has already articulated that one aspect of that is data. You almost need to shine a spotlight on some of it in order for people to understand. One thing that we've seen is that in some places in Canada for example we work with indigenous populations, they're actually very successful at exporting and there may be lessons to replicate and some of the programs that the government has put in place that may be something of interest to look at elsewhere. It's then looking at the rules and when you look at the international trade rules they're premised on non-discrimination. But the question is how can we take that and move that even further? How can we maybe be a little bit more in some cases affirmative about the lack of discrimination or the elimination of discrimination in certain areas? So at the WTO there's the domestic regulation negotiations that are ongoing. These involve what I would call non-tariff barriers for services and there's a provision that looks at eliminating discrimination for anybody that's in these trade agreements with regards to gender. So licenses and permits will not be able to be issued based on gender as a criteria. It's a small it may sound small because there's not a lot of them that are out there but it's an important signal that gets sent with regards to discrimination will not be tolerated in these trade agreements. I think then it's looking at the inclusive practices. How do we ensure that all parts of the population are being included in terms of implementation of trade agreements and are able to take advantage of trade agreements and I think that's a combination again of things like ITC and UPS as partnership with regards to capacity building and training and reaching out to communities who may not be reached to be a traditional networks and then looking at and expanding certain government programs that have been used to help with promoting exports for certain parts of the population and then again kind of going back to starting with the data and ending with the data making sure that you monitor and assess where things have landed after all of this and then tweaking where appropriate and where maybe the consequences haven't been as the pulled through in the way that was initially negotiated and desired. So those are just some of the ideas that our group has come up with on how to advance some of these racial equity issues particularly using the trade rules moving forward. So before we transition over to the off the record portion Pamela you were positively name-checked there so didn't know if you had anything you wanted to add on this part. Yeah, thanks so much Thomas and thanks Penny for highlighting our co-chairmanship and the paper that came out. I mean we could talk ad infinitum about this issue but the issue of inclusion not just with relation to gender but in relation to the intersectionality of race. As a black woman I know in very specific terms the kinds of challenges that are faced not just from the perspective of being a woman but also from the perspective of being a woman of color and so we need to also be honest if we want to talk about game changer we have to start to drill down to the specific issues that affect women and women of color in different ways than those that are not women of color it's just the reality and so even things like access to finance are bigger issues things like government procurement contracts which is a huge opportunity for many women but can we realistically engage in that indigenous women you look at the rate at which issues of non-inclusion in the economics of the society and then the rate of suicide we begin to look at all the various elements so that's I don't want to go on but I could but what I'm saying is that we need to be I think ambitious we need to be honest and we need to begin to be brave enough to challenge what has continued to be a very dysfunctional situation for women and by extension women of color for a very long time thanks Thomas thank you so much Pamela so I think we're transitioning if our tech support will have it into the discussion more open discussion portion of this so I think we will just proceed with that