 So welcome, everyone, to our second public lecture this semester with our guest, Raj Rewal. Raj is a distinguished Indian architect, urban designer, and educator, and in addition to his talk tonight, we're very pleased to be hosting an exhibition of his work in our gallery, which you're all invited to visit afterwards, and I'm sure Raj would be very pleased to walk through the gallery with you in conversation. Raj's work has been shown widely, including in places like Parma, Italy, at the National Gallery of Modern Art in New Delhi, and it's recently been acquired into the permanent collection at the Pompidou in Paris and the MoMA here in New York. So we're especially privileged to be able to bring it to our students and colleagues this fall, my Roger Williams. And before I introduce Raj more fully, I want to take a pause to say thank you to our hard-working exhibition team, and this includes John O'Keeffe and Heather Wilson, and and to our student model builders, Chris Norcross, Connor Ashtonult, and Evan Kordova for really excellent work on the beautiful models and graphics that you'll see out in the gallery. I want to also say a special thanks to our own Hassan Khan, who invited Raj and his wife Helena to be with us this fall, and knowing that it's Hassan's final semester, final semester of the school, before entering what I hope is a really glorious retirement, I want to say that it's been a pleasure serving with you on the events committee. So now let me just say a few things about our speaker. Raj Rewell studied architecture first in Delhi and then in London at the AA, and at the Brixton School for Building in the late 1950s, really rich fertile time for architecture. Then he went on to Paris to work in the office of French architect Michel Ecochard, who was both an architect and a full-fledged urban designer. We might even wonder or say that Raj's courage to think and design at the urban scale might have some roots in those years in his work in Paris. Nonetheless, in 1962 he returned to India, and at that time Le Corbusier was accomplishing some completely new things in Chandigarh, and that's when he decided to start his own practice. In his subsequently prolific career since then to the present day, he's designed a huge range of project types including low-cost housing, educational and research institutions, a library, museums, offices, private homes, a games village, an embassy, just to name a few project types. Particularly striking those is the ability to successfully operate within a larger scale of architecture. Projects like the Asian Games Village or the State University of Performing and Visual Arts, which are both on display in the gallery, show just how depletely he's handled campus scale design, harmonizing the whole while simultaneously producing enough masala as he calls it, or a variety of ingredients while still weaving a sensitivity to context at the architectural scale. So his approach to design responds to the complexities of place and time, the climate and the culture in a really unique way. And although he studied architecture in the West and his work is unmistakably modern, Raj was significantly influenced by the built heritage of India. Through his teaching and through a two-year exhibition project that he was involved with that set out to document and display traditional works of architecture in India, he developed a hands-on appreciation for the spatial configurations, materials, and formal vocabularies of traditional precedents. And he's always believed the raza, or the spirit of each building type, should evolve from its site, program, and symbolic concerns. That's very deeply rooted in India. And his quest to find the appropriate raza really relies on the use of architectural elements like, you know, space, structure, light, materiality, sustainability, all fundamental things that we still continue to study, explore, and teach, and work with as architects. Raj's work has been published widely, including in monographs in English and French. And he's the recipient of numerous accolades, including the gold medal from the Indian Institute of Architects, the Mexican Association of Architects Award for Regional Values, notice the global influence, and the Great Masters Award by the JK Trust for a lifetime contribution to modern architecture in the post-independence area, ERA in India. So with that, please join me in welcoming Raj Rewal. Thank you very much, Nathan, for your very kind words. And I'm very happy to be here. I was here 10 years ago, I think, and when there was a seminar, and I liked the very pleasant environment of the school of architecture, and the university, and the whole city. So I'm particularly happy to be back here. And I had the pleasure of having both Hassan and Stephen White in Delhi at some stage. And I know they're, they all already understand or know about Indian architecture, and the wonderful book which Stephen has done about what's called Billings in the Garden, about Joe Stein, who has been a little senior to us, and has always had a very, sort of, interest for us when we, when I first came to, to, to work in India, because that showed that some very good works could be done in India. And let's say, so, in a way, Corbusier at one time, Louis Khan, another time. So India was very fertile period for a young architect to come in. So I think I'll show some of my work. But the, what I would like to point out is that we are living in a very diverse world. Is it? We are living in a very diverse world. You know, I mean, with very heterogeneous political systems, also levels of development, rich countries, developing countries and all that. But at the same time, I think we have seen the world being connected very sharply, very suddenly, with iPhones, I could talk to my office yesterday, computers, internet, et cetera, which was not there even 10 to 15 years ago. So the more we are getting connected, the, in a way, diversity is also happening at the same time, in a way. So it's a very interesting period in the whole world. And for some of us who travel a lot or see things, but I would like to point out that this diversity is what I would call the plural modernity, because there has been one or maybe two or three sort of lineages on modern architecture. One from, let's say, from the Bahá'u School, which, as you know, means and gropeers when they came to Europe, from Europe to America, how it flourished. Then the other school, perhaps, which we could consider is maybe Alvaralto. I was very surprised to see his work because they were distinctly different. So he brought to the modernism another kind of works, which were, let's say, diverse from the mainstream of modernity. Now I hope that the kind of work which I'm going to show is another strand, another kind of plural modernity. But the roots of my works, though, of course, influenced by maybe, as you can see, perhaps a little bit from Khan and Muchmore, Corbusier, and even Joe Stein, but I evolved in another direction, I imagine. That was from the traditional Indian architecture. I think I'm showing here one image, which is from Fatehpur Siegri. To my opinion, the modern architecture started here. Here is a, let's say, respect for the materials as found, stone, and variety of structural system which went in. I mean, if I was to talk about it, it would take a very long time. So I'll quickly go over the plan of it, which actually, I was responsible in a way for measuring it. Patap is here, some of the very young architects who worked. So we spent two years of our office time to measure part of the traditional Indian architecture. Now the British architects are done some buildings individually, but this is the kind of, you can say, the perspective which we drew as we went along to search of certain values which were inherent, series of interconnected courtyards, buildings which have deep shadows built into the grain of the structural system itself. So the first lesson of ecological architecture, how to be very cool in a very warm climate, and also when there is winter, how to go up on the roof to enjoy sunshine, et cetera. Now this is another palace complex in Udaipur. If you ever go to India, I don't think you should miss this one, because it's also something which shows the relationship between the building, the landscape, its surrounding in a very, sort of almost like a romantic way. But I mean, these are, as you can see, the trees, plants, they all sort of fuse together, all of these things. Now another facet of Indian architecture is a temple in South India. You could see about, let's say, on one particular weekend, about almost half a million people. And how the strategy of movement within the building, the pond, the structure, I mean, so these are the sort of things I started measuring. But here is another example. I think a wonderful example of modernity. It's a building to observe the stars and planets, and it's called, actually it's an observatory. And I was very happy to note that both Kobuzye talked about in their letters when he wrote to his wife, and also used some of the elements in his building. So I mean, this is part of the observatory. So I think what I'm trying to say is there is another strand of modernity. And I think it would be interesting if it can bring something to the modern architecture, another way of looking or building, another way of designing and considering. Now this is, the building on the left is by Latians. And when he built in India, he has started with the idea of showing what he said, what the superiority of the western art, science, and culture, sort of very assertive, aggressive way of building. But by the time he had finished, he had started copying the Sanchi Stupa talk, because his wife had almost become a kind of a Buddhist or Theosifical Society. And he used the railing from the same thing from the Sanchi Stupa, another wonderful building, built maybe 300 before we see. And the Michel E. Couchab, for whom I worked, had been to India before. And he said, for him, this was the first truly great monument comparable to the best things done by the Greeks in Pantheon, Parthenon, et cetera, the Roman building. Anyway, now another image which you see from the Jodhpur fort, as you see the city laid out. Now, the city actually breathes through small lanes and courtyard. I've just been to Spain again. And Todidhoi's similar thing, Segovia. So all the countries which have a certain climate. So that's it. They're a walkable thing, which pedestrianized spaces, so which we are totally missing in the modern architecture. And this is the plan of the Jason mayor, which again we had measured. As you can see, the space between the buildings. You can see the spatial arrangement. These are all made into wonderful, we've made very large drawings of all of them, which were shown at the festival of India in Paris. Now you can see the three-dimensional aspect of it. I mean, in a way, then there is similarity with Renaissance Italian spaces, but also very different, because they're very homogeneous, because all one city built only in one sandstone. So if you ever get to India, please don't forget to go to Jason mayor. I mean, I wrote about it at that time. And it became, especially in the French architectural magazine, and it became quite a hit. Now, small kids speak a bit of French to take the tourists around, so to speak. And now you can see the facade elements. These are prefabricated elements, actually, believe it or not, of that period and all which the residents bought from the craftsman to be used from their facade. So there is a tremendous homogeneity in the whole city. Now, these are the sort of influences on my works, and I'll show quickly a spectrum of my works, which I would start with National Institute of Immunology. Now, the program here was for the professors and scholars and research people to be staying next to where they were actually working doing the research. And so these are sort of elements of the central one which you see the small auditorium space, but the roof is hung and the roof is actually utilized for at least on some occasion by Dr. Pranth Talwar, who was the Patap's father, so who gave me very free hand to build it. And we could use the spaces for musical evenings, et cetera, because we didn't have enough money to make another theaters, et cetera. So this is the model. Actually, now I think in the MoMA, perhaps this one, you can see the sort of space, small courtyard, but which are all linked together in a way around the central building, which is a scientific research institute. Now these are some of the roots which we had established very early in the project because it was built in faces, how you go from one courtyard to the other, the elements of surprise and central spaces. So actually these are elements I learned more from traditional Indian architecture, but developed a vocabulary of design which is, of course, totally different based on materials and potential for what can be built at this stage in India. You can see now the other problem was when you're building very diverse building types, how to have a homogeneity. This was a major problem for almost all my building because they're becoming larger projects. So as I said, between urban design and architecture, there's another category which I would call epic architecture, epic designs which are very large done by one architect to have a certain homogeneity, but enough changing variation, enough spice in it so that there is a, I mean, almost like, as I sometimes described, like a narrative long hours like war and peace, which has many chapters, which are several stories strung together. So you can see this building. This is actually a cafeteria which you enter. This is the space around it. I mean, this is the kind of thing. You can see small spaces which you can sit around. Now you have a wonderful weather today, but in winter, I believe it's very cold. But, I mean, in Delhi, I think we could use the open spaces much more easily like in Italy or Spain. You can see now the buildings and the plants have grown up. I mean, this is the situation now. I mean, it takes about an hour and a half or two hours almost to go around the whole project. Now this is the first courtyard which I built and in a way, perhaps, in Indian modernism, this may be the first example if I'm not bragging, which is totally to traditional architectural values from learn from Jason Mayer. Small courtyards, roof terraces, and even the punctures and the windows, but they have a different vocabulary of design. You can see now the material I chose was from sandstone grids applied in situ on the side. This is also very unusual for the time, but the craftsman got caught used to it rather than having prefabricated elements plonked on. It was cheaper, easier, and faster to build this way. You can see the kind of spaces from across the courtyard, looking across to the views of the surroundings, because I think perhaps, I'm sure some of you have seen Alhambra, how the views are focused on to the external thing. So I think this is another aspect of which I used in my buildings. The spaces which lead to, let's say, this is a small amphitheater, which is a courtyard built around the scholars hostel. This is the building plants thing. This is the scholars hostel with rooms built into it. These are the professors housing around another courtyard. So these are the section, the duplex units for the professors. Now I think Indian, Indian government at that time had to entice many of the scientists who work here, the Indian scientists, to come back. So they gave them these kind of houses or kind of this kind of environment to live in so they could come back. Now you can see, this is the second phase of construction. I was getting more confident in how the light is diffused, structure becomes a little bit more part of the landscape, etc. You can see the second phase of the model. I think you have the drawings in the exhibition. So you can spend some time. So these are the inner streets and with complete shadows. Here we started mixing that the professors and students can live in a same kind of, let's say, apartments if you like, low-rise density. And I think it was quite successful in a way to mingle them so they can probably like each other or hate each other more if they are staying so close. So this is the kind of a cabinery. I go a bit faster but you can see the diffuse, the light is very different and I had how to diffuse it was a very intriguing process of both learning from the past and using it. You can see the series of interlinked courtyard around the housing. Now this is a totally different kind of a project. This is the Library for the Indian Parliament. This is the Imperial Complex designed by Latians and Baker and it's a Grand Avenue, Central Vista and my job or my work was to relate the building which you see on the upper left with the Baker's Parliament building. So it was an architectural competition which I had won the Library for the Indian Parliament. Now the Library Complex also you have, I really like to thank all the students who had worked on the model of it and I think they may have some intriguing questions about it. And this is actually a Google image of this one. So let's say my work was in a way to be both compatible with Latians who had been so aggressive and also at the same time to show certain what I would call the Indian ethos. So the building on the top is in a way much more inward looking rather than imperial columns which come from let's say and also to relate to it in a manner. And this is the roof garden of the building as you see the complex. So this is the plan of it. I think the plan they are making. I don't know if there are any students are there doing it in a different manner. But I sort of designed the buildings around the three co-chards and the very different elements to break it up into smaller segments to be a bit more human because coming from the housing which I was doing in a way that seeped into this sort of discrete monumentality of doing this building to be compatible with it but at the same time quite different. You can see the kind of spaces. So really the building merged with the old Baker's building but it has its own co-chart garden and a new vocabulary of design. This is sort of different co-charts but as you know as architect we have to sell our project and I said the three co-chart represents equality fraternity the three aspects of the constitution. So and actually this caught up with the politicians as well. And you can see now this is the entrance hall and another idea which I had and I don't know how successful it was the idea of enlightenment. Let's say if Latians was trying to show off something else I took the idea of enlightenment from Buddhist and Jain building where the light is the most important thing I think if you ever go to Ranatpur temple you can you can see how to so the building is sort of these are the small domes which are lifted above on the column and the light pours through this glass brick sometimes and you can see the central space with the glass dome and the floor which is really again sort of Buddhist petals which sort of symbolize the idea of enlightenment I think most Indians would probably understand that. Now I showed another project Lisbon this was again an international limited competition and which I surprisingly won and you can see the it has a series of co-chart from the entrance and it owes a lot to the I think not only the Indian precedents but also a lambda how you enter from thing the series of interlinked co-chart how they open into one space into the other so let's say it's a kind of modernism which is very different from what has what is being done elsewhere by my contemporary architects in the world now I use the stone vocabulary from Leo's from Lisbon which is and I use its texture in a very different manner and as you go along the idea of garden becomes very important both inside and outside and now this is the whole prayer hall and the structural system owes a lot to what is popularly known as Islamic patterns and as in the Islamic buildings you're not supposed to have any that's a figurative elements so I depended entirely on the geometrics of it and at the same time I was very understood that I had to it's a sacred space and I didn't want it to look like a gymnasium or something like that I mean this is a very important thing for us architects to consider and I often use the word rassa for it what should be the spirit of the building and in this case I I thought we use the granite and the stainless steel flesh together and it was a in a way you this is the prayer hall inside you can see so the vocabulary totally modern in fact I could even go further than since very innovative structures both for the facade elements as well as for the roof I think if I take me long time to explain the fragile construction of granite which is strong in compression and steel in tension and how these could be combined together to have a very light stone structure overlooking the the courtyard now this is the roof structure these are the ferrocement domes with with stone cladding as a permanent shuttering but the contractor chose to use it in a building in a slightly different manner but as you can see the patterns owe a lot to what I thought was I don't know in Jiro Nima and the quality of light within the buildings is very different you can see the structural system here this is a small mural done by my son who passed away at some stage and you can see the granite elements which were almost like a because of Spain and Portugal and the stone countries which have a tremendous tradition of building in stone I mean compared to the rest of the Europe they did not make make full ceiling of stone inside and had the wood covered so I think I could draw upon the the the strength of their stone building and cutting techniques etc to make a very modern building you can see the joints you can see and actually now the trees and plants have grown up is very different but you can see the bare structure and the structural system of bracing bracing steam stone and granite together you can see the steel cables to see that the building which is very light does not move in the both direction this is another very large project which is almost and not 100 percent complete but here we use to the all the elements particularly now a photovoltaic panels on the roof but I go back to the old Sarnath structure of a university circular element and also to buildings in Bologna the oldest university so to draw upon it and also of course the Oxford University so I mean the scale of this project is very large is these are the four very different component like the school of architecture fashion Institute film Institute and of course the design textile design so here I used an element of the roof which is a photovoltaic panels but it's also a symbol it's called they're called Dharma Chakra or in the Buddhist mythology or their circle of living right rightful living so I thought the photovoltaic panels would be a very good symbol for our times and I've used that on the roof but in that I think in the model and the section which you see in the library would explain it better than I can perhaps on this lecture but you can see in the model it's a project which was which has a lot of very diverse element but fused together by the sandstone building using the material which is similar and I use the red sandstone for individual buildings in the white sandstone to denote what was common to all the different diverse schools of architecture you can this is the plan of it you can see what during the construction the the project the scale of it so this is what I meant when I said the epic works and how to fuse together very different elements and and at the same time to have a certain homogeneity I mean you can see sunken spaces for seminars outdoor spaces and I think I'll finish with this is the kind of ambience which is there the sections of it I think those of you have been working on it and still need finishing there but this is the amphitheater within it and actually being used now this is let's say fashion design overlooking its coach yard and because it had two very large exhibition halls and spaces for it but I'm showing one little one significant image from Corbusier's building to use of light because I think for us architects at least as I see for myself we can imagine almost everything which we are going to do by the time you reach my age but the light is still very difficult to visualize how the building would have what kind of light they have and how they like speculate how it would change the design element so I think you can see the the the fours which are created and even for me it was a surprise and sometimes a good surprise sometime oh is that going to be like that so you can see so it's a this is the kind of suddenly the light which if you which becomes which changes the architecture altogether this is the fine art school with an auditorium within it and I think this is the interior of the library because the top most floor I think you will see in the sections of the library I have not shown that now I think I don't know if there's a time I will have another 10-15 minutes before this is a very unusual complex even for me and I had by that time at the University I thought you know I've done enough work but somebody said oh you have to do this project for us it's a junk is really a freedom struggle complex actually colonialism has been one of the biggest major event in the history of mankind for 250 years India was under the British of segments of India and Punjab was the last province which they actually took from Ranjeet Singh's and after three battle grounds so this is built in Punjab to for a cologne to what was the freedom struggle and you can see some of the worst events were when Jalya Wala Bagh I don't know if you know historically when people were massacre totally innocent and even the British even the Churchill who was very imperialistic apologize for that but you know I mean it's not accepted in India now my inspiration for this project was the what we call the Golden Temple I hope some of you have seen it and all the monument from Sanjeev stupa the the Mughal structures with their domes and marble and on on the right even the pantheon which is actually a memorial with a nice little rooftop circle and how the the light dances across so it's very diverse elements which and also in Punjab the it's a very dynamic part of the Indian province you can see the fabrics of patterns of petals and dancing very dynamic so I took these as the elements of my design so these are the preliminary computer model sketches if you like again you can see the flowers as a structural system I thought to be nice as a homage to all those martyrs and as you can imagine the very vast scale and the the elements of design entrance hall a binaret which has a place for the martyrs to to to pay obeisance to them and of course the final structure and these are some of the images the building is still not complete because the landscape is a major element of design and I think you will see the in the exhibition the this the construction and section elements much more than I'm showing here but use of stone amphitheater detailed sections and this is the entrance hall is the first time I use marble and I was very worried about using marble because marble has very different connotations and in a way the white is secret in Punjab most of the building but at the same time I was a bit worried to use this white because the white sort of looks very different in the night and the evenings and the I think it can be you can see the entrance hall because this is a big tradition as you enter you see the focus on the major elements as the entrance hall I think Hassan would probably recognize it more you can see the roof structure the light I think you can see it's beginning to work a little bit and I think I would stop with that thank you very much thank you thank you you want to say something Stephen I just want to thank you for coming coming back great to have you here for myself the scope of your work and scope with thought but your friendly and generous presence are great things to be out here to show what architects are it's great honor to have you here thank you very much thank you I think you might be able to take this off roof structures used to know how was the relationship of you with the structure engineer and how they collaboration you know whether or not was the you know some of that compression small domes with a truss action system stuff like that was the design transformed by the by the getting the numbers or was pretty much what you wanted initially or how they think transform for efficiency and aesthetics a very good question let's put it like that my background is very much as a with great interest in structures from my school university days and in fact I've done one of the structures I've not shown which is one of the largest space frame in concrete 256 feet so structure has been the basis of a lot of my work and I think expression of structure itself I think is very to be to become the base basic ethos of the whole building but now the collaboration between the architects and the engineer I think is your question I think that's but essentially once you the design architect has to establish before the structural engineer comes in but once the some structure engineer comes in he begins to point out certain aspects and it becomes any dialogue I always call it like a musical dialogue because the structure Jugal Bandi is the word which we use in India that they it becomes any flexible at that time whatever your thoughts were so you begin to take on from the structure engineer once he runs his numbers then he says oh your your elements are not going to be 12 inches but maybe 14 inches would be better and I'm having problem with the I'm talking about the another structure where he begins to say okay the steel rods will not run through so we need something but let's say the structure of the Lisbon is finally center I had been had given the design it was already established the whatever the numbers were and when I went to the structural engineers I wanted over to do it is one of the worst best known and they were a bit worried about in earthquake zone whether we can actually do it so finally I hit upon Portuguese engineer who's the head of the department and he read he ran through certain numbers and then he said you know granite is not an element which is which which can be quantified because it's grains run in different manners so he actually tested one element one unit of it and then we established that granites of only particular type would be used because for compression the strength because there is no record of it so but the stain the use of steel and stainless steel etc. members was probably fairly easy to do it and by the time we had established it I think he was quite confident to go ahead with it so in a way the architects have to conceptualize and very well and I think it's very good to have structural base very strongly and I think the British system in which I studied and let's say the major architect like Foster and Rogers they all come from the same roots of having a good structural base to their thinking I think what's happening in the world because this is a question I see go we are very much discussed where I last gave a talk you see what's happening now is there is a one is a star system that the architects do signature buildings all over the world that's one thing then what is happening is the financial constraints or this disciplines if I may use the word in different parts of the words are let's say as somebody said form follows finance is becoming very important in so let's say the when the building let's say let's take the Renaissance period when the let's say the society in which the not only the king but the dukes and all that who are very well knowledgeable about the art would commission money was not such an important issue etc. so let's say often when we are designing these days is for the committees let's say for the university there was a committee they had established the rules and you build it and this was the discipline of the money you can't exceed it if you do the building will stop so so you have to take what I'm saying is that these are the financial constraint different parts of the world are there but for me the the major theoretical aspect of the work which is I have not touched in this thing is what I call the Rasa I mean I think you may be some of you it's almost word become part of the English dictionary now if you the Rasa means ambience or flavor or even the spirit of a particular building so when you start designing what should be the let's say the expression or Rasa or even if I but what should be the soul of a building let's say I go even further to when you are designing something like structure for a colonial freedom struggle what should it be you can do anything I mean the client gives you cut the blush you have the so it's a big responsibility at that time now I would say certain kind of architects would just what they had done last and do up more of that the for me it has been as you can see in the they are very different all the three four project from let's say the university or the parliament library and this they're very different because I started from the base of thinking what should be the Rasa or what should be the spirit of each building so maybe they are designed by one architect but they have very different forms very different actually ambience as you go in I mean Lisbon Smiley center is totally different from what is within the let's say parliament library building I mean and they are also very different from the university project or the freedom struggle so this is what I mean pluralism if I may bring to the modern architecture movement a certain different spirit of doing the building theoretical base for it I don't know if I answer your question yes a little louder you mentioned that it's an interesting thing because I don't want to say that the fact that you're here I would recognize around you well you talk about signatures but there is the idea this modular there is an idea of a certain kind of materiality I think what you say is maybe partly true for institutional buildings which are let's say four story five story high I mean I I think making courtyard is maybe not a very original thing it's come down but from ecological point of view it really makes sense so let's say long before they were talking about sustainable architecture 30 40 years ago I found that is the way to go about it and it worked out very well because the temperature control by having using the courtyard is really you bring down the ten ten ten degrees so to speak in a very hot climate it makes sense so that's one thing now the second thing the use of material materiality and craft I think let's say the glass is a often synonymous with modernity then in Dubai they are making huge glass towers which doesn't make sense to me because when you have a 50 degree temperature so stone I found to be let's say maybe I was the first one to use in the modern movement in Indian architecture but I found it let's say from three points to be very pertinent first of all my first building which you have seen which have not shown of the brick and concrete so it was a little painful for me to clad them because truth true to material was the sort of ethos of my generation but suddenly to clad it with stone it was a little I mean let's say I was a bit reluctant user but then if you have an air conditioning building you need an insulation over and above brick and concrete and I thought stone was very good because especially with a gap and I've not shown it the World Bank building is the first one and they definitely wanted American clients the temperature should not be you know we always use insulation so I devised that why not have stone as a surface material insulation in between so that was another reason to use stone third one believe it or not there are such good craftsmen in stone in India I mean may I would say perhaps in Lisbon they were very good and stone I mean it's a shame that they have not built in stone in Spain I mean it's because the fashion is not to use stone I mean so I reverse that I mean for me it was stone became a material for as I said institutional building but I have done as you see STC building is very different and the building I have done in Calcutta doesn't use stone because it's so far from that which I have not shown so but I'm more or less using very much photovoltaic elements and element of design and to so I don't know if in future my the last few building would be recognized because I have used photovoltaic panels right from the beginning as a design element but perhaps you're right if somebody associate my work with courtyard and stone I'm very happy about that a little louder yeah oh so I'm going forward I'm going forward the tower okay you see the let's say I would use the word Minaret because tower is a Minar and when the client first proposed that we should do the Minaret I was a bit I said you know it's not used in modern architecture I mean I come from I have and I said maybe Minar is a phallic symbol because that's how it was described in the historical I don't know who's the I don't remember the theoretical so I didn't want to use it but he said oh you don't know Minar is a symbol of victory and so we have to have it and that's where the we will have the flame for unknown martyr because it's not recognized than more than I don't know more than 20,000 people were killed during colonial period I mean different battles and massacre everybody knows about Gandhi and peaceful part of it but there was struggle going on partly just before the British actually took over so that's the use of the Minaret in this case symbol that ultimately those who sacrifice have won if I may and I think it's understood it was not even understood by me but my client a very vulnerable Siddharji said that's what I want and that's what he had and he's recognized by children everybody comes there and you know and I imagine that on that the Golden Temple is visited by some people like half a million people on a week days Saturday Sunday now we are beginning to have 40 to 30,000 and maybe one day we would have so that's why that wasp is going towards it is designed like that. Does somebody who has had such a long spanning really successful career with the reconstruction can you speak to what you see as the most maybe enriching or fulfilling moment in a project whether it's the designing phase or seeing the project completed or anything? That's a very difficult question what is satisfying okay at a very lighter level when they have paid us but but but the I think the I think the when the construction process is going on when you visit the building series of it and that's also that's most satisfying period and also very you begin to think oh it could have been done a little better so it's both satisfying and also a little it has little problems at that time you are being very critical about oneself that I had imagined two or three things but this is what is being built maybe it could have been done that way the way I thought but generally speaking during construction I think the finishing when the building is finished is somebody maybe you visited after three or four years afterward it's satisfying if the clients say they were very happy about it because your own emotional emotional touch with the building someone fizzles out kind of learning perhaps the when you're teaching that's the best part of learning because you have to make sure what you're teaching you see and I think the first four five years of being a professor was the best part of my learning and for myself because I had to teach very suddenly very diverse subject and our history teacher emigrated to New Zealand or something and overnight the head of the department somebody stronger than Stephen say you have to teach history so I said but look I've never studied Indian history have come from Europe and blah blah blah she said no but you are he said but going away that I could teach history and because that the only reason was that my wife was very interested to visit everything so we had a car and we went to see all the historical monuments so we had seen all the surrounding building so that became the sort of trigger point for the head of the school to say teach and when you're teaching you read all the books you different points of view and then you have your own point of view eventually so I think teaching is a wonderful process of learning and also I think our friend who asked about the structure I had to teach structure design theoretical structure design and believe me I mean the wonderful book written by some others on conceptual structures and all that by Italian I forget his name so you become very engrossed in it and question when yourself and you're teaching others so I think teaching is the best process of learning and as you begin to build your building you learn from your own buildings or I can do this next bit better so something so the process of both teaching and your own designs lead you on to something I don't know progress further