 history is here to help. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech today. We're going to talk about the war in Ukraine revisiting. Actually, we never left the battlefield. We've been visiting it a whole time. We're going to have an update from Carl Ackerman on the war in Ukraine. He is familiar with Eastern Europe and you can talk about that. And we're going to start that drill down discussion, if you will, in one moment. Good afternoon, Carl. It's nice to see your smile and face. Welcome to Think Tech. Welcome to this discussion. Thank you, Jay, the Minch Fidel. All right. We're going to pass right over that. We're going to get to the war in Ukraine. I select news stories to be included in our Think Tech daily advisory. And although there's certainly a lot happening in Congress and in this country, there's also something happening every day in Ukraine. And sometimes I feel we ought to report more on Ukraine because that will determine the future of the liberal world order. So it's a very tender subject and it's prices every day, brutality, war crimes, violations of human rights every day. And so it's important that we keep up with it. And that's why I'd like to have this discussion with you. So in a larger sense, Carl, what's happening? It's been a year. You know, Jay, as most people know, the Ukrainians have been doing quite well. The Russians are now trying to recruit more men and just throw them into battle. And as you and I had discussed, the movie Enemy at the Gates comes to mind when actually it was the Germans that were invading the Russians. And it was at Stalingrad and the approach. And it's a wonderful movie because you see Nikita Khrushchev as a sort of mid-level party functionary telling people to go into battle with some of them without bullets to pick up the gun from the person in front of them who has just been killed and get the bullets from that person and then go and continue to fight. And that's what they did. It was a war of attrition. That's why the Russians lost 20 million people. And the same thing is happening today. Although the Russians are making somewhat of a stand at Bakhmuten, the Ukrainians may have to temporarily retreat from this area in eastern Ukraine. The Russians, as I said, are really using their men as fodder. And they're not training them all that well. And the Ukrainians who are much better trained in fighting for their homeland are doing quite well. And as I mentioned in an earlier segment that we discussed, it's about time that everyone in the world learns that when you invade a country, whether that be Vietnam by the United States or the British in the American Revolution, eventually you're going to lose. Now, it may take some time, but eventually you're going to lose because the people in that country have more to gain and are more concerned about their own country than you are in terms of invading that much less the cost. And the cost is affecting Vladimir Putin also. You're an historian. You're an academician. You're a teacher. You're a career of teaching. And you're sensitive to what the kids are thinking about this. And it's kind of sophisticated. I think a huge number of people in this country do not understand what's going on in Ukraine. They don't understand the stakes and they don't understand the day-to-day. And my question to you is how about the kids? How about the kids coming out of high school, coming out of college? Do they understand it or have they been distracted by other things that have made them less sensitive to what's going on in Eastern Europe? Well, you know, the way I can answer that is if a kid is in an AP class across the United States, whether that be history or anything else, that kid is probably thinking a great deal about what's happening in the Ukraine. And it's at a pretty high level of understanding. And kids are a function of, you know, who's teaching the kid. And in most cases, you know, teachers are very adept at teaching students. The complexity of the issues is what is really necessary. And let me answer your question by saying a feeling I've had for a long time about teaching is that, you know, teachers, especially high school teachers, should go into the classroom in the field that they majored in. It's not just, it's not enough to have an education degree and learn while you're teaching. I think that, you know, most of the great history teachers that I've come across, professors or teachers, in my life are people who are trained in their subject. And of course, who are, you know, have a kind feeling towards our students. And that's important also. So I think students, by and large in this country, have some sort of concept of the what's happening in the Ukraine. And the students that I have taught in my life would all have, you know, from Berkeley to Putahau to Iowani to University of Hawaii. Most of them would have, you know, a general sense of what's going on and feel one way. And, you know, it comes back to that, you know, that famous concept by John Lennon, Jay, that you, I'm sure will remember, you know, God is a concept by which we measure our pain. Well, you know, the way we measure our pain in the Ukraine is that, you know, it's really all about democracy. And the way you approach, I think, the Ukraine will really indicate where you are about democratic feelings. And, you know, there have been broadcasters on the Fox News that question our need to fight in the Ukraine. And of course, I'm not sure whether some of those broadcasters have a deep feeling about democracy, especially as they try to promote, you know, the Hungarian model of ruling. Tucker Carlson comes to mind. You know, years ago, I went to a legal conference on the West Coast, and I was introduced to a teacher from Columbia University Law School. And I said, what do you teach? He said, I teach torture. What? What did you say? Teach torture? You have a class in school in law school, and it's dedicated to torture. How are your, you know, how are your, the numbers? Oh, they come from miles around. They want to hear what I have to say about torture. Because, you know, at the time, there were issues about waterboarding and the like. And so I asked the same question about Ukraine. If I, if I went to a good high school, advanced progress high school, and I said, I'm going to teach a course in Ukraine. I'm going to do what Timothy Snyder does at Yale, right? He has a whole course all about Ukraine from the beginning to now till the future. And he puts every single lecture on YouTube, by the way. And you can watch it for free any day, all those, you know, dozens of lectures. And he's, you know, you know, who he is, he's brilliant, brilliant, beyond brilliant. And so suppose I set up a course like that in high school or college, you age here. And I said, this is not about torture. It's about Ukraine, which is the, you know, what did you call it, the pain of Ukraine? Oh, really, would anybody sign up? I think you'd get a lot of sign up. And I think that you, especially, you know, kids that are particularly interested in the humanities. And I had mentioned this in an earlier discussion that we had, you know, I used to teach a course at Punahou School called European history through Russian eyes. And, you know, you might want to teach, you know, a generally, a general required course like European history, and teach, you know, and have the class, not just as an elective, but as a required course and focus on the Ukraine as a sort of way of getting at European history in general. And I think that would be a very popular course that especially, you know, because it's so topical. And I think you get at major issues, you know, about why, you know, Vladimir Putin talked about denotcing the denotification in Ukraine when he first started and all those things like that. And, you know, that would lead into discussions of World War Two. And then you, when you focus on World War Two, you'd have to go back and you'd have to go back to the original, not Kiev, but Kiev and Rus. And I think, Jay, it would be a marvelous course. And I would, you know, if you taught it, I would take it. If you taught it, I would take it. How about that? The thing, you know, the thing that interests me is on frontline, you know, make hundreds of wonderful, wonderful documentaries. Their current documentary is called Vladimir Putin and the President. Because actually he's been there since roughly 2000 as the guy running Russia. And he's obviously had contact with a bunch of presidents, most notably Trump. But what you talk about the war, the invasion by Russia of Ukraine, but it isn't really Russia. It's Putin. And he's a psychopath. And he defends himself and justifies himself with points of history, right? You know, history is here to help. That's the name of our show here today. And, you know, sometimes history is here to pervert. And history is here to be rhetoric rather than truth. And so he uses history, but the reality is he's a psychopath. And he's killing those young Russian kids for no, no reason. And he's killing Ukrainians and just trying to destroy their society for no reason, really no reason, and against all the global morality. So I'm just interested in how long he can continue to do. That's my question. One year now, he has not been successful. One year now, he's been criticized all over the world. He is what is generally recognized as a pariah. How much, how much rope has he got left to play? Well, as long as the Russian economy remains somewhat okay. I mean, there are pressures on it and there are always pressures on the Russian economy. And as long as he can convince a certain segment of the population, you know, there are no checks and balances on him whatsoever. So as long as he can keep that control going, the problem will be both from the far right in Russia that wants to accelerate the war and from people who were, you know, voting with their feet, as Lenin said, and leaving, you know, Russia en masse. So at some point, you know, I think that, you know, if this, you know, 300,000 new recruits are not successful, and this, you know, prisoner-led group is not successful also, then he's going to be in real trouble. And I do think with the advent of new tanks coming, as you were mentioning, Jay, that today, both from Russia and, I mean, both from the United States, excuse me, the United States in Germany, after the, you know, President Olaf and President Joe Biden made a deal, you know, with these Abrams tanks, and which will come later, and the Leopard tanks, which are going to come soon, I think the Ukrainians may make a significant thrust into Russian territory, but they have to get to that front line. They have to get to the eastern Donbass region. So, and, you know, one of the interesting things is that, you know, if you, you know, I think it's general dynamics that makes the Abrams tank, and as you were mentioning to me earlier, the interesting thing about the Abrams tank is it goes, it works with jet fuel. So, you have a kind of problem in trying to get to the jet fuel into the tank, and, you know, whereas the Leopard tank just uses diesel fuel, and diesel fuel is all over the place. So, you know, and, you know, one of the things that's kind of interesting about the tanks, from my point of view, is that it's sort of a system in itself, Jay. You have the drones that are the flying objects that point out to the tank commanders where to fire, and, you know, you have people around the tanks trying to protect them with the equivalent of the old World War II bazookas. And, you know, the tank seems to be the sort of mini enclave, and they cost a lot to produce. And, but they seem to be the, and I noticed that general dynamic stock, which makes them, has just went up today. So, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's an interesting course and an interesting development. And, you know, I've always admired General Petraeus as a honorable, thoughtful commander. You know, and he was talking about how we need to, you know, supply the, and most of the American generals say to supply the Ukrainians with what they need, without crossing over that, that red line that will, you know, get Putin pushed in such a corner that he'll resort to using, you know, weapons of mass destruction. Yeah, I was not impressed with the government's reaction to Putin's original threat of nuclear war. I thought he was bluffing, completely bluffing. He wouldn't do that. It would, it would, in your end of his ultimate detriment, and it would be inconsistent with his plans, you know, for Europe and the world. And I think, I think Biden reacted much too fearfully to that by stopping the fighters. Joe Biden stopped the fighters. And that was at the beginning, I guess, in March or so, of last year. So now we had the tanks. Zelensky, with increasing frustration, has been asking for the tanks and explaining in the coming bring offensive by Russia, the tanks are going to be critical. And the US has held it up. And what they said was, oh, gee, we can't send tanks over there because it's too hard to repair them. And we can't train the Ukrainians to use them. And all of that is, you know, it's a complete obstacle to sending it over. So we're not going to do it. And the Germans say, well, if you're not going to do it, why should we do it? And so the whole thing was stuck for weeks, maybe months. And I was again, impressed with Biden's lack of will on this. And it's fearful of something, I don't know what, fearful of the Russians, that it was not persuasive. It was not persuasive that it was hard to maintain an Abrams tank. And furthermore, you know, when they finally started edging into an agreement, the Defense Department said, well, we can't do this right away, you know, this is going to be months or years before we get tank number one into the Ukraine. And that hasn't changed, you know. They still say that. And so when you when you say that the leopard tanks from Germany are going to be in Ukraine before, oh, that's a totally true statement, Carl, long before. Because I think this is, you know, from from the United States point of view, they're going to this administration will break its heels. We won't see any any of the Abrams tanks in Ukraine for quite some time. But on the basis of our statement of intention, Olaf first, what's his name? Schultz, yeah, Olaf Schultz, he'll go along with it. He just wanted to hear somebody say something positive. And that was enough for him, because he's under pressure from all of the Eastern European countries who are worried about Russia's intentions about Putin's intentions. So it's definitely a good thing, you know, that Germany will send the tanks in. I hope there are enough of them. You know, we don't we don't realize how many tanks you need to take command of a battlefield. You know, remember all those? What did you refer to the a certain battle in World War Two, where you know, there were literally thousands of tanks on the battlefield? Well, the Germans, you know, when they were crossing Poland, you know, and they met the Russians, you know, and I think it was 1939, you know, were charging with their, you know, highly mechanized tanks than that. And then Poles came out to meet them with their with their horses. And so it was a foregone conclusion. But I think that the, you know, the British have their Challenger tanks, the French have their AMX. And because of Prime Minister Schultz's commitment to the Leopard tanks, everyone's putting in their tanks, which of course, you know, you have to admire the Ukrainians because they're getting all these tanks, you know, from various countries that they have to train on. And of course, the United States is training Ukrainians on the Abrams. But, you know, they have to I don't think they started doing that yet. Did they? I think they have. But just barely they were training on a Patriot missile last year. The training them on the Patriot missile. Yes, that's true. Yeah, I think and you may be right about that. I'm not sure if they started training on the Abrams, but, you know, the Abrams is supposed to be, you know, like, it's like 70 tons of metal. And it's, you know, it could go like almost 50 miles an hour, which if you think about it, I mean, I, you know, I drive a Camry J and I'm always amazed that if it can get up to 60 or 65, you know, not that I drive that in Hawaii, because there's not many places you could drive that fast. But, but, you know, imagine driving a, you know, 70 million pound, you know, vehicle and going 50 miles an hour, you know, that's, that's quite amazing. But I don't think I think we see tanks in the context of the war movies over the land war in Europe, with tanks on one side of the battlefield and the other side blowing each other up. I mean, it was the subjects of so many movies and so many tanks. But today, between the Abrams one tank and the Leopard two tanks, those guys are using the latest and greatest technology you could imagine. I don't think the Challenger tank is nearly as good, or that there are that many of them that Britain can give. I think it's like a dozen or 13 or 14, it's not much. But even some, and everybody is sort of chipping in. Bottom line, though, is that the Leopard tank highly advanced. And as you were saying, the Abrams tank has every technology you can imagine, including, you know, using drones to identify targets. So all of that could make a big difference. I'm sure the Russians have put in a fair amount of technology in their tanks. But I don't think their tanks are as good as either the Leopard or the Abrams. And this, this ground war will, I'm sure Zelensky's right, this ground war, this ring will have a huge effect on the outcome. Don't you agree? I do agree. And, you know, I was thinking about your early question about Vladimir Putin and, you know, what I have noticed in the press account, you know, even that there's growing dissatisfaction in Russia with this war, because, you know, you just, you know, you know, if you're sitting around Russia and you realize that, you know, this is this war that, you know, people are being killed by the tens of thousands, you know, in the Ukraine. And, you know, the question is always like during the Vietnam War in our own country is, what do we have to gain? I mean, why is this valuable that we're, you know, we're, I mean, Putin, you know, is talking about the Nazis in the Ukraine. And we talked about the domino theory. And, you know, both were doctrines, which were largely wrong. I mean, you know, too bad we didn't know the antipathy between the Vietnamese and the Chinese, you know, and the antipathy between, you know, the Chinese and the Russians, you know. So this is, this is, you know, this is, you know, it's a theory. And, you know, Vladimir Putin, the differences that I think people believed in the domino theory in the United States of the highest levels of government, including LBJ. But Vladimir Putin must not, I mean, he must know that this is all false. Isn't he referring erroneously to Stalin's destruction of Ukraine in 1933? You know, from a historical point of view, it's hard to say whether the average Russian knows the story. But assuming they knew Russian history, they might refer back to what happened in 1933. How Stalin effectively destroyed Ukraine. Does this play, do you think, is this relevant in today's times? That's interesting. You know, I think it's, you know, you know, collectivization was something that just, you know, brutalized the entire Ukraine and many people died because of it. You know, I don't know, 30, yeah, millions of people died because of collectivization. The question is, I think it might be a little bit more modern in the sense that the Ukrainians played, you know, some Ukrainians played a very negative role during World War II. And did were the people who were, you know, the Ukrainian guards at concentration camps, there were Ukrainians who supported the Nazi movement. You know, so that's all part of this, you know, and, you know, there certainly were people in Ukraine. I mean, when forced between Stalin and Hitler, and this is where your wonderful allusion to the collectivization process, I mean, you know, if you're a Ukrainian citizen and you have suffered under collectivization and atrocities that Stalin committed and someone else comes, you know, moving into your country, I mean, you know, it seems like a natural no matter who it is until they find out about the atrocities of the Nazis, too, that you go with the other person that was attacking Joseph Stalin. So that makes sense. And but I mean, of course, you know, the the fallacy of all this is that Ukraine is still a democratic country. And, you know, President Zelensky said I'm up for reelection and I'm, you know, we have to go through the election process, war or no war. And I mean, that's what we did during, you know, World War Two and during World War One. We had free and fair elections. Well, you got to hand them, you got to give them credit because the country is being destroyed around him. You wonder about infrastructure, government buildings, communications, you know, all of that. And you got to give them credit, too, dealing with a certain level of corruption and espionage by his own people. It's really, you know, every issue you could imagine is surrounding Zelensky and still he persists and still he leads and still he is iconic to the Ukrainian people in Ukraine and outside of Ukraine. He is an absolute hero, a leader of a major magnitude. And it's all, you know, I don't want to say it's all about him. In Russia, it's all about Putin. But in Ukraine, it's largely about his lead about Zelensky's leadership. And, you know, you know, Zelensky also, I mean, I agree with you, the man is heroic. And one must remember that during the during World War Two, we as a territory here in Hawaii, we were under martial law and, you know, very strict guidelines. And one must remember that Japanese Americans who were Americans and loyal to their country were locked up in concentration camps. And, you know, that's that's really abysmal. And Zelensky has not done this. And I think it's important in terms of the fallacy of of Vladimir Putin to point out that, you know, the leader of the Ukraine is of Jewish ancestry. And so, you know, this notion of Ukraine has some sort of Nazi element is just the most absurd concept that one could ever come across. And, you know, it's just it's just really it's really interesting. And I also think that, you know, his heritage is interesting because of, you know, he was a comedian and actor. And this was, you know, this traditionally both in the Ukraine and in Russia was an open avenue for Jews. You know, this is one way one area that that Jews were able to, you know, experience life. And of course, there has always been, you know, a great deal of anti-Semitism in Russia. And the word pogrom comes from Russia, not from Nazi Germany. So, you know, but, but, you know, you know, I think we, Jay, you and I are ending on a great note because we're both very optimistic about well, we're not we're not necessarily ending nor are we necessarily optimistic. But let me let me say that there is a fair amount of public conversation about, quote, winning and quote, about having Zelensky and the Ukrainians win. I mean, I think most most, you know, most people who discuss it feel that, you know, he might just very well do it. And he's going to need help from the U.S. But he might very well do it. Now, my question to you, this is not an easy question, Carl. Let it be said, I never like to ask easy questions. What does winning look like? But I mean, winning could happen with these leopard two tanks and the Abrams one tank, you know, with continuing support and with the the the the the strangulation of the sanctions, if that ever really happens the way we want, we could win the I mean, we and the Ukrainians could win. And that would be a blessing for really all mankind. But, query, what does it look like? That's, you know, Jay, that's a that's a wonderful question. And I think, you know, I have to answer with President Zelensky's answer, that is, Russians must be pushed off of Ukrainian territory in total. You know, it's not just, you know, they're not going to make the the only solution, I think, so that no one will act like Vladimir Putin again in Russia is to push the Russians out of the Ukraine completely like the Afghanis did with the Russians, you know, they just kick them out. And, you know, the Russians had to suffer their losses. And, of course, you know, that was a tremendous loss for Soviet leaders. And this is this is what has to happen. Now, the thing that we have not discussed, which you have, you know, brought up really well, Jay, is then there needs to be a Marshall plan type European and American Marshall plan to help the Ukrainians rebuild because that's I mean, when you're not in fighting mode anymore, you're going to have to rebuild. And I think, you know, I think we should be thinking about that because I have a lot of faith in the Ukrainian army and and also in, you know, the people who have volunteered like the Abraham Lincoln Brigade in Spain to come and fight for the Ukrainians for democracy. But I mean, you know, this is the this is the fight for democracy across the world. And it's, you know, the other, you know, kind of component here is when what will India and the leaders in India and China do? You know, are they counseling Vladimir Putin to to get out at some point? Because, of course, they're the two mating two remaining training trading partners trading T. R. A. D. I. N. G. I'm trading partners with with Russia. And I think that's that's also a critical element of this, you know, the famous historian from University of Washington, Donald Treadgold always was very interested in the China Russia US arrangement. And of course, the master to that was Henry Kissinger. You know, you evoke memories, not that I was there, of Yalta and of, you know, the leaders of the Western world sitting there thinking, what are we going to do after the war? How are we going to finish the job? And what is it going to look like? And I don't know if Biden's doing that, but it's certainly a meeting with Modi. And for that, in fact, for that matter with Xi Jinping, would be useful to say, look, you know, this isn't going well for anybody, why don't we just talk about how we can, you know, work the end of it in your interest? And that would that would really help bring things together, just like you also help. The other thing, you know, is you talk about the right wing in Russia who supports Putin. I think that's probably a fiction. Whoever supports Putin in Russia is doing it because Putin insists on it. And, you know, the the punishment for not supporting him may be very draconian. And so I guess the end of it is, I'm just guessing here, and extending your answer, if I may. First of all, you get back to the line, the Dumbass line, Eastern line, and you fortify the line. And I don't mean with World War I fortifications, I mean, electronic fortifications and, you know, and, you know, areas of military camps and the like, that would, you know, operate those electronic fortifications. And two, you know, you, you make very sure that you watch them like a hawk. And you watch them not only on the line, but you watch them inside Russia, as we do as the Ukrainians do, to make sure they're not building up troops again, as they did in, you know, in the early part of 2022. And that's the first thing. And the second thing is, and you're right, we have covered it here on Sync Tech, talked to architects and engineers and planners all over the world. And you organize a rebuilding of a country which has been largely destroyed. And you make it better. And you make the world adopted, you know, and give it love. And make it sort of the world's child, if you will, and make a better Ukraine. The people will love it. They'll respond to that. And I guess the last question is the Yalta question. What do you do with Russia? What do you do with Putin? What do you do with the people who left Russia, you know, the middle class, the leader, the intelligentsia who left? You bring them back? Do you try to bring them back? Does he try to bring them back? And what do you do with the Russian economy that you've damaged by the sanctions? I mean, I think all of this has to be considered. And it hasn't been won. It may not be won, God forbid. But if it is won, we should be ready. We should be ready for what happens afterward. You know, that's really very thoughtful thinking about what's going to happen after everything is resolved. Hopefully, you know, this means that, you know, we go to the borders and then we have guarded borders. I think really one outcome must be that Ukraine must be allowed to join NATO. And then if there's any other incursion, all bets are off with Russia. And I think that's really, that's really great. And you know, I want to go back because this is a show about history. And I really, you mentioned something, Jay, that really struck me. And you know, Vladimir Putin, you know, uses the reference Peter the Great or in Russian, as we say, Piotr Viziki. And you know, he likes Peter the Great because Peter the Great expanded Russia in the Baltic at the expense of the Swedes, you know, winning the Battle of Poltava in 1709. And Russians expanded to the south and tried to beat back the Turks and weren't successful, but then Catherine the Great did. And so expanded towards the Black Sea. So, you know, this is an expansionist ideology. And I think there is a fringe, Jay, that does support Putin because they're Russian nationalists that want to expand their country. And there, you know, every country has their loony tunes. And of course, some of ours are in Congress now, in the House. And, you know, they're really, they're really out there. But, you know, the things that they believe in that are just really odd and strange. But in any case, I think there are people in Russia that feel the same way, you know, they believe in the Great. Even, you know, when I was talking to a friend of mine years ago in Russia, you know, he made his fist like this, which is a kulak, the fist. And he said, he said, you will never defeat the Soviet man. Well, the Soviet man was defeated in terms of its ideology. But I mean, some people believe in this, I think a great deal. I think many Russians believe in protecting their own territory. But I think you're great. The great masses do not want to see Russia as the aggressor. I mean, you know, this is a civilized country that, you know, has been brought into the West by Peter the Great many centuries ago. And they are seeing what's happening. You know, the last thing, Jay, that I want to say about your, this question is, you know, eventually the truth, you can't block the truth from appearing when people come back and body bags and, you know, guys come home from the front and spill their guts. I mean, it's the same with the Vietnam War. I mean, you know, the news got out. Now, we have a free press, but they don't have a free press. But, you know, eventually this news gets back to the people. And then Vladimir Putin is in trouble. Yeah. Well, history is here to help for sure. And I'm so glad you mentioned what was it, Peter the Great. But let me tell you that in clearing the way to the Baltic, he was clearing out the Vikings, because the Vikings were present in this whole area. And in fact, are you ready, Carl? Vladimir is taken off a Viking name. I'm serious. And this is in, you know, before the year 1000 or so, but they had a lot of influence in developing to the first place. And they were pretty warlike, nice guys now, but they were pretty warlike then. And so, you know, we have a history of war, of, you know, of trouble, of invasions and the like. We've got to clear that up. We've got to make the average Russian understand that if they had spent the Cold War building an economy, if they had spent the Cold War relating to the West, instead of making war on the West, which is what they were doing, and which Putin does every day, see that front line movie, you'll see what I mean. They would be a great nation. And they can still be a great nation. They have got to understand that and they've got to get by his propaganda about it. Well, thank you so much, Carl. Great to talk to you. We could go on. And I really love these conversations and we'll do it again in two weeks. Okay? Thank you, Jay. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktecawaii.com. Mahalo.