 Hi everyone, welcome to episode 143 of the civil engineering podcast. This is the first podcast that's dedicated to helping civil engineers around the world succeed both professionally and personally. I'm excited to be here with you today and bringing on board on to the civil engineering conversation, Will Buckby, who is a contracts and projects lawyer with Beal and Co out of the UK. And he's going to be talking with us about COVID-19 and the impact that that's having on the construction and engineering consultancy industries and what you need to be doing as a project professional to make sure that the contracts that you are involved in and the projects that your company are going to be involved in are fit for purpose and that everything is moving along according to whatever the current situation and plans maybe that are in place across the industry in as we respond to COVID-19 will also be unpacking in the conversation, which I think is very useful. Some things to be thinking about both with regards to contracts that you may have already underway or in flight, but what you need to be thinking about and either the proposals that you're putting together or contracts that you may be maybe becoming involved with in the in the months and probably years ahead as we move forward. And there's some really good conversation and some great three great points that we'll make specifically around the issue of force majeure and contracts, which many of you have heard that term before will impacts it for us in this episode and also gives some really great takeaways that all of us need to be thinking about not just our council within our firms, but each of us again as project professionals. So who am I? Well, as a reminder, I'm Chris Knudson, I'm a project professional by chartered professional engineer and program manager with about 27 years of experience in the AEC industry, a lot of it in the defense infrastructure. And I'm coming to you from the United Kingdom. So a little bit about will. I think it's always useful to understand who we're going to talk with today. And wills of contracts and advisory lawyer specializes in development, construction and engineering matters, particularly while here in the UK, but also Middle East and Africa. Highly experienced advising on standard form contracts that include FITIC and EDF as well as bespoke construction contracts, professional appointments, collateral warranties and a number of other aspects related to project consultancy and construction. He's been involved a lot of major construction projects, both here in the UK as well as around the world. Some of the ones that may be more notable that that many of you have heard of would have been the cross rail here in the UK, which is one of Europe's largest transportation projects still ongoing. He was involved in some of the procurement strategies for the shard in London, involved in some major oil and gas projects down in the Middle East, as well as transportation projects and other facility works down in Africa. So wills, he has a monthly section, the Lexis-Nexis Construction Law Journal, and as a regular speaker on matters related to the procurement law and professional services in the engineering and construction arenas. So really excited to have Will on here. I think you're going to listen to this episode come away with a lot of key things to be thinking about, especially in this new world that we're living in. So without further ado, let's get with Will Buckley and get right into the civil engineering conversation. One ounce time for our civil engineering conversation and I'm here with Will. Will, welcome to the Civil Engineering Podcast. How are you today? I'm well, thank you. Good morning. Yeah, yeah, it's great to be here. We're both of us are coming to all of you from the UK. We're today, as I look out my window, it's nice and sunny. So despite the fact that our conversation today is going to be around a bit of a dark cloud that's descended around the planet, we at least here today have some sun in the sky to bring a little bit of joy. And in today's conversation, we're going to be talking about the topic that is front and foremost on a lot of the minds, probably every mind of any professional who's involved in the architectural engineering construction industry. And that's COVID-19 and the impact that's going to have on their business and their way of life. And well, I'm glad that we were able to get you on to the show. I had an opportunity to attend one of your webinars here just recently about COVID-19 response in the engineering and construction industry. And that was the reason why I really wanted to get you on the show because I felt that that was really good information that was going to be useful for all of our listeners. So let's just jump into this because I think this is certainly something that's really hitting a lot of the engineering, architectural engineering consultants in the construction industry. And I'd like to see if you could just maybe give us a kind of a high level overview of what this impact is that COVID-19 is having on the construction market overall. Yeah, we're clearly the COVID-19 is having a significant impact on all walks of life, construction in particular. Just looking at the UK, consultants, professionals are now working from home and asking the big question, should we, can we go on site? Should we be going on site and fulfilling our duties? Will our services continue? Will we continue with our supervision services? Will we continue with our design duties? What's going to happen with our projects? I think when COVID-19 initially properly arrived here in the UK, I think there was a huge amount of uncertainty as to what the current position is. On the 23rd of March, Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister, put us all, as you know, on lockdown. And there was a big question as to what that means for the construction sector. He effectively introduced only essential travel for the key workers, so a ban on anything else. So the big question to the construction sector is what does that mean for us? Will sites stay open? Will construction projects continue? And it wasn't until, I think, the next day that the housing minister issued a tweet, a typical way of communicating government policy these days, to say that construction sites can continue and should continue. So following that, contractors and employers have taken a step back and I think now are in a much better position to assess what has happened and decide whether sites remain open. MACE, in particular, and I mentioned them because they've been quite vocal in the public in relation to how they are going to approach this, suspended all projects initially in order to assess the current position. ISG, a big contractor here in the UK, announced that it was suspending all construction projects. And I think since then, the industry have looked at health and safety and whether construction projects can continue. Health and safety is, of course, paramount. Every employer must ensure the health and safety of their staff, of their supply chain, of the individuals they work with as well. And following that assessment, following an assessment of the impact of COVID-19, I think the current position is some construction projects are continuing and some are on hold. And the test should be, and this is very important, if you, as an employer, either the owner of the project, the contractor, the consultant, if you can guarantee the health and safety and well-being of your staff, your supply chain, and those who you work with, then you can continue working. However, if you can't, then I think the industry's position, and certainly my advice as a legal advisor to our clients is that you should not work and that projects should be put on hold or assessed as to how projects and work can continue safely. There's been a fair amount of industry guidance on this. The Construction Leadership Council has issued three versions of site operating procedures, dealing with the likes of social distancing, hygiene, site meetings, and how contractors, consultants should operate. We're also saying if you can't comply with that guidance, then you should also seriously consider whether you should continue working on site. Will, in general, most in the industry understand the basics of what safety looks like from a health and safety standpoint. With these directives that are coming out, is it generally understood what a COVID-19 safe job site is going to look like? And obviously there's construction sites and then we have office operations as well with a lot of engineering design consultancies that have now been put into a different working environment. So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts from a really legal advisory standpoint of what constitutes, if I'm running a company, what constitutes a safe job site for my operations? So I think it's important to distinguish between the professionals, the engineers, the architects and site work because clearly, like yourself, like me, we can work to a large extent from home and technology has made that considerably easier. And I think the majority of, if not all, consultants are not traveling to work, are working from home. And that is the right thing to do as your legal advisor for professionals who can do that. The Prime Minister has said, if you can work from home, you should. And that is the best way to ensure the health and safety of your staff. If you are required to go into the office, then employers must ensure that public health guidance is followed. And that is avoiding meetings where possible, making sure social distancing is taken place within the office. Ensuring hygiene standards are of an exceptional level. These are all obvious comments that governments are talking about. And I think that's easy for the professionals, as I mentioned. Yeah, absolutely. For the contractors or the consultants who are going on site. And I think we spoke a week or two back when you were just returned from a visit. It is absolutely vital, again, that employers ensure that public health guidance is being followed. That construction leadership councils, site operating procedures are being followed. And if there's any doubt that they are not, then I think the employers, senior managers, need to make a very difficult but right decision and stop and prevent their staff from being in a situation where they are at risk of contracting the virus. And it requires some difficult decisions. Because at the end of the day, there are projects to deliver. There are contracts to perform. But health and safety must come first. And I think contractors and employers are in a much better position now than they were on the 23rd of March when the Prime Minister's announcement for lockdown was made, followed by the tweet I mentioned earlier. They've taken a step back. They have looked at ways of delivering the projects differently so that they can comply with the social distancing rules, the construction leadership councils guidance. For example, we've all seen on social media, kitchens having chairs removed around tables so that only two people can sit around a table, site meetings where people are standing, meters apart from each other, and certain work that does require close contact at the current time, if possible, not taking place. So I think by and large, that should be happening and I hope on the majority of construction sites. There are clear guidance by public health and the construction leadership council that should be followed. OK, all right. No, that's good. And again, for listeners, I think what we all understand right now, just as you've already put out, Will, that where we are today as we record this podcast versus where we were back on the 23rd of March, and quite frankly, where we probably will be at the end of the month of April of 2020, are going to be in different locations as all of us, as the governments understand how to approach it and how industry puts out its guidance to it. So I just would caution listeners to stay up to date on the current information that's coming out. And just like you said, I mean, for my own professional background, people first. So there's always a need to make sure that you're looking at your staff and ensuring that the staff's health and safety is permanent as you walk through this. Now, of course, there could be situations. And I'm going to kind of move things maybe a little bit from talking about impact on the construction market to let's start talking a little bit about maybe potential impacts on contracts. Because you've already got this up that even though we're in this different arena where we're having kind of the friction of reality playing into this with not being able to do meetings in the same location. And although we have technology sometimes that creates additional time impacts that can knock on into the work that we're actually doing delivering projects. I think everybody listening to this understands and knows what force majeure is. But what happens if you found yourself on the 23rd of March in a contract that didn't have that kind of a clause? I'm kind of curious to hear what avenues might exist for an engineering consultancy to deal with that situation that they're in. What are the legal ramifications of that? Yeah, so there's clearly consequences. There's inability to deliver services and works. There's going to be delay. There's going to be cost overruns. And the obvious reasons for those consequences could be unable to perform because of a threat to health and safety. New site operating procedures are resulting in additional cost, additional time in delivery. Late delivery of supplies due to poor transport connections, but also warehouses eclosing or huge demand in other areas, such as for the NHS. So one has to look at their contract to ascertain what relief they have. And that is absolutely important. It's important because under English law, there isn't a concept of force majeure. That the common law outside of the contract does not imply force majeure into your contract. So you are unable to rely on force majeure unless it's written in your contract and describes what force majeure is. And some contracts might just say force majeure, which in itself creates some uncertainty because it is not a recognised term. It's French and it's written into their civil code and used elsewhere. But the definition if it is in your contract would typically say that if there is a circumstance, the neither party could prevent and which was outside of their reasonable control or contemplation, then they would obtain relief in the performance of their duties. And an extension of time if your services are bound by time requirements. So for a professional, the first step because of COVID-19 is to pick up your contract and see if you have a force majeure clause. Most bespoke contracts will have it, I think, these days. A lot of the standard form contracts will have it. And if there is a force majeure clause in there, it is likely that you are relieved from your obligations because of the virus. It's unlikely that you are going to be able to claim additional money. But you are likely to obtain relief from delivery and an extension of time in the circumstance. But it's not just a force majeure clause that one should focus on. There has been a huge amount of chatter on social media, articles written by external lawyers at law firms on force majeure. That is only part of the contract that needs to be looked at. Professionals need to look at whether they're entitled to additional fees because of additional work, because of delay. And hopefully the variation provisions will entitle them to claim additional fees in these circumstances. And they also should be looking at the extension of time clause as well to see if they can obtain an extension of time as well as additional fees because of COVID-19. And most bespoke forms will allow that. Every contract is different, but most should. And certainly the standard industry forms, such as FIDIC and the ACE, the UK Consultant Engineer, its standard form that will entitle you to time and money. OK, all right. So to say everyone's talking about force majeure. And we, certainly in the UK, need to be very careful because it's not implied into the contract. So you need to pick up your contract and look what avenues you've got in the circumstances. OK, all right, very important. And by the time most of the people are listening to this, if they're in contracts, I would have hoped that they've already gone through and done this, but certainly if you haven't, it's something that needs to be looked after. Kind of in the same vein, as we look at whatever the new normal is going to be once we're moved beyond the current situation we're in right now, do you see changes coming to standard form contracts or maybe even non-standard form contracts is specifically related to these types of situations with the thought process that now that we've experienced it's likely to happen again. Yeah, absolutely. It's not just about it's likely to happen again. Unfortunately, research, the press are saying the current circumstances are going to go on for an extended period, how long we don't know. So if you are negotiating a contract now or you haven't signed yet, I think it is vital that you include a clause or a series of clauses providing you with remedies in the current circumstances. So the three buckets, I suppose, that I just mentioned, drafting in relation to force major, explaining what force major is, explaining that you get really bucket one. Bucket two, an extension of time because of COVID-19 and additional cost because of COVID-19. The way I've tended to describe the circumstance is an epidemic, a pandemic, including coronavirus, COVID-19, but also the immediate effects thereafter because it might be declared by the World Health Organization that it is no longer a pandemic. But the consequences may still exist that it is difficult to get onto site. Social distancing may be operated in your jurisdiction after the event. There may be time and delay to get back on to site or when you need to restart your services after the pandemic. So it's important that it's widely defined. I also think that all engineers should be looking at their standard terms of business, their day one terms, their standard consultancy fee proposal that attaches terms. They should be looking at that and amending them so that they deal with the circumstances, the three buckets that I've just mentioned. And moving forward, I think it's one of those areas that needs to go into the must haves, the red flags. If I was carrying out a contract review, there isn't relief because of coronavirus, COVID-19. It's one of those important clauses now that must be included in all appointments. And thus far, the market has reacted to that. And when I've been advising professionals, engineers on that clause, there generally hasn't been that much kickback by the employers. I don't mean to be wrong for them to do that. We are getting those clauses in. If there is going to be a debate, it's whether the consultant gets money in addition to the relief forming obligations and the delay. And that is an area that is debated in negotiations. But most of the time, it is time and money. Yeah, OK. So that's very good. And I like the way that you've been that into the three different buckets. For those that are listening, the beauty of the podcast is you can hit Rewind and go back. And that may be, I think, really an important segment of the show is talking around that. Because especially in the consultancy arena, if we're already in flight on a contract, the terms and conditions that are already been placed in, you've built up your fee proposal was based off of a certain reality that now has changed. I know just recently, in fact, as we record this, in the midst of a couple of different proposal developments that are going on, that the requests for proposal, invitations of tender did not have anything, any language related to COVID-19. There's been no amendments that have been sent out. And so as we're developing our proposals and looking at the terms and conditions, this has now become very forefront as to, OK, we are going to have to be very clear on assumptions and exclusions as we develop this in our tender responses and our proposal submittals so that it's clearly understandable to the client, to the employer, that we haven't priced or established anything COVID in the stipulate. That's a big assumption, I think, as we know now that potentially we could be operating in this kind of this new situation that we find ourselves in, some semblance of that for months to come, certainly for months to come. So again, I think for all of our listeners on here, very important to understand your contract terms and conditions, get into that, and then considering how that's going to knock on into proposal development that you're maybe working on right now today, or that you're going to be looking at having to work on in the upcoming futures. Can I add one other thing, which is important, particularly with international projects? And I've seen this a lot in the last week or so, with professionals who are on site, abroad outside of their home country, where there are expats in Africa, in the Middle East, where there has been, or will be shortly, particularly Africa, because as of today, it's behind the curve. The decision from the business is to get their staff home. And that's fine, in theory, providing also one can get around the logistical issues with air travel, but in relation to the contract, most contracts that I've seen do not deal with the associated costs and consequences arising out of that. So the consultant might be entitled to an extension of time. If lucky, it might be in terms of traditional fees, but does that include extracting its staff at huge expense? Who takes that risk? Who prices for that? It's also a difficult assessment when you take Africa, for example, in many parts of Africa, either the COVID-19 cases are very low, and in some countries, there hasn't been many, if any, reported. At that point in time, the local markets aren't operating social distancing or isolation or leaving towns and cities. So why should the international consultant who is working there, why adopt a different approach? And I've raised this because of, I expect, a large number of listeners across the globe working to also think about how that's going to be drafted, how that's going to be priced for. It's probably right now to make provisions or drafting in contracts dealing with that exact circumstance. So in the fee schedule, provide a statement to say, if, as a result of a force mishore or coronavirus COVID-19, it is decided that staff need to leave the country. This is the consequence. This is what's going to happen with the fees. And it's a new area of negotiation because... I know, you're right. But it's definitely something that needs to be considered. Yeah, that's actually a really good point, Will. And it may also knock on into your company and how it sets up different types of insurance arrangements as well for expat staff. Yes, because there's certainly companies out there that specialize in extraction of people for health issues or whatever it may be. And so that may be an entire new area that we'll look at. Certainly on international jobs, or you have expats that are physically there, what are the parameters and the kind of the response plans that you have in place to get them out in addition to how that's going to play out in the contractual terms and conditions? So a really, really good point. A couple more questions. This is really a fast answer. I really appreciate your time on this. We've talked a lot about now about, you know, the force majeure, the three different buckets and the kind of the buckets of approach as we move towards that. This may be linked to what we've already talked about, but I'm just gonna ask it straight out again because we've talked around it, but I haven't really just nailed it. What should someone do if the site that they're working on turns up closed so the employer or the client just says, that's it, we're closing the site off you go. What are there, you know, have we already kind of talked through that or do you think that there's some additional considerations that need to be taken into in that kind of situation? So the first point, and I probably should have mentioned this earlier is dialogue and obvious comments is absolutely key. We're seeing where there has been closure almost a contract being left in the drawer and almost a gentleman's agreement amongst the professionals and the contractor about what's going to happen. Stay away, some commitment from the employer that we'll look at restarting this as soon as possible, we'll look at your cost, we'll look at time and money. And to a large extent, that's a positive dialogue is absolutely key. And if there are any discussions around that, make sure, again, another obvious comment, you document these discussions. And as a lawyer, the amount of times that the problems come to us and there's very little evidence, hard evidence of meeting no telephone notes to document what has been agreed or promised so that you can hopefully rely on that moving forward. But you must go to your contract and you need to follow the mechanisms there under. So that might include a notice and it's obvious but the project is going to be in delay now. I'm going to incur additional fees. I'm not going to meet the key dates in my contract. So here is a notice setting out the consequences and you are right to provide those notices in order to protect your position. The majority of contracts will give you relief in those circumstances. Relief in terms of performance, relief in terms of program obligations that they also are likely to, as I've said, give you additional costs but pick up the contract, file the correct notices. That might be a warning notice, that might be a notice within a certain timescale in order to claim additional time and additional money. It's vital that you comply with those notices because if you don't, it is possible you'll lose any entitlement or end up in a scrap further down the line. He said, she said, and there is a vacuum as to the current position and that tends to lead to disputes which you want to avoid. So again, pick up the contract, follow your notices, provide your notices. Okay, all right, well, thank you for that. So I've got one last question here and this is, I don't know if this is necessarily to completely out their question, but again, as we're starting to look at, we are where we are now, things are going to move on. We're gonna get into a different type of new normal. But do you see any kind of an impact and if so, what is that impact gonna be on the judicial and legal system, specifically with regards to construction cases but maybe just in general, they're gonna be delays in this, is it gonna take longer to resolve issues just because of where we're at? Yeah, so it's early days, but even in a short time scale since the lockdown, a fair amount has happened in terms of the legal system. We are all working from home which means for disputes and the dispute process, it is not as easy to convene pre-action protocol meetings, settlement meetings, mediation and also clearly court hearings. So a number of the cases that we have in the office have been delayed. Delayed because we're unable to meet to have a mediation. The mediation might have happened at our offices, our offices are shut. So that needs to be rearranged and I'll come on to that in a minute. Unable to file documents as part of the dispute process because they're on site, they're in the office and we're working from home. There has been delay clearly, but we are starting to see the legal system become modern in its approach. And my firm has hosted a number of mediations, settlement meetings already, using Zoom with some success. You need a good leader of that meeting, of that mediation in order to direct and also work the technology which is a challenge for some of us. So technology is coming to the fore. I'm aware of some hearings in front of a judge taking place using technology. So we're getting there and the general view is where there is an absolute need for a hearing, for a settlement meeting, it will still take place using technology. And I think over time it will become near the new normal or near to that. We have the technology to do it. What we're also seeing, and this is important for the consultants who might owe money or are in a dispute is adjudication taking more and more adjudications in the UK. So for those who are not aware of the adjudication process in the UK, it's a statutory process that all those involved in the construction sector have a right to, it's a fast track dispute resolution process within about 28 days from submission of your claim to a decision by an adjudicator. A lot of the hearings are, so a lot of the decisions are done without hearings and on paper, and it's cheaper, it's fast track. It's sometimes a bit quick and dirty, but it's fantastic for payment matters. We are seeing an uptick in adjudications because the settlement meetings, the hearings courts aren't taking place, but also some organisations are taking advantage of the current circumstance, knowing that it will be very difficult for a recipient of a claim in an adjudication to get their act together, find the documents and respond within 28 days. And what is also interesting is that there has already been a court case on this in the UK, and generally the circumstances are not a defence. You are likely to be able to get extensions of time if you plead that and you do it in a reasonable manner. However, however, it is not a defence. So what I say to the listeners is make sure your house is in order. If there are any matters that you think are at risk, be ready and look out for that. Okay, all right, good insight. Well, thank you very much. The main segment of the show is going to come to an end here, but this has been really useful information. I appreciate it. And Will is going to stick around for the hot seat segment. All right, so we're back and it's now time for the senior hot seat segment with Will Buckby. Will, let's get into this. We're going to get going right away. Yeah, first question at you is a lot of people have rituals that they practice each day. These may be things like, you know, going to the hot seat segment, but I think it's going to be a good thing to do. It's going to be a good thing to do. I think it's going to be a good thing to do. These may be things like, you know, going to the gym in the morning, going for a walk, you know, could be reading a book, something like that they do every day. And they do that because they see that as a way of being able to keep the saw sharp and to be professionally and personally benefited from that. So I'd be curious to hear, do you have any rituals that you follow each day? Yes, so, yeah, as a lawyer, I'm fortunate to be busy and the hours tend to be quite lengthy at times. But I think for me, what's really important is in the morning, I ensure that I spend time before I leave the office with my two children in order to keep sane but also spend time with them and watch them grow up. That starts my day off. In the current climate, walking, which I expect what everyone else is doing, but I make sure towards the end of the day, in addition to chasing my two children around in the morning, I will do a long walk before sundown in order to escape the intensity of the day and also to escape the children. Just a nice counter ritual to the first one in the morning. That's awesome. Well, we'll come along in the same vein for personal professional development. I'd be curious to know if there's, you know, let me see, right behind you, there's lots of books. We talked about that just before the podcast today, but I'd be curious to know is there one, maybe even two books that you would find that you would recommend to others to read or maybe that you'd even give us a gift. Two books that have had a really large impact on you personally or professionally. Okay, so professionally, without a doubt, has to be a book called Professional Services Agreements by Rachel Barnes, who is a retired partner of Bieland Co. And that book deals with the nuts of bolts of professional services agreements. And it is described in a way that isn't over over legalistic. It's very commercial and very practical. So at the start of my career or my early days of Bieland Co., that was my Bible. And it is still on my desk in the office. And I turn to it very regularly. So I would recommend that to anyone with an interest in the legal aspects of consultancy agreements or as a resource for when you're negotiating an appointment and you need some guidance, you need a steer. I should add, and I haven't chosen this book for this session, for this reason, but I'm updating that text currently. So it is brought to the current day to reflect legal developments with the likes of BIM and the hardening contractual market, perhaps of drafting in relation to coronavirus recovery 19. But that has been my comfort blanket for many years. So professionally, Rachel Barnes is a book on professional services agreements. Personally, I'm a fan and many people aren't of Richard Branson. And I enjoy reading his short books and also his sticker hardbacks just on his business decisions, just on the exciting adventures that he's been on. Because I enjoy his entrepreneurism and his excitement about life. And the legal profession at the end of the day is still a business. And I get lots of personal and professional, I wouldn't say ideas, but drivers from Richard Branson. So I'm currently reading one of his books. Okay, that's fabulous. In fact, I think I'm going to make notes on the professional services contract. That may be a book that I'm going to be buying here shortly. Or maybe I should wait for you to get the edits done on the next version. That's fabulous. All right, I've got one more question for you. We call it the civil engineering career elevator advice question. So if you got into an elevator with an engineer, of course, maintaining social distancing and all that, all those aspects, of course with it. But you had 30 to 40 seconds to give that, to give that person some advice, career advice. What would that career advice be? Well, as a lawyer, I'd have to have a legal, legal, legal slant, legal slant on it. But I would, I would say, don't leave the contract in the, in the drawer. Yeah. It's negotiated. It's prepared. It's signed for a reason. And so, so if you are, if you are at the forefront of a project and delivering services, perhaps on a big ticket project or whatever, is make sure that you at least understand, understand your contract. Two examples I give regularly around payment. Make sure you know your payment process. Make sure you know when you need to submit invoices and in what format, because cash is key, particularly in the current, the current climate. Make sure you know your variation process. Put your correct notices in. Use your contract. It's there for a reason. And those who operate their contract, most of the time are better off. So that, that, that, that's, that's my, my advice, my career advice. Don't leave the contract in the drawer. That's great advice. Will, I appreciate that very much. Thanks a lot for joining me today. I really, really appreciate it. Again, this has been great information and looking forward to getting this out and letting the listeners be able to get their, get their ears on it. Just one final, one final note here is, you know, working, anyone that's been listening today, where, where can they get in contact with you and learn more about the work that you do with. Okay. So, um, we have offices in UK, London, Bristol, Ireland and the Middle East. Um, but they can get in contact with me. Um, my, my email address is W. Buck B B U C K B Y. Okay. Wonderful. Wonderful. And we'll have, we'll have, um, all those details in the show notes for today's shows, uh, for today's show. Ladies and gentlemen, so you can get, you can get your hands on that information. Well, thank you very much again. Um, stay safe. All the best to you and your family. And, uh, we'll be back in touch again real soon. I'm sure the same to thank you very much. So that was a really good conversation. I just, uh, completed there with Will Buck B. Hope you enjoyed it and got some really key items for you to take away with regards to the projects and the contracts that you have underway and the ones that you're going to be developing and put it in place in the months and years ahead. Again, great, great points. And if you want to get all the show notes, uh, links to some of the books and, uh, the other references that we'll brought up during the, uh, during the course of the interview, today, please go over to civilengineeringpodcast.com. Look for episode 143 and you'll find all the different details for today's show as well as go there and you can get access to all the other shows that we've gotten the library there along with the details that can come up with all that. So I really hope you enjoyed it again today. Look forward to being with you on a podcast here in the future. And until then, I wish you all the best in your civil engineering endeavors.