 Fen ydych chi'n ffordd ar gyfer yr ysgol. Mae'n gweithio'r cyfan a gwneud mewn gweithio gw situationaeth. Fe'r bwynghbwr diwethaf neu byddwch ar ei clywed fel cyddiadau. Mae'n gweithio'r gweithio'n gwneud roedd ein gweithio. Mae'r brifwpl yn ôl i'r cweithwi Pwyl, gallai gyfael ar gyfer y gweithio ac'r cwil gyda Llesin, ac hynny'n amlwg stance ag os ydych chi'n gweithio'r grwm. Felly mae oes yn rwyta i gynnwys ddweud i'r ddweud ysgolwyddon, byddwn i'n rhaid i'w dyfyrdd iawn sydd wedi'u cofodd yn byw y gweithio. Rwy'n rhaid i'w ddweud i'r Sabun yn rhaid i'ch ei ddweud. Ond yna, mae adrecheis. Ond. Mae gennym hwn yn rhaid i'n gwych. Mae'n ddweud. Ond rhaid i'r ddweud i'w ddweud i rŵr. Rŵrwmplowe yn yw'r profesywr ar gyfer ond erbyn chyflwylo sydd y LSE, O'r reis ei rhoi o disgylchedd diolchol iawn i g someplaceau mewn mynd i unrhyw un a'r unwyddo. Yn y ffawr mae'r reis wedi'u rhoi'r ysgrifennyddol a ffawr mae'r mwyfrin yn torfodd lofi, eu feministau a'r afgwyll yng Nghymru. ac ydw i'n gwirio'r newydd yw dyfodol yma bwrdd y gweithbeth o'r panflawn o sisiol yn gwirio'r ysgrifennyddol, yn hyd ar geifrydau warn nesafам. It works out how humanitarian organizations come to learn from and intervene in urban areas. She's currently on a British Academy fellowship and has a podcast series called Displacement Urbanism, that I hear is very good. So, David has joined us online, wonderful. You're not visible on this, on our big screen, but I can see that you're here, and we will pin you up on the screen later once we've been through our slide. So, David Ogry is an Interregional Advisor at Unhabitat, I'm providing technical and policy advice on a broad range of urban issues, including forced displacement in cities. I'm previously headed up UN Habitat's regional office to Arab States and prior to that, UN Habitat's country programme in Iraq, where he led UN's work on land, housing and shelter. So I'm going to move my slides, go to my slideshows. Is this all interesting? I'm going to go through this. Great, thank you. So working on issues of displacement, so by that, I mean refugees and internally displaced people, IDPs and other migrants. The intersection of cities and displacement is relatively new for IID, but this work started, this engagement with the humanitarian issues began around 2015 with the Urban Crisis programme that IID led in collaboration with the International Rescue Committee with funding from then DFID, Department for International Development. And this work was documenting experiences of city stakeholders responding to crises. And there were a series of case studies and papers that were published, many of them published as working papers, but a selection also were in this special issue of ENU. So the title of it was Towards More Effective Humanitarian Response to Urban Crisis. And many of the papers in that issue do have links to urban planning. So I hope that as I wouldn't be able to see my own slides while I was doing this, I'm going to have to do a slightly odd head turn. But for example, there's a really interesting paper, a series of papers came out external to ENU, but also in ENU, thank you, about area-based approaches. So if you're an urban development person, this is just the way you work. You take a neighbourhood, a city, you think about it holistically, the different services available, the different populations. If you're a humanitarian, you don't necessarily think like that. And you may actually focus more on people you consider to be disaster affected rather than taking into consideration that disasters affect people in different ways, movements of people in one place of a city to another, means that it's very hard to know who's affected and who's not. There's also an article in there about making markets work for displaced people in cities, thinking more about integrating the economies of displaced people, IDPs in this instance, into planning for the economic planning in the city. There's some work that we documented around participatory planning post-disaster and a great piece also, and Maggie, who's been asking questions, was involved in documenting community engagement and planning post-earthquake response in Haiti. And some papers around surging planning expertise in disaster response. And what's interesting is the editorial also makes the point that the tools of urban planning are very relevant for humanitarians and they really call for better collaboration and joint planning between local governments and responders to crisis as a way to meet long-term urban sustainable development goals or at the very least, not to contribute to urban fragility and vulnerability. And so that seems like quite a natural progression, actually, of the work at IID. If you think about all this work over the many decades about building resilience in urban areas, so the idea is how you integrate humanitarian response into planning for safer, more resilient towns and cities. So this work on the urban crisis programme actually led to more research. I haven't got it all up here, but the two main projects that are sort of building on this are both about urban displacement. So the one protracted displacement in an urban world. This is a comparative project looking at the well-being and livelihoods of refugees and IDPs in camps and urban areas in four countries, because Afghanistan, Jordan, Kenya and Ethiopia. And another project also in Jordan that is a comparison of spending on water and sanitation in a camp and a zattery camp in a mafret city. And the idea behind these projects is really to help. Well, there are many big projects. Actually, the one on the left is a very big project, but one of the aims of the project is to help communist parties by providing them with more data on needs of displaced people, their contributions and their aspirations. And both these projects are comparative, the comparison between the camp and the urban. And it's actually in examining these different sites of displacement in parallel, triggered a series of conversations and some thoughts about city and territorial planning. Now, this is where I confess that I'm not a planner, but for some reason, about five years ago, I decided to do an MSc in urban planning. I took me a really long time to do it. And I did it because I wanted to understand more about the world of planners and what they do and how they contribute. And I make some progress in that regard, but I'm not there yet. So I want to test some ideas and see where they might go. So one thing, first of all, is you can realise that is that going to disappear? Sorry, the two refugee camps, we can't quite see that. Five thousand kilometres apart is what it says. So one of the one on the left is in Dadaab in Kenya, a camp where we've been doing research and one on the right is our ASRAP camp in Jordan, where we wanted to do research, but we were not committed to, interestingly. So we ended up doing a research in Zatory. There's no coincidence that even though they're really far apart, they look quite remarkably similar. So they, these places have been designed for control. You put refugees in a camp really far away. You put a fence around it and you make refugees somebody else's problem and you make them pay for it. So basically you hand over these populations to the UN. And you say, well, we've let these people in and the UN afraid says what you need to see are the refugee agencies obviously doing all it can to keep borders open. And then when the government says, OK, let's put these people in a camp, traditionally, that is what has happened. But if you put people in a camp, you exclude, you exclude them from economies, from being able to move. You purposely sort of plan them out of your country in a way. But then we also know through our own research, but just generally it's well known that most refugees are not in camps, but data is not reliable, but people use the phrase 60 percent, the majority of the world's refugees not in camps. And but in most countries, if they leave or circumsent the camps, they end up living in informality. I'm not working here. Dear, I'd like to come to my next slide. Is there a way of doing it manually on that? Anything to say? OK, well, my next slide is a photo of two, they're both from the Middle East. And in one slide, there is a picture of a woman living in an informal, in unfinished building. And in the other, a picture of where people have built their homes on shelters on top of roofs or kind of in spaces or filling in spaces. There we are, not neither right. The one on the right is not very clear, but you can see people sort of filling in spaces in the urban fabric to find somewhere to live. And I want to tell a quick story about a recent visit to Amman, the capital of Jordan. Jordan does have camps. So it has that Azraic camp, that's actually camp and a few other small ones, but it has hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees living in cities. By far, the majority of the refugees in the country are in towns and cities. And unlike many places in the world, there are actually humanitarian resources going to refugees in the city and supporting services for them. But you're not seeing that sort of visibly in terms of the places where people are ending up living. And I wanted to explore what the greater Amman municipality, the municipal authority, knew about where resources were going, humanitarian resources in the city and who they were supporting, where they were going to. And perhaps I was naïvely thinking that they would be wanting to engage with this knowledge about knowing where things were going, because if significant numbers of people are coming into the city where you're working and bringing international resources with them, if I were a planner, I think, I would want to know where that money was going so that I can strategise, harmonise with our own development plans to the city, make sure resources are spent as efficiently as possible for the maximum number of people. But the response we got was, well, that's not really our business. That's decisions for people who are much higher up. And that's code in Amman for that's the king's business. And this is so politically sensitive that any decision around where refugees will go is taken at the highest level within the court. And this isn't unique to the Jordan context. So if you're in Kampala, as we were recently, and Boel has been there recently, if you talk to the Kampala City Authority, you'll get people recognising that there are other refugees in the city, but decisions, oh, that's taken by the office of the prime minister. So again, it's sort of somewhere else. And in Kenya, I just saw that our colleague Jack from Macau of MSTI has joined, and he's making great progress in encouraging the Nairobi County to think that refugees are their business. But still there is a tendency to say, well, refugees, that's the domain of the security services. So these worlds will remain apart. And I guess there's no perceived dividend to hosting refugees in the city. And we did also try and talk to them in the history of what we did talk to them, the history of planning in Jordan, just to ask how much money is going to camps, how much money is going to cities. And the answer is we don't have that information. And if you ask the UN about how much money is being spent on the camps, they don't want to say, and they possibly can't say either because they don't track their spending by location in a way that I would have thought would be an obvious thing to do. So I came away a bit perplexed. And I didn't wonder if we had this data, better data on where money was going, would we be able to avoid some of these situations? Would we be able to do some preemptive planning around where refugees could be in the city, what that might cost us? And I wondered about what opportunities we're missing about in the way things are done currently. So I want to turn over to Romola now. You've heard me speak too much today, I feel. And then Romola has been doing some related work and recently made visits to Greece and to Jordan and has worked in Lebanon and India on issues of urban displacement. And I want to just give Romola the opportunity just to chat about her, whether this resonates with her own experiences, what is happening with this intersection between humanitarian action and planning and what are we missing? What could we be doing differently? I'm going to pass this so it's closer to you, Romola. And I'll take my vote. Very good. Fine. I know how to fix things. There we go. It's working. It's working. It's working. Don't worry. Well, thank you everyone for being here and thank you to Lucy for inviting me for this. We did say that this was going to be a bit experimental, so forgive me if I waffle a bit. But I will do my very best to stick to time. I thought about what Lucy had wanted to ask me. And this is the question. I'm going to pick up on this point that Lucy raised about information about where people are going and why we can't get that information. And I agree that that has been my experience as well. And by and large, you find out where people are through ethnographic work. You are able to, if you spend enough time in the field, you're able to go into different neighbourhoods and people. In these cities will tell you, sort of off the record comments about where the majority of people who are displaced are living. But in many instances, I have heard people say that they, even though they do have maps and they can pinpoint down to specific buildings in which people are being housed in different places, they will not share that information. But I have to say that I do appreciate why they say that. And a lot of times, in many contexts, it has to do with security issues. In many countries, I think we may be well aware of the kind of hostility there are towards migrants and towards forced migrants as well. I know that that sort of division between what is considered economic and forced migrants is extremely artificial. But there is a tendency of being quite hostile towards migrants and refugees. And for that reason, a lot of NGOs and even city officials who do hold this information are not willing to share that information because they're afraid of those people being targeted and those neighbourhoods being targeted as well. So this might be one of the reasons why that information is not shared. I know that doesn't answer your question, but that has come back to me as sort of one of the reasons why. And I invariably will not ask them for that sort of locational information being attentive to that kind of security issue. So I think that that would be my response to why I hope to get that kind of information. But I think there's a sort of a there were sort of other questions and issues that come up in terms of thinking about sort of planning and that sort of intersection between planning and humanitarianism. And I think I sort of jot it down a couple of things here, which which I wanted to just highlight as a couple of things that come up in my work. And if I think about when, you know, when I have conversations about planning with humanitarians, the first thing that comes to mind is the word reluctance. Reluctant, and I will share an anecdote with you. I was at a conference a few months ago and it was and the conference was complete was basically a conference in which there were only humanitarian organizations and a couple of donor organizations who were involved. I was the only person who had anything to do with planning who was invited to that to that conference and even the people who were part of the the planning organizations and departments of the city were not invited. So at the end of this, I was asked to comment on on the conversations that had taken place over the last couple of days. And I said that I thought it was really surprising that everybody who was who was speaking were talking about things that planners would talk about, but they don't but they don't see themselves as doing planning. And the response I got was, was I have to say quite a hostile response. And it was hostile in that there were there were some people who really objected to my using the word planning because I think what a lot of humanitarians understand to be planning is much more physical planning. They see sort of infrastructure work. They see sort of large scale interventions as being what it what what is planning. They don't sort of see the kinds of work that many of us think about as planning the sort of issues around governance, the issues around thinking about local economic development on and so forth as lean planning issues, even and even though they're doing those kinds of work, they don't see that as being planning. And this is not this is this is not a one off. It reminded me of the fact that I have encountered this not hostility, but I have but I have seen this kind of mindset over and over again that whenever I've spoken to humanitarians and I have asked them about, you know, their work and the relationship to planners, it has always been a very oh, we don't do planning. We are not involved with planning. We're simply here for the for the short term of the medium term. And so there's enormous reluctance on their part to see what they do as being part of that planning universe. Then comes to the second point, which is about the medium termism, which is which is something that that again, I encountered in a lot of the work that I've seen is that I think we've had this conversation before that for planners, I think our intention really at the end of the day is to is to make a place vibrant to to make a place not just livable, but exciting in a place that that you would want to come to. So you really you think about it in the long term, like, you know, how do you get a place to become interesting where people people would want to live contrast that with what humanitarians do, which is, you know, how do you create a place in which people can survive for for specified for a certain period of time? Does a very much more of a short termism in their thinking? And of course, now we're moving into durable solutions or we have moved into durable solutions. And there's a medium termism in there. And this has come out explicitly in some of the discussions that I've had in that many humanitarians will talk about how they can only do projects that are medium term because they're not allowed to do sort of infrastructure work that will be long term infrastructure. And so this, you know, they're they're hampered by that. And that again, you know, what one of the problems I think that that comes up is this is again this divide between what a humanitarian is supposed to do and what their funding enables them to do and what you would expect out of planning. If we believe that humanitarian funding is constantly shifting and it just moves from one crisis to another. I mean, you know, the money will go towards the next crisis and we'll be taken away from from another place and you'll see dips in funding. How do you then create planning programmes? I mean, you know, how do you then invest in the long term engage with communities in the long term? And again, it's something that a lot of organizations, NGOs that I've spoken to have raised that, you know, this kind of work in urban environments requires a significant engagement with communities over a long period of time. And they don't really have that if every year they have to renew a project with a donor. I'm actually going to stop there because I am conscious of times I'm going to stop. But I think that, you know, these are certainly some of the things that have come up when it comes to sort of direct discussions around planning that helps with the discussion. I think it definitely helps. Thank you, Ramila. Worry about touching this microphone in case I do what I did. And I want to I want to hand over now to David Orbray, who's joined us online. So David is someone who was a, is a built environment professional by back then. I think he said I'll protect and his work in urban design, but it's now working within the UN system and has some more positive, I think, examples of how we could use planning to create better, more vibrant, more livable places for people who are on the move. So, David, I'm going to hand over to you and you've got a couple of slides. So just let us know when you want just to put those up. The floor is yours. OK, thanks very much. Really sorry to Gatiw, I can't be with you. I'm flying to the UK tonight, like half a day too late. So I'm sorry for that. But it is a real, you know, feel very honoured to join you and see in a few familiar faces in the crowd, so that's great. Um, yeah, so I think I think it's been fairly well established now that's planning, urban planning, spatial planning, either as a social process or as a physical process or a bit of both is it needs to be integral in the work of responding to displacement. And I think displacement is becoming, sadly, much more of a norm. And so displacement needs to be an important consideration in planning, particularly in some places. And I think Lucy and I worked with Gyps on a paper for the Secretary General's panel on the internal displacement where we made a strong case for this. And now that there's been an appointed advisor, a special advisor to the Secretary General on displacement, we're seeing that he is very interested in really trying to bring this work on urban planning much stronger into displacement crisis. So I think it is moving and I appreciate what, you know, that planning takes many different forms. And I think as a social process, we've seen that as really being important in, for instance, in Lebanon, integrating urban refugees with host communities around public spaces and things like this. So they've been quite important processes of integration. But I want to talk a little bit about territorial planning. Well, it's not new that, you know, the competition for natural resources often leads results in conflict and with climate change, we're seeing this kind of becoming bigger. And there are a lot of places now where we're seeing, we're going from the idea of protracted crisis almost to perpetual crisis as droughts and conflict coexist and people seem to be endlessly on the move. And when you see Somalia, for example, I've been working a bit in Baidoa, and we see that that city has absolutely expanded, you know, tripled in size in the last 10 or 15 years. And people move to where they feel safe. They move to where they feel that they could have opportunities in life. They move to where there's some basic assets such as health and education and different things, but particularly security. And they move to where there's humanitarian support. So naturally, all over South West States and Somalia, people have been moving to Baidoa and the city has now grown at, I would say, an uncontrollable rate, and it's not sustainable. You know, when you have people digging holes for water naturally and the water table is reduced so rapidly and so deeply that there will be a time where that city cannot sustain itself anymore. And so we also find that because people tend to move to the larger cities in a lot of these situations, that is very difficult for them to return, especially if they're coming from a rural economy. And, you know, what about if we would try to understand displacement as a norm, as something that we have to deal with? Why don't we start understanding displacement not as a crisis that we need to respond to, but an important factor of planning, particularly in those countries that seem to be in perpetual crisis? And what about if people could move to places, smaller cities closer to their rural homes? What about if those places had those basic factors of education, health, maybe water, safety, security, humanitarian support? And this might be quite interesting because over time, you might find that even the sort of family economy might be more diverse. You know, you might be a pastoralist, your daughter might be a teacher in the school. And so you're not affected in the same way as a result of crisis and you might have places you might be able to respond better to a crisis and still be able to keep a hand on your rural economy and return to it. So the idea of proximity is quite important. So if you just put up the slide, what we started doing in Sahel, for instance, and even this morning we were talking to IOM by DOA. In fact, I was actually, I think there might be something coming up for the three of us there. But we started to map all the human settlements across seven or eight countries. And we've started to look at overlaying that with the typical movements of people as a result of conflict and as a result of drought. And if you go to the next slide, we've started to map the assets of those human settlements. So on the top axis horizontally, you've got all the stuff, all the public assets, you know, whether there's water, electricity, schools, hospitals, secondary schools and the rest of it. The things, the economic opportunities and the rest. And on the vertical axis, starting from large cities to small cities, we've started to map and so with that, we're able to start mapping what assets exist where. And then if we go back to the previous slide, if we can identify then where people are likely to move to and where if you go back to the previous slide, when you start understanding the distribution of assets, you might understand where people are moving to now and why some of the larger cities are growing very, very fast and why some of the smaller cities are not even moving. And then you can start looking at, you know, would there be more logical places for people to move to, closer to the place of origin, which would still be safe, which would still have the basic infrastructure that could have as a security, et cetera. And should we be sort of targeting investment into those areas in order to provide greater options for people on the move and also to take the pressure off the cities that are growing so fast that they're growing informally and through a sprawl. This I think requires a sort of a proactive approach and it requires development actors to work with humanitarian because it's key that people are still moving to cities because they get support there, but also to work with security and peacekeeping and that scale as well. So I'm just putting that out there, but I do think then this approach, displacement then could become a positive force for urbanisation in that by, through a territorial planning approach, you can start identifying market towns, places that could be market towns, places that could support a rural urban economy, rural urban value chains, and actually the movement of people to those places could actually be an asset to local and territorial economies. I'll leave it there as further food for thought. It is something that we started doing, so how will we start to do it in Somalia? And it's really about bringing the humanitarian actors, development actors, urban planners and also IFIs together with local and regional government in that conversation about how perpetual crisis can be dealt with or it can be a factor of displacement rather than a shock each time. Thank you. Thank you to Romlar as well. Am I right in thinking I've got about 15 minutes left for the session? So I guess I should first ask, have there been any questions online or is there anybody who's put their hand? We have one for Maggie. OK, Maggie, who's very good at asking difficult questions. So Maggie Stevenson, who I mentioned, we'd work with her on an IID publication about Haiti. Do you think you could track that data in the UK and cities? So is this the data of where people are moving to or the data of where spending is going, Maggie? You can unmute yourself and ask your, I think you can ask your question. You can have a show. Sorry for all the questions. You were talking about your expectation of data that would be available or data that would be possible or maybe even fast to collect. And I'm curious to know if you think the same is easily accessible in the UK. Or you would face similar challenges. I don't work in a UK context, but from the. I don't work in a UK context, but I. No, it was it was Lucy's point about it. I'm asking a lot of answers. Lucy is making me answer for her. I don't know. I think it is available to an extent. And I at the some of the some of the people I know who have been working on these issues. They have been able to access data. I mean, I think this is a question about humanitarian. Funding coming into Jordan to respond to a specific events of the arrival of Syrian refugees and the minister of planning, not being able to easily tell you where that money had gone across its territory. So not even at the level of different governments, let alone between just generally between the camps, which is sort of their finite places. There are fences around them. You would think they would I just assume that they would they would know where that money was going. They'd be interested in knowing where it was going. But maybe this is me by being naive. Alison has a hand up. Alison, can you do it before? Because apparently sound like sound work very well for people online. You'll be done. Thank you. I wanted just to thank the presenters for some great, great thoughts. And I wanted to find a coach to connect them and run from its territorial presentation, which I think is fantastic. And I haven't seen it before. For some of the ground, it was a good moment of doing. And I asked what about public space? One of the things that I think about those photographs you showed us, Lucy, is that there's no public space. There's no centre around us. There might be a public space for lucky. We have a fantastic PhD in Cardiff University where I'm from and she's now ten years into her career. Christie, you look at the role of public space in reconciliation of the various communities in Lebanon. And she found some wonderful examples. And that's quite an easy win. If we think about spaces as spent in the reconciliation. And we can also think about that. So there are centres where communities where there are refugee centres in Addis Ababa. The other thing that we can turn around is the local government. Because the international community, like your own habitat, talks to other international agencies in the nation states. Local government gets pushed to the edge of the government is up and on the economy, particularly in the secondary cities. It's not a fashion place to work. It is a kind of different motivation. So I'd love to have comments from speakers on this issue in public space. So I want to ask David to come in and tell us his story about what happened when a camp planner was allowed to do some urban planning in, was it by DOA, and what happened in the result in terms of the public space issue? Will you tell us that story? I don't have a positive word I could add as well. Yeah, it's so very well-meaning, a fantastic government land available. They said we want to be proactive about IDPs, cures land that could be used by IDPs for housing, and we will make it permanent, and we'll have permanent houses there. And it was quite interesting. I came in at that point and I was saying, well, let's design it for the city. And of course, we can have mixed use, we can have commercial on housing and different type of houses to meet different needs. But anyway, a camp planner came along and they designed it in accordance probably with spear standards, I think. And they were all little blocks of maybe 40 houses with a sort of a space in between those houses. And it was, I thought it was a bit unfortunate because there was no open public space, it was just lots of semi-private spaces. And of course, when people move from rural areas to urban areas, they're kind of the social model, the society changes for them. But unfortunately with this model, it was perpetuating this sort of sense of subclans. You know, you came from that village, you would end up in this block and you'd have this very sort of insular life within the city. And in a way that plan process inadvertently sort of led to almost like a concentration of villages that didn't talk to each other rather than the city that was open to all. And we do talk about the rights of the city and public space is a key element of that right to the city. And when you don't have that public space that's open to all, but a series of semi-private spaces that reinforces the sort of subclan village kind of mentality, it was a lost opportunity. But anyway, the mayor with him of Badoe of Abastus to come back and actually try and fix things. So we're looking forward to trying to do that. But a positive one, just a really quick one, was working with refugees, Syrian refugees and Lebanese host communities in Beirut where the public space was tiny. But we, and of course, we used Minecraft because sometimes young people, they might not have much to say to each other. They sometimes needed digital space to start communicating to each other. And they modelled the public space and they started to interact with each other in Minecraft until they got to a point where they co-designed the space. And then that space was actually then built. And the refugees and the host communities felt the common sense of ownership of that public space. And then later on, the same public space was used to host meetings of the parents of refugees and host communities. And it became this kind of place of bringing together communities. And it was just such a lovely, brilliant process. And I think Bartlett's have done some work on it further. Desed, I think they called, some unit. But I think public space and public space co-creation as a social process is just a really powerful thing. Back to you. Do you have time for another question in the room? So we've got time for another question in the room? I think so. Hi. My name is Sarah, and I'm from the United States. And I had a question with you around love about the students who died by the study and some humanitarian values. I'm curious to know in what context. I mean, I know with UNHDR, and do you want to have a type of work to allow them to be on a human-settlement co-parting? To live beyond some kind of planning, to have an increased air, an even faster, if you create some of the situations that are posted in the way you're writing. So really curious to hear about the possibilities and where you reach out the room. And the last point is a big sort of question. Is what do you buy for a spider? Can you repeat the question one more time? OK, so I was asked about the study question. What I, you know, where I experienced that. And I was also asked what I meant by the term forced migrants. I'm not sure I can tell you where, in what context. I encountered that because it was, it was not, this was more chatter-house rules. And so we were not meant to have a discussion about, you know, who said what where. But it was in the Middle East, if that helps to narrow down the region. And I have seen this in instances in the Middle East. But I'm not talking about the UN organisations. It's not been so much, although the UN different UN institutions have said different things as well, which I'm happy to chat about separately. But these are there. Many other implementing partners have expressed some concerns around using such terms. So that's to answer your question on the first one. The second question is that, what do I mean, my forced migrants? I have to say I'm a bit uncomfortable using this term, but I was using this because we were talking about crisis and urban crises and why I'm uncomfortable using this term because I am very uncomfortable in, as I said, that this binary between what constitutes an economic migrant and what constitutes a quote unquote forced migrant is really problematic. I mean, that boundary is so incredibly blurred. What economic situations can make you a forced migrant and vice versa? So where do we start to draw the line? Are you leaving because you're starving because you don't have likelihood opportunities? Are you leaving because of a disaster that has led you into poverty? A lot of these issues are intertwined, and I know that there have been enough scholarship in this field. So I don't need to repeat that. But yeah, I am not comfortable using this term. I was only using this because we were talking about the sort of crisis kind of issue and the specific point about where do you find the refugees and where do you find the IDPs and how do you know where the spending is going for them? That I raised that particular point. But I wouldn't necessarily otherwise. Can I just come back to your question about municipal governments? I completely agree with this point that it's the municipal governments who are at the forefront of having to manage the situations. And that has really been the thrust of the work that I've been trying to do is to work with municipal governments to try and understand what they're doing and what their involvement is. And of course, everything is very context specific. So in some places, like in Greece, the municipal governments are much more involved in the management or were more involved in the management of the asylum issue in Greece, until of course last year when they started shutting down all the programs. And now if you're an asylum seeker in Greece, you simply go to a camp. In Jordan, it's actually quite interesting. Lucy and I've had some interesting experiences in Jordan. Really, it's the greater Amman municipality that has the power to make certain kinds of decisions in relation to many of these other issues. When I have spoken to NGOs and people within the government in Jordan, other municipalities are simply not empowered to have these discussions. And when I've had conversations with them about, well, doesn't the municipality have a say in where you've decided to improve the school or where you've decided to house people or where you've decided to? Because Jordan is a much more centralised system than Lebanon where I've also worked. They've just been like, no, that's not the responsibility of the municipality. They simply are not empowered to have those discussions. It's quite different to Lebanon where, and I'm speaking for 2016, so I want to contextualise the date. There were municipalities who were very unhappy with a lot of NGOs saying that they had not adequately engaged with them when they decided to intervene in the municipal areas to support displaced people. So it's very much of a mixed sort of bag. But yes, I mean, there needs to be much more engagement. I think we can all agree that there needs to be much more engagement with local governments because they're the ones who ultimately are facing the crises on the ground. So I know we've got David Satotwate online with his hand up. David, do you want to ask us a difficult question or make a comment? Thank you. Yes, there's just a quick comment. I've had 50 years' experience of visiting countries where governments have tried to decentralise urban development and to small towns. And governments are very good at picking all the wrong cities, cities that would have boomed with support are ignored because the president needs the airport near his constituency. And I think we're getting things round the wrong way. Secondary cities will grow if their economy is successful, not the other way round. So as a question is sort of finding the sweet spot, the cities that could grow and could be successful places of enterprise and could provide decent homes for people on the move, I guess. Yes, but yes, but also most of the world's fastest growing cities, the small cities too, we underestimate that. And in some ways I would look for the secondary cities or the small urban centres that are growing rapidly and look to see whether they wouldn't have much more capacity than small towns that are growing slowly, that are kind of economically stagnant. Good point. Am I going to say one more in the room? Alejandro is looking at me. OK, Alejandro. Yeah, thank you. I really want to figure your reflection on basically the difficulties of accommodating the needs of migrants within the landscape of identity and responsibility of the different institutions. Whether humanity is looking at children planning or not planning at all, or municipalities basically not having the kind of responsibility or to basically plan for that type of population. You get the stack into a landscape of accountabilities and a legitimacy that cannot be moved, actually. And if you continue to look at the problem maybe as a struggle problem that needs to shift this legitimacy and responsibilities, maybe you cannot actually move it, maybe you cannot, maybe you cannot. But then my proposition basically to you is how will you actually try to resolve this impasse if you basically look at it as a proliferation of difference? So what kind of connections can be done between traditional organisations that exist in place? So basically new leddities and responsibilities emerge, basically. That will be my question. If you have any thoughts, thanks. David, do you want to come in and respond? I'd love to respond to Professor Thathins-Raid. No, I think today it's pre-gates cards. OK, is that it? No, I can't hear it. Shall I respond to Professor Thathins-Raid? Hello. Apologies, David. Go ahead. Can you hear? OK, sure. No, I'm completely with you. I think there's a huge need just from an urban perspective when we're expecting 2.5 billion more people to move to cities in the next 30 years, it has to be small cities. It has to be secondary cities. And that is an opportunity because that also helps to balance economic growth across the countries, across territories. And it's so important that attention is paid on to secondary cities. Now, when it comes to displacement crisis, people are looking for a place that's safe, that may offer economic opportunities, that there are public services and public assets, and that there's humanitarian support. And I think it's possible with the humanitarian crisis to try and help push sustainable urban territorial development in the right way by bringing humanitarian support to secondary cities. And I think all too often, the humanitarian, it takes an effort to set up your base and you need to have all these security provisions and stuff like this. So it makes sense for the humanitarian to congregate in the larger cities. But supposing there was another way where we could say put humanitarian support in decentralise it into smaller cities and more of them, that might also help to steer population growth in a way that could be conducive to supporting the growth and the vibrancy of secondary cities. And I'd almost say the same when it comes to security. Why not? The peacekeepers are trying to reinforce certain cities and others that they're leaving behind. And we have to look at this nexus of security, economic opportunities, public services and humanitarian support to make cities able to work better for a situation of perpetual crisis. And then that takes different planning dimensions from territorial planning to look at the urban rural linkages and to understand where a city might fit or a human settlement fits within a landscape of urban rural economies. And this is my sort of concern with Kakuma and Calabey. It's far too big. They've decided to make this camp into a city. And when the territorial economy is based in a semi-arid area, is based on sort of market towns, the size of that city will not sustain itself. And it needs to be reduced. Otherwise, it will always require humanitarian support. Anyway, I can go on for too long. So let me give the floor back quickly. But thanks so much for the question, Professor.