 This meeting is being recorded to the cloud. It will soon be uploaded to the town of Amherst YouTube channel by our wonderful IT department. And at this time I will turn the meeting over to the chair Christine Gray Mullen. Hello, welcome all. It's Tuesday, August 30th, 4pm. This is the Jones Library design subcommittee. And I'm going to open the meeting and call it to order by checking if you could give a shout out if you're here. George here. Austin. Don't think he's not here. Hopefully he'll be coming. And Sharon here. Right. And we're also joined. Oh, I see just okay by our OPM Craig to Carlo. And we have two members of FAA we have Ellen Anceloni and Josephine Penta. And also I go with me will Fernandez also from college. And thank you, you know, I always forget you and will Fernandez well. Thanks, Craig. And you're the consistent one. Well, you know, we can. Yeah, thank you for that. I'm going to jump to item two we have minutes from July 15. Thank you, Angela for doing those they're short and sweet. So I hope everyone read them. I need someone want to get us to approve them. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm moved. And second that move. Okay. Great. Okay. So I'll just roll call. Well, are there any changes or suggestions? Okay. Great. Okay. So George. Yes. Sharon. Yes. And myself. So there's three. Thank you, Angela. And thank you for posting those onto our website. So we'll move to item three, which is called schematic design updates, which is sort of what we're doing. It's all. Yeah. So do you want me to just turn it over to you, Craig? And that would be great. Okay. All right. So I'll share my screen. Thank you. Thank you. So. Not to hammer on something that we're all very well familiar with, but I just want to quickly, you know, show us. Where we are. So, you know, we are at the end of schematic design. Where now I have not moved this red line over the red line is where we are today. It should really be a week later. August 30th. Just at the end of August. And we can see that there is a little bit of a schedule delay. So what we're, the reason why I showed this is because what we're hoping to do is really put the, our foot on the accelerated pedal and sort of get to the end of the real end of schematic design. So the design team can move on to design development and to do that. One of the things that we need to do. Or I would like to propose that this group do is look, take another look at our value management or value engineering cost cutting list. And then we can move on to the next slide. And then, even though these are items that almost everyone is familiar with, I'd like to go sort of top down review each one. We have, I've made a slight adjustment. It's mostly a verbiage thing. But whereas before it was rejected, accepted or rejected and possible. It's now, we've kind of ranked everything as plausible or not plausible. And I'd like to get everyone on. And then we can move on to the next slide. And then we can move on to some of them. If not all of the plausible ones into the accepted column. And again, this is just. My understanding is your recommendation to the LBC. Then at the next LBC meeting. They can make it official. But my hope is that today we can do some of that. You know, whatever legwork that remains to be done, we can do that today. If there are any in sort of that not plausible category that. We can do that. We can do that. We can do that. We can have the design team to. Look at what we could have the design team do is. For the neck for the LBC meeting. Advise on how much design time and how much design fee it might take to sort of delve deeper into them, either to really get a feel for. How realistic they are. Maybe cost estimate, you know, figures. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Cause it was confusing before. I don't see any hands from the others. I'm just going to say George and Sharon. Like just. Speak up. Oh, and Austin's joining us. Great. I'll give him a second to. Acknowledge himself. I'm here. Hello. Welcome, Austin. And you are. We can hear you. So did you hear what Craig was saying or. Should he summarize what we're our next processes? Keep going. Don't look back. Perfect. But did you hear how he described the, we're looking at this, the. I heard management and what plausible not plausible and accepted. I heard. I heard. Great. Okay. So. Craig, I think if you just, and thank you. Ellen and Josephine for being here to help give us answers and understanding as we go through these items. So just to our goal is we're looking to try to get accepted. Value management items that we will recommend to the. The Jones library building committee to act up. So we're just sort of trying to flesh this out and hear. Why they're plausible or not plausible. And is, and we just look at them as individual things. We're not like. Like, are we supposed to have the budget in our head? Like we're trying to cut the most we can, or are we just looking at these things as individual. Items and try to base it on that. Does that make sense? Yeah. That's a very good question. I think since we have such a large budget gap, I think the name of the game is to reduce as much as possible. So as to the extent that the design subcommittee is comfortable, we would like to move as many of them into plot into the sort of recommended or accepted category. But, you know, part of today would be if there are any remaining questions or clarification needed, then we've got a couple days to do some homework and come back to you at the, the LBC meeting. So as we go item by item. Yeah. Can we just have all, since there's only four of us in this committee, just ask questions or do you want to like finish the item and then. Have us raise our hands. What would you, since there are many that are somewhat interrelated, we can certainly it's going to be more of a free flow discussion. And then if we're getting too far off track, I'll, I'll just let you know, and then, or you say, you know, like, Hey, we'll cover that in a moment. So if that, if that works for you, that works for me. I think that sounds good. So Sharon, George and Austin feel free to jump in. Okay. So we're starting with item one. Yes. And so some of, as I was mentioning, some of these are interrelated. So one and two are connected. There are two shades of the same concept, which is right now the base estimate. And the regular costs, the reconcile estimates include CLT. To swap that out for steel as we've discussed, would reduce the cost somewhat. We currently have so that it's broken up into the floor as being sort of one plate, you know, one area that we could switch over to steel, and then the roof being sort of a second area. So two kind of big chunks of the building. And so what if you accept both of them, then that would be, you know, is structural steel. We have them currently listed as not plausible. The values are 250,000 and 200,000, those two portions of the building. That is, those are, as all of these are blended numbers. Those are the reconciled numbers, which is an average between the two cost estimators. Is there any desire to recommend this to LBC for further consideration or leave this in the not plausible category? Something that we're not pursuing at this time. And actually I don't wanna speak for the design team, but I think they've made it clear that this is a decision that moving into design development, we would not be looking back. We would stick with whatever is decided now. Yes, please leave, it's not plausible. Yeah, me too. We're good. So I wanna, if I may, Christine. Oh, please. I wanna, I think we were asked to do something by the full committee, which I think we ought to do, which is to, this is not plausible for what reason. And the what, the what reason needs to be articulated. It's not plausible because. So I think that's what we have to say. It's certainly plausible from a building and design point of view, right? It's not like if you move from cross laminated timber to steel, you're not gonna be able to support the roof or something. So I take it that it's not plausible, not for reasons of like optimal design, but because we believe, whoever the we is, that using cross laminated timber will have significant benefits to the sustainability, it'll be less of an impact when we build the building. So we need to just remind ourselves of these things because we wanna be able to say to the full committee that we looked at each one of these things. And what Christine asked, I think is, it's, do any of these cuts go to the integrity of the proposed expansion and addition? What is the trade off of the change against the budget savings? And I'll just say one more sentence. I take it that they're not plausible that Sharon, well, I won't speak for them. Sharon and George, you said not plausible. Why don't you articulate why you think this is not a plausible cut? So I guess I too don't like the plausible word, but I don't recommend cutting those two items at this time because they are key to our sustainability efforts, the community, it's a key reason why, one of the key reasons why the town voted for this project. So at this time I propose we keep those two items. And I echo everything that Sharon just said. So I just wanna clarify with Ellen, this is like a moment of decision, but not moment, but this decision because there is no going back later. It's sort of like, ah, it could be a damn shame. Like if we cut it and then miraculously we end up with extra millions of dollars and we're like, ah, but on the other hand, if we don't cut it and things get rougher, that's half a million dollars and we can't change it. Right, that's correct. If we do change it though, Christine, Josephine reminded me this morning is that if we change this back to steel, we have to do, what do we have to run the energy model, Josephine? Are the carbon, the tally again? Yeah, we'll probably have to run both the energy model for sure. It's a carbon footprint analysis, you know, that we'd have to recheck. And so, I mean, we're gonna do that again as we move forward, but I would imagine that you'd want, if we pulled it up from the project, I would imagine that everybody would want to see what the new numbers are moving forward before we even progressed to the, I would imagine. Does this change the look inside of the building? Just trying to, you know, where time and sustainability is so important, but I just want to find out if it's not plausible because what else changes? Does the look and feel of the building change? It will. It depends how much CLT we expose, but there definitely will be exposed additional wood. For instance, the columns as we showed in the renderings are wood at the moment. And that for certain would change. We would have some exposed structure at the ceiling and that would all have to be an ACT or some ceiling of the sort to cover. So could we pull up a rendering? So what you would, so if you use CLT and not do any ceilings, you're gonna have exposed ductwork, exposed piping, wiring, all that is exposed, which is fine if that's your end result you want. You know, and some, I would assume in some locations, you're going to want some kind of ceiling to hide the actual mechanical unit? I know we're jumping ahead and I don't want to get in the weeds. Craig helped control me on this, but later on we talk about wood ceiling and acoustical ceiling. And does that play into this too? So as someone's talking about this rendering, please consider that too and mention like what is wood, what would be acoustical and where the HVAC conduit goes. So you can see my screen at this point, right? Everybody. So this is an older rendering, of course. And I know we had done some updates after this rendering was done, but where you're seeing the wood right now, to be honest with you, I think the ACT that Craig had mentioned in the discussions last week, some of these wood ceilings would have been changed out to ACT, but the idea would be that if we had a CLT structure, that some of these ceilings wouldn't even be here. You would have, we don't show it exposed in these renderings, but you might have some exposed structure above. And so you would be seeing what typically is hidden in that structure. In between the steel and the ceiling, you have a lot of piping and ducts and other items running across. And those are things that typically are hidden, but sometimes you will enter into some establishments and you'll actually see some of that stuff exposed. It's become a lot more popular these days, but the idea is that some of these ceilings wouldn't exist with a CLT structure. So Helen, what would you see on the roof is roof ceiling, not the CLT. Like in this picture, what is CLT? Can't see it. Correct. I believe you can see the columns, right? Yeah. So these columns would be steel if we remove the CLT from the equation. So I'm gonna have the ceiling columns here. Very awesome, just one. So we have one that says steel floor and we have two that says steel roof. Which item one or two does the columns go in? Great question. Well, no, all the columns are wood, correct? Well, I think what Christine's asking is in the reduction of cost. Craig has it broken down to two elements. And so the question would be where does the structure of the, or where do the columns go in that structural breakdown? Oh, I see. He separated out the roof structure and the floor structure. And I'm not sure if you can actually define that Craig at this point. Right now I'm opening up the RLD cost estimates to see if there is any further description in there. I ask only because we haven't brought it up but if we were to, could we do one and not two or do two and not one? Yes, these would are sort of separate. You can do one, the other or both or neither. But if you only see the columns, that's why I'm wondering where... I would imagine that if you did the columns, you'd probably want that associated roof with it, if you're going to expose it because you'd want that whole space to feel connected, like it's all the same structure. May I follow up on something? So I'm just a little confused. So the rendering that I see does not show me exposed ductwork or wires. Correct. That wood ceiling you're seeing, Austin, is exactly that. It's a wood ceiling below the CLT system. So in this rendering, we're hiding that. Right, but are we now saying that if we keep CLT, that's what I thought I heard said. If we keep CLT, we're going to see it. All that stuff is going to be exposed. Yes. But I'm just not understanding, I'm sorry, I'm just not understanding why keeping CLT now means all that stuff is exposed. Well, if we, it doesn't have to be exposed, Austin. We can have CLT in use of wood ceiling or go to an ACT ceiling, acoustic tile ceiling. So that's either or. But once you do CLT, I think you want to think about not doing as many ceilings because you will then expose the CLT and that's, I think, why you want it, right? Yeah, I think to Ellen's point, I think a lot of people like to expose it because they might be paying a little bit of premium, but then they have the opportunity to expose it and show off that you have this carbon friendly building. You introduce this timber into the building and you made a good move forward in the whole sustainability. So I'm totally with you except I'm looking over Ellen's head. So I'm looking at wood ceiling. I think it's wood ceiling. It's brick. Oh, okay. Then I'm sorry, I thought it was wood. But it's the same idea, Austin, right? So it's the same idea and Craig, can I share my screen? Yes, Josephine's got control of the moment. Oh, okay, I have to let go first. Hold on a second. The reason why I think we want to be very clear about, good, that's fabulous. I think we want to be very clear about this is what we were asked to do by the committee is to be very, to dig into each one of these things and be very clear about why or why not we are recommending that the committee endorse it. So this is very helpful. So this is what we would see if we... Yes, this is what you would see. You would see, this is, I couldn't find one that was finished, but this is in construction. There'll be, on the top level, there may be roof drains. On the, there'll be more, there'll be lights hanging. So there's more stuff exposed, which is fine. So I don't know if the, I'll unshare Josephine. I don't know if, I don't think that's the question. I think the question for you guys is, do you want CLT? Now, we can either, and if you say yes, then we can be strategic working with you on where we actually put in some kind of ceiling. But the first question is, do you want it? Right, well, part of my, I'm sorry, Christine. I'm sorry, Christine. So part of the reason why I was inquiring on is because I wanted to see what wanting it entailed fully. Okay. You know, I can want it, but if, if it's going to produce a look that it's going to look like it's, you know, in 10 years, no one's going to want to look at it, then maybe I want it less. But on the basis of what you've shown me, I would just say for myself that we should keep the CLT both for environmental reasons and also for design reasons. And what you've just shown me, though it's not, as you said, absolutely the thing suggests to me that the design with CLT will be attractive and functional. Mm-hmm. How's that sounded? That sounded like architect talk attack. Yes, pretty, pretty much. Good. Good. So. And I just, but we can work with you on where, you know, getting the piping and all that stuff to a minimum on the really select areas that you want to show off the CLT. I have a little bit of information on the prior question, which was columns versus beams. It's sort of reading into the details of the RLB cost estimate, but they have separate line items for each of the components of the structure. So the columns is one line item. You can have wood columns. Wood columns is what you've got right now, but in theory, those could be swapped out for structural steel. You've got in that image that Ellen just displayed. You can see the beams. And in the image, of course, they're timber mass timber. They're a line items for that in the cost estimate. Then the deck itself, which in the photo Ellen had. It looked like a series of planks. So when you look up, you see mostly wood. Similar thing cost estimate, base cost estimate includes that as being mass timber, but in theory that's something that could be, you know, steel and concrete or wood. So I sort of going out on a limb, but I believe that you put in again, this is also sort of a structural engineering question, but I believe you could have wood columns. And then some of the components up above could be steel. Say the deck, but the beams be wood, and then you'd fill in with ceiling in between. So I think there are kind of levels of how much mass timber you want to include. Then you start to whittle away at the savings. Right. I guess I was just trying to feel out, you know, it's $450,000. Is there a way we can spend 200 and then save 200,000, which is a significant line item. I think the rendering that you were showing before Joseph Dean doesn't show exposed utilities or pipes or anything because it's encased in a wood ceiling. So what I was wondering is was that rendering could be, well, I was thinking it, could it be the CLT or steel? But now I'm thinking that rendering is more that if it was steel behind that wood ceiling, because you've got the steel and all the pipes and then you cover it with this nice wood ceiling. Is that what that rendering is? Correct. And to that point, you weren't thinking it was steel though. Were you Josephine? Well, this is pre-sustained that these renderings were done. Oh, that's right too. Right, right, right. I'm going back. We actually added the wood columns to this rendering, but it was originally done with, with steel columns. Right. But to, to someone's point, I think it was yours. If we, you know, if you folks sort of picked areas we could showcase the CLT, like maybe you only want it in the first floor because that's where everyone enters or what not. And you want it in the main spine or, you know, somewhere in particular, where it's really going to show it off. Maybe the first floor has the wood columns and the wood structure that Ellen was showing, but then the second floor sort of goes back to the original rendering where it's just, you know, ceilings and it's just, you know, something to think about. If you're going to hide it, then it might not be as valuable to you as for, you know, that cost. But I wonder, I worry when we start mixing and matching, we're going to lose the savings. And, you know, if you go in, you know, we put this project out to bid and it's all steel and concrete or all CLT, you're going to get a better price. If you start mingling these up together, you're not going to get the bang for your buck. I don't know what you think Craig and Josephine. I think there's truth to that for sure. So I don't want to leap ahead, but on 11 or 12, we have ACT replacing these wood ceilings. So if we go back to this during that we were looking at, and that's somewhere between $300 and $350,000. If I'm in that border, like if something's got to get cut, are we going with the beams? Or are we going to look at the aesthetic so to, or are we trying to have it all? We're trying to have it all. But we can't. So we're, it's like we have a wallet and we're just trying to figure out what we can buy with what we have on our wallet. So when I look at that rendering, and I think, is there a, you know, CLT or not, besides the beams, the vertical beams that could be covered in wood, if we're just talking aesthetics, I know, but if it went all steel, what was peening me is when I look at this rendering, the biggest shock, and we're not getting into the skylights yet, but the wood if that went to ACT, that is a huge different block. Right, but with, if this was CLT, Christine, we could not put in a ceiling here and we could be very selective on where we do put ceilings, right? So, so I think that it's a, the savings that we would have if we just went to all ACT, I think if we, maybe, I don't know if this is correct. If we went to CLT and then reduce the amount of ACT, we're going to be saving that piece. So, you follow that Craig? Because that would be then a cut of a third of a million dollars potentially. The ACT. Yes. Like I'm looking for something to cut here. I know we want everything, but. Yeah. And I think we're going to, we're going to need, we want some drywall ceiling or some ACT at some locations. Right. We can just make those minimal. Like we see some of that on the, the sawtooth right now on the south side. Would that be like drywall? Yeah. I'm just knowing other people know what we're talking about. So one quick question for you Craig. And it just went out of my head. I'm sorry, I just lost it. It'll come back about what that is. I have a question too. The ACT that you swapped out. Was that a full swapping out? You put just ACT panels in that, the E line item. As a replacement to all of the ceiling types that we had. That was my question. So I believe the, the compound wood ceiling is. Largely the ceiling of the second floor. Basically what we're looking at here. The ceiling of the first floor, I believe is mostly plank. Sealing tiles. Except probably the around the Cirque desk. Okay. We typically keep the finishes nice at Cirque desk and around the major stair. Yep. So I think the idea is you would have zero compound wood to realize this $300,000 savings. You'd have zero. Compound wood ceiling. Everything would either be, everything would just be a drop ceiling, either long planks or two by two dials. Or some combination. And then for it in additional savings is number 12, which would be, or I guess it's separate. You could, you could have the wood ceiling up on the second floor. You know, the ceiling of the second floor. First floor instead of the planks, you could go, which are nice, very sophisticated look. You could go to two by two ceiling tiles, which a little more of a typical ceiling. So those are two separate values. Yeah. So if you're going to, if you're going to, if you're going to use the same name as items one and two, you can kind of mix and match. But I'm under, I'm confused now. If we have CLT, like. What Ellen was showing on her. As built picture. Yep. We would just have more conduit exposed, but we would have all this replaced with two by two. No. Correct. Yes. You could achieve even greater savings by going, by having essentially no ceiling or very limited ceiling. But one, one thing I would like to put in perspective. And I think when we had a call with Craig earlier today, every month delay is how much money, Craig? It's the escalation we're seeing is 1%, basically 1% a month. And so what is that? So far, I guess it depends on which construction cost you use, but. So let's say if we're at that 38 million, 38.5 million. So we're losing in value. We're losing $385,000 each month. Right. Yeah. So if we spend a month and we save 385,000 in theory, we've actually saved nothing because of the building costs has gone up. So if we spend an extra month and we save $2 million, we're still ahead of that. So if we spend an extra month and we save $2 million, we're still ahead of the game. If worst case scenario is we'd spend a month. And we'd save $0. Now we've essentially lost $385,000 worth of value. So right now we're looking at what we can cut and you know, what savings we can do on this building. And I don't want to make it sound like. Anything we cut is not going to save like. If you have to make the decisions. So Ellen, if as an architect, you and just, we're trying to desperately save us money. We're a town that really wants a sustainable CTL. It is a priceless item. Let's show it off. I mean, if this is what the people want and we're spending the money, then let's go into a library and see it. You know, when I'm looking at a rendering like this, you don't even see it. So how could you design a building that maximizes the look of the CLT? Yes, we are. We understand that there'd be more conduit and, you know, we know we're in the, like your office and. Yeah. We know what it looks like. You painted black, whatever. Can we save money then through the. Ceilings that money there. And why is that going to make. A delay so that we wouldn't actually make any savings. You know, I know my point of reference, Christine was just to, to, to just, you know, because the longer we wait, the more money we lose. And I just, we, it seems to me that as an architect that will work, we've been working with you guys for a while, sustainability is huge and Amherst huge. And from my perspective, I don't live in Amherst, but I've heard how important it is. I would try to keep it. That's me personally. Because it's just so important to Amherst as a town. So where I think we're in a point of where we've reached kind of agreement on this, right? We've fleshed out why, which is both for the sustainability and the design features and what has helpfully been illuminated is there other things that we can do in the building. You know, ceilings here, ceilings there, but I don't know how you feel about that. I don't know how you feel about that. I don't know how you feel about those decisions we can look at in a few minutes when we look at those proposals. So Christina, are we good to go that we're not going to recommend and we have our reasons? Well, I'm, if I had to vote on this right now, I don't know how you feel Austin, but I would like to table this decision and come back to it after we talk about the ceilings later on. And highlights and that because it's a lot about look and feel. It's all tied together a little bit and I just feel we, we really need, need to make a due diligence effort here to try to cut something and still keep sustainability and, and an attractive look. So Craig. Let's just, let's just, again, the language counts, right? Which is what we have before us as a recommendation of a million and a half. It cuts. So we've already got on the table. It's not like we're not going to cut things. We've got proposals to cut things. The question is, do we want to add anything to that or remove anything from that? Right. And after I saw the numbers come in on the estimates, I feel we really have to look hard at it. At everything. Realistically. None of us have a crystal ball, but. Times are tough. So Craig, do you want to go to three and four or should we stay with. The skylights and the roof and keep. Because I see a lot of them are then, if we skip around at the brick pavers, like exterior things, how do you want to do this? Let's, let's go through the list in order, even though it's somewhat arbitrary. Because then maybe it will give us. Little time to reflect. Or not complete the issues too much, but try to separate a little bit. All right. So. Three and four both have to do and five. Have to do with the exterior material. Numbers. So. I don't know in Josephine, maybe you can pull up a. One of the exterior renderings. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. For reference, but. While she's preparing that. So we have right now there are, I think, three main materials on the exterior walls. We've got a brick for most of the building. We've got a, an aris craft, which is a man made material. Silicon, silicate based material. Looks like stone, but man made. That's at the base. And then there are some areas of metal panel. Specifically, I think are on the. Was it the North facade, the rear of the building. Towards the CVS parking garage. So these next three items have to do with. Tinkering with those. Arrangements. So. The first one. Would be. The consumer craft. Loose, and a handcraft in lieu of cast stone. So these actually must be at the window. Sorry. Actually the best thing maybe Josephine, if you could pull up, let me stop sharing this. We'll try to. Yeah. I'll pull up the renderings that we had, I think at the last meeting. Can you send that spreadsheet to Josephine? Or just being sent Craig the rendering. Just so we can have them both up on the screen at the same time. Let's clunk it going back and forth. I don't know which is easier. I Can I can very quickly share this with Joseph? Famous last words. I thought very quickly Yeah, I've asked too much of my computer. It's spinning. Well, do you want to bring on the bring up the rendering just being of The I think it's the the shot from the rear Yeah, is that the best one at the last The last presentation where we had the exterior material options. We have I can okay So you're seeing this green Yes So this is the original the break over the slate base And then could you just quickly walk us through those materials again? I think it's helpful. So seeing them and talking about them Sure. Yeah, so the original design that we had we had a Gray brick probably of a longer size like a Norman brick That is at the top two floors of the building. That's what you're seeing here and here And then our base was originally a slate scalping sort of built up like masonry, but We might have a better image Nick that was Right, so in the cost estimate that material is air is craft. I believe yes Yes, so it's you know a different a little bit different of a look And then that that band between the two is that the cast stone? This band here. Yeah, that's right. Yeah And that might be a we could that could be just it doesn't necessarily have to be cast stone in the end We may have an option to Arras craft have just a different color product we could use from the base So so that's super helpful. All right. Go ahead. Those are just I think I was going to add that these pop-outs that you see here were I think we talked about this last week or the metal panel Portions so anything you see basically that isn't breaker stone is is metal and glass Remaining so these pop-outs would be the same as the roof material, which is the standing scene and then And then the rest of it is glazing And Question so the the white frames around say the windows on the ground floor level and the windows up on the third floor level On the second floor level so the highest level that we're looking at those. That's also metal panel. I believe No, it's either It's isn't it just the window frame Josephine. Yeah, we're just shown. Yeah Okay, a heavy window frame. Mm-hmm Got it. All right. And so then the metal panel is limited to that The large area in that North Yeah, and then of course the elevator Headhouse, you know and on the sawtooth right stroke screen Yeah, yeah, like we've got the side panels here that would be metal as well And that we could make that could maybe and we can work that on dd that could either be standing standing scene Or flat seem something a little less expensive a little cheaper than the metal panel All right, so then the the three Places where the cost estimators have offered up places where we can save money Is that cast stone band between the ground floor and the second floor first floor? I'm sorry That switching that to as Ellen said an aris craft maybe a different color would save 30 could save $30,000 Somewhere in that range The metal panel Say around that northeast corner those those windows into the fiction and nonfiction areas Switching that over, you know, so changing the look to more of an aris craft or um An aris craft material would save potentially a hundred a hundred ten thousand dollars and number five is 50 percent aris craft and 50 percent metal panel Just at that white protruding area. I don't think you'd mix them. Yeah Take a quick look at the drawings But the and maybe I just wasn't Listening Um, totally is the there's an option to make the aris craft base brick, correct? Yeah, well, we had that as as an option, right? Um Is it on this list? We had the rendering. Yeah, that's that was the rendering. Oh, yeah. Thanks justine And it could be a different color brick it could be it could look like aris craft. It's just going to have more joints in it That is not on this list Maybe we get that number. Yeah, I don't remember the difference on brick and aris craft I don't remember how far off they were. It may not be that far, but I think it's worth double checking Brick and little aris craft at brown floor Yeah, we probably want to think about this pop out a bit. Um I think and I yeah now that we're thinking about it again craig If it's aris craft, it's heavier than metal panel and it may need to beef up the structure Okay But maybe he figured that in this number possibly I think we're trying to keep as metal because it's kind of an extension of the roof Yes, I don't know if there's other materials we could sort of think about too that are lighter and might Um Be cost effective and when they did this estimate it could have been at that moment Metal is pretty expensive Because we're seeing fluctuation of different materials depending on the week Right. All these estimates are kind of uh taking a long guess. Yeah, where things will be You know a year from now So may I ask an aris craft question? So I poked around I poked around on the website of aris craft and It describes a lot of different things at least on the website so Is there some clear sense of what it is that we're referring to when referred to aris craft because uh From that's a good question looking on the website. There are there are lots of different things craig That would be a design question. Sorry Oh, no No, I think it's I don't know what the estimator when he said aris craft. I don't know what he's saying that is There we go craft can be panels as well. But if it's just a brick shape Then it would look so it's more it's more like that Austin than just a standard brick No, yep, that's what showed on the website as well Yeah, sorry and my my assumption would be that the Estimator would not be adding a new material rather saying do more of this do more of what's Been described in the uh specifications. Yeah So ellen and justine if you had a little bit of time We're trying to get ready for the next meeting on september 8 Could you with some thought Combine these three things and sort of come up with some design adjustments that would save money I I think I you know what I would love to do is get direction from you guys of what you want And if you need to see this rendering updated Based on what we talked about here today. We can do that. Can we have it for next week? I don't know Monday's a holiday But not maybe not in china. That's where these are done But I I I don't know I think Think the idea of using the aris craft is that we would still stick with a darker stone And the idea was that it would get as close of a look to the slate sculptings And that was the intent just to not change the look but save some money And that's where we ended with the aris craft. So I don't think it that it will actually be too different from this look here ellen you can jump in no, I agree with you just mean striped but That that stripe we would get that stripe no matter what if the stripe was even a different color brick If we did a soldier course in a different color brick, we're still going to have that stripe But for less money and yes around the On the left framing the windows Is that something that would be changed out and on the You know included in these items three four and five Me I would love to get those both things on one screen um Sorry, it's uh aris craft lua castone aris craft in lua of metal panel and 50 percent aris craft slash metal panel I don't know. I that go ahead. I don't know what the heck that is That's right. So I got them some more more clarity. Um, so when we we took these ideas from the rld list and put transfer them over to our list we shortened some of them the rlb list makes a little more clear and so Aris craft aris craft brick and lua of stone. So that one we've got a good handle on that whereas on the line The next one was aris craft brick or stone in lua of composite metal panels So the idea is composite metal panels gone and you are redesigning so that it's There's no composite metal panels either aris craft or brick or stone Um, and then the third one would be To switch out half of that whatever that material ends up being with a low lower end Um exterior materials such as a hardy board new So that wouldn't recommend hardy board Well, if if you want that look and That hardy board would have to be it comes pre finished And over time it will be a maintenance thing Not in five years, but I don't know how long their warranty goes for It could be I know we could look at the But I but the question is I I don't I don't know how to get to get Answers to this without us doing design work and design work should be done in design development Yeah, so here's here's the if I make christine. Here's the problem You say hardy board and it doesn't parse for me So, uh, you know hardy boys. I know that you know hardy meal But hardy, but I but this is the process question. So I believe that we should substitute As is proposed This aris craft material. I see it. I know what it is But when you say hardy board, I don't know what it means So it's hard for me to say well, let's do option three when I've got no idea what a hardy board is or what it looks like Right. Right. No, I don't want you to spend a lot of time Like doing design work of that You know, it's like we're not going to do that. So you would have wasted you would have wasted time But I will say that in advance of the meeting the next meeting What josephine did with aris craft Somebody's got to be able to do with hardy board In other words, the meeting is going to be just a bollocks of people not knowing what it is that we're even talking about You don't have to do design work to show me what hardy board looks like correct So That's what i'm that's what i'm suggesting that Whatever it is that we're talking about So hardy board is a Fake wood siding. It's not vinyl thriving. It's not wood. It's used on houses all the time. It's very nice. Stop Yeah, and it looks And so when this says an item five 50 percent aris craft slash metal panel Is that 50 percent of that is a metal panel? It's a metal panel. It's a metal panel. It's a metal panel. It's a metal panel. It's a metal panel Is that 50 percent of that lower area again not building on what austin says like a picture of what hardy boarders is helpful But if we look at that rendering if you can even use your cursor and show us areas that could potentially Be turned into hardy board. I'm going to share my screen. So this is This is products that hardy board makes they make the siding that you'll see a lot On buildings they which is a cloud board, right? And then you have to do trim boards and they make this flat panel Which you see a lot in boston. They're every multi-family going up has this stuff on it Yeah, and you can get vertical. So this is the variety of things they make great The only thing is is eventually you're going to have to paint it, but it won't rot So craig, I assume rlb was assuming we were going to do this hardy board right For and not the clouds Yes, but that's like that's such a bizarre thing to me. There's some there's some kind of saying about that It's just it's it's wrong You wouldn't mix the two So if you pull up the rendering of our building if you could just show what I'll stop sharing That between the three of you you can figure out what areas could potentially turn to that I when I when I said first no hardy. I was thinking the cloud board, but if we can get that smooth And I'm on the same page as you Ellen. I thought that's originally that's what right The listed item except if we're going to have to paint it every five years. I want no part of that You don't have to you don't you will eventually have to paint it, but you'll probably retired The mill district that's all hardy board That yeah, all the you know, all the developers are using it because it's the cheapest thing you can get I still don't want George out there painting it You probably get 10 15 years before you paint it lasts a long time Yeah, we're doing it now and that's the whole cell you pay a high fee, but you don't have to paint your house for a long time. Yeah But so what's what's your question? What's the question? Do you want us to do areas of that rendering could possibly be This white protrusion Right so that you could do that And that could be $150,000 savings Definitely putting Craig in the spot here I Think the difference between the hardy board and the metal panel for that area perhaps is $150,000 But it doesn't have to be that area. I think I think so a common concept in Early stage value engineering is the concept of design to a target and so You know today or you know this this this list we can say something like all right change half of the area to from x to y And we don't need to necessarily know exactly where we're changing But we just sort of the design team keeps in mind. All right, if we have 5,000 square feet of material x 2,500 of it by the you know, by the end of design development half of that 2,500 It's going to be material y the cheap stuff, but we can still keep some of x so perhaps almost like when we were having that ceiling discussion that areas where the the public is Seeing a lot of and in touching And you know in close proximity to maybe that's where we put the nicer material the what we currently have and then the it's sort of hidden areas or areas that aren't as Visible we Put in a lesser quality Let's A less expensive material Does that make sense? At the thing that I don't understand is this 50 percent aris craft in metal panel The primary places that we have metal panel is on the white projection and on the sawtooth So I think the sawtooth are are fully encapsulated in Item eight. So we were terrific. Yeah, so that so that'd be that's like the glass the the structure the Clatting the roofing basically make those go away and put in a plain flat roof is sort of like One cost one number. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense So but the only so just when you would know this better than anybody The other place that we have metal is on this white protrusion protrusion and when we say 50 percent Of this will be aris craft in metal panel. That's like a donkey Again, it's not right. So I don't think they're I should a camel Yeah, you don't have to do half and half. I think uh, the the cost estimate was saying Add up all your area of aris craft and metal panel and somehow, you know, you know an appealing way Reconfigure it so that half of it is hardy board I mean you could do all of it in hardy board, but I think he was trying to But I think my question is just um Perhaps you would have to just go back and look at the numbers, but if you were assuming 50 50 Right now the way I see it is that there's a lot more base material than there is material at the projection right in I In the the thing of it is the aris craft In a metal panel are two distinctive Looks aris craft as you saw is more of a ashler stone and the metal panel is sleek and flat so From an aesthetic point of view architecturally you wouldn't change that those wouldn't interchange You might interchange as we talk the the Metal panel for hardy board The panels the the big sheets And then I'm also not sure it's great. I think you might have noted it before but Did you include the elevator at house also in your numbers as far as metal panel totals in your estimates? right so Speaking of areas that are somewhat hidden, you know, maybe that's an easy one to switch to a hardy board Yeah, because I keep on the head house, but you know, we have that whole corridor that yep Yeah, you know skywalk if you will that goes to the top of the floor Staff area so that we all be lined with the same material Right, so perhaps that area plus this bump out on the first and second floor the northeast corner you know if you add those areas up and you and You add up the ground floor base. Maybe those are somewhat equal and so you say okay, well we'll do hardy board for anything Second and third floor. I'm sorry first and second floor But the ground floor because people are going to touch into people are going to hang out back there We'll keep that as the air is crap or vice versa. We say, okay We want to keep that nice crisp long lasting metal panel up there But then we do Instead of air is crafted at the ground floor level. That's all hardy board So that that's the type of concept and again, I don't think the cost estimators are dictating It's got to be one way or the other. I think they're just saying As a concept if you reduce If you make some of the material less expensive you can save $150,000 But I can see how this is totally confusing I see Austin nodding his head. Yeah, it is it is confusing and I think I think we need better descriptions and we can work with you craig and come up with something It is it is again. Everybody's grateful has been a lot of work on into this, but It's a little hard to to follow all of this and you guys have a fabulous conversation, but I'm and I'm sure it's it's great, but um You know, it's a little hard for I'm sure George is just thrilled at the idea of more things to maintain on the outside of that building You know more things to paint more things to worry about But I want to go back to where we started for a minute and I want to get a view of that of the spreadsheet And then I think we need to talk about the process So again, Craig, can you get rid of the rendering for just a second so we can see the hold spreadsheet? So Josephine's got I sent the spreadsheet over to Josephine so that Okay, and can Josephine can you make that spreadsheet legible to the elderly I? Yes Zoom it a little bit or increase the thing because otherwise you're not gonna be able to see There's a slider just being in the lower right hand corner of your screen if you want to All right All right So well, it's good good enough so that I can You know Ned Christine so We're at items three four and five. Is that correct? right, okay, so uh I got a little lost with the The hardy board is that number five? Yes. Yep. Okay Great. Well, that's very helpful. That's very helpful to see so in the Proposed changes the plausible We are in fact showing The 50 percent errors craft and 50 percent the hardy board combo. Is that correct? Correct. All right, and the hardy board you are now saying would probably be where the metal The framing of the windows That that kind of that kind of metal Yes Okay, so that gives me a little little image of what what it is. I'm talking about and does hardy board come in A range of treatments such that it will work with whatever our aris graph treatment is You're asking the designers a hard question. I don't know what the I'm sorry austin So here's what I'm trying to figure out a cost estimator says you can save money by doing x y and z Mm-hmm great I'm talking to architects and I just want to make sure that I understand that the hardy board material that could be substituted for that metal panel Could Nicely combined with Whatever kind of aris graph thing that we that's all I was just I just needed a yes. Yes. Yeah Okay So the difference with these conversations is a few months ago when we were talking to our designers That's what they do. Their architects are talented and they Have a vision and they're trying to make an attractive building, but they're not Obsessed with every little dollar and what how they finish out the building So here we are now at a budget that we need to really hard examine every Material for what it costs and can we still have an attractive looking building? Which I think it will be but the designers have to sort of Figure out how they're going to do their designing with a less expensive material because it does change things And this is a hard moment, but we have to do this due diligence. I understand it's taking a long time Maybe because I know where you're going with this austin you know Maybe we're going to have to have to design subcommittee meetings before the next meeting or something and the designers are going to go off and Talk with craig and dive deeper in this and come up with what the agreed savings. Maybe could be If materials are swapped out These are needed conversations We've had 10 of those Christine. We've had 10 of those We've been talking about we've craig is our new best friend We've been talking to craig every day essentially Going through these numbers and I think this this piece is just confusing and it's we have to just make it Organize it better. So when we do meet with the big committee, there'll be no question And that that's because we know what it, you know, it's we'll make it more clear So you just shocked me a little saying that there was 10 previous meetings that You know, yeah, Austin's like I don't get this and and I'm saying Why is there not agreement that we can move this item that we had under possible and to accept it be, you know Chris well, I just say hold on one second. I'm sorry to interrupt someone from Boston, but But I think there is agreement I think that's we we've got a proposal the proposal came out of Incredibly diligent meetings between the architects the opm the director of the library. We have a proposal What we're asking for and what they're doing. So, you know, it's taking a little while It's just to clarify for us, right certain things So this is the this the we don't need another proposal. This is the proposal. No, no, no We need to know When we cut an amount What is it going to look like? What are we getting? What are we gaining? What are we losing? I mean, obviously Money, but what are we losing and that's And I I get how this is hard because it's from estimators and the prices are constantly changing So, you know, right now if I was to ask the four of us, you know, should these line items three four and five move into accepted We, you know, I can ask that and if if it is a go to go into accepted. Well, the next phase is these designers have to Really have this buffed out and be able to explain what it's going to look like what parts are going to be what on the renderings It's hard without updating renderings. That's why Ellen was saying she wouldn't know if they could have new renderings by next week No, I don't think so I don't think so. Um, but just just to back up the what the plausible not plausible That's our recommendation, right But I thought Craig in the beginning of this meeting said that in this meeting we're trying to move the plausibles into accepted So that that can go to the building committee. Correct So we're saying it's can I just finish Austin? We're saying it's plausible We're asking you is it acceptable to you? Yeah, and my answer is yes, it is acceptable That would be my that would be my answer and I don't I don't think that We're going to ask you to design the building So that we can tell you whether or not Like we like we like hardy board So I think that you've made a proposal you've shown us hardy board. You've shown us aris graft I think um Uh, we ought to say yeah, that's that's an accept that's an acceptable change And we will of course want to you know, see what it's going to look like At some point we're going to say gee you may might want to move some here or some there But I I myself. I don't know about george or jaren or christine I think it was very helpful to me to see the aris graft again. It was very helpful for me to see the hardy board I think it's a plausible it's a plausible change and I think we should accept it I agree with austin. I think we should move items three four and five into the accepted column uh basically because they are aesthetic issues and um, and we can make these cuts Right. I agree with I agree with both of you. I think we have enough information to make that choice Yeah, and just Just when you come make sure you bring pictures. That's all That's the expectation and as ellen was saying there was a lot of discussion between our opm and the designers because They're this They have to figure some things out. So when they figure this out and if you could have it defined and Maybe mark up some old renderings or something. So because I think the building committee is going to want to well What we can't christine we can't do the 50 percent aris craft middle panel because that's designing That's going to take that's a that's what we have to do in the next phase I think I think what has to be done is We have to move for I know that it's going to take a little bit of time We can show you like images of of aris craft and make sure people understand what it could look like But for us to mark up on the building where we're changing it I don't we don't know when we're doing 50 percent But we can we can show you I'm good to go with this It's just what the building committee if they're good to go with it. I just know with the outreach, you know There's been a lot of What what we can do christine is on items three and four We could put a we can put a bubble around that on the renderings and say this is where it would change great, okay, perfect But one thing christine you said and I don't think you meant it is that we do care about all the costs We do we are very cost-conscious. I didn't see the care That's not what I said. Okay. All right Originally designing that is not your prime concern of what the materials cost like you're designing a building You're the best we could do in the look and feel and then you're like, okay, and then of course you propose We had a different time period than it was three million dollar building and you were building it for that and now it's different times so It's a normal part of the process. This is This is normal. Could we go could we go to number six? So yes Window sash replacement. Yes. So so number six. Um, the base cost estimate includes, uh, the existing windows In the existing the renovation portion of the project being replaced the sashes Um For a savings of around 170,000 we would leave the existing sashes, you know, the movable parts of the window in place Um That is another one that's sort of technically feasible But great. I personally don't know what condition they're in George does yeah, I do and and that was the question I had the last time we looked over this was um There would have to be a cost factored in as to renovating the existing sashes because They are the originals and they've been painted a million times and Many of them are in poor shape. They would at the very minimum Need to be removed and and and renovated. So I'm just wondering how much of that savings will be lost By replacing them. Um, and maybe that gets put into, you know, historic preservation funds or whatever, but I just don't see that as a total savings because you would have to do something With all of the original sashes And I think George to add on to that the question is what and I can't remember Is there a storm window on the outside? There are steel storms that were added probably in the 70s and they are also in mostly poor condition And to realize this 170,000 dollars would basically be the windows as they are So which sounds like it's not a desirable I I I'm strongly against leaving the masses So may I just say I was I'm now just a little Uncertain because I thought in the building committee It was said that if we don't replace them, we would repair them and I thought the idea was that But again, I may be wrong that this 150,000 Contemplated some repair of the window sashes Or did I did I mishear that In the building committee I just don't think that was determined at the time. Yeah, right, I think sorry great go ahead So I uh the the exact wording from the cost estimators is Leave existing windows to remain So my interpretation is that that No work would be done to those windows Okay, thank you. Thank you for the clarification. So what we could do To george's point is Get a number or you know work up a number an allowance of what we would think it would cost to refurbish those windows And probably put new storms on the outside or on the inside and see where that number comes out to Yeah, I think that'd be really helpful for that number And how hard is that number to get can that be for the building committee? um I think that's something that cost estimators could um come up with pretty quickly But I suspect it would be a situation where like george said where That 170 000 will pretty quickly evaporate or you know be significantly reduced if you touch it. Yeah, if you start touching them So not work well Not work like if you if it costs even a hundred thousand dollars to refurbish them all is it worth saving seven could be Well, the other thing it You know, is there another another funding source for these? But I think we're probably using every funding source we can get So is it a big deal to ask the uh estimator to do this and we just we could as a committee I propose just say We want to accept this But are waiting to hear What it would cost to refurbish them and then the building committee can decide at that point I suspect that the cost estimators can give us uh prices in advance of our upcoming lbc meeting um And we can plug them in here and and sort of a 6a or 6.1 To repair but not replace when you when you guys made the recommendation just to just to Drill on this one when you guys made the recommendation That we could save mon's money by not replacing the window sashes on a building that's um You know, as george said the window sashes are what they are What were you contemplating for? You know the life of those window sashes. I mean, what was the cost or was was there any thought given to We just keep the window sashes there and deal with them as they break Right It was actually this was an idea that was uh that came from the cost estimators Specifically rlb. We said what can we do possibly to save money? And what a natural thing is all right, you've got existing windows there. It's not like an opening Just leave them you know obviously for the new windows we you know We don't have something existing that we can just leave so Yeah, that was just in what what he sort of thought of as a A way to save some money you're giving up some value. No doubt Um But yeah, I'm some value and you're you're we're spending a lot of money to have old windows that are going to need repair. That's the So that is christine christine I think probably the best thing to do with this one right is to put a question mark so to speak right Around it pending whatever information that the estimator to come back with what it would cost to Furbished them. Yep. That's what I propose. Are we are the four of us? Yep I know george was against this. Are you okay with that for now george to move it forward. Oh, yeah I'm fine with that. Um You know, I I would like to hear what the cost estimator say i'm skeptical that it's going to make a compelling argument to take this out But I'd like to see an estimate anyways. Great. Yep. That should be easy Good Sharon you good Yep, thank you. Okay, so move that so number seven So the yes number seven. Um, so the existing slate roof is in need of repair We we we've heard that um Instead of replacing it in kind with another new slate roof Replace it with a less expensive roofing system, which would be a standing seam metal Uh, we have this one listed as not plausible Um Fine gold alexander does not think that the amorous, uh, historical Yeah commission or the mass historic commission would Yeah Yeah One thing I'm I'm wondering if it's worth checking Craig and I'm just thinking that while we're sitting here. There is What we call synthetic slate, right? It's fake slate And if we could get a number for that and you know when we do go in front of The historic commission will they approve it? I don't know it depends I did want to ask about that. Thank you Is that another meter thing that they could get? Certainly um Given my experience going before the historical commission on three occasions to have roof repairs done They are very very specific On replacing exact in kind so I honestly feel that that would be a non-starter with the local Okay, you you would know George. Yeah, I I've had three separate jcpc projects with roof repairs And they literally even wanted to see samples of the shape of the slate So I I just think it's a non-starter Okay So we'll leave that one where it is Okay, great Um next item is eight. Um So instead of our sawtooth skylights sawtooth roof monitors you can call them Removing those and instead having typical unitized skylights Sounds like we've already paid that price Actually, I'm sorry you have Mblc reminds us that every time Actually, sorry, so this would not include unitized skylights. This would just be removing the sawtooth We have a little, you know lost in translation between the Process mirrors list in this list. This would just be removing the sawtooth skylights and having blank or flat roof That's number eight Yeah, so there is no skylight replacement. You're saying flat roof which If we could pull up the rendering and If the designers could just talk about, you know, the rendering we're looking at is not what it would look like if we go with the clt and Which are we talking about the all of it? Like there's the sawtooth, but then there's the skylight that runs down the middle and That still exists So that would still stay there as far as I know craig correct. It's only the sawtooth I believe so it just says eliminate sawtooth at roof And What does mblc feel about the sawtooth skylights? They they just don't want skylights They right they just they're like water leaking. Okay, right because apparently they told The jones library back then not to do a skylight And they bring it up every time So it would already be pushing the envelope because you got the middle one leave that and then you got the sawtooth ones I'm just saying so if they did go away Would it look more like that clt ceiling that you showed us earlier ellen Where it's high ceiling with all the wood and you got a few conduits and lights running around It would it would be flat it would have a different feel for sure But um, I don't know what the floor to ceiling is here josephine. It's it's probably 11 feet 12 feet Yeah, we have a good ceiling height. It wouldn't feel too low But you would lose all of that sunlight I know and i'm only playing devil's advocate with this because it's a half million dollar number. Yes number so from the other three um What you think yeah, I don't think we can accept This at this point because of for the same reason that we couldn't accept one and one and two You know, it's it's a part of our sustainability goals So I say we reject this Yeah, i'm i'm or we're sharing especially for the sustainability aspect because you're also eliminating the ability to have solar panels up there Well, you could still do solar panels george, but they'd be on their own wrath. Right? They would look awful. Yeah Different look so the sustainability out because these face north I mean they give a little diffuse light, but it's not a sustainable thing except that they're going to hold up solar panels down the road Well, it's also natural lighting and yeah a lot of other things that contribute to their Sustainability, right? It's not just the fact that you're getting. Yeah, it's bringing in a soft light, but then it also has the south facing panel or future panel location So it's for possible future solar And it's a soft natural light instead of having some low-cost LEDs Yeah, I'm sorry. Can you clarify? I thought we were definitely getting pvs up there Are they I don't I think we're pv ready just me not we I think it's pv ready Really? Our intent of course was that they would have panels, but I just don't know where we are with that great. Was that included? I thought we've been clear about those being included like since day one since the sustainability Efforts were approved I we can double check that Sharon, but if they are we can we should consider taking them off for now As a ve value management thing and you could do them if they're pv ready you can do them after I mean because to Christine's point something's got to give And we know what can't And it's just we're all in a tough spot All right, so I I just checked the cost estimate and they At least rlb excludes photovoltaics So as ellen was saying the building would be photovoltaic ready But would but this 38 million dollars does not actually include those solar panels And we could go either way Sharon sometimes we do have them as part of the project Sometimes the client prefers to do that Separately because they don't have the contractor overhead costs They they go directly to Whoever's doing the solar panels all over the place that vendor Thank you so I think that One of the reasons why I think we should not accept this this possibility is again for reasons of design Um I think that one of the things that's going to make this library quite extraordinary Is the the kind of um lighter feel of the inside of this building And right from the beginning. I thought that was a kind of very interesting and important A feature of the design work that this is going to be a kind of light It's going to be a building filled with kinds of light natural light and I like it and I would like to Um like to preserve that that strikes me as an important part of the design of the Of the of the building and what the feel of the building will be so I do think it looks beautiful, but coming at this as a Engineer and a library student. I just finished a public libraries class and You don't want skylights over your stacks. That's a fact I think the skylight down the middle is beautiful If we are paying the money for the clt to open it up and have this very green sustainable building I again put my hopes in josephine And ellen to be able to maybe open up more windows on the side You know, we toured some libraries. We went in to both uber and um like medford if you look at those They did have a skylight in their Lobby, but there's no skylights in where the people actually live They just had windows and I found those faces very Lovely, I think we're just looking it's really like this is what I'd want to live in but again Something's got to give i'm just trying to play devil's advocate here because it's big dollar amount and we get to show off the clt It's how you sell it We can table this with the one and two. I mean, they're all tied together I guess craig. I had a question. Um, you said that the skylight I'm running along the spine. Um, that wasn't eliminated and I was thinking that it was originally Um, but that is a pretty large expansive skylight that we have there so It would probably be good to Just look at potentially um You know what that what that element is. I don't know if we keep it separate or not, but I thought that was part of the initial number Luminum frame custom skylight They skylight system and saw to So at least rlb has two line items One being for the saw to One being for the what they're terming an aluminum framed custom skylight, which is that The closest one to us in this rendering And that is this one Yeah, and so I believe based on the description that would remain and it's just the sawtooth There are seven of them. I believe that get uh, it would get removed And that's actually possibly another idea instead of seven. Um, you know reducing the quantity of saw to the skylights I think I'd be careful about that. What we can do is look at reducing This one down the spine, right? Does it have to go quite as long? I think if we maybe Reduced it by 30. What would that savings be? You know so So that skylight that we're talking about is the unfortunately is the less expense lesser Spence Um rlb has the total cost some around 50 000 for that skylight itself I know there's structure and drywall and paint and stuff that's associated with it Versus the sawtooth which come in at 345 000 Just tossing in i'm not an architect engineer here saying can you Be felt that center wants since it is less expensive and make two of them are bigger and then Produce the sawtooth Yeah, we could do that. I think We can do anything In terms of what what you want to bring natural light in but I think it's important to get because the floor plate is so big here We want to get natural light in I and I want to I'm going to say this and maybe I shouldn't is We can we can We can take this as Either way either it stays or it goes but Just being We can carry this into dd as an alternate price Correct Skylights yeah We can I mean if if we're going about it that the sawtooth would be One option or the base and then that yeah nation of that would be alternate one for instance Which be both? No, just I think all flat but we would have to I think we would make this one wider. I mean Skylights in the end, you know, they they're maintenance these these sawtooths are less maintenance But I don't know I don't know how to It's an aesthetic thing, right? That's what it that's to me what it is aesthetic and then light filled interior right And then just to remember that the more Skylights we may put on the roof the less room you have for future Yeah, pvs panels down the road But if there's no Sawtooth you just could put solar on that in the stretch Yeah, on yeah on their own frames their frames What we're doing again what we did on three four and five or we're making you design on the fly Yeah, right. So can we also loop this in for you all to talk amongst yourselves give us some thought and figure out how What You're breaking up options where we could save some money If you could relook at this and think amongst yourselves for a way that maybe one or two options to offer the building committee or the us again How to save some money Well, we gave you that the saving the most money. We just gave you it's taking the those off and how much is that craig? Half a million half a million. Yeah, half a million. So Could you reduce that and save 250,000? I'm sure I'm sure we could I'm sure we could if the but that is that if that's the marching orders We want to get rid of the sawtooth and we want to save 250,000 rather than 500,000 But it's a design christine. We start designing this thing I'd like to hear um, Sharon george. What are your thoughts of whole removal? I know it's a lot or half removal or other options Personally, I mean I'm not in favor of losing the sawtooth roof just because a lot of people uh Are going to mourn the loss as as awful as it is a lot of people are going to mourn the loss of the pyramid of the original building and this kind of ties into it and I think if we made That drastic of a change I would have concerns about Some people who may have pledged money for this project not liking that change plus the factor with The natural lighting and how that affects the sustainability of project So I would not be in favor of getting rid of them Yeah, the sustainability committee has made it very clear that that shouldn't be something that's taken off our plates right now So did mblc. Okay these sawtooth or like yeah, they don't like them, but they say they don't like no They don't like skylights They horizontal yes horizontal that they like the sawtooth because it was it brings light into this large floor plate And they would discourage us from doing skylights So we have seven of them What if we went with four or three or just not over the stacks just over where people sit and read because I get that it's like i'm not gonna Necessarily be in love like need the skylight over the stacks, but where i'm sitting and enjoying my book. It is a beautiful thing to have the sky But then you wouldn't see it from the street If if the if people are worried about the aesthetics of this on the outside I don't think they're worried about the out george. Are you saying that they want the outside look or the inside look I'm saying when they walk into the library and they see Life Because you can't see you can't see the atrium from the outside of the building No, but you can see the saw and the renderings you can see the sawtooth right right no i'm i'm talking about okay from inside the library So what if we focus them even through it like over the reading areas rather than over the stacks I would probably mblc would probably like that too And it looks like there's five of them there. So five or seven So there's five on that wing and then what you can't see from this rendering is the The northeast wing and there are two large ones on that as well Josephine on the northeast wing is the Floor plate as deep as it is on the other wing Is the floor plate as deep? What do you mean as far as is it from the west the length? Yes, I don't think it's the same one. No, okay, so could we get Give by with one skylight on that northwest wing I don't know. I don't know. This is this is we're going down the design tunnel So can we table this and you give it some thought and maybe come up with a couple of options to bring back to us With savings right what I can't do Christine is I can't do the design right now So we Craig can tell us hey you guys We have to cut half of the the sawtooth and that's what we can give you a number for that We have to cut two of the sawtooth. Okay But we can't tell you what it will look like And now I just don't want it to be an all or nothing when we look at this this value management list You know, it's all or nothing. I'm trying to find wiggle room. Where can we save some money and still have what we want? But just maybe not all of it. Yep. I'm just Okay, so that would be that one want to move to number nine Craig Sure thing All right, number nine actually Is a decorative metal railing in lieu of glass railing. So uh, Josephine if you flash back to that previous image Where these two folks are in the rendering a reading and sort of wrapping all around that's uh, glass railing and um You can have a railing that it's not the exact same look, but it's a decorative metal railing For a savings of somewhere around $85,000 I don't think there's any loss Again, we're gonna be interested in seeing what it would look like I don't think there's any loss in substituting The decorative metal for the glass. I think the glass is lovely. I think it's a It's a wonderful thing, but I don't think it goes to maintain the integrity of the building in any way I agree with Austin. I agree too. And also Less glass to clean. Oh, yeah I knew you were gonna say it Finger print Yep, put away some of that Windex budget. Um Okay, so we're set on that one. Can we Do that one. I'll switch over to accepted as a recommendation Great and moved number 10 standard operable wall in lieu of nano wall right and so there are A couple locations within the building where The design team is included folding partitions that are glazed fully glazed and nano walls like the brand name This $50,000 represents swapping that out for What you've probably seen in conference rooms or some classrooms Standard opaque folding partition, which you know again this cost estimator is just looking for places where you could save money the design team has advised that There is a function to having that glass there so that you know supervision is one of the big things and the mblc has been requesting in this new design Sightline supervision and so this one of the nano walls was in the teen area, I believe or the youth Literature area Space you know a desire to kind of be able you know for staff to be able to see through and see what's going on even when that's Walls deployed But so can I say can we just get rid of them all together? Uh, because you're right those plastic folding they're awful a they don't stop sound They're they're basically pretty worthless. So why have them in at all? It just means so if you go to the higher end version um, so they do They are nicer than say What you're used to saying. Yeah, no, I'm saying let's not have dividers at all Ellen and Josephine Off the top of your heads. Do you think that works sort of programmatically? Or I think you had mentioned maybe Shelving units or something else to kind of divide the space Right, but I think the mission from mblc is Visibility so it's really program based so we put them in because the program was wanting something like that Wait, so tell me in the teen maker space. So the woodbury room the large meeting room, you know We have one of those now. You don't you just don't need a divider You're only going to use the woodbury room if you need a space that houses, you know 150 to 200 people so you don't need a divider But regarding the teen maker space explain to me where that divider is going It's I'll let you say just things. Yeah, I can club a plan Just everybody's looking at the same thing So in the young adult area, this is where we were showing that nano also we were separating this out For the workroom space Kind of just be a wall. Can it be a wall? You're going to want glass in it We could have it as double doors that open up four of them, right? We could have a fixed glazed wall with double That would be great and then get rid of the one in the woodbury room all together Okay, did I just save a million dollars? No, we wish Those glass doors still cost money, but yeah, I think this is the other one here Right, right There you go. I think this was the other one in the youth nonfiction Oh, yeah, you don't need that one at all This can just be open. Yeah Okay Now did I save a million dollars? We'll take it though. We'll take it Okay, so is that anymore number 10 or can we move on to 11 and 12? All right, 11 and 12 we touched on earlier 11 being Um, instead of the wood ceiling up at that second floor level or anywhere in the project Uh, we would just do a drop ceiling ACT acoustical ceiling tiles. So it's a it's a different look Sure, and then 12 would be on the on the first floor instead of the planks Long ceiling tiles. You just go to a two foot by two foot grid Actually just being if you have those reflective ceiling plans Um from that set you were just looking at I think that'll help people visualize scope that we're talking about And is this wood ceiling only in the big open areas like what about um staff offices and stuff? It's just ACT squares Right, so staff offices already have those The back of house has the least expensive finishes durable, but least expensive And that's already I'm just clarifying for anyone who's walked like that's already there We're you're going to point out the areas that these ceilings were proposed So this is the first floor This is level one So this was the area that we had shown exposed just because we weren't sure of the level of clt exposure We were going to be aiming for But the rest of it is showing that ACT that The plank craig was just referring to yeah the plank right so the southeast corner has got the two by two That's the sort of staff area And then so that pattern would Be everywhere on this floor And then we're just showing some clouds right now at the um sir tests But with the not to cloud this Discussion, but if if this all goes to clt if we keep clt You can reduce this Significantly, right this can all be eliminated all the main spaces. I wouldn't say all josephine I think we're still going to want to hide the actual units Um, but all the duct work all that it's going to be exposed Right, which is just part of the look that's awesome to the point that i only made a while back Some of the smaller spaces we might still want to just keep the Ceiling that we weren't initially showing like yeah, so we would in some highlighted areas like a near the circulation desk or something you said Right, we might want a cloud there or something different some of the the noise offices back of house spaces And of course the existing building would still have ceiling So I think I heard sharon positive there, but george and um austin what are your feelings about exposing maximum clt and seeing duct work I'm I'm totally on board with that because I think a it will save money And b it will show the clt that everybody wants to see and also I mean There's something to be said for accessibility Duct work and protocols and things like that down the road Um, I certainly see the value in putting it in certain places where uh, you know for for acoustic value and things like that But for the most part, I mean, I just I just feel like it's a no-brainer So I I kind of agree, but it maybe only a half-brainer for me. So my question actually is for ellen and And josephine one of the questions that I have is the transition as I move from the Historic building into the new addition And what thinking uh, what what is your thinking about? The experience of moving from the old building into the new building So the old building of course is nothing exposed Nothing intentionally exposed in in ceilings And I uh, again, I'm not an architect. I just want to hear what you have to say about the transition So is it going to be just it's kind of there? I'm in the building with the ceiling and now I'm in the building where the duct work is exposed or is there some Is there some kind of transition That you will imagine I don't think there's a transition Austin to be honest um We can work that through but I think from a stark point of view you're going to want You know the historic building to be what it is It always has been and then the this new piece will have the exposed Utilities essentially thank thanks for the answer Okay, pritchett, you know I'm I'm I'm good So we're good with moving, uh 11 and 12 into the accepted and recommend that to the whole committee So I think so it sounds like everyone's comfortable with this exposing more of the clt Correct and therefore you might even reduce this right get get get more of the savings because maybe you need to reduce some of the ceiling coverage right So this is actually one and two and 11 and 12 yes And so then that those remaining ceilings if if people if they're very small then I don't think it would matter if it's plank You know plank tiles versus two by two Right, but I don't understand christine. You said it includes one or two one and two One and two is the clt that were as a group saying We're we're keeping guessing the clt But we are encouraging you all to design it in Showing it off saving some money and then we can reduce The ceilings showing us Yes, got it Good. All right. So the next one this one. I can't even believe this is on the list. This just makes me shiver This is craig's fault. It's not us All right, kill the site, but then I'm like what no hvc Right no special hvc. It would just be the building hvc So, you know, we have this listed as not plausible. You've got Special collection materials, they're valuable there you want to preserve them That's why the system was designed as it's designed. It is a potentially juicy savings but you know, there is a significant reduction in value It part of the library is not just people coming and reading and getting books, but it's a repository of your special collections Um, any of the other three. Do you have any strong feelings on this? Um, George I I absolutely agree and I would also add that, you know, there's a considerable amount of historic preservation funds earmarked for the special collections department and I think Changing the design of the hvc to just be traditional Would jeopardize that funding Good point Anybody else? Yeah, we have to reject that Okay, so is that Austin you good? Yes. Okay, so we'll move that one over and we'll move to item 14, which is another big number Yes, so um the and actually josephine while we're talking about this would you please pull up the landscape drawing So in the base cost estimate, um, you've got a mixture of stone and granite pavers Um, you know pathways patios walking areas Areas, you know, basically all the hardscape is, um stone and granite pavers There are two levels Of saving one is to go from stone and granite to brick pavers And that would yield a 410,000 somewhere around 410,000 savings Another way is instead of brick You go to concrete And so you you can't uh 14 and 15 we can't do both it's one or the other, uh brick pavers Sort of in that the hierarchy of niceness, you know concrete is serviceable And you know it works One step up is brick pavers and another step up is granite stone pavers Cost estimate includes that highest level right now Uh, you can see I believe it's all the areas that are shaded gray For the most part, so maybe the darker gray. I believe it was the, um stone I think I know what george is gonna say on this Well, well, I I have a couple things but I guess I also want a clarification Focusing on the front entrance Now we're going to be making that handicap accessible by adding that horseshoe so to speak um Do we know if we're going to preserve the existing granite sidewalk and repurposing it up there? Or are there going to be too many changes to do that? The sidewalk Yeah, we're not touching the sidewalk Okay, the front walkway the front walkway. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's that's being switched out okay In this in this plan. Okay, and honestly I think it has been proven but I could get a confirmation on that that that slate front walkway Is not original that it was added at some point Uh, so I don't think anybody could argue that we were changing something historical um So I guess my follow-up on that is that you know, um Concrete is a lot easier to maintain in the winter and it doesn't move like brick does um And considering we have so much of it Um, I would I would be inclined towards at the very least Even if there was an argument everything but the front let it be concrete um I don't know aesthetically what the front would look like done in concrete But I just feel it's easier to maintain and it it's saving a lot of money We do it all the time george in concrete. Yeah I just I just think it's saving so much money And as someone who has had to shovel brick sidewalks It's an awful thing in New England. Right. It looks pretty but it's awful Agreed Austin Sharon Yeah, we got to go concrete So my I just had one quick question. Um Is it possible to do uh different treatments in different places To to do the more expensive thing at the front and then concrete elsewhere Or does that make no sense? I'll just jump in but we we definitely could do different treatment I think we would want to be strategic in how we you know in what we choose but we could definitely have our landscape engineers um landscape architects look at that and Figure out the best places for yeah, so I just think uh, I'm I'm happy to kind of move this into the kind of accepted Category but I'd really like to just get a sense of um You know where someone might say gee you want to keep the more expensive More expensive Could we do like the front entrance as an alternate and more expensive materials? Yeah, and I we can do that Yeah, just just to just to kind of keep that conversation alive because I I do think there is some Um, there's something aesthetically to having Given the slate roof. I mean I something I think to look at it's the the front entrance done differently but In general george's argument. I think is quite persuasive I I wouldn't go to I wouldn't go to brick I wouldn't go to brick. I mean the college the town invested in these brick Beautiful brick things which look beautiful for like four minutes Now they look like some of them are a little sunken and some of them are a little so I I would I I think it's good if we're gonna go away that we not think about brick so I would I'd be inclined to accept the concrete and want to hear what the alternatives might might be So I I completely agree with that. I love concrete But I know as you add other elements even like a brick edging like whenever you have a mix That's what happened with the amor sidewalks. The water gets in and it freezes and it breaks things up Yeah, but I did want to ask the designers and I don't know cost like I have a Stamped concrete walkway in front of my house. I also had it died I know if those are expensive options, you know, there's some really nice Like could some of it be stamped or you know, like especially that center walkway. Does anyone ever do that? We don't see that as much anymore In the colored concrete We've done in the past the problem is the consistency of of it One batch is going to be one's color. The other batch is going to be another color So it's it's a little bit tough, but it could be done. That adds cost It does that so are there any what other other alternatives that art brick or Brick concrete bituminous. That's your options. Oh god. Yeah, no, we can do better than bituminous So can we move this to the uh, accepted austin? Yes. Yes. Yes, great because that 575 is a big number. Yeah um So the next one is would be christine. I'm sorry before we go on Do you want to say like 20% of the area will be a nicer material? And so then what we could do is just apply a an 80% Factor to this so see i'm confused. What is the nicer material then that we're considering? It would be like a stone or a granite George, what do you think do you want 20 of its donor granite? I mean my my suggestion was to make the front entrance an alternate Yeah And I agree with that that makes a lot of sense And that's like a stone. So So we're proposing the front walk still be a stone the existing one will be taken out and a new one will be put in and the rest of It's concrete right As an alternate the face alternate is an all basis concrete Correct. Yes Sounds good So, um, I can plug in some numbers um ellen and josephine if you could I wouldn't I you know what craig I would take that full amount and then we'll indeed we're gonna have a number as an alternate. Yes, great Very good. Awesome. Great Sorry to cut you off. I didn't want to get down a rabbit hole. Yeah, that makes it easy All right Typical CMU open trash enclosure ILO siding and rough right so in the in the Current design there. It's like a little house for the the trash and recycling area It's got a roof over it. And so you can save a little bit of money by just doing a CMU, you know, three-sided um You know visual screen basically Can you explain what CMU as to people? Oh, uh concrete basement unit. Um, so This is not gonna look nice. It's almost like we want to buy what's that shed company that advertises all the time Reed's fairy. Reed's fairy. Why don't we get a Reed's fairy shed for you know, yeah a few thousand bucks. Yeah Better than the CMU because but when you In that because I know george your concern was that you have like lawnmowers and snow snowblowers that need to be Enclosed right yeah, well See that that that's where i'm a little confused because I was under the impression that this was strictly for trash and recycling and my my question to that was going to be well How do they empty a dumpster if it's an enclosed unit? um, but yeah, we would need something Okay, I got confused too. I apologize. Yeah, we would need something that is secureable but also fireproof because if we're putting Gas power equipment in it. It would have to meet whatever fire codes What have you? In the where is it now it's in the shed which is going to be gone But is it fireproof? um, it's It's it's it's also grandfathered. Yeah, it's it's it's it's a it's a steel frame with a with With a brick exterior um I mean, we've been moving towards electric things, but a snowblower. Yeah, just not a not an option So because there's because there's no fireproof um Storage in the building itself. We would need something. It doesn't have to be large Uh, but we would need something Bank was your number assuming the whole thing I think what we originally sized to this We did it with the with the consideration that we may have a snow plow in it, which that isn't going to be an option Uh going forward. So we might even be able to reduce the size of it This is cmu Yes, but it's got siding on it as well. So and and a slope roof and so Our lb suggestion was take off the siding take off the slope roof and and then Save six and five thousand I think you need sorry. I'm sorry You could put I think you could maybe just slope the roof one way Because you're walking on it currently is I think you're gonna want it sloped Yeah, currently you've got a a single pitch slope roof And you know to realize these savings it would be Um switching to something that's open to the sky Nothing too special, but it is kind of at the front so Right it has to look nice So why don't we target some savings that will get out of this, right? Because I think you're gonna want Um We don't have to heat this It doesn't have to be heated. Um Electrical it would need electrical needs electric. Yeah. Yeah, because that's potentially where we'll also be putting the charging unit for the the van um But I think the size I don't recall what the square footage is on that but when we originally specced it out for the program We made it big enough to handle an eight foot snow plow, which Again, we're we're not going that route anymore. So I'm thinking the overall size of it could be reduced and maybe that's where the savings could be It makes sense And do you have a dump? Do you have a dumpster or is it? Yeah, okay. We have a dumpster and we have uh, we have external uh recycling Uh barrels Okay, what is the ilo siding? Is that like a hardy board? No in lieu of Open trash enclosure in lieu of siding and roof so So you take off the roof you take off the siding and now you've got concrete masonry unit, you know cinder block um and open to the sky So the ilo I i'm unfamiliar with that. Is that pricey? I guess I was asking is there a cheaper That's in lieu of that. That's an acronym for in lieu of Oh, thank you. No wonder why I don't know that kind of siding in low so but could we Is there a less expensive siding? I mean The cmu no That's the cheapest. Yep Because it has to be fireproof And it will still look nice No, it's gonna. Let's paint the cmu I was trying to find a photo of one, but I think let's get off this. I think they're I think we can Save some money. Maybe we save Two-thirds of that Because we're you know working with george and dd. We can reduce the size. Yeah, I think we can Which that's smart. So great add that to another one of the redesigning And I maybe we you don't need the windows in there george. I mean, that's not a lot of money, but no I don't yeah. Yeah, I agree um All right, so that one we're accepting and it's gonna be redone so uh number 17 eliminate rain garden 78 and a half thousand dollars Justine, what was the story on that from um the landscape folks? Well, the question was um that was thrown to them was just if it was aesthetics or not And they confirmed that it wasn't aesthetics, but they just don't know right now how much they need Um for runoff until they get more testing and investigations done during dd That makes sense So it might reduce on its own a little or it's probably what it is It's an approximate right because great you just based that number is just based off of what was in the documents Well, that's the whole number, right? So we we're gonna need a We're gonna need a portion of that. We're not quite sure what yet Right Yeah, so the reason why we've got this one listed as not plausible. It's more like we don't know at this point Yeah, so we can't cash in on those savings until we know more And that's just and we see how it goes Just just to be clear this was just brought up I think at the time at one of the meetings someone from the sustainability committee had commented on Can we eliminate rain garden because maybe they're aesthetic, but they're not aesthetic So they're functioning put this into the not not possible. They weren't putting it there for decorative reasons I want to clarify. So can we remove the word eliminate and change to Reduce rain garden and leave it as possible And we'll just see as design goes down if they Needed it as large as what they were doing or we pick up that change in the design development estimate Because by then Christine will know yeah size right, okay Right. So I think we we don't add any we don't add to our savings right now But we keep in mind that we'd like to reduce it if possible Yes, that makes sense. All right. So the next one has a funny number These are these are the next two are add alternates. These are sort of carrying forward to energy conservation measures So these would be presumably add alternates Things that were adding to the sustainability or the the Energy efficiency of the building and these are old numbers. Unfortunately, you know, these these values 1.3 million and 200,000 those are from a cost estimate back in october of 2020 Neither cost estimator put new new prices to those So just just to remind ourselves these things were not included in the design This is an add-on. So my suggestion is that we just leave it right where it is as as an as an all, you know kind of Alternate if money falls from the sky Yes Ask one question about the alternate Um Does it have to be an all or nothing on triple blaze or you know, yes It is because I was thinking about oh no is on the north side or a lot colder than Maybe on the west side You could mix a match Christine. You absolutely could It's just a big ticket item. That's the only reason why I asked. Oh, sure. No, I'm understood Okay, so will that be considered when we consider it as an alternate? It's not just an all or nothing or Well, I Well, when we when we entered into fd's We had that ecm list and these two were highlighted a different color and Basically, the understanding was if if we had money and we could potentially reduce the ui further We would study these in dd And and so that's sort of how we Ended that sustainability sustainability goal session and started sd's And if I skipped the next one the window overhang could you show on a rendering so people understand what that is Well, we don't have that in the room. Yeah, but we're not explain where they I know what they are but like where they go and the function that they They have a function. They're not just for looks So, um, I think originally we were envisioning let me try and pull up the front rendering Along this path here That we would have some type of overhang along This, you know, north south axis And is it a solid overhang or is it like a hargala like I we see them on UMass, you know and Yeah, could I make could I make a could I just make a suggestion? Um, and Obviously, whatever it is you want to do it. It's about six fifteen Um, we've been at this for over two hours Just kind of fine. We do this for the public So I just want the public to know when they're looking at line items what a window overhang is it takes one second I know you're in a rush Christine, I am not in a rush This is hard work and it's due diligence and we're trying to save money here and But the point is we're talking about an item that would add money. Yes It is but it where I hear over and over again that this town is like really into the sustainability and I just want them to know that This is a sustainability Item, it's not an aesthetic item. It is but it is What it does is it blocks sun Yes, I'm coming directly into the library at certain parts of the day. That's what it does So which would help with the cooling load I want public to know because it's not just a pretty overhang. So thank you. Um So the others below it are rejected and I assume that that's just the way it is so would be done So, uh, those were ideas that we had sort of tossed around but Uh, didn't seem to have Didn't seem feasible to us. And so they weren't even brought up with the cost estimators But we included in there to show that, you know, we We we looked at this from every angle possible Um came up with some okay ideas some good ideas and some not so good ideas Uh, these ones fall into that last category That's great. Um, and I can see the hard work and the thought You know, as I think we said last meeting you guys have really drilled down I think Ken said it you weren't here Craig But really, you know dug down as hard and as creatively As possible and that's we really appreciate that because we're trying our best to bring the price of the building down Yeah, um, do any of the members have any other comments on this value management list? Don't hear anything. So Craig you have your list and thank you I know you all have to go back and rethink design issues and try to find some other ways we can save some money Um, the next thing on our agenda was the next meeting. So a week from thursday is the next JLB meeting at four o'clock on uh, september 8th all you powers that be Should we meet after or Should we schedule for something two weeks out? I don't know. How do you think this will go Craig at the next building community? Um, so hopefully what we'll be doing is presenting kind of the results of this discussion and seeing if the jlbc supports it Um, you know, if there are any particular things that they want to discuss in more depth um And then the next big hurdle is getting to that point of okay, we're done with schematic design And we're giving the design team the okay to move forward into design development. Once we have that then we can start setting up a um, a schedule of meetings, uh, where you know, we'll actually be talking more design stuff and less money stuff And Craig where does that fall in? And I I don't want to keep us, but we have to think about the changes that um, that we got from The staff and from Sharon where that falls into this and we don't have to take the time now We'll talk off the offline, but just so the group knows there will be some some discussion with that I don't I don't think it's adding cost For you know construction, but it's certainly adding to our time Yes, and so um Just today, uh, you know, we had just a fill of running and we had a meeting And it's sort of an offline discussion with the mblc to really dig down to get to what They want to see having to do with the layout We obviously have the information that Sharon's provided as far as what the staff would like to see And so then my recommendation we we have another kind of offline discussion with just the Sharon And see you know where we have common ground between mblc staff and try to get to something that everybody very quickly to where everybody Can accept it And so I would envision that conversation happening, you know this week or Or you know right after the holiday So that we have that information in hand before the jlbc on the 8th Okay, sounds good All right So do you see something that the design subcommittee would have to do after You know that will be requested from the building committee or and we should just wait to schedule something or Yeah, I would say let's see how things go on the 8th if everything aligns the way I'm Hoping it will Will will have confirmation on these ideas These cost saving methods and will have the blessing to move forward into design development The town manager does have to provide that in writing as part of the contract Fine gold Alexander cannot proceed until they get that in writing So I'm hoping that will happen on You know by the end of the meeting on the 8th Or first thing on night Sounds and then and then we'll set up our next meeting and you know our next designs of committee meeting and You know going forward through september october Thank you for your guidance So we'll wait on that and item five topic front anticipated by 48 hours. I don't have anything Um, so at this point item six public comment. We have only one attendee. I don't uh Oh, no one hand up. So we have four attendees and I see one hand up, uh, bob pam Wherever can we hear from mr. Pam? Do you still need us? I think you I think you can go it we have craig. So thank you so much. I know you got to go do more work. Thank you Okay, thanks guys. See you. Thank you. Thanks. There's been thank you ellen Thank you I hope you can all hear me Yes, we can hear you Okay, um listening to the discussion as you went through items one two and eight Is a kind of a package Um, a couple of things applied occurred to me one is that among the ve items not pursued You have effectively accepted number two, which is to reduce the interior finishes, especially ceilings To expose clt and mechanical systems. So if that is what you have done, you should at least acknowledge that I think Second is that in terms of where You are going you you want to maintain all of the the major features Which have been Expected and anticipated as both fundraising and as This has been described to the various people in the town It seems to me that the only item which is Still part of the plan, which is not specifically Requested by anybody but which is clearly part of the design is the what This ancelony describes as the white projection, which is the the The Windows on the north side, which extend out from the building frame If those were standard windows attached to the building frame in its normal way Would that save substantial money? And I don't know the answer to that But it seems to me that that is the one thing which has never been described as being necessary to the plan But which probably has a substantial Financial component to it I've also described in the past why I think it's possible that smaller windows which do not go floor to ceiling And which provided A space where people could sit in front of them without Being up against the glass might make it both cheaper more energy efficient and work better as a Library space So the head is my comments on that with respect to aid again the solar panels I'm a little surprised that the solar panels are gone. That was Not the way I had understood it but in any case If the design is working towards perhaps reducing the number of them And I think christine has made reasonable points about what that means in terms of putting it directly above the stacks Would it be possible instead of having Seven of them have three or four of them. But if they were taller You could get the same amount of solar panel. You could get the same amount of light But it would just have fewer openings into the roof And that might actually be a financially responsible way of doing that And the last part is with respect to number 17 just from my Walking through the library a hundred million times The entrance is at the lowest point in the back And so you'd need clearly to have some drainage Structure whether it is called a rain garden or whether you just need a lot more piping to to make sure water doesn't flood the basement One way or another that is a critical issue. So Those are the main points that I would raise and I thank you for letting me speak Thank you Thank you. So there are some good points there Craig if you could just transfer them to The designers that would be great. We'll do So Last thing we will adjourn. Thank you all that was hard work Glad to have you back