 Okay, it's 3 p.m. and we're talking about Think Tech Asia here on Think Tech Hawaii. And we have Russell Hamna. He is the senior APEC official, senior U.S. APEC official in Hawaii. And he is also a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize Award, which is really something. Welcome to the show, Russell. Yeah. Thank you, Jay, for inviting me. It's a good subject today, because I would like to talk about what's happening with the Korean peninsula with the recent meeting that Moon Jae-in and Kim Man-un had a meeting at the peace house at the 38 parallel. And I know that sometimes... And the Secretary of State is over there right now, do you know that? Exactly. He and North Korean Konyang are trying to orchestrate the meeting with Donald Trump and Kim Man-un, hopefully they're going to have it at the 38 parallel. But they haven't decided exactly when the time and the date is going to be. I'm sure they're going to have that announcement eventually. I thought they were going to have it in some, you know, middle-of-the-road place, a safe haven city somewhere outside of Korea. No, you think it'll be at the 38th parallel? I think they're had discussion that they're thinking of doing it like in Singapore or in Mongolia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And prior to that, we wanted to do it in Hawaii, and since there's been a neutral location here, but I guess that might happen later on. But I think right now, they're trying to see what the logistics is going to be about the meeting. I know it's amazingly focused, is to de-nuclearize their nuclear missiles and weapons of mass destruction. Yeah, I'm going to talk to you about that. But if you have any say in this, you could tell them that all of them, they should come down to the studio here. We'd like to have a talk show with them, especially with Donald Trump, because we have some questions for him. And if he wants to bring Rudy Giuliani with him, it's OK. We have some questions for him, too. OK? You can be my co-host in that show, Russell. Yeah, that'd be interesting if that really happens. But most likely, it probably won't. But we'd like to have Michael Pompey, the new Secretary of State, come to Hawaii. He's over there right now. Yeah, and maybe he can stop over in Hawaii and maybe speak to us at the East West Center. That would be great. And like all of his past Secretary of State has done. Don't hold your breath. I don't know. I don't know. I'm wondering if he's signed off on the emergency aid for Kauai request that David E. Gay made. I'm not sure. We haven't heard that the White House has agreed to that yet. We're going to see what happens. Yeah, I know that you're trying to get some of that FEMA money. And hopefully, the officials can go there and make the assessment on the damages. And I remember, prior to that, like in Kauai, when they had that big flat there, I know that FEMA came in, and they're going to be making some assistance there. Yeah, I hope they get around to it soon. Anyway, so let's talk about Korea. So it looks like something's happening. They've got the Secretary of State flying over there to lay the foundation. But you've been associated with diplomatic efforts before, especially in connection with APEC. And I wonder if you could tell our listeners what it takes to make a summit like this. What kind of groundwork do you have to do? What kind of ramp up do you have to be engaged in to have a successful summit? Yeah, if you look at the history, you know, we've been trying to do this for the past 50s or 65 years, besides when they had that Amnesty Treaty in 1953, which Kim and Sung, at the time being the grandfather of the Supreme Leader of Kim and Noon. And prior to that, his father, Kim and Il. I remember when Kim and Il met Kim Jae in the former President of South Korea in year 2000 at Pongyang. And that was a breaking kind of meeting. And matter of fact, Kim Jae had won the Nobel Peace Prize back then, just having that effort making the meeting. So hopefully, in the past, we've been having all these six nation security talks with the United Nations. And maybe this time around, hopefully, maybe the Nobel Peace Prize or the Nobel Institute can get involved. And I heard in a great find that... I mean, give an award to somebody. Exactly. They might give it to Moon Jae-in and Kim and Noon as a dual kind of Nobel Peace Prize candidate. After the rascal that he's been for him to get a Nobel Peace Prize, that would be interesting. But anyway, okay, so what do you have to do to ramp up for a summit like this? It sounds to me that you've got to get your assistance on the Secretary of State and the State Department and, for that matter, Kim Jong-un's assistance. And they've got to prepare the issues and briefing memos about every issue. They've got to prepare strategies, negotiating strategies on how to handle every issue. And then they've got to deal with the other side. They've got to send them an email or whatever and say what they want to talk about and at least their opening position and why. I wouldn't call it litigation, although it kind of is, where you have to prepare with a big sort of negotiating book. And it involves a lot of research. Now, traditionally, Donald Trump has been known to not prepare for meetings. He just goes off, you know, he goes off and without any preparation. I mean, is that going to be different now? I think in the day, I know that when April 27th when Kim and Moon and Moon Jae-in met at 38th parallel at the DMZ Zone at the Peace House, they just signed a memorandum understanding to do necrolize the Korean peninsula. And hopefully they're hugging with each other and they're crossing over the 38th parallel and holding hands together. And they even planted a peace tree there and within the DMZ Zone. Yeah, but we're going to do it. And hopefully. So now I think now they're kind of, I know that Kim and Moon met Zizi Ping in China in Dailang. It's the northeast of China. There's support there because I guess Zizi Ping went there because they wanted to have a grand opening for the new aircraft carrier that they're coming out with. At the same time, they met Kim and Moon there and hopefully Kim Jong-un wanted to report to Zizi Ping what's happened with the meeting under April 27th. Now they're trying to refocus with the meeting with Donald Trump coming up. Don't you think that that meeting they had together, Xi Jinping and Kim Jong-un a couple of weeks ago was to talk about this summit that Trump is trying to organize? Isn't that doesn't it have to be the subject of that discussion? I think that was in the discussion as well. I don't know that from the United States point of view with China. We've still got to resolve some of the trade issue with some of the tariffs. And I know that we have our trade representatives and specialists working on the deal. We didn't have tariffs with Kim Jong-un. We have no trade with him. Zero trade. Exactly. Embargo trade. Exactly. Trade with him is probably violating the law. So he's not concerned about tariffs. Yeah, they'll be going against about the United Nations Security Council's resolution. So hopefully, you know, I know that North Korea because they're hungry, they're starving to death and they don't have the energy. They're having problem getting their crude oil, especially it's wintertime. So I know that they wanted to break grounds. And I think that when they had the Olympics, the Winter Olympics, that kind of helped them out. And they realized that, hey, we've got to do something about the situation here. And I think that kind of led to this... You think that he's had some sort of apotheosis here that Kim Jong-un has realized, seen the light? Surely it wasn't because of the Olympics, though, because the Olympics was not all that fabulous success for him. In fact, his teams were embedded in the South Korean teams. I don't know. On a sports level, it wasn't a big deal. But I suppose on a public relations level, he showed that he could behave himself for a little while. But my question is, how serious is he about this? I mean, he says, for example, that he might even demilitarize, denuclearize North Korea. You know, he hasn't followed through... North Korea hasn't followed through any of those premises before. Why should we assume that he will follow through on them now? I think we get our intelligence saying that besides the nuclear site that they want to denuclearize, actually that area for that nuclear site is not working anymore for them. So maybe they're trying to fool us in that way. So I think we have to approach this very carefully and make sure we give that maximum pressure still until things does happen. So I know that when the Donald Trump, our president had a discussion with Zizi Ping about that, they're still going to keep the maximum pressure until everything's being resolved. 100% denuclearization is completed. Hopefully we get our UN inspectors there to investigate that. Right. Let me suggest a scenario to you, though. So let's assume they have this meeting. Although to me, it's not clear they will. And we'll hold that thought for another minute from now. Let's assume they have this meeting and they actually cut a deal. And it says that Kim Jong-un is going to stop doing nuclear development. In fact, he's going to denuclearize his military. At the same time, he's going to get benefits from the U.S. He's going to be off the embargo list. He won't have sanctions anymore. They'll be trade with South Korea. Gee, they'll have food. They'll have trade and money and economic activity. And it'll be nirvana, theoretically. And they signed an agreement. Signed an agreement, in fact. The question, you know, Donald Trump should be into evaluating this kind of thing, because this is the kind of evaluation he went through before deciding to pull a plug on the Iran deal. He doesn't feel the Iran deal gives us, you know, appropriate protections that our inspectors really can't find out and that the Iranians are building nuclear weapons no matter what they said they would do and so forth. Don't we have the same exact problem with Kim Jong-un? How are we going to know that the inspectors are getting the necessary information to give us comfort that he is doing what he said and what he promised he would do? How do we know that? Because there's a fair chance, you know, he lied. A fair chance that he made an agreement he knew he wasn't going to keep. Yeah, that might be kind of catch-22. You've got to kind of approach it in a fashion that I know that that's why I'm Secretary of State Mike Pompey's action in Pyeongyang right now is to discuss some of the terms and conditions how they're going to approach this and hopefully set up a time and a date with our President Donald Trump to meet. So I think this is a good protocol gesture that we're making and hopefully that North Korea can comply with those issues. You know historically, culturally in Asia when you make an agreement like this it's the first step, you know what I mean? You've been there. You know, it's the first step. It's like a first offer and then as time goes by you say that's not a good deal. I'm going to renegotiate that. So an agreement isn't necessarily final in business, at least historically in Asia. Maybe it's different now. But I suspect and I pose to you the possibility that they'll both make this agreement and it'll be a first step. It won't be the ultimate agreement and something will happen where one side or the other or both say, you know what? You haven't been behaving right or something has changed my mind about this deal. So I'm either going to pull a plug or I'm going to renegotiate and it'll be an ongoing process. That's my scenario. I'm posing to you, Russell. What about that tonight? You think that'll happen? Yeah, I think we know what happened going back to your on-deal that this morning President Donald Trump made a press release that he's going to pull a plug and hopefully he wasn't happy with the condition in terms of the condition that our past President Barack Obama made in 2015 with the Iran deal. So I guess there are some conditions that was in there with the nuclear missiles, how they're going to comply. So we did withdraw from the Iran deal and now the Iranian President Raul Ali is saying that he's going to restart the nuclear plants there to produce uranium. What would you say if you were him? You know, just had the rug pulled out from under you. So you go back to square one when you were producing uranium, whatever. Yeah, but I guess there is a grace period. I know that there's 90 days they're going to see and after that there's going to be 180 days, about six months to see because hopefully, I hope they have to go through the U.S. Congress. If any of the condition and deals that we make with the executive office of the president, yeah, you have to go through the congressional side. Well, he didn't go through the Congress before. He was saying that he makes the speech, he pulls the plug and then he goes to Congress. If I were in Congress, I would be less than happy about that. So you might hear some term oils and some of the congressional delegates are maybe complaining. People say there's term oil in Europe. You know, Europe who backed that deal, who President Obama, you know, brought into that deal and now they've had the plug pulled on them. Oh, yeah. They worry about it. They worry that the United States is going to ask them to continue the sanctions or resume the sanctions that were in place before. You're not so sure they're going to do that. Yeah, exactly. Just recently we had a president from France, Malcolm came and we gave him a big White House state dinner and all that. And then, Merkel from Germany came, Chancellor Merkel, and saying that please do not withdraw from the Iran deal. What's ironic is that Israel Prime Minister Netanyahu said that we have all this evidence, all these books and CDs that Iranian is lying and that they're still trying to produce nuclear weapons and mass distractions and all that kind of stuff. So I think Donald Trump kind of reassessed his decision and hopefully that's why the reason that maybe they're trying to come up with a new Iranian deal. I really wonder whether he vetted that through the right enough people to get good advice. The State Department and Pompeo is not skilled and experienced in this area really. And other agencies that he should have consulted with. And I wonder actually in the case of North Korea whether Kim Jong-un can trust Donald Trump to abide by his word written or oral. Because Donald Trump seems to change his mind on a regular basis. And so Kim Jong-un has got to find a way to give comfort to him and his country the extent that his country and him are different things. I'm not sure they are. To get comfort that Donald Trump will in fact perform because Donald Trump is not known to perform his promises. I think in terms of a positive way I guess our president is going to make sure that they comply. I know that Kim Jong-un promised to the Xi Jinping of China that they're going to go with the denuclearization just recently when they met. And when they had this memorandum understanding they signed agreement with Moon Jae-in on April 27th saying that they are going to proceed with the denuclearization. So hopefully if they're promising each other within the agents I think Donald Trump can foresee that and say hey, if that's the case with our meeting that we're going to have if you're going to proceed you guys got to show a good gesture that is happening then hopefully then we can come up with a one Korea kind of concept where unification of South and North Korea can unite as one Korea. And if that happens then the APEC organization can come in and say alright you guys join in with South Korea and we're going to give you a seat and we're going to give you all the economic aid and you're going to have all these 21 countries all the age of Pacific region to help you guys to do the business and hopefully give you some investments and industrialize your industry there. That's a beautiful picture you're painting because I'm having a little trouble swallowing it I'm sorry. Can we take a one minute break so I can have a sip of water. He's a senior APEC official and he's a candidate for the Nobel Peace Laureate Peace Prize award maybe he can do something we'll be right back. Hello everyone I'm DeSoto Brown the co-host of Human Humane Architecture which is seen on Think Tech Hawaii every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. and with the show's host Martin Despeng we discuss architecture here in the Hawaiian Islands and how it not only affects the way we live but other aspects of our life not only here in Hawaii but internationally as well. So join us for Human Humane Architecture every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii. That's my sin why would he like to China? Russell you know you said that maybe we can have a beautiful result here maybe there will be peace in fact reunification but let me unpack that. Why would Kim Jong-un want to have reunification wouldn't he lose all his power all his total control that he has over in North Korea wouldn't that be the worst possible thing for him? Let me put my agent hat here and you know among the agents of thinking I think you know he wants to be maybe a natural hero you know not being from the Kim son the supreme commander from his grandfather and being from his father Kim and Il being a hermit kingdom kind of guy maybe you know he's a third generation he realized that it might be a good timing to unify North and South Korea after 65 years of domestic treaty that there was never a peace a treaty made between South and North Korea and I think the meeting maybe the influence of a busy ping from China might have been you know among the Chinese were always behind North Korea prior to that was the Russians giving order Do you think the Chinese would want to see a reunified Korea? I think so I think Right now they their ally if you will their puppet whatever is North Korea it's a proxy for them and they can use it you know to build a buffer against the United States and the interests of the United States in that part of Asia so if they lose that ability with North Korea now they're exposed to the U.S. all throughout all of Korea there won't be a buffer state anymore China I don't think China would want to see that China would vote the other way to the extent it has any influence over him I think it does so this would be the end of him and it would be the end of his relationship with China I think in terms of being in charge North Korea and I guess I would put this question to you maybe there's a compromise here maybe there's some kind of negotiated result maybe it's over time maybe they say let's let's do business you know I think if I were him that would be the most tantalizing possibility let's do business with China let's do business I mean let's do business with South Korea let's do business with Japan let's do business with the United States it's the mouse that roared you know because we made peace with them you know they want lots of first you know first nation status with us and that would be interesting if I were Kim Jong-un but in terms of losing my power I would have to preserve that somehow I don't want to be thrown out and I don't want to do violence to the relationship I have with China so how do I do that is there a way to do that is there a way for him to preserve his power but at the same time become you know a better player in Asia with with all of Asia and with the United States yeah definitely I think if you look at the internal policy Kim Jong-un was like dictator with militarism maybe he wants to not promote bringing that militarism kind of concept and maybe he wants to go more from communism to maybe like a socialist kind of country and work with the other neighboring countries work with the ASEAN country work with Japan, South Korea first I think within the Korea they speak the same language they want to go back to their old roots and bring in the culture and the heritage back and maybe they want to see that kind of positive kind of impact you know if I was an Asian and if I was Korean maybe you know I would want to see that peaceful net with my brothers sisters on the other side of the border you're a guy who is into peace I know that we all know that the Nobel Foundation knows that but what about the people in North Korea they've been under the thumb of this family for how many years did you say 65 years but who's counting okay now all of a sudden Kim Jong-un sort of capitulates his power he surrenders his power or he significantly reduces his power by making a deal in favor of economic assistance you know that would reduce his power now the people in North Korea have greater freedom now the people in North Korea will be able to express themselves in a way they have not been able to you know with like freedom of the press like who knows be able to travel to abroad and get their visas all of a sudden they have real rights as citizens of a modern nation aren't you worried that when he when they are allowed that kind of freedom they're going to find this guy and hang him by his heels in the public square they're going to take out 65 years of oppression on him wouldn't you be worried for him I would be worried for him are they going to find him don't you think well I think if you look at the history you know we had that with World War II with East Germany and West Germany and I remember when our President Ronald Reagan mentioned I dare Mr. Govache tear this wall down and the wall came down and between the eastern communist countries start working with the west and Chancellor Merkel was a part of the East German side now look at her she's the Chancellor of the United Germany I have to acknowledge that's a nice scenario it would be wonderful if that happened I think you've got to give him a chance he's got to be really smart about it so we don't get hung by his heels it's a terrible thing to get hung by his heels the other thing is how free can the United States be in doing this trade we have other trading partners some of whom we've imposed tariffs on in Asia how do we do freer trade you're into trade I know you are how do we do freer trade we have a partnership to be the incentive for making a deal with North Korea, Kim Jong-un how do we do this without offending the other people against whom we've imposed tariffs what do we do I think if you look at it we deal with the third world countries from the 60s and 70s there's a trade act called GSB General Systems Preferences Act we give these third world countries no free trade agreement We have them with those countries now. Exactly. And as soon as they get developed, they take them off the GSP list. And I think in North Korea's case, I think with the worldwide attention that North Korea is getting, I'm sure the other countries are going to give them that benefit of free trade kind of status so they can get their economy going and give them economic assistance. Do you think Japan would mind, even though Japan has been stuck on a tariff here? No. Japan is willing this. They want that unification between North and South. They want stability. Right. And security. Well, and that is a question of what happens, whether I want to say 18 million people, only 18 million people in North Korea, if they get successful, what do you think they'll be doing? Will it be like South Korea? Will it be making electronics and having arguably the best cell phones in the world? And building cars and doing all kinds of really fine manufacturing and technological development. Do you think that's possible in North Korea? I think the South Koreans can help them in that way because they speak the same language. What's in it for them? They're helping a competitor, aren't they? It's okay. They can do the joint venture and partnership like we did in Kaosong, the industrial park area by the 30th parallel, similar kind of thing that instead of making these tangible goods like slippers and shoes and clothing, they can get into some light industry or light heavy industry, making electronics, kind of maybe come with semiconductors or any other rice cookers or anything. Do they need North Korea to do this? Yeah. Does the South need North Korea to make this kind of economic expansion? Or is this merely paying the price for security, paying the price for not having an aggressive nuclear neighbor? Yeah. I think that too. I think in paying the price to bringing peace and unifying North and South Korea and bringing within the armistice treaty to make it like a peace treaty. And I think the South Koreans realize that they want to do this. And it's a time. Time is good right now. Timing-wise, everybody wants to, all the countries through Asia Pacific are coming up to economic development, economic opportunity. And we should give North Korea a chance too. We're in an only eye and sore country right now in the Asia Pacific region. So if we can bring South Korea to work with North Korea and hopefully help them out, hey, that's a wonderful thing. They should deserve a Nobel Peace Prize for that one. I will sacrifice my Nobel Peace Prize to Kim Il-Noon. You heard him. You heard him right here. Well, I hope these things come to pass. I myself am not so optimistic, but hey, we'll see. And maybe we'll have you back again, Russell. And after it all unfolds, which will probably be the next few weeks, knock wood, I hope it'll be the next few weeks, I hope that Trump doesn't put this off or Kim Jong-un doesn't put this off, you know, into the Netherlands. And when it happens, you know, I hope that we can call upon you to arrange for Kim Jong-un to come into the studio and we'll interview him here. What do you think? Yeah, that'd be great. I hope he can come to Hawaii and hopefully that they get the visa passed and maybe even he can have a speaking engagement at the East West Center. Yeah. That'd be terrific. That'd be wonderful. If he finishes at Think Tech, he can go to the East West Center. I'll personally take him to a good Japanese restaurant. Right. Our Korean restaurant there. Whatever. Thank you, Russell. Russell Hanra. Thank you. I'm a US APEC official in Hawaii and also a candidate for the Nobel Laureate Peace Prize Award. But unfortunately, if they make, for him, if they make a deal between North and South Korea, he's not going to get that award for sure. Not this year. Not this year. Maybe the following year. Coming soon. Thank you, Russell. Thank you.