 Maybe you ought to look at a website, so it's probably useful to get a little bit more background than that So I'll do a little bit of an overview and then Jeff can walk around We've got a bigger map that you can take a look at and then I understand you guys had your own community meeting some of you Anyway, how'd a community meeting yesterday? So, I mean the really this is about getting some input and hearing concerns and just making sure we have all the best information Is we're trying to work on design, right? So we have a concept, but you know, we want to really hear from the community So I again, I'm Gabe Lajanes. I'm the the sponsor and the builder and sort of the overseer of this idea and You know just in terms of background of how you know, we got here to this place at this time You know, we moved to Montpelier about five years ago from Northfield We're trying to get our son into you guys have great schools We have great schools here, right? And so trying to get our son into the high school worked out really well He got an appointment to West Point and just finishing his plea of your but when we moved here five years ago We could not find a place to live We couldn't and so my admin at the office you went into the senior center and asked everyone and I got three leads of Potential private sales and that was how we had to buy our house. There was no way we could have moved here If we didn't have some network, there's just it wasn't gonna hit the MLS There was no way and so, you know, you sort of look at that and you look at where we've we've gone through It was really just so apparent over the last couple years. I'm hearing stories about You know, we're we all hear these stories right people that you know are commuting in here that want to live here But can't find a place to rent can't find a place to live You know people that have a place to rent but want to buy someplace We just don't have a very healthy Ecosystem of housing, right? We've got we've got some great housing, but we don't have a good ecosystem, right? People need to be able to people that need to rent or want to rent should be all the rent right and people that want to be able to get a starter home should be able to get a starter home and All the way through that whole cycle right people that want to downsize right some people want to downsize They don't need that big house. So we're where are they gonna go? And so just story after story of people that are just having such a hard time And I think we all realize that there's a housing crisis that's going on and it's impacting a lot of people Including a lot of vulnerable people because there's there's just no movement right people stay This is part of the issue right people are staying in their places because they don't have that downsizable house So they stay and then nobody has a place to live and so then they're not moving out of their rental so nobody can rent Right, it's just really unhealthy So anyway as I'm watching all this and you know being involved in the community and thinking about things It just seemed like this is this is a need and I'm the son of a builder and my brother's a builder And so I've been in that ecosystem since I was a little kid hauling lumber around a job site and it's like well Look who's gonna fix this if it's not you right who's gonna work on this if it's not you And and really I think the situation ran and you guys all know the story of this place better better than anyone But if you look at what happened after 2008 and really where all the money has gone So we had a big housing crisis. We had a bubble. We had a housing crisis and then it's become really institutional money So if you look at construction all over this country including single-family homes, right? We've got you know Blackstone buying entire housing developments And and really there aren't a lot of regional builders anymore. There's custom home builders, right? So if you've got the money and you want to build your dream home, you can do that But those people are not those institutional investors are not investing in northern New England and other rural places, right? They're in they're in Austin, Texas and they're in Boise, Idaho And they're you know, it's all about a process and a system and that's just where the money has gone And and so again, who are there the regional builders? So just feeling out like hey, you know, you can maybe pull something together and pull some people together I got started in February last year with a new business venture and the first project They were just gonna be completing and Montpelier was a triplex If you look at you know where most municipalities have gone and certainly the city of Montpelier There's a thought about infill housing, right? How do we keep our our you know downtown centers strong and have walkable neighborhoods and those kind of things And so, you know, I bought a lot that had been subdivided and we you know We're gonna have three families that have a place to live that didn't before So we started that and then I did a project with my brother. He's out in the seacoast. That's nine units We got the first three and we're kind of working through that But then it's how did you how do you do something out of a grander scale? How do we actually have a neighborhood? How do we create some community? How do we create something beautiful and continue, you know some of these other beautiful neighborhoods like yours that we already have And so I called the city and you know talked to the the planning folks and got some ideas And I think you all know like most of us know there are four or five major places where could there could be development So I talked to all of those places and to be able to do a project like this It really requires a landowner I mean, there's a few things first of all we're shooting for sort of the missing middle, right? We're we want to be as affordable as possible and You know one thing that has to happen is you have to have somebody that's willing to sell the land at a price that it's it's gonna make sense, you know to be able to build on and Anyway, just maybe some of those projects will happen someday We all hope they do but the factos as you know, they had the last approved development here Which they basically after act 250 that you know 2008 happened and they just put the brakes on it and Ever since then they've been looking to offload the land. So they were willing to be very patient, right? I mean you think about all the risk right to go and do the engineering and You know to get the design done and have all the meetings and the hearings and get something approved It's in today's environment. It's like 250 to 300 thousand dollars and a landowner that's willing to Be patient while you take that year to year and a half process have meetings with the community have meetings with the city I mean, it's a significant risk and a significant Investment of time and you know the factos are willing to give us the time And so that was sort of the origin about six months ago was that conversation where after a lot of conversations That this was a place that it could happen So then it was well, how do you make it happen, right? It's it's a million dollar piece of land There's you know, probably whatever you build here It's multi-millions of dollars and so you have to bring partners in right have to get some people involved And so I'm really grateful to be partnered with some folks that have some really good background Karen and Tom Luzon and Barry who were involved and then a gentleman stew McGowan who bought a lot of the You know really dilapidated, you know beautiful architecture But really not very well taking care of homes in the the old north end in Burlington and Rehabilitated them and really put a shot of energy into that community in Burlington So I've got some really good partners on on board and then my brother who's been in the industry for three years is consulting for us So that's kind of like how how we got here. So then it's well, you know Well, what do you do? We have a team, you know, we've got a site. We have a beautiful neighborhood You know, what do you do and there there's definitely some math involved, right? It's like well, you know We don't know economies can change, you know We can all look at financial markets and you know feel pressure and look at you know Go to the grocery store and feel pressure, right? We have a lot of inflationary things that are happening and and so it's you know, basically this is a minimalist It's like what what can you do to at least break even right to at least have have Feel to say this was a profitable venture. We didn't lose our money trying to create housing for people, right? And so I know it's much different than the 215 units that were you know considered under the factos it is very very different But it's also You know in terms of risk, it's the least risky, right? We can put something in we can see how it sells And we can sort of move through it in that way So anyway, that's that's how we got to where we are I'm gonna have Jeff, you know walk around, you know, just kind of walk around the map a bit But I thought it would be useful I'll just talk about some because I've had some conversations with people in the community Just some of the themes that I'm seeing because there may be things that are on your mind And then I I think first of all we we know, you know safety is really paramount, right? You come through here and there's all these, you know young kids And then there's the young at heart and there's everybody out with their dog And you know, this is a really vibrant walkable community and so safety really is very important and it's important us We don't want to change that character of the neighborhood in any way It is really interesting, you know when you look at we picked this design it's new in the in the regs For Montpelier, it's they've been built in other places, but these cottage clusters They really change the focus, you know as you have front doors facing common green spaces and move the parking to the periphery They really change the environment and while they've been around for a long time It was really there's a lot of foresight because you know, I don't know about you But if you look at your mileage on your vehicle the last couple years and you compare it to the couple years before that We're all driving a lot less We're all in our communities a lot more and so making the vehicles less part of you know, they're there You know, we live in Vermont, you know, there's a lot of places that we need to get to But they're not the the main focus, right? And so you know the idea of having these these tighter communities Important but but we want in all of that, you know to make sure we'll do traffic studies If there are things that need to be done around the existing road in terms of visibility, right? We'll work with landowners if we need to you know, help with some vegetation or something or that we need mirrors Whatever it is that we know that we need to do to make sure our people can see each other Right and they're safe and people should be driving slow, right all those things. So that's a concern of ours as well another another common theme that that came up was I don't know it was common But I had several people including one very detailed note last night about water And that's a real issue, right? And so as we work through the permitting process, so vhp if you don't know, I mean, they're an amazing engineering firm all over the east coast They've done developments that you know of they've done, you know, stow mountain and quichy We all know those but they do developments all over in a very difficult, you know, Vermont There's a lot of water and there's difficult terrain And so rest assured, you know that we will do what is necessary to to make sure that there's not the You know the people that are downhill, right? I mean, they don't want to have flooding There's some flooding issues downhill. We're aware of that and appreciate the people who Were sent us some more information on that. So, you know, the more information we have the better that we can, you know, do what we're trying to do You know, I've had a couple common questions I've had some people asking about price points and I would just say, you know, we really the target market You know, there's 36 Cottages and then there's 16 single family lots And so the cottages, you know single family lots, those are our 9 000 So people can buy those and they can build, you know, what's whatever's available under our 9 000 rules, but the cottages Are really targeted, uh, you know first-time home buyers or people trying to downsize And the reason I'm just hesitant to put price on things is like boy the price of lumber doubled last year on me, right? Like it's back down But things changed, right and there's a lot of competition for labor right now You know, so if you get a subcontractor and they come out They may or may not be able to get the workforce that they need to be able to get things done So, you know, the process of it is we get land use approval So, you know, we go and we have, you know, an initial sketch hearing will get, you know Get your feedback today. We'll get some feedback from the drb and then we'll really get to work Um If all that permitting if it all kind of flowed and there weren't a lot of problems, maybe this fall Uh, we have land use approval Which is perfect time to put it out for bid because contractors are slowing down And then once we have bids in, you know, we'll have a better handle on What the cost might look like, but right now it's just really really hard to say We do hope, you know, like all of us the inflationary pressures come down. So that's another uh common question you know, I think I think Jeff, do you want to just, you know, talk about the design for a minute and then, um, We I think you have a couple people that maybe you're appointed or something. I'm not sure We'd love to have feedback. I just you know, we're not in a public hearing So there's no two minute rule, but there's a lot of people here. So I would just say Like just recognize there are a lot of people that want to say things And and some of the more technical things like the note that I got last night. They're actually better To communicate and writing like I got, you know, I got some pictures I got some real, you know, detailed information and that was I was able to provide that to my engineer So just, you know, just be respectful that, you know, they're we want to make sure everybody that wants to be heard Today can be heard. So, uh, Jeff, why don't you Why miss from Jeff's waiver? I'm an engineer with BHB. Um, we have offices in my failure and in South Burlington What is BHB? At estate Hagen, Brussels And so yeah, we we're a civil engineering firm. Uh, we have an environmental group. Uh, we have traffic folks. Um, We have about 1500 people all up and down the east coast. We kind of operate is local markets. I Pretty much cover Vermont like our offices cover Vermont. So we're not we're not all over the place. We understand the local issues All my works exclusively in in Vermont, but we still have those resources There's some technical things that, you know, you're they're one-offs and and so we can reach outside of Vermont and and get that input Um, and so Gabe You know last Fall reached out to us and brought us on board To do the site layout and eventually the civil engineering. So we're kind of taking that in phases um And one of the things that we considered, you know, it's a large parcel 72 acres There's some areas of it further down that have some steep slopes, but there's some great areas, you know up top here It's located near A lot of your neighborhood and so we try to figure out, um, you know, how can we best use that land and You know the traditional way would be to kind of just pick one density and lay out lots all throughout and then cover, you know, steep slopes Um, you know areas that are great to develop on areas that are not great to develop on But we're trying to make sure that we put that growth where Um, where it best works for both the parcel the topography the parcel the natural resources the parcel Um, and then for the butters. So um to try to do that We really have two as Gabe mentioned, you know, two two products The single family home lots that will be along this area here And around the perimeter of the site, uh, which very closely replicate the density in the style of lighter homes um, and then Clustered in the middle Are all the cottage homes and so those have um, it's just the house and they're located around A green so like a shared open space, you know, more of the sense of community With garages like a shared garage. So um, it'll be a row of, you know, not a not a parking garage, but you know, just a row of um parking spaces that'll be covered in the winter. You don't have to Scrape up your car every every morning. Um, and then walking along a short sidewalk To the cottage homes that are grouped in. I think it's 10 clusters throughout the neighborhood And and that's a little denser development than than your homes But it allows us to kind of preserve a lot of that 72 acres And keep it open for recreation and people to use and to protect the natural resources there And and so along the the self end of the parcel Is where there's the existing deeded recreation land and then the portion of it that will remain undeveloped and so You know, it'll kind of integrate into one community that this newer portion in your Um community long is a bill circle. There's been extension in the circle And allow people to walk along the sidewalks If they want to along the road, it's a low volume road You know, we all know that the sidewalks don't get plowed right away And we feel that for this number of cars It's it's safe to walk along the road as long as people Have adequate site distances, right? If if you can see the car coming the car can see you coming We live in vermont people drive courteous This is going to be the um the only entrance and exit to this neighborhood, right? It's not going to be a cut through street people aren't going to be in a hurry To to be on the highway down to the south and cut through And keep going on the north side of the parcel So we think that you know, this development will really be integrated and become almost one of the same with you And it's well under um, you know 500 trips a day where you start transitioning that guidance, right? You're going to only you're not going to expect to um, you're not going to expect the same spot Pedestrian a car going each way Where that the cars can't move over. So, um, we want to make sure that It's safe. You have both has to be be safe and you have to feel safe, right? Like if you can't have just one or the other So in this neighborhood there would be good sight lines along the um along the streets And in an existing neighborhood, we want to make sure um, you know From what i've seen most of it is is perfectly adequate There is a few areas where there's some brush in the right away and some some corners And we want to enhance those those sight distances To the extent we can to to make sure that that people that are walking along With with the traffic feel safe as well So that's kind of how we came up with the layout um and the traffic Um, we also um, you know, I'm engineering. We'll have to cover Utilities, um, it's served by um Municipal water municipal sewer. Um, so there's not going to be large leach fields. There's not going to be um a bunch of wells And so that makes it, you know great track of land for for development opportunities, right? We're not we're not we're not tearing up environment to um to construct large leach fields um and drilling um, you know Deep bedrock wells for each individual home Stormwater the state of vermont has um six treatment standards that are required Water quality channel protection ground water recharge soil depth and quality Overbank control and extreme flood prevention so each of those covers, you know small events and large events Um historically, you know in the 70s certainly and going into the 80s and early 90s You know engineers typically designed for large storm events They're like, you know if if if the water comes down, you know, 50 year event a 100 year event You know an event that happens once every 50 or 100 years. How do we hold that water back? But what we didn't realize is um, or maybe we did we just weren't think smart about it. Um that 90 percent of your storm events are less than one inch So those smaller events the water quality event, we're gonna capture that water provide treatment phosphorus reduction And make sure that water discharge is at a slower rate. So um through those five standards that the state Has adopted. There's a you know large spectrum Of events that we need to consider um Well, we also heard and and what's typical, you know of of steep slopes is um, you know, they're concerned about You know, where is the water going? Where is it coming from? So not only do we need to meet those those six standards We need to look, you know downhill at each point and figure out what how much water came Before the development and how much water Is coming after the development and and the quantities and the rates and the flows and and make sure that we don't adversely affect the downstream development And and the goal isn't you know the status quo not to we we want to we feel that you know by By looking at and hearing your concerns You know, we can look at a map and see what it is but we don't necessarily You know without reaching out to the neighbors we We don't necessarily understand, you know, some of the nuances there. So that's um, I really appreciate Gabe Reaching out to the neighborhood and setting up these meetings so you can hear, you know, the specific challenges Um and then the needs that you know where we can address the efficient conditions If possible, so so the goal isn't status quo You know our goal is to try and prove things And I feel like we can by looking at those, um, you know state standards and then also, you know general good design practices Beyond that During construction, you know the the operational six standards that that's for the long term. That's that's basically forever measures Um, we also want to be good stewards of the land during construction. Uh, it will require a state storm water permit And we're gonna have to make sure that we're we're smart about it. Um, and we'll have to come up with a phasing plan so that No longer do you see like a large development and all 20 acres That'll be developed out of that 72 acres. You know open and denuded It'll strategically going through and minimizing the durations Of disturbance and making sure that we get those soils vegetated as soon as possible. Um, and Once, you know, you break it down in small chunks and you do it smartly and you communicate with the contractor with The builder with the engineer erosion and a lot of the struggles that we're struggling with in vermont Are are are quite manageable. Um, and we've had success. Um, and in many areas. Um, this does have some steeper land, but You know vhb, we do at all of the major ski resorts. We do design and engineering for the ski trails And and getting it vegetated and doing it smart. Um, we feel that the steep slopes are not Something that's adverse to this this uh proposed project at all Yeah, I this is um, you know the two years it's it's great to see you guys out here. Um, I please, you know Feel free to give your comments now. Um, but feel free to reach out to me at any time I want to hear it. Um, now I want to get your input It's um, I've been for two years. I've been doing zoom meetings and presenting on zoom meetings And it's just not you don't get the same feedback. Um, you can convey the information But uh, please feel free to either, um, let us know now, you know, in a public setting What your concerns are um, and don't hesitate to come up with me come up to the one-on-one or give me a call after a meeting um, I appreciate the opportunity to See what you know, what some of the nuances and the concerns of neighborhood The neighborhood is So did you have something you wanted to say right at the beginning before we Hi everyone, I'm Christopher Biersma. I live at four isabel circle in the wild garden house. Um So a bunch of us neighbors gathered here last night and just wanted to kind of like get an idea What was going on and then we you know looking forward to having you here. So We did go around and gather, you know Some of the things that we were thinking about the most and I would say it kind of came down to number one, we uh, and I'm not speaking for everyone, of course We think that you know The road there should be another road. We'd like to see you here. Here you talk to that You know, there's a lot of kids that live on this road. It's a very Quiet road and you know seeing a hundred more cars every day back and forth You know, this is a neighborhood that is out of the way from downtown people Do have to commute in vermont everywhere So we imagine there's going to be a lot of cars a lot of construction traffic So that's kind of the number one thing that everyone was thinking about, you know number two is we've all been in vermont more or less for a while now and I think you know one of the great things about here is that we are concerned with affordability, you know work, uh, folks are You're right. Like that, you know, there is a a missing middle And I think that that middle is is larger than maybe what you spoke to So I think that you know kind of expanding on that we'd like to see that there are opportunities for You know low to middle income to working-class folks that that do want to buy their first home that um Yeah, so, you know That is a big issue affordability in vermont And then of course, you know, we are privileged. We've been enjoying this this beautiful Piece of nature here. And you know, we're concerned that That's going away. So, um, yeah, and I and I definitely want to hear from everyone else. So Yeah, thank you. Well, thank you. Can I say something? I have a limited amount of time. Yes, sir Thank you. You're the only one with a limited amount of time Well, you know something you got to grab it when you get a chance. Yeah, and you're good at that Barbara, are you all done? Not yet, but you go right ahead since you have a limited amount of time Hi, my name is Howard coffin. I've uh Lived here 25 years and stonewall condos I'm a seventh generation vermonter There's one word that uh Defines my feeling about this And that is No What on earth Are we looking at here? We have About as close to paradise as you can come In this world We have some of the best of vermont right here and some of the best of vermont is some of the best of anything And we're sitting here Hearing that they have come here To solve the housing crisis That is not true. They have come here to make money And they're going to spend as little as possible and charge as much as they can and make as much as they can And leave us with the results more traffic There will be more pollution. They cannot plan you cannot plan through what storms are going to bring Because we are in climate change. You have no idea This is our park. We live here. We have our park The the city is divided by a river on the north side. They have hovered park. They just added to it We have nothing over here. But this If you want to do us a favor by this land and give it to us as a park We'll remember you well But not for this The construction mess that's going to happen here The traffic that's going to pour in here 500 cars a day. He says like it's nothing How many times In this civilized neighborhood if i chased young drivers in here and give them a talking to to slow down You can't control what's going to happen here We i don't want this And in this country we have a say And if we don't want it, we're going to move against it. We fought off Fecto Who lumbered up here every few years to try to develop this area My wife sue who's now been gone sadly seven years led that fight and we stopped him And I think we've got another opponent. We've got to stop the word. I'm saying here is no because this will Seriously impact our style of life, which we are fortunate to have But I think we deserve thank you for listening You know can I can I just comment? I mean I I appreciate I appreciate exactly what you said sir I do you love your you love your neighborhood Um then leave it alone If we if we look at Every project that's been proposed in Montpelier. We have a housing crisis. Do people not believe that? Uh, Gabe so just to protect everyone's time here since you know, you did get a chance to talk Why would we continue to going around and then so you can get the feedback that you came here to get, you know, yeah Go ahead. Okay. My name is Bob chef man. I live at nine captain's street Yes, thank you Downstream. Yeah, so we've been fighting this battle with the city of Montpelier Since we moved into our home which was 1988 And I can't tell you how many hours I spent in our basement with uh, just With some pump open every time I threw it into waste people where that I wouldn't electrocute much So it's been an ongoing problem. It was a much smaller Situation that was that was Shown to the city and it asked all the state regulations just like you know, your your partners talking about And ultimately it was unsustainable It was it was talk about having a One You're gonna flood out these people down here and and that includes our family and our friends and our neighbors And and and what you're proposing is unsustainable For the people down here So what was proposed was basically a big I guess a big pot, you know, perhaps cement line Which was going to hold the water from coming down We've had water in our basement for as I said for years and years and years Eventually we convinced the city of Montpelier to to hire Phil Scott and Du Bois to do some more faith Invested about 20,000 dollars and did a lot of work with the trail coming down here But yet we still have It's a death sentence that you propose sure it there needs to be Low-income housing and I'm sure everybody says not here But I would ask again you've been in Montpelier for five years How would you feel if you were talking if you were out here talking to you? And I'm sure you're a hell of a nice guy and you say it's got to be somewhere But I bet you wouldn't want to impose upon yourself what you're trying to impose upon us And and and and I want to let both of you guys know so we're not going to go away You know, we're not going to say okay make some accommodations We're going to we're going to fight this to the bitter end So I'm sure you're nice guys, but but you've made enemies among some of us And and I'm not going to let this go and if I lose I lose But we're going to do everything we possibly can legally to make sure this never happens Not a small piece of it not any of it And and so so when you come here I listen to both of you guys You know, you don't know anything about you know where Taplin Street is you haven't been at the top of Taplin Street No Well, you look for but you but you've never been there You don't what you're talking about and I hear you're talking about cars racing in and out How do you know, you know, you don't know that that's going to happen If there was a road from there to here 17 year old boys would be going 60 miles an hour And you can swear all day that it'll never happen. That's not true It will and and you're going to try and make some accommodations the accommodations won't work We've been down this path before we've seen the results I spent countless hours with Tom McCarl. He was the guy for the city going on and on and on We've been flooded. We've dealt with insurance companies. You can't make it work It's not going to work for you guys are willing and this guy's right. I mean your altruism is is pretty transparent You'll want to make money. You're a businessman Tom losing over here. He's a businessman. So he's done Doing Barry. So now he's coming to Montpelier and I see what he's did downtown We had a great golf station Harold's golf must have been here for 50 years Tom wanted to buy and he's going to put him in an apartment building. Well, he raised the gas station And now we have a big empty parking lot So so to expect I don't know about the rest of you people You all sound pretty naive to me pretty much but to expect this to be a good project That's going to be good for all of us. It's not true It'll be good for a handful of people not for the rest of us. Thank you Yeah So You know, I think uh, I'm I'm not against uh housing for folks. Uh, you know, my name is Bob Schuffer All right, Bob. I don't think we know each other Wait, wait, wait, wait. I would like to see that before people start talking about it I don't know what's going on and I'm in an neighborhood that's actually I'm over here Does it go to Can we show the whole group So I think we had a question Yeah, I just want to make a comment at hasn't been talked about a lot about the the road through My big concern is I grew up in the suburbs of New York City. So I'm used to big And I don't mind personally, but I'm very very concerned about the traffic and without another egress insurance It just seems like way too much. I mean, I live on 22, which is right on that dead blind bend and 22 Hubert and uh to have all this traffic coming by our place two three four times a day You know, there are a lot of little kids who hang around here. We have dogs And you know, without another way out of here, I don't even see how it's safe Really, I mean, there are communities. I think don't even allow certain numbers of of houses on the dead end road So let me I heard um I was going to mention like 500 now. I don't know if I misspoke very necessarily, but That's kind of a threat. I mentioned that number as a threshold where you start changing it Just thinking about different road types. We're talking about 56 Units so a little over a hundred a lot of them will have two cars, right? Yeah, so it's a little over a hundred Can I say one thing? I live across the street from Hebert farm apartment Get a dumpster for a view out my front window I actually counted last week how many cars went in and out of that parking lot in a two hour time period 40 cars in and out of just those apartments Need I say more Hi, my name is Jean Leon. Hey, how are you? Yeah, I appreciate this turnout. I mean amazing. This is what it's about. I mean dialogue and communication I wish we had this much turnout in uh during the elections, but I ran for council and I'm also the Area capital areas neighborhood leader for Berlin Street. I live up to 65 Berlin Street I think it's so essential to just keep this Dialogue we know we have a Housing problem and this was an area that was developed Initially to have a continuation 20 30 years ago and there hasn't been a development housing development of this proportion in over 30 years So there is savings pasture. There's terraced street north fielder. There are other now the city buying the golf course So there are other Places, but this is also an important potential prospective place that I think we should all keep an open mind and continue the dialogue and and if it End of communication and Like this gentleman said, you know, it might be sustainable in one way That it might be unsustainable to to the community I was an advocate for pushing to reduce the speed limit on Berlin Street I don't know if you guys remember that And our district look not one council member from our districts here And are none of the councils from our district voted to reduce it other than two others So we got 30 and not 25 Berlin Street is a community. It's a neighborhood bike path walking Sidewalks houses. It's not very rural like this and The impact on traffic for such development is also You know a concern on any on all of our neighbors as well So it's just very essential that we keep this dialogue and this communication and see what There could be a resolution to accommodate the needs of the city in housing and Of course our community Yeah, I have a question sort of like civics 101 you've Presented this as somewhat of a fatal complete, but I don't believe it is right What is the process that it has to go through? And things that i'm concerned about Is what the city Will provide you you said it's going to have city water and sewer We are on city water and sewer in our condo But yet we have to pump the sewer up the hill to get to the city sewer And it's it is has caused us problems So Is the city going to build your road? Is it going to pave your road? Is it going to Do they push the snow away on your road? What is the process and where can we intervene is what I want to know So where where can our voices be heard? What is the d rb Thank you And then they do the same thing they give us all their comments and concerns, right? So it's all it's all exploratory So then we take all that back and say, okay, well, what can we do? Right So and then after that the permitting process, I don't know how many two to three hearings And they have to do the process Multiple gateways right where you have an opportunity to have some I think we should Okay It wouldn't be safe for more cars than there are in this neighborhood to be going around And what about our pets our dogs and cats that we let outside on free roam What they could get hurt even just with the traffic we have today There's no telling what could happen if we had more traffic And there's an enormous green space Why would we want to get rid of it? Even at this preliminary stage, do you have a thought about an alternate road? Yeah, you know, so we're we're really again trying to stay, uh You know, we'll do traffic studies. We'll you know, we'll get the recommendations of what the processes to be the safest but you know, again, just trying to make sure that we You know that we don't get into a financial problem with this development It really was meant to be small and scope, right? So Whatever the map is, you know, all of a sudden if we're trying to connect out the other side That's a much bigger project. Hey, that's a much bigger and disturbs much more land, right? So Um, I don't know, you know Connect out where To berlin street or wherever I mean those are steep slopes that lot. I mean you have to there's another lot You'd have to buy there's no access to berlin road Um, so there's a lot of you know, so could there be someday? Yeah, there could be I mean, I think if there were more development that would be part of it, right? This is really just trying to can we do this at all? Here we go down to the question over here, I think This I'm sorry not for when I meant very much That was the original design, but that was like a 225 You think about the cost, right? If you have a lot of units people can share costs So that was a 225 unit proposal and then you know, and then you had a road that I rode that went down to the very Thanks for the question Just for your information, yes Three and I'm just going out to some new bedrooms and two beds and three hundred and thirty thousand dollars It's not downsizing for a lot of people. It's not low-income either. It's not low-income And it seems as though you're really going for upper middle people when that's not as I understand it the main Need of Montpelier Well, there's a whole ecosystem that's needed, right? You need again you need rentals And you need the you know the starter homes and you need the downsizing It's all in here. Can you have a variety in here or are they all cookie cutter? So they're there's not a huge variety. There's there's three different styles Could there be room for something else later? I mean, you know the interesting thing not later They all appear to have two stories with stairs too, which Try to like on the the cottage homes, right? Um I think it does you know related to the speed and the teenagers like the cottage homes do target Um an older demographic a demographic that's used to not living a condominium not living an apartment that wants a smaller building that has four walls it's There's a variety of people. I'm not trying to make any generalizations, but um You know the I think the cottage homes at will and single-family homes Will lend itself to families and an older demographic Well, but you're not going to keep you're not going to keep younger from buying it if they want to why would why would that be? Why would it be older? I think it feels like you just pulled that out of the air. Why would it be just older? You're trying to make it less threatening to us because there's fewer young people driving around What did you base it on all right marketing material how many handicapped facility cottages Will there be if it's done because we do have people who are in a handicapped situation or disabled All the sidewalks Going into the cottage type thing and the sidewalk, but still the house needs to or home Needs to be handicapped accessible To a person who is mobility challenged whether like my sister-in-law. She has polio She has to be on a scooter. She cannot walk So I mean it has to be something that a handicapped person Can accept and work with without having to I can't reach up there because I don't have the abilities to reach that it needs to come down Since we're onto this off of the traffic and onto the building I would Wish you would consider a mixed Um set of units. I'm not going to move from a three bedroom house to a three bedroom house Even if it is smaller So if you're there's been a lot of discussion in my figure about downsizing people with big homes you mentioned this Um, don't sell them because they have no place to go. I don't need the size of my house But I couldn't buy another one that it's a smaller size Uh, two bedrooms one bath or even one bedroom house would so I wish you'd Reconsider that there could be a mix and that the smaller one could be all on one floor If you're if you wish to have downsizer, I think you need to consider. Thank you for that. I agree Thank you. Yes, and I realized just building on that one It could be a duplex with you know one living unit on the first floor and one on the second Because I you still need to get enough income from the unit to make it viable. I get that And I'm the rebel of the neighborhood is you can tell what I came in on Um when uh, my husband and I first got married we looked around for a house And we could not find a house. We found the property. I'm at 29 Hebert road and we had it built And it was perfect for just us too And what made it special as the only place that we wanted to be Was the woods area and going down in there We have people from burlin street wheelock street all over that come and hike down there Bicycles snow shoes and stuff and my husband and I we rode ride our bikes and stuff We made trails for people All the way down since 1988 We made trails for people so whatever you walked or rode or snowshoed It could almost go all the way down to the Ford dealership And that's the way we love it and now after my husband's passing I go down there and guess what? That's my church That's where I go to sit and meditate And talk to the upper beings and thank him for this beautiful open area That we have to live in safely And whether I see one of the older persons just walking with a cane not necessarily susanna But some of the others Gloria and stuff walking with assistance and stuff on the street And I'm telling you some of those cars coming down ain't going ain't going slow and sometimes You see them going a little bit too fast Over the side they kind of go So there's got to be something to Slow the traffic coming down. But like I say that is always going to be the place that I go to to meditate And enjoy the solid thing the only thing I hear sometimes Is the train coming through And that brings me a good feeling saying, okay, we've got the train But we've got everything else and it makes me happy And I know living there and stuff makes everybody else On the happy side that we are Where we are And want to have it retain that same feeling with here And have it retain as it is here. That's just my feeling Thank you. And that That was an important part of when we laid this out Out of the 70 acres over 50 of it will remain like that I think we're going to come back to traffic for a minute I don't know if you know this the last time The Fecto company proposed building back here. They proposed a road through there too And the city ultimately would not allow it What they asked them to do was build a switchback with a down River street up into their development And what they were going to do was put a high curb here So emergency vehicles could go over here and not have to walk the switchback But ordinary cars couldn't couldn't mount that curb That's where the city was 15 years ago And I'm disappointed that none of our counselors are here today and gene is here and he ran for a counselor He's not on the council. Yeah, I think that was a much bigger project. It was a bigger project No doubt about it and money is a there's a problem with it But you seem to have pretty close Five o'clock people are out of work My question is about development rights. Um, I am no longer on the board of directors and I speak for myself But I was on the board with Howard Coffin's wife and we at the time were fighting Spectal in 2005 And we went to a lawyer and we wouldn't go on the court if we had to but the lawyer Had said that when the land went from specter from babcock to the local savings bank The law was different from what it was now and that the development rights were not conveyed during that subdivision The the development the laws are being treated differently now with the way the laws are now but any rights that would There were no rights conveyed to Mr. Specto from the Northfield savings bank And and even though he maintains that he even owns our land he owns everything and he's oops going to build on our property too Because he owns that property. You're talking about the condos the condos. Yeah, right So I noticed on the internet that the development rights were sold separately for $250,000 And my question is do you know for sure that there are development rights? Because our lawyer, I mean everyone has a different opinion and also the the head of the title at the time, uh, mr Mark Scatino of the state council for lawyers title insurance corporation was going to testify for us And say that if if there were any units built Where are they where the cap and heights was going to be that his organization was not going to to Ensure the title insure their titles because of the situation that he agreed and he was a lawyer that there were I think the assessment is what you said is that there are a lot of different opinions about that Right, and so the law the law was changed doesn't have anything to do with development rights up on no But I thought you had to purchase the development rights from separate. I was told That the $250,000 was paid To purchase the under contract whatever to put the development rights So you could do this development So the development rights that So we do have it under contract, but we didn't know all this what you're talking about The development rights that he advertised are up in here, right and After waiting through all the legal stuff Even though it is part of the same contract that we signed we're not proposing anything You're not what we're not proposing anything in here because it's very confusing Yeah, yeah, but not but not this not this parcel This is a separate parcel the development rights when somebody went bankrupt right and then in northfield took them That that related to there's this is where it gets really confusing and you go to the city It's all on public record if anybody wants to read it The factos wrote a letter the city attorney wrote another letter and then the city went and recorded this This recreational Right, so that's what's on public record right now is that there's a recreational isn't right there And we're we're not we don't I mean in fact if you were to look You know the idea of the walkability here is that this actually You know exits out to where all the trails are and where that easement is so there's not No, it is for that that's what he advertised it is part of all the same contract, but Whenever we get to closing we will we're not interested enough for all the reasons you brought up But we didn't know that when we you know like it's advertised a certain way We didn't know all that until we dug into it and said, okay, this is not Well, he went through lawyer after lawyer after lawyer as soon as they disagreed with him He got our new one. Yeah, and then it ended up to where he was willing to negotiate the wealth They don't take me to court Put on the roof so you you know all this stuff to get his prepo likes to go through and because the market went Yeah Yeah, and there's one back Okay And maybe I can't remember dates five years ago, it's it's now a city park It's no longer recreation easement But what I wanted to say I live at 24 Isabelle circle that's four houses up from the bottom So I've certainly been the beneficiary of the limited traffic That we've seen those woods, especially when my kids were little or my sanity I still very clearly remember My husband being at home and watching the kids and walking down the street and hearing the screaming And coming around the corner and the screaming receding. I couldn't hear the kids anymore And I would get over the hill and into the woods And I would forget all of those trials and tribulations of young childhood motherhood and it was really important to me and I was one of the people that Helped fight off among many that helped fight off back though drb meeting after drb meeting after drb meeting I have really grave Concerns about number one the traffic I think I think if this we do this it needs sidewalks here. Hebert needs some attention. Hebert is a disaster since they narrowed it We need deeded access To the preserved acres for the rest of the neighborhood So it's not just under the control of this hoa to decide whether the rest of the neighborhood Has it that said the housing crisis in this state and in central vermont is very real Its impact is severe And the impact it is having on vulnerable populations I won't say should does leave many people just Breft and not knowing what to do would I like to see this be all low-income housing and and and sure absolutely But 36 units And and then also the single it loosens the faucet It gives space in the system for other housing to not be so crazily priced My house is is less than 1200 square feet. We have one bathroom We raised our four kids there that house we asked we were we want we want to sell $320,000 to list it. It's insane. We need we can do something about this by not immediately shutting down A proposal what facto had Was egregious he he he just you know, he was going to put A house on every quarter acre all the way down the hill It was terrible. This is a cluster development If if this isn't just like the thin edge of the wedge where this gets built and then we start like expanding out Cluster development it saves all those woods. Yes, it's not the flat lock that we love in the field And I am going to miss that and be heartbroken But it preserves That place where trish finds her sanity over the edge in the rocks where I found my sanity so for so many years Let's not reject this out of hand and let's think about Other vermonters besides ourselves. We are housed. We are so privileged And i'm going to stop before I do anything else I just had a question is the um Is the closing of this property contingent on you guys getting drb zoning approval? Yes So if it doesn't work out, you're not holding on to a million dollars worth of property Good question I would I I don't know this woman's name, but I would just like to second what she has just said I think Heather uh I think we don't want to turn away a proposal that is possibly Preserving some of the things that the neighbors wish to have Such as the open space and the and the walks And have another development developer come in A few years later that is not a good development So, I mean, I think it's to our advantage to work together with you And uh I not just say no I I'm definitely not in favor of just saying no But if we could know ahead of time and with a crystal ball if these units would not address the housing crisis Then we would want to say no So you said it's too too early with fluctuating construction costs and all all the contingencies to say with the price Point is but our whether we're Whether those of us who are on the liberal side want to help with the housing problem Want to say yes or no would seem to be contingent on whether these houses really will address that problem And if we can't know that it can't get any guarantees because it's impossible for you to guarantee at this point Then how are we supposed to know what position to take? I don't know if I can I I don't want to pretend like I'm coming but every year for the conference and the state of Vermont they have a kind of thing When we build additional units it may not be the target that we're looking to solve But this is close enough that it allows people to sell their house So open up other units that are are that missing middle could domino effect It's it's a domino effect. And again, I'm you know, that's from one seminar from an economist in the state of Vermont Um, and I'm an engineer not an economist, but that's that's what I heard. That's plausible. Perhaps I'm also the editor of the bridge Anyway, I had a question about I just maybe clarification and I think the person Answered it the land that you're not planning to develop that would be Um That those steeper slopes that would be available for recreational use for the folks here now and anyone who wanted to But it would be steep slope. So it would be like what's the Would there be a walk through like where people could walk on that steep area and really see what it's like I'm happy to after this need to walk back there with anybody that's interested um Those yeah, it's it's steeper slopes, but you know the trail, you know, there's crag, you know, it's Vermont, right? There's crags There's there's a little privilege The trails can go parallel to the grade and up a little bit. Um, I think there's more than adequate, you know opportunity back there Um, you know, there's trees and brush, you know, you clear a couple of that, you know, either formally or informally How so many trails in Vermont develop? Um, there's plenty of opportunity back there today. So would part of your development include sort of um Making sure there are trails back there that people can navigate You know, it's a good conversation. I think it's worth talking about I I don't know the area the way you guys do. I rode my bike back around there It seems like there are Trails and maybe you ma'am or the one I don't know My husband and I were the ones from 88 that we made the trails down there and after he passed in 2010 I was not able to maintain All of them. So just the basic ones up here That's clear. It does look like there's a pretty extensive trail system That goes far beyond this parcel Yeah From what I from what I could just write So, but certainly we're not you know, we're not Right, that's why I've never been there because frankly when I'm out here. I don't really want to do Well, you might encounter a bear. You might encounter a fox. You never know what you're going to encounter for animals Right, so you might not encounter bears again with the development Well, anyhow, I just wanted to ask because there's another development the one up on northfield street Which is planning a similar thing in a similar style like a horse shoe around the flatter development and It's another thing where um, it'll be recreational but on steep slopes You know in this and you know, you guys there's all it actually makes it accessible for people Now maybe people want to really be in the woods and it's now a tree lined street and it's not the same We have to just acknowledge it's not the same, right? But It will be very accessible for people that want to do, you know, walk a loop walk up through the the park and You come around so I think George you had a yeah I'm kind of concerned that you're getting a slightly false impression of what we're after here The the use of the woods is important as you are six or seven people say yeah at last night's meeting My opinion was that the traffic issue was by far The biggest and most important issue to all the people who were there last night We actually had a show of hands on that. I believe the traffic issue seems to Be taking second place now and for me It's it's the primary it's the primary issue that you're going to run all these cars through here And I would suggest again you buy it right away from the facto company and Figure out a way to run a road up from down below I'm also curious about what that little l-shaped spur is in the upper left That looks like a fallback position for a road perhaps. What why did you buy that land? No, that's all one parcel That's just There must have been when they did when they carved out the condo association. They must this is how Just what he sold. Yeah, okay. It probably was one lot and then they carved out the condo I see there's no access from the road there I don't Maybe if you got it right away and cut through the condos or something So maybe Maybe you could say something about are you guys exploring that option for a second road? Relate, uh, no not related to what gave previously mentioned about the agreements I mean, I think first we got to look at what are all the mitigation stuff because again, that's like even if you get That right away that you talked about sir. Like it's really steep. So you're you know, that's going to be a million dollar And are you ever going to repeat that money? Probably not Well, that's pretty easy to figure out. Well, then we'd be selling what you guys don't want then we Then we'd have to carve the whole thing off Well, I think I think that that those are equally valid. You're right. Yeah We don't want cars as much as we also have access to nature. So yeah for the same reason And I'm as an engineer. I'm really interested in the concern about the traffic Like I feel like we need to make sure that's adequately addressed and you know, I have young kids They bike they walk they play they way down in the road like they do stupid things And like we need people to feel safe and we need to be safe and we are adding additional traffic I can't get around that but What I need to make sure is that the additional traffic we're adding It doesn't make it like, you know, if one if it's a road and five cars go down it and a kid is At night wearing black laying in the road like, you know, that's that's dangerous Like the we have to have like additional traffic, right? It doesn't necessarily make something go from Safe to unsafe. I think there's probably things that like some of those corners Some of the sight lines that are currently unsafe and they're and they'll remain unsafe And I want to try to work with the neighborhood and understand it better and and improve it so that You know regardless like, you know, it's the same situation I want to make things safe I know it's a cliche that like safety is number one priority But like as an engineer we're overly cautious and we like things safe I'm looking over here and uh If you happen to go over towards forest drive From here and stuff there is It looked like a old Four types Road that goes out It's not the one that comes up behind the condos, but it does go out to either forest drive or uh to um Robin Hood Drive, I can't remember but it is sort of like one of the old old roads that was never really maintained But you can tell when you go over there. There is an area and you've got your There is what used to be an old road that went over there So I did not know and uh, if that was something that would be thinkable for an other access and that's why I had Invited, uh, michael, uh, philbrook from over in that area to stop by The motelier pd I think we have to leave I don't know I told him if he came no uniform I I think we have to be careful that We're concerned about the traffic Another access would But uh, thank you very much that you're not going down to 302. Thank you very much You're not going somewhere else because if you think the traffic would be bad to this place Just coming here imagine what would happen if it went down over the hill or down over this hill So it would not only be the people that live here, but everybody that goes down Unless you know Now come down here. So we want to be clear that I'm assuming none of these people want that And when we laid this out the goal is like it's a continuation of isabel circle It's the we want it to be the same neighborhood and and I get it like 40 years from now people in these houses will still refer to people these houses is living in the new development, right? Like But but the the neighbor the kids will play together the neighbors will play together I We really laid it out as you know as this this is basically the only right-of-way that squares up and it was Envisioned when when your neighborhood was built to be a continuation of of it and we're trying to make a modest small Expansion of houses there. Well, don't say modest because that sounds like it's sugar coating it Well, it took 20 acres on 72. I feel like 20 acres on 72 is modest One thing that I think we need to address You don't have the ability I think to build sidewalks on isabel and hebert So can't will you have an arrangement with the city that if you do this? Sidewalks will be put in and speed bumps. Yes Yeah, I think these are conversations that we need to have with the city I mean, I think if you guys come out to meetings and you talk about that I I And I drove the I'm not sure where you'd put a sidewalk But I'm not, you know, that's not my field But certainly speed bumps and we'll have sidewalks Sir you had your hand up for quite a while. I'm jim coppick New resident to hebert Right, we'll get all the traffic And former civil engineer the development code seems to Encourage or require the second entrance has the city given you A reading as to what when you're required to put in the second entrance We need to work through it like we don't really have the frontage to make that connection And I believe there's not a mandatory requirement But as you know that the codes are dense and there's a lot of different parameters and we'll work through that with the city Um You found that that citation Yeah, there's a specific language about a second entrance, but I can't tell whether the city sees it as mandatory or at 800 feet in Cincinnati where I did a lot of work 800 feet was considered A long cul-de-sac and this is much more than that and um So at what point how many dwelling units how many feet for fire access Does the second entrance become more important? Thank you Anybody over on that side of the street? There's somebody up behind you. Okay. Yeah. Hi. I'm Emily bird. I live 19 is about um, I'm wondering if you can help us visualize the footprint of this Uh development where the clearing will take place because I mean a lot of us know the loop over here And like how much further will it extend beyond there? I'm just having trouble kind of figuring out the leg of Of the impact. Yeah to be able to comment. I I I do as well. I mean I until it's surveyed Let me I there's another sheet here. That's an existing conditions that shows the imagery better Let me see if I can separate these two Say why he's looking for that that just I like this college concept. I've seen it Before and it makes a nice neighborhood Does anyone just want to compare like we have an imagery with the with all the the units on it Um and that one so you can compare where the clearings are to where So the clearing in the wood where we have the trails right here How much further down do you ballpark that's the clearing would extend to? A little helpful just to kind of understand the extent because another concern I have is like the noise pollution from root 302 and Trees can be a buffer and so depending on how much of the Tree buffer gets cleared. It could also have a pretty major impact on the neighborhood noise levels Potentially so I was wondering if you've looked into that or if you can comment Or a better yet if you have any ideas on how to minimize the extent of trees Cutting down trees, um, especially for the houses right along here. We're interested how much of a Remaining buffer there will be of the trees between the noon development and the existing development To maintain privacy and disturbance during the actual activity if this goes through Environmental pollution Yep, that's a great point too. Yep, there's Deep lots, um, so the ones along here, uh, there will be a lot of it that will remain As you can see right right compared to here and that's a cottage home But you know the house will be on the front half of those of those lots It lines up a little bit with the with the clearing But but they're deep lots and and as sun gets it gets in there Five years from now it'll it'll be thick And then all of this trees down here is is going to remain We have VHP does have sound experts, um, trees like we're not going to clear the trees, but you did comment about unsound Trees are not a great, um, buffer for sound anyway, so Even with the leaves Is that second strip of trees going to disappear That looks like that's going to be clear cut. They're going to go away Yes, this is going to this is going to stay but that second strip is going to go The single family home ends and where the Next step like is it in this open space or is it further? I guess it's much further down. I'm having trouble just getting Understanding how this plays out on the ground. So these right here are the single family lots That were back I thought that was green space This is a small circle Right here And these are single family lots and this will loop around to the cottage clusters down below Where about would be for the cottage cluster start? It was the cluster Right right in that second clearing you put it up there so we can see like where is Isabelle and where is condos And we're happy to email these drawings around like you know, if you don't feel like you're comprehending it right now We're happy to email the slide deck around Everybody on the email us Right under his fingers So the very top center that looks like that's Isabelle road Okay, got it The end of the lot like how deep will it go to view of like a reference on the land right here of like how deep these single family lots will So like the road's going to be on the other side So Or maybe after mine It's from the from where we're standing here You know, those lots are about 140 feet or more And you know, there's the scale bar down here Um, you know about the length between my knuckle and different my thumb is 120 feet. Can't really hear you The distance between my knuckle on the strong and the fingertip is about 120 feet So are they budding up against the backillage of the houses? I guess it would probably I guess it might help to comprehend right so You can see the house here in between the property line and the house how deep these lots are 50 percent to double What is this distance right here between their backyard and this line? And what is that? Is that the 50 foot bluff right there? Yes, it is the power lines It's 25 feet from the center of the power lines to the property line. That's in red right there And that's where this tree line starts And then it sounds like you're going to maintain this tree line for your I mean individual buyers Who knows what they're going to do but for your development, you're not touching these trees And there's a rear setback too. I think they're you know, they're just as interested in not seeing you as you them That's all I got to say So anybody that would be building anything would have to get a building from us And they'd have to go through the public process for that How soon will you sell those individual lots? you know, it's You really need to get pretty far into the project before this really becomes available because they need access to you know all the sewer lines and connections and whatnot so A little bit later not you know the early stage would be to put Something in here and maybe have a model home where people can take a look and figure out if this is something They're interested in and off and then you know to gradually expand I mean ideally the whole thing could be done in two years or with workforce. Maybe it takes three It's hard to say, but you know, obviously as soon as you could Sell these you want to make them of the elderly Yes, who is a a cred who's mentioned in the flyer? That's my that's my company. Oh, okay. Yeah So then who's Stonewall? That's the that's the LLC that was formed with these other partners that you mentioned including Tom and Karen. Thank you for being here today Yeah, if anyone has any questions about who I am I realize one of your neighbors who has never met me I explain to you who I am Who are you? Who Karen and I are and how long we've been here and how we do business Just get a hold of those at our home or we can that be the chat after this Can you just tell her? I mean Does everyone have their questions answered? Well, I think this is the next question. Yeah I understand pretty advanced chemistry, but what I don't understand is Why you're getting all that space like you say you only need a certain amount of space To But Why so much So it's all considered one lot So it's one parcel So so you the only way that you could do something different would be to buy it and subdivide it anyway Or the factos, I guess Thank you Thanks Get up here you're 50% so high I've met some of you go to foxborough And watch the patriots with one of you My name is tom lozon. This is my wife garen and So you heard a little bit about me first of all the lot in montpelier. It wasn't a wonderful gas station It was a horribly polluted site. We purchased it. We had planned on putting an office building there We made a little bit of a bet on montpelier that they would build a parking garage They decided not to and that's fine because then there was a housing crisis first a pandemic So during the pandemic most of our building crews are home They couldn't be building now We've seen you know building costs. There's still horrible Product and supply shortages the supply chain is just broken right now It's going to fix itself But it's going to take a little while so we have pivoted on that lot looking at the need for housing Our plan when we designed that building it had to be six feet above the sidewalk Because four feet is a floodplain montpelier Throws an extra two feet at it and they asked you to put your building your first floor at what we call grade Six feet above the floodplain. So we agreed to do that It always occurred to me that we better warn people not to wear skirts If they work on the first floor Because at six feet it was just the building didn't present well So what we decided to do is raise the building now that there's no parking garage And I think you all know what parking is like in downtown montpelier We're actually going to raise the building and up at three feet and then we're going to do four stories of Residential apartments and we'll rent those apartments. They won't be they won't be condos. They'll be rentals. So that's our plan For the polluted site on state street that we have since cleaned up You know in terms of who we are Karen's family is originally from massachusetts. I'm one of eight kids. My dad worked for the state of vermont grew up In the beginning in new jersey and then we moved to vermont when my dad took a job in it With the state my mom was a stay-at-home mom. Mom is still with us dad is not all of my siblings are still with us so pretty fortunate in that respect and Went to school at spalding high school Given you my biography here Went to school at spalding Did my undergrad at st. Mike's did my graduate at columbia Went to work for goldman sacks on wall street and found out I had a real talent for business and vision and Came back to visit mom and dad met karen Fell in love. She hated the city. I loved her more than I loved the city. Here. We are two kids later Decided when karen decided to be a stay-at-home mom. She needed something to do So We bought our first piece of real estate. That was 32 years ago. So how do you relate to this project? So I am an investor in this project and the reason i'm an investor is the housing crisis is real And it is affecting everything when you're paying 125 dollars for a plumber to come to your house It's it's partly because of the housing crisis Because people can't find a place to live. I mean literally we do own a lot of residential units. We have an advertised one When a housing unit becomes available. I usually call someone that we know Most recently it was central vermont council on aging karen. I've been huge supporters of that organization So I called them and I said does anyone in your organization need housing? And their executive director said, you know, it's pretty fortunate that you're giving us a call We just hired a young lady. She's been looking for three weeks. She was going to pass on the job. What do you have? And she looked at the apartment. The price was fair. She loved it And she took it So that's what we've been doing with the available housing stock that karen and I control Um, I absolutely agree with you ma'am. I mean you look at the price of housing right now $375 a square foot to build is obscene It was $250 a you know a year ago per square foot the price has gone up 50 percent So I'm really hoping That by the time we get through permitting if we get through permitting, you know I realize that there are some of you here who will never Be convinced even if we decided to build two homes, you wouldn't want to see it And I understand that you know, I think this is a modest development. So the reason that karen and I are involved Um, I don't tend to lose money. I mean, I never started anything Um thinking that I want to lose money, but I can tell you right now for those of you for for those people who are fortunate enough to know who we are Um at this point in our lives making money isn't You know, isn't high on our list Losing money, you know, not losing money is high on our list But quite frankly, we've been blessed with a lot more than most folks will ever have and you know, we're interested in In participating in great projects. We fund a lot of young entrepreneurs. Uh, we provide venture capital to a lot of young entrepreneurs, so You didn't poke me once thank you so But if you got any but you know when I looked at this project and when Gabe approached me I thought it was a reasonable You know a reasonable modest project, you know, we're not Looking to propose. I'm not looking to participate In a you know 100 or 50 unit, you know development I think the scale of this is good. I think it allows You know our biggest issue right now is that there's no There's no entry level housing There are plenty of folks who who are over 50 I'm 60. Karen is not Karen is not So no, and we still you know, we still live in a pretty big house much more than You know much more than we need but there was someone who just said well, you know, where do I go? I'd like to sell my house, but where do I go? Um And many of you are probably at a point in your lives where if you could sort of swap homes If you could sell your bigger home And then buy a smaller home perhaps a smaller home that was single level with some bedrooms upstairs As long as it doesn't cost you more to do that You're perfectly content to do that because you're at a point perhaps in your lives where You know a little quality of life and maybe a house that requires less maintenance Is more important to you and that would free up your three or four bedroom home For a family that's looking to That's looking to relocate and and find a job So now i'm still involved with the Governors administration still still serve on a few state boards was just elected Was mayor 12 years in berry stepped down Took a four-year break Ran again for the council not mayor Reason being mayor takes a lot of time And I wasn't willing to devote, you know that kind of time So You know, I have a lot of energy this afternoon I was late because I was loading a I was loading an excavator the young man didn't know how to load it But they discovered some of the poles in the outfield that our little league field had fallen over and the opening day is tomorrow So we had to get that excavator loaded so that we can get the poles fixed So that's where i'm going when we're when i'm done here to try to put the little league field back together and So, uh, yeah to all of you, that's who I am. That's who we are and if you have any questions, let us know Thank you. Thanks everybody for coming out. Um, are there any other comments people want to say? Well, everybody's here I'm i'll stay behind if people want to have individual conversations What's the next step Uh, so next step would be getting the same kind of feedback from the city that we got from you It's called a sketch review So, you know submit what we have and we'll hear the development review board comments And then and then it's a lot of work to get everything ready for actual permanent What's the date of that meeting? We haven't we haven't filed yet. We're hoping to get it in that it would be june 6th would be the next one But we have to file by tomorrow So it doesn't happen by tomorrow that it would be the next one, which i'm not sure what do you know the date of the next one? I don't know the date. Yeah Hypothetically gave how much trouble would it be to push the buffer zone further downfield? Um Same same design just push it maybe Can we can we push it 50 yards down further start hitting really steep Yeah, the buffer zone. Yeah, the buffer zone if you added another 75 feet How much trouble would that be? I think we could probably make it work. Um, one of the things we're at here is we're using um White light our photography. Um, it's sketch paint, right? We want to get good input from you guys We want to get good input from the rb. We need to get our surveyor out here and they got to walk you out Like we need better data to go to vinyl. Um, so I hesitate to you know Off the bat give you one way or another but I said hypothetically hypothetically it might happen There's that's a ledge there that first bridge. It's all ledge Yep You're up against blasting. Yes, ma'am So is there a deciding factor you go to the city at your next meeting and they say yes or no? And if they say yes, it's done or where does the deciding Faster happen. It's all the way at the end of the whole process What comes after your city meeting? So after the city meeting we do we do all that engineering we go back and apply for permits There's two permits that we have to have one is a major site plan and the other is subdivision Yeah, and they kind of you want to do them hand in hand So we get the cottage homes require additional permit the subdividing land for the single family homes Which the cottage homes will be one or it actually straddles the right away. So it'll be two parcels So it's two parallel processes at any point during that someone in the city or your permit process could say no You can't do it. Is that possible? Yes Yeah, and then you have to go to the act 250 you have to clear all the environmental hurdles And then you can come back and you get your building It's a very long very expensive process and and a process that invites public participation and comment Anybody else want to say something publicly or thanks everyone for coming out appreciate you Thank you