 and welcome back to the breakfast and plus TV Africa first major conversation this morning is going to be discussing of course the biggest story across Nigeria today which is the attack on the Abu Jaqaduna rail line the NRC is currently suspended rail travel until we're able to figure things out and you know ensure that it is safe for passengers we're speaking this morning with Yehuzad Gatso is a an intelligence and anti-terrorism expert who was also on that train when the attack happened Mr. Gatso good morning thanks for joining us good morning for you very well thank you for a minute yes and of course I would as always start by saying you know we're glad that you know it wasn't worse than even that it happened yesterday and we still have you here with us so I want you to start with sharing exactly what transpired on that train do you know and how did you and every other person make it to safety well actually uh it is only the the who is arriving the that's the driver of the train that you will be able to provide a clear explanation of what's going on because what happened it happened as a front and it accepted mainly and only the the front post it doesn't accept the other posts so there was no shooting sporadic shooting as people are talking about even if there was it happened as the only at the front where the the grenade decimated or the bomb or whatever decimated but there was no sporadic shooting around the other courses of the train so that's what really came through so but it still continued to run up to some kilometers before it stopped and then everybody got scared before what happened uh what happened and uh people uh were supported and then necessary arrangement was made and then uh the people moved okay but uh would you say that this attack is a terrorist attack or you would uh describe it as an attack from bandits because there's been a lot of back and forth whether or not this is a terrorist attack or it's actually uh that's from the bandits as terrorists or they're giving this learning as terrorists as far as i'm concerned they are all terrorists because anybody who volunteer only for different jobs and for those things why not activity is a terror so as far as i'm concerned uh who so ever or have uh have done so must have a very organized criminal psychology a very organized criminal organization a very organized criminal community a very organized criminal community a well prepared and a well planned activity so that's what i mean so whether we know that bandits or so many people and then there are some of them they are not supporting us and that is exactly what other terrorists are telling but that is why i'm describing the tradition of the color of the electricity matter on the only on the position that uh asking or making a clearing for or asking the government whether they are declared as terrorists or not they are still terrorists what happened to the current to the iphone that is clear as terrorists what happened to the vote around that is clear that are terrorists we have not seen any security uh being able to manage the issues the vote around father so that means you i'm sorry i'm not going to manage the iphone that has been made as a terrorist so as far as i'm concerned that is not the reason and as a professional uh i i believe uh probably uh those who are around natural uh i think they are not guiding them i'm not guiding other police for a technology make it submission that uh what is really transparent for this for it and i keep making uh attaching i'm not only attaching that i keep making results there that are 30 thousand that don't have good knowledge of what this is for it it's all about but especially the connection between one girl and another between one police the another one another one thing and another so and uh this new uh kind of um uh conditions or approach is it's a waste of time it's a waste of resources it's the advantage of attention they know what they're supposed to do the technology the technology and the we the professional won't supposed to observe them there's not three supposed to be there and they know the vote that all the criminals everybody knows where it's placed everybody knows where they are that is why yesterday when i had the announcement that people paid me to the people by myself that he instructed that uh i should go upstairs and uh before the that's what just as a follow-up to the question can you please help us understand the difference between vandals terrorists and bandits because we have the minister of information lai muhammad on national tv on another platform saying that for bandits to be called terrorists they need to bear flag what is the difference can you help us understand the difference between vandals terrorists and bandits so probably from what i understand normally uh uh a fan of um differentiated them by dramatical uh probably uh the the logistic uh that is you call thank you for those people who are vandalizing and the people talking and you call people terrorists uh probably because you have one link or one certificate uh and another but the problem with nigeria is somebody there was never any research any research that you can you can you can lay your hands on as a kind of um a root course research root course analysis background a research that has been conducted in order to answer this time that this is uh uh so that's why the decision in this is going to make the kind of a general discussion that is what i take land on this and land on it doesn't have any experience and then he didn't go through the the the kind of experience and effort to come out and tell us that that these are vandals and these are terrorists all right but as far as we are concerned professionally uh anybody who is committed a violent act that is leading to the destruction of life or property and creating uh insecurity uh uh uh participation for whatever measures that is making people to do some such it's a trouble all right mr getzo um we're going to go you know talk a little bit more about this you know this aspect um and i properly identify them i don't know in what must be done but i want us to go back to you know the incident and you said that um you know the train was still in motion for a couple of more kilometers before it stopped i was going to clarify for us if it was stopped by the driver it was stopped because of the damage done to the the front's carriage of the train i think uh uh you know i just kind of a chaotic situation everybody is thinking of kind of working with you this way how am i going to success if you get my third success life what should be happening so uh it's very particular if you know it happens at night it doesn't happen in the real time so it's a kind of confusion that nobody anybody that can give you any information any accurate information is trying to study a kind of a life or to create stories but if you show you that of course a problem is the part that you only have only this part you know the problem is not a very long life a very long life so probably with that and through the PPP you can be able to use that part some valuable information that uh one can lay the time on and then make analysis with i've been doing that kind of thing so i can help uh uh any part of the plan even just from the video piece that you see and that it is going to be a that a bit of trust that's why i think and that's why the incident happened and it didn't affect any part of other parts okay nothing it affects only the front uh course which is has the impact of the control of the of the of the okay um so so what does yeah so can can you share with us i mean you're you're an intelligence and antiterrorism expert can you share with us what this means um the the fact that bandits are now going after rail lines does this in any way mean that you know they no longer have enough people on the roads to attack and so they're trying to get those rails uh you know damage so that people can go back to the roads or does it really just mean that they you know their their powers and the the audacity that they have is is growing and so they are now going after even trains and then my life that it is the explosion the inability capability lack of understanding of of and lack of understanding because that of course you know the economy in the country is so harsh and so terrible so these guys were conducting their activities by conducting in the remote locations in the north western part and north western part of north east other part of the country part of all tigers can be in the country house okay roughly their cattle and setting them to sell and make sell out of them then we move into the next step whereby we are igniting people uh as the remote locations then town then urban and the semi-urban and it's actually up there in the city so it has to realize that if this is not really for us that ransom is not for us because the wife is not in the wrong because the wife is not in people who are struggling to eat struggling to survive who are struggling to have a serious uh starving to make it not to move at half the moment so it has to realize that uh a government has not been paying attention to that so how what would they be to create and support the government to have attention to pay attention on what they are doing there's probably a dialogue will be a real dialogue will be conducted or a rent price will be conducted and that is some part of some action so as they realize that we have the real one we have the real one are in a new religion especially the people under force so by by making the attack in the trend it has given a wider and a more wider attention so it is up for the attention it's now from the member of the government the city government and then the area so the area will be high that will be mounted by both the elite and the people on the authority as well as the other insolences under finance in addition there are six things that i want to do both for me the people on the authority and most of you the elite but most of you the citizens of the constitution and this is the one Nigeria is facing uh a non-enemy that is the bilateral enemy how come you mean Nigeria is facing another non-enemy that is the most lacerate enemy and both are the complexing kind of a conflict between the form of one and the angle of one nation in the rest of the struggle for the economy the economic survival struggle for power survival and so on that's it then number three of the most important in property whereby uh uh almost more than 80 to 90 percent of the people men we are not supposed to be they are they are they are critical because we don't have we don't have a pattern we are not advantageous and number four there is more modernization there was no enemy before made by Nigeria the only thing that is not going to be Nigeria's government is to keep the money because they were most really out of position of tracking and checking whether this money will really neutralize in the process of killing you if you got this also why you call it and then number five the the corruption is becoming has become so enormous to the extent that uh you remember the minister of finance that mission that uh within a couple of months uh even uh almost two to three years ago they are holding back and then the people who are the next one at uh these amount of money and then also you can look at the budget presented by the president you know i i i started here and then i challenge the administration from all the budget they have made especially on the second we have which is very clear that the money is uh projected so what happens to the implementation of that budget so that means that the budget for security that has been done for 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 and 2021 we know we have to figure and we have seen the influence of all the money that is coming through the revenue from the oil so and the scope of the budget is very small so you see you have the money why do you utilize the money until the situation is deteriorating in the country and then finally number six the government the civil government the lack of the synchronization between the civil government and the local government even though you can see that you are not in the local government because what we have is so like in fact it is not the first time and what we said so as far as you can see the local government is just by air that means but the approach in there is more and for now it relates to the budget the approach being used even the government and so if you look at this is something that the governor of Zafara that's a total budget that's of Niger they are kind of doing a duty for future with one another most really confronting the security challenge that is affecting the delirium of this okay could he also be let's look at you know this particular school of thoughts they believe that you know when insurgents want to cripple a system the target infrastructure and that's this is a public infrastructure could he also be that this is actually the you know the end game for this group of peasants sorry yeah who's that gets it can you hear us now what i'm saying you have some school of thoughts that believe that for insurgents usually the target is always to cripple the entire system they begin to target public infrastructure now could this also mean that this is also another means this is what their end goal end goal is targeting public infrastructure could it be could this be the aim of this attack to cripple the system by targeting government infrastructures you know we have internal conflict within the country so this internal conflict can be the target the priority the primary target why be attached to the public we have issues of funding it may be the target we have issues of foreign forces it may be the target we have issues around the the kind of public issues between the government agency it can be the most the most motivation factor why this kind of attack so if government if we really have a serious attack i expect them probably within 48 hours to come out with a blueprint that will tell their government will tell the public what they mean to answer it but now for anybody to kind of say that the target is to attack the public infrastructure it is attacking if they don't suppose you have to stress who is who does and then what is the moment i have the only justification in the attack to say here the attack is from the infrastructure because if this really you guys don't target the infrastructure you have so many public infrastructure that are in the spotlight are aware that you don't have any specific attack because you don't have enough access to the public infrastructure so if you have attack the qualities of this which if you have attack other federal institution which is more India if you have attack many other state that are more exclusive remember that you have an entity the primary which is far away from the center so if really the target is to attack the public infrastructure it is not attacking the entity the primary and the attack on the development they are more directly than indirectly that they are it's not even 123 less than their funding and you have so many other public infrastructure around that school has been attacked i didn't believe that the target is to hit the public infrastructure alone i am not going to keep in a diverse way which can only be proved by the intelligence finding which i accept if Nigeria is really in a country that manages uh uh uh to use intelligence to to to manage information and manage intelligence i accept them to provide at least intelligence to the list just a hint so the purpose to give the company confidence i remember the life because many people will not change the trend again in their life you know that's why many people will understand it from so it will also affect the performance of the The government of the United Arab Emirates, or Raja, a common man who only used to speak with the Panod Kedadi, Shia, the Sadina Abidara, Mr. Yohan, just to certify and certify to everybody that Nigerians can both manage and provide currency and system, which really explains that the government, the moment why the government felt in its promises working especially in respect to currency of life and property. Okay, Mr. Geto, talk a little bit more, because I'm really just looking at the very, very intricate details on this incident. Talk a little bit more about the explosives and the fact that they are using explosives now. I remember that in quite a while we've not heard of bomb blasts going on in northern Nigeria. It used to be the method of operation, mostly Boko Haram's method of operation, all the way to 2014, a little bit of 2015 I believe, but that seems to have stopped. So does this in any way put any fear in you that these persons might resort to using bombs once again? Well, the reality is that, yes, of course, who are the Boko Haram? I had been passing before many, many of the persons in this session, the leader of IED, that is a missing device. Yes. Now, it is a very clear issue of this moment. It is a saying that there is a clear relationship, or a clear behavioral approach, in the way of which the different groups of stimulus are affected in northern Nigeria and most of the northern Nigeria are affected in northern Nigeria as well. Because it is like a presiding order that people cannot achieve it after being tried. So, and it is very clear that there is probably some information that the amount of money and the amount of other value, value, value are being transferred to the leaders there, whereby many of the AEDs are moving in the same system and probably some of them are even moving in cash. The amount of cash, probably the correct, not only given to the local non-emissions, probably the direct non-emissions, and the non-emissions and so on and so forth. So, if we pass anything to the trade, by accepting our fee, while we can use a bomb or any instrument, I am thinking about it, it's an opportunity so that we can earn more attention and then help people be able to understand the whole world that we are still on ground. And then to also express that it is not only the work of arms that are operated in the most distant parts of the country, it is probably the same as the tactics of the country, which I have so many questions on that. We are not discussing the program, but I know I have so many questions on that issue of the sentence surrendering or whatever the problem. So, if we go through that, the use of exclusive divided, divided against the trade, this means we will go far away to probably attacking people in the airports, not only in the trade. Because that is an example. This is for Nigerian government. This is for Nigerian government. This is an important responsibility in Nigeria, that is to set up a road. To look at ourselves, I want to talk about self-assessment, and set the range before it is too late for all of us. Okay, let's quickly talk about could we have prevented this attack on the rail tracks? I mean, following the fact that you've had vandals in the past months across the country attacking, vandalizing and taking some critical components of the rails. As far as things are found, from what I understand, I have been leading the trade between the Minas and Niger and Niger, and I have used the trade in our country where I live today. So, where I live today. So, I don't see up to the day when this is going to come. The trend is that the trend is expected more suffer than in the Arab world. Why is that? There are a number of stages. If you look at the rail station, you have so many locations. You have a trend used to stop. Sometimes, where it used to stop for the one waiting for the other one, you have to wait for the other one to stop. You just have to stop because it doesn't have enough rail lines. So, what I assume is true is that there is a certain demand in which the authority of the Niger rail station in collaboration and partnership with Turkey isn't, as well as the forest market and other communities around the rail where the rail passes through. There is a nine-thirty-and-thirty measure using the modern technology of the CCCD and other things where there can be other charts if there's anything along the line of the rail in between one station and another. There are many associations, many intelligence companies through the partnership with the community, through the partnership with the forest market, through the partnership with other civil-regional structures, as well as the four-month organized security structure, and intelligence on a certain target will be in place. It will have been actually in place. But what happens are four leaders. It is the same thing, the same scenario, the same strategy. The way people are, are not being provided where the address arrives to, using the rightful intelligence to manage the lives and properties with our numerous villages, towns, urban and semi-urban communities. There's something that is being done to manage them with that challenge. Which means that there are various issues you must, in any way, ready to provide to the public. So I want people to be careful, and I want people to know that even their challenge is no longer possible. I cannot, in any way, trust them anymore. All right. So now I want you to talk with specifics, if you can, as to what must be done if we believe that the Nigerian government is serious about ensuring that travelers on the roads and through the rail lines and in the air are completely safe. What would you say must be done in response to what we're discussing this morning, the attack on the rail line, in order for the NRRC to be back in fully operation now to ensure that travelers are safe? Well, what I would say is that the intelligence team, the joint intelligence team need to put their thoughts together and work more closely with the forest merchant if they are available, and if they are not available. When I get a radio operation, it suggests strongly that if they really want to sustain the tempo and regard the confidence of the public and at the same time sustain and manage the security and intelligence wisely, there is need to have a kind of a unit, a specific unit for kind of engagement of forest merchant and using them in kind of a partnership and collaboration with other former and non-formal security agents. And at the same time, there is also need to conduct a full filing assessment of at least 10 kilometer radius yet a right between the rail line right especially in the areas of Jere, the areas of Djambusa, the areas of Ida, the areas of Audubandja, the areas of Gadar Malamomo, the areas of Achilugu, the areas of Kateri because these are the most notorious, most dangerous parts of Kaduna Abuja rail line and also Kaduna Abuja route if you are going by road. So there is need to also conduct a kind of use of collaboration between the air spy and the soldiers, the Nigerian army on the ground to move around and swipe some of those areas and also for women to expand a kind of secreting. That's why I started a very good job and I'm really committed to that and I would appreciate if you could come back because they started secreting some of the thick forests that we have, which the criminals are using is a hideout. And then I know there was also initiatives in the 80s and 70s from the records of the 90s whereby a forest machine as well as the other hunters are collaborating and partnering with security agencies within the local communities around. So if that could be done and then also a kind of the Nigerian law cooperation and the government of Nigeria to have a kind of scanner that will be used or any other device that can press the presence of the probably if there is a bomb or any of the exclusive device there so that something can be managed. And at the same time there is need to have a monitoring team either on air or by road or intelligence that will be moving around between one station and another so that they can have a reporting system whereby they can be reporting to the nearby station. Like I said, there are so many stations in between. So there is need to have a tracking mechanism whereby one station will be reporting to another and then the radio message that they are using probably cannot cover up to one station and another it's need to have that communication mechanism that will be utilized in tracking that will prevent any occurrence in the future. Okay, don't you also think that maybe it is high time we deploy a security surveillance camera on our the trainways and also the roads as well just to help mitigate all of these attacks? I don't think the CCTV is sustainable but there may be other security devices which I will not want to discuss on a public domain simply because there is need for us also to support the security operators in doing their job despite the cost but we know that they are not doing enough because they are handcuffed, they don't have training, they don't have space, they don't have orientation so they are not serious and they are not protected most of them, they don't have passion, no compassion and then no organized kind of partnership and synchronization and symmetry between the security operators but there are other devices which are more sensitive than CCTV that can be utilized so nobody should not, government and a general operation should not even allow anybody to know about those devices and these devices can be used in terms of scanning and the streaming and finding out and efficient out any other trainers and getting him or her or getting them wherever they may be and whenever they want to do their rubbish and against behavior and I believe also that's why from the criminality of terrorist behavior therapy within the forest of West half of the country, I know there are different groups and particular type of criminals but to some extent as far as I'm concerned the way Nigerian government is dealing with the criminals and criminality in managing situation in our forest I swear to God we are bringing criminals, we are not managing the situation, we are bringing criminals and then in the next few years it is going to be worst, people didn't change the direction of the approach we are using now. Mr. Getzo, in the interim the trains haven't suspended along that line I'm sure that they will be working towards bringing them back but I want you to, I know you may not have proper information on this but just to paint a clearer picture of what exactly we are dealing with here how do you think that these bandits have made it to the rail lines how do they move at those places maybe with motorcycles how did they get to that particular place where they planted the explosives is it possible that they can be spotted on their way there also would we now need to have armed officers and policemen on those trains to ensure that passengers feel somehow safer moving forward well the reality is we don't have personnel we don't have adequate personnel to do that and these criminals bandits, terrorists, whatever you call them based on my knowledge with the forest and some of the hard terrain and some of the cliffs and some of the difficult places yes of course they use different strategies they use motorcycles they move by road they move in disguise some of them use vehicles as drivers some of them even use expensive vehicles pretending and some of them are mixing up with affected communities around to conduct their activities around yes of course you can be spotted but the problem how do you conduct a lot of monitoring and tracking that you can get them spotted and then deal with the situation when you don't have the adequate personnel to do the job I have been advising the government if we really want to be silenced why can't we recruit at least 40 from each of the polling units so if you have 10 polling units in the political world you have 400 between the age of 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 and 22 who are very agile and we have so many unemployed youth roaming around even if they don't know remember that during the colonial administrators when our people cannot understand left and right they use a strategy so if you have 200 in the world and then in a given local government you have 10 political world then you have 4,000 so if you recruit 4,000 from each local government in Nigeria or from the front and distribute them in all those agencies based on the needs like air force, IME, VSS civil defense, immigration, customs police, NIA and so on and so forth and then those who are not educated after giving them good adequate training you can get sent as a tourist merchant we need to work back to the old strategies which we believe and I make with a professional and expert who know the forest character there must be utilization of a forest merchant either using them in a formal structure or as a non-formal structure either using them as age pieces or as an interest that should be engaged by the government so probably these are some of the things that need to be put to place before the train is turned back but at the same time government should work hard and the Nigeria Railroad Corporation should also work hard which is relevant for these tourist agencies and other non-formal intelligence structures available within the communities of the operations to be sure that the train is back in no longer time because the longer, the more they believe the more they build the confidence of the criminals that the government is even afraid of them government doesn't have the opportunity that they also generate momentum and have more confidence and believe that they can worst the much they have tested Alright, so I just think that you just took the question right out of my mouth because I was going to ask you how long do you think that the train services should be suspended for and like you have rightly mentioned you're saying it shouldn't be for too long so that it does not kill the morale of the people and this should also be a means where the Nigerian government should step up and boost the confidence of the people in the combat against insecurity and insorgency in Nigeria Well, at maximum, it shouldn't last more than two weeks at maximum, if the hire, that is the highest Well, it depends on you know what But if the intelligence and the spiritual operatives and government will sit off with responsibility within the need of much people they should allow the transport team Well, it depends, you know, when they are done fixing Yeah, Mr. Getzo, would it also be dependent on when they fix Can you hold on, Mr. Getzo? Apologies, I'm asking, wouldn't it also be dependent on when they fix the damaged rail line or rail track rather before they can now of course ensure that it is safer to travel on It might be more than two weeks from what it looks like I'm not a technical person I'm not an engineer so I cannot satisfy that but from my common knowledge as a layman in Nigeria because that is not my area If they can I think they should quickly try and fix it within three weeks that is the rail line, the ventilated rail line and then the rail will come back to operation within a week or less at maximum Yeah, but I mean, you're also not going to be throwing people back on the road or back on the rail simply because you fix the train and you fix the track You also need to ensure that people feel safe and so one week or two weeks while they are fixing these things be enough for them to also ensure that there's no repeat of this incident Let me tell you something No responsible Nigerian believe that Nigeria is safe Nigeria is not safe Nigeria is safe, the whole Nigeria is safe So we are just using confidence to move and to come out so that we don't die in our way But the reality, Nigeria is not safe now because there is nowhere that you can move even two kilometers Two kilometers, nowhere in Nigeria that you can move two kilometers with confidence and belief that you, from whom two kilometers have come out two kilometers confidentially believe in that nothing will happen to you even in Lagos, even in Potapot even in Aguja, even in the city of Manila even within the government houses I want to tell you people within the presidential village people are not safe the church was intelligent they will tell you that there are so many of the devices even around the presidential village that are not working even the so-called CCTV cameras that were installed in other places in the village they are not working and you don't have adequate personnel So Nigeria is not a safe land So we should stop this even ourselves so that we will fix this in Germany No, let them do something so that we will discourage the criminals in having the confidence and conviction that they have the capability to fight and all they have the ability the capability to do and own them The government need to prevent them But the more, the longer the government allow this thing to delete the process of allowing the French to resume the more you are building the confidence of the criminals and then you are taken away from other criminalities to imagine I mentioned, remember I mentioned one word I refuse to elaborate it for a reason because I am speaking of public domain we are bringing criminalities government institutions and security agencies are bridging are helping in bridging criminals and criminalities in all parts of the country going by the way we are managing security situations Mr. Getzo we would have to let it go here it's a conversation that is extremely important and can go on for days we hope for the best and we hope that the Nigerian government understands the angles that you've pointed out and the things that need to be done but thanks for the work that you do the government will always stay safe while you travel and of course continue to gather intelligence for security have a great weekend well that's the much we can take at this point in time if you are missed out on any part of the conversation it's alright to follow us on Facebook and Instagram to be part of the conversation you can also check out YouTube it's a Klaus TV Africa I am Mercier Bohol have a great weekend