 I'm Joshua Cooper and welcome to Cooper Union, what's happening with human rights around our world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii, in Moana, Nuiakea. Today's episode, we're focusing on setting a social and international order. Article 28, the UN Sustainable Development Goals and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Article 28 is so important because it says everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this declaration can be fully realized. And the Universal Declaration of Human Rights provides the power of ideas to initiate change in the world. UDHR outlines opportunities for a new direction rooted in inherent dignity and inalienable rights for dynamic sustainability and solidarity. And the UN Sustainable Development Goals reinforces those original rights and the UDHR provides opportunity for a social and international order. I'm so honored to be joined with a colleague who has just returned from the UN High-Level Political Forum, which is where the UN Sustainable Development Goals are always being discussed, but also where the voluntary national review takes place that actually allows countries to share how they're actually setting up this international order and really reinforcing rights with the U.S. and global goals. Yotsna, thank you so much for joining us. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, Josh, for having me here. Can you share with us a bit what inspires you to participate in the UN Sustainable Development Goals and, more importantly, really looking at the importance of an international order that's rooted in solidarity and sustainability for all? Yeah, of course. Cesar belonged to one of the countries of the global south, and it's very important for us to ensure the voices of the people that is heard at the global level, because the UNHLPF is organized in New York, and for half of the people in global south, it's kind of a dream to travel to New York and forget something or keep representing the voices, but it's such a tough task. So that's one thing, but definitely we feel that the HLPF has lots of people, especially if you look at the United Nations, they are a majority of people from the global north. And there are, I mean, I had been kind of following HLPF past eight years since 2016, and we have seen that how it has evolved over the time. So we feel that it's very important for us to be here in New York and kind of represent the voices, because we speak a lot during our sessions here right here in our region, the region that I belong to, that's South Asia. And then we also have some regional mechanism at the Asia Pacific level. But it's very sad to see that even the summary of the chair, even from the Asia Pacific region versus regional mechanism or regional, from the Asia Pacific region, hardly reaches HLPF. So even from that point of view, it gets very important for us to ensure what, how we have worked hard to ensure that the voices of the people from the remotest region, remotest places in our region are heard, especially the voices of the marginalized, vulnerable, indigenous people, LGBTI, we have lots of issues, we have issues of infrastructure development just to start off. We cannot even imagine competing with Hawaii or any other, you know, even some of the northern countries, which we call northern, but of the global south like Singapore and Japan, we are quite far behind. So I think it's very important for, at least for us to not only share our concerns, because we are also one of those worst regions, especially South and Southeast Asia, in terms of shrinking civic space. So governments are doing all their best to curb the freedom of expression association. So looking at all those things, I thought that, you know, UNHLPF or Sustainable Development Goal is a very important tool, actually, or an event where we can speak freely. And SDGs, especially where, you know, where the, all the SDGs are right-based. But if we talk strictly in terms of right-based, the governments might be having a problem, but the SDGs have been signed by 193 countries. So, you know, they are committed to certain things. So if we use the language of SDGs, I think that makes it easier to express our concerns and also we can be accountable and the governments could be accountable to what they have committed. So that's the reason we thought that why not using this path instead of just keep telling that, you know, what you're supposed to do. Although we have not reached a long way, because this is the eighth year of SDGs implementation and there's hardly any VNR Voluntary National Review that talks about shrinking civic space. So we have to go a long way, but still at least we are talking the SDGs language for the governments to understand our concerns. Oh, it's really important that sustainable development goals reinforce the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which we know is celebrating its 75th anniversary. But as you said, it's just another chance to be able to speak truth to power and be able to share two things. What questions we want to be posed to these governments, but also what recommendations we have to actually actualize the UN 2030 agenda in our homelands and at that level. Can you share a bit? I know you participate in the entire process. How does this all begin? We know countries say I volunteer and I will do my review. And then there's a regional meeting in Bangkok where we begin to start connecting people. And really, like you said, challenge the shrinking civil society space and make sure that the civil society begins to coordinate together and learn from one another. And then we all meet in New York in July at the UN headquarters. Can you walk us through a bit how you assist people to be able to make sure that their voice is heard there at that highest level under the Economic and Social Council there on the global goals? Yeah, thank you so much for this because it not only starts with the regional deliberation but at the sub regional levels. So there are sub regional deliberation from at South-South-West Asia, Southeast Asia, Central Asia and Northeast Asia and then Pacific. So there are five sub regional forum that takes place every year. Usually, they start from the end of the September until October, November, like that. But this year because of the SDG summit that comes every four years, we call it, you know, this is one of sort of ritual. In Hindi, there is a term called Kumbh Mela. Kumbh is a very, very big festival that happens every 12 years. So everybody from people, from all walks, they go unattended. But this SDG summit is no less than that. You know, so because of this SDG summit this year, they are going to delay the process of sub regional forum. Usually, when that starts from September, it might start from the end of October but it will go until November or maybe early December. And so it's a very good process actually because I do remember I didn't, there was no sub regional forum in 2016 and 17 if I remember well, excuse me for my memory because there's a loss of deliberation. But I think it started in 2018 and it was a good thing because we ensured that the people from sub regional participate directly in the UN process. So we have for South, South West Asia, the UN office is right here in New Delhi. So we negotiate with them and then, you know, it used to be a good, good meeting actually where we had lots of civil society people apart from the UN and the government and delegation. And then we would incorporate the feedback from each sub regional forum into the regional forum that happens in Bangkok, usually in the end of May, sorry, in the end of the March. And then they, these all are deliberation are fair. And so we ensure that from all the regions of South of Asia and Pacific are participating in this process. So even the people who cannot participate even in Bangkok, they are participating in the sub regional forum. And then sub and then same with the regional forum. And then the outcomes that leads to the high level political forum. So this is the whole process where we ensure. However, again, we have seen a lot of changes in which is, which is actually negative changes. Because, you know, the sub regional forums, as I said, that it used to be a very, very good platform for the civil society to to voice their opinion. We used to have a one day civil society meet, which is also happening now. But post COVID, there has been lots of change. And governments also use that digital divide for in their own favor. And so we see that the governments and the United Nations, they work together. And the UN, I mean, we know that the UN only, I don't want to sound pessimistic, but they also voice the concerns of the countries that give them more money. So that's one thing. And so we have started seeing that during the sub regional forum, a process of negotiation began between the civil society and the United Nations, the sub regional offices, which is really sad, because they would say that we cannot, we cannot sponsor more than two or three or four civil society. Can you imagine, suppose there are eight countries in South Asia, and five more from the West Asia, and you have, you are inviting just two or three civil society. On the other hand, you are inviting all the member states, all the 11 or 12 or 15 member states, but so isn't it a tokenistic representation? And this had this was so much done that last year in 2022, when the South South West Asia, the sub regional forum was organized in Pakistan. We started telling them that, no, you have to increase the number of civil society, but they would not listen to us. And we were the first sub region in Asia Pacific, who boycotted the entire sub regional forum. We did not participate, even the civil society were based in Pakistan, they did not participate. We thought, but we did not think both ways that the government would learn, but it's highly unlikely, it's okay for them. And then the sub region, and then we also met the executive secretary of UNS cap, Amida, and we told her the concern. She said, yeah, I'm aware that, you know, people are not able to participate because of certain concerns. And now they've started saying that we also have the issues of funding, we are funding restrictions. So basically they are asking the civil society to fundraise with them. Can you imagine United Nation and any civil society organization or the civil society mechanism, regional mechanism, is there any comparison? But there is no clarity how this alleged fundraise would take place. Who gets what share? You know, who has what say in inviting the participants, but they have been telling this past two years that let's fundraise together. But then I really wonder where the, because when they are inviting lots of member states or all the member states, why they don't talk about these financial restrictions. But anyway, that's one thing, but definitely we are into it. There are other regions like Northeast Asia and they are again, Northeast Asia are the north of the global south. So they have obviously better, they are better resource than the south and southeast Asia. So they have better, you know, way of doing it. They are more civil society participating in the sub regional forum. Regardless, we ensure that even if we are not participating, our voices are heard in terms of civil society statement because we organize our civil society forum, even virtually, and then we make sure that our statements are recorded. So definitely there are the, these are the processes, the sub regional, the regional and the high level. And there are very few people actually who could make it, who make, who are able to make from the sub regional or the national to the high level. But we ensure, but still we ensure that we in our countries which are participating, they get the, they get to come. But again, UN has its own problems. They have their own system, so-called system, where they invite the people just two days before this, their presentation. And most of the cases that civil society are not able to make to New York. So ultimately, some of us who are already there is their responsibility actually to read the statement and make our cases stronger. Yeah. I appreciate that full overview, especially of the sub regional that happens in the fall because countries usually announce they'll be reviewed for you sharing with us this sub regional. That's absolutely crucial. Then the regional that takes place usually in March, April, and then of course July is the high level political form. As you said, it's almost like a fish swimming upstream. And those rare fish are the ones that are able to participate and to actually construct that social and international order because it's we civil society that almost makes all this possible, especially with the work that you do. Could you share a bit how you actualize these articles, especially article 28 and what actions you're involved with to promote and protect human rights around the HLPF? Can you share what you do there? But then also, I know you're involved around G20 and other mechanisms. So any way that's possible for civil society to share their perspectives and make sure that the world represents what we the people want. So as a civil society participant, as the person, someone who has been part of this process for very long, I think it's very important for all of us to ensure that the people who are sharing their concerns, who want their voices to be heard, but still their rights, their privacy is protected. I think this is something very important we have seen in many countries, especially from the Southeast Asia, where we work because as a part of the VNR task group, MGUS task group, is a job to work with various civil society to get involved in the country-level process with the civil society and also ensure that they have a very strong statement. At least what they want to talk about the country, what they want to share to this government in the UN. So these are some of those critical things that we do it. And so in some of the cases, the civil society, they say that, sorry, even if they are in the high-level political forum in New York, they are still very hesitant in reading the statement because their governments are there right there. So some of us, maybe one of us, would just go and read it on their behalf, saying that we are reading this statement on behalf of the civil society. We did in the case of Laos, in the past, Singapore, and two more less. The cases could be different. In some cases, they are hesitant, they are scared, or they could be, you know, intimidated, actually. But this happened also this year, and Joshua, you know this. So you had to read the Singapore statement, and which was very, very tough. It talked only about the human rights, and they heard you. But we heard that. And then after that, someone from the state representation came up to you and to me, and asked who wrote it, the name of the people involved. We tried to give this an answer because all the information are right there at the UN, there's a website. But they wanted to know, and ultimately, they complained to the UNDSA that it didn't talk about the STGs. They talked more about the human rights. The lots of things the governments have done, but then the civil society was very critical. But if I look from their point of view, I mean, from the point of view of the civil society, they do not have any platform where they can be heard, not even the national or the regional platform. So I think they, when I asked them, can you change your statement a bit? And they said, you know, governments have all the good things to talk about. But who will talk about the human rights issues? Who will talk about the execution that takes place in the country? Nobody's there to talk about them. Nobody's there to talk about the issues of poverty, inequality, or LGBTI, for example. So there are lots of things that the civil society feel that they need to talk about it. Maybe they are not using the language of STGs, but still they need to be heard. And here we also play a role that we ensure that in whatever happens, we read it for, and at least the state government, they hear it. Even if they complain to the UNDSA, that means they've heard it, right? So we have some success. So let's think positively. And so definitely these are there, these cases are there. Regarding the G20, yes, we have, again, I've been involved in the process since 2012, when there was no C20, there was no civil society, there were no civil 20 in Mexico, but in the civil 20 started in from right from St. Petersburg, Russia in 2013. And the civil 20 is actually one of those official engagement groups of G20, which we have been demanding. We have been demanding an independent state within an independent space within the G20, and which we got in 2013. But G20 is, again, but we see that it has become a very, very much country-led process, since it does not have any permanent secretariat. So it keeps moving. And we have seen how it moved from Japan to Saudi Arabia to Italy in the last five years to Italy. And then it came to Indonesia, and then it came to India now. And now it will go to Brazil next year. So what we say, as I say, it's a very, very much country-led process. But still, again, we cannot leave the space. There are people who think that even if they're not listening to us, let's leave the space, let's pay something. But many of us who really work very hard, who fought for the space of the civil society as an official engagement group in the G20, I think it's not easy. It's not wise to leave the place at the same time, also supporting the people who are not engaging officially. But we have seen some of the very tough states like Saudi Arabia, which has a severe human rights violation issues. But still, we managed to go there, some of us, and we managed to raise concerns, although not strongly. But we still see that G20 is a very, very important space where we, and fortunately, in the Indian civil G20, we managed to have a working group on SDG16+, and promoting civic space, which we really did not think because there has been so much talks about that government of India or nobody would allow us, but actually we did it. And today is again, one sort of historic day, I would say that after all those fights that I'm doing, I'm fighting within the G20 here, they finally accepted our policy, but the way it was without making any change, because we said we do not want to compromise on this, and they did it. So, and we said that if you do not listen, then you're not adhering to the principle of G20. And so it's, you know, again, I see there are marginal success, there are people who believe in the system, and it would be a good thing that some of the policy briefs, I mean, there are some working groups like SDG16+, their working group on disability, which is the first time in the G20, an independent disability group was established in Indian civil G20. So again, this is a great success for the civil society actually. So it's not about the, I mean, government, they recognize us, they recognize that, yes, the disability exists, they do not always need to be tied with the gender, they are independent one. The civil, the issues of promoting civic space, issues of corruption, which no government want to talk about, you know, we have highlighted even those things. So I think these are some of the success and we are trying to link the SDGs and the G20 process. That's what we have been trying to do past few years, especially also we did in Indonesia, where we had a good working group on humanitarian and SDGs. But these are two very, very big topics. So this year, we thought that why don't we do something in the SDG16, which talks about the issues of the freedom of expression association, and especially the right to participate. I think these are some of the very important issues of corruption, transparency, accountability. So these are all there and we are trying to tell them what we expect the G20 countries to kind of help and intervene in the SDGs of Agenda 2030. How do we want to create some SDG fund, you know, where we can ensure the voices of communities are heard. They are getting some fund so that they can come to the summit and they can express their voices. Things are happening, moving at a very, very, very, very slow pace, but things are happening. I am positive, but not very much, but at least I would say that yeah, we managed to do something, you know. Oh, and it really brings up some really good points because you connect the fear of reprisals, but that we can't be frozen in fear that we must face what matters most and stand together in solidarity, and how we did weave in SDG16 for sure, but also SDG beyond peace, justice, and strong institutions tackling corruption, so crucial, but then also reducing inequalities and gender justice and pulling all those together because that really reinforces what the UDHR calls for with that coalition of conscience sent around trust and transformation while honoring those values, vision, and voice. And I think if we look at what's important, we can see now the UN High-Level Political Format set annual gathering of NGOs from around the world to influence international institution of the UN and make an impact of the global goals on the ground, but as you shared, we have to take advantage of any global process to make sure that the social and international order reflects those values of the UN Charter of We the Peoples and make sure it looks like what we desire. Yes, absolutely. And if on a final couple notes, can you share with us some of the major heroes, heroes, or human rights NGOs you think are doing great work in our region or around the world, and then we'll conclude briefly on your vision for the future of rights. You know, there are no dearth of heroes as heroes and in good organization, but I'm like really very concerned about their privacy, their security, because there are very, very, very good organizations in all the countries actually, I would say, especially in the, especially also coming from the Central Asia. You know, Central Asia is a very, very close state, and so there are many, I can only say, I'm not sure if I should name them, but it might impact them, their security or some of their concerns, because the conditions are not good in our region, especially South and Southeast Asia. I would have loved to give their names, maybe sometimes I will write to you, but there are a lot and I tell you, we would not be able to do anything without their help. As I said, that when we do the civil society statement, some of them are very, very strong statements. We do only because of them, but we ensure that their names, their pictures are nowhere. So they are definitely there, Joshua, but that's my concern, but there is no dearth. I mean, because of those heroes and heroes, we are able to, we are managed, we managed to bring their voices to the high-level political forum. Yeah. That's wonderful. And we know the UDHR Article 28 demands, rights and freedoms are reflected in a social and international order that's echoed in the UN 2030 agenda and the Paris Agreement, and the UNHLPF unites humanity around volunteering national reviews, measuring dozens of states for sustainable development goals. In conclusion, what do you see is the future of, especially as we're at halftime, and we're at halftime and maybe this scores not exactly what we want, but we always know that we could win in the second half, and that's when most games are decided. What do you see is the future for human rights and the sustainable development goals? I wish the last interest of yours, which was true that the second half could be, maybe there was somehow we could bounce back. That would be an amazing thing, but as you know that we are backsliding, the Asia Pacific region is badly backsliding. The goal 13 is negatively actually going. 16 is stagnant or regressing slowly. But the worst thing is goal 13, which is not a good thing. And all this we can say on the basis of the variability of about 45 to 50% of the data that we are backsliding. If we had even 80%, it would be more and more far away a dream to even achieve this. So according to the data that we have, the Asia Pacific region will not achieve a sustainable development goal until 2065. If you talk about gender goals, 200 years. So these are very, very frustrating things. But as I said, there are some small, small, small things. I was listening to a VNR country this year and they were telling us how in 2018 they had a woman participation of one woman participated. But next year it would be two women participated. We wanted to believe them okay from 1 to 2 to 3. But when the 50% comes, 50% women participated is going to happen. In this birth of us, I'm not even talking about 265 or 3000. I'm just saying that the way states are moving, they are simply disconnected with the reality of the people. And this is such a sad thing because come on, we are facing climate crisis. It's happening now. But why the governments are not trying to listen? When we die, the nature would not see the political party heads or the big people. They are not drowning. Everybody would be drowned to death. So I think our job as a civil society would be to keep voicing. And that's what we are not going back. We are not stepping back. We are there. We are going to go ahead. We are going to tell them even if they don't like, we are going to tell them. And there are lots of people's voices. There are good cases studies also which could be replicated to other region. So there are lots of things which is happening at the local level. I would not say localizing of SDGs because it looks like definitely SDGs are at the top level. And those SDGs are being tried to be localized. I would not say. I would rather say listen to the voices of indigenous people. They have lots of knowledge, experience, expertise and wisdom. You don't need to go anywhere else if you listen to them. That's my last thing that I would want to request the people and the government and the member states. Thank you so much. And that's true as we're about being brave and bold. It's definitely indigenous peoples. But it also provides a blueprint for a better world for all. One that's looking at what you described SDG 13 of climate action but also climate justice. And if we look at indigenous, if we keep indigenous lands and indigenous hands, we'd be able to reach all 17 global goals on the ground. Thank you so much for joining and thank you for all the work that you do at the high level political forum at the G20C20 and other international institutions to actualize Article 28. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please click the like and subscribe button on YouTube. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. Check out our website, thinktechawaii.com. Mahalo.