 Our next pair might share an interest in engaging the public, but from the perspective of their different domains of history, science, and art. Jen Eleven is director of science at Pioneer Works in Brooklyn, and also associate professor of physics and astronomy here at Barnard, right across the street. And Tweetay Howe is general manager of Mahookey in Wellington, New Zealand. And I believe, Jenna, you're going to go first. Thank you. Thank you. One of the things I imagined when I became a university professor was having all of this incredible crossover between disciplines. And it's not a reality, sadly. It's actually very hard to connect outside of your own floor of a building, let alone your department. So I'm in physics and in astronomy. I float around. But I love the idea that I've been invited to speak in the architecture. The architecture department only took me 10 years to get an invite. But I'm glad to be here. I'm not on 120th Street since most of my life takes place on 120th Street right by Pupin. I'm out here in Red Hook in Brooklyn. I don't know. I have people visited Pioneer Works. I'm just curious. Pioneer Works is a cultural center. We really struggle to define it. We meet all the time to discuss our mission statement. And lately I've been trying mission statements that rely on ecclesiastic metaphors like the church. And then I later intend on taking out like the specific words and replacing them with something else. It feels like more than a community center is a place where we break bread, where we discuss ideas, where we make art, where we listen to music and sometimes just chill out in the garden. This is an image of the main hall. It's three stories high. Pioneer Works was an old ironworks factory. It looked like this when Dustin Yellen, the founding of the artist who bought it, founder of Pioneer Works, when he first started working on it with Gabriel Florence, who's the founding artistic director. It was from the 1800s, mid-1800s. It was used as an ironworks factory to build railroads primarily. And even though it's right on the water of Red Hook, it didn't have to do with shipping for reasons that I'm not sure I fully understand. So it was hit by Sandy, actually, midway through the renovation. And so that set them back a year. But if you're wondering how long or how old Pioneer Works is, that's about how old it is since Sandy, a year after that. It opened its doors. And Dustin, it's a very organic process. There was definitely cart before the horse is how we do everything there. It was not a hard open. We did not finish the building. It was opened to artists when it could be. It was open for gallery spaces when it could be. And we've just been kind of working to piece it together. This is, on the side flank of the space you saw before, the catwalks that house the artists' studios. So the artists are now by nomination. They come in for three months to six months, very rarely longer. And they now have their own spaces. Those used to be just kind of open spaces. And again, we've only just started to finish enclosing the artist's spaces. A fair fraction of the building still doesn't have heat or AC, which can be quite extraordinary in New York swings of weather. Again, this is the main hall. Walls come and go like it's nothing. There's this real plasticity to the space. Right now we're preparing for the Haiti exhibit, which opens tonight, Poteau Ponce, which was curated by Gabriel Florence. And it's a group show of Haitian artists. I think it's really the only show of its kind that I know of. And so this whole space is completely transformed. New walls, new rooms, dark rooms, video rooms, big exhibition spaces. One of my favorite things to do there is to look out onto the gallery and see, watch things come and go. These are the science studios. So when we first started building the science studios on the third floor, it was only about a year and a half ago that we finished the science studios. So I came in as the founding director of sciences there, and this huge space on the third floor had still not been finished. We had plywood stapled down the floors. There was no heating, no AC. We didn't have a lot of electrical, but it was this 3,500 square foot gloria space. This is it just after we finished. A couple people gave us a couple items of furniture. It was very sparse, but you can see some of the original architectural elements of the triangle here and some of the beams on the ceiling, but the rest was replaced, the floors. This is the, these are the windows that look out onto the gallery space. So we have this extraordinary view of the river, the garden, Manhattan, the Brooklyn bridges, and the gallery space. So that's on the third floor. So we started sciences there with kind of different aims. One was very public facing. What can we do in terms of engagement for the community and an external audience? And the other was very much internal ambition, and that's where we're growing in some sense the slowest, which is how do we bring artists in, I'm sorry, scientists Freudian in residence, two pioneers to actually work on science. We're very much not about sci art. We are not about bringing scientists to become mediocre artists, you know, and explore there. They're like, you revive their youth. It's really scientists come and do science. We have glassboards where they write their equations. We work on biology. We work on astrophysics, work on black holes. Scientific controversies is, sorry, let's see if I can get that going. Oh, I guess not. I don't know. It doesn't like that slide. Scientific controversies is one of our signature public facing series. I actually started it on a whim before I was director of sciences when I was a friend of the space. They asked me to come give a talk on black holes, on astrophysics, and I had just been through a book tour, and I just thought to myself, like, I cannot stand to hear myself speak. And so I thought, you know, it would be a lot more fun if I have two guests on stage. It was just a fully formed idea. I've done so many events. I've done so many talks. I just knew I wanted two guests on stage, completely extemporaneous conversation, both scientists. It wasn't a debate. I didn't want anyone to try to win. I wanted there to be a sense of exploring unsolved problems, like how we really do it when we're sitting over coffee and we're talking about things we don't know the answer to. And sometimes you stop and you say, whoa, you're right. You know, you change, you shift your opinion. Other times you say crazy stuff you're not sure is true. And I wanted to get the scientists to the point of being able to do that on stage. And so that started scientific controversies. The first event, this is Black Holes, which was recently we did in July. Over 1,000 people showed up. I have no idea why we have the attendance we have. I really don't. But it's, I really don't, it's staggering, but you can see it's pretty packed there. There's a lot of collaborative dimensions, even to the events. I have an artist friend who makes SCICON-limited edition patches, which have become kind of like a collector's thing. We have a DJ artist, Ezekiel Way Muhammad, who opens most of our shows with visuals and music. We have photographers who take tin-type portraits of the scientists who come through. So we have a photography series. So it becomes this really multi-dimensional experience. The first event we did, this is just showing some others. This is Nick Lane and Caleb Scharf, who's actually here at Columbia, on the question of are we alone? And you can see how packed it is. This was Dark Matter. Elena Priele is actually also a Columbia physicist. I draw on my people. That's Peter Fisher, who is the head of MIT's physics department. So we get some very big people. George Church, who is an absolute genius of genetics from Harvard. What was the question we did there? Genetic manipulation. And there's also Siddhartha Mukherjee, who won the Pulitzer Prize for his book, The Emperor of All Malities. So the guests we're getting, again, we can't really exactly explain, but they come, they have a great time. And the events are really quite packed. This is Feng Zhang, another geneticist from MIT. And you see one of the things that I think is really interesting about our audience is that they feel that our guests are coming to their house. I'm not sure how else to explain it. That instead of, you know, having a ticket, going to symphony space, not to knock symphony space, and going home is a very different experience than walking into some place where you're going to spend three hours drinking, listening to music, hanging out in the garden, and then meeting the guests who spoke, like, on the ground. And there's a real interaction. And our guests have been very generous about doing that. So PsychonCon have created our first signature public-facing program. But we also do conversations. This is Richard Dawkins talking about the tyranny of socks. He doesn't believe that socks should come in pairs. He thinks you should just get, like, a bag of socks. And so he reaches into his drawer every day. And if he gets a matching pair, he wears matching socks. If he doesn't, I have a pretty good picture of he and I toe to toe with, I'm wearing torn tights and he's wearing mismatched socks. The reason why Richard is in conversation, so these are things, you know, curatorially we think about a lot, as opposed to just dominating the stage, because Lord knows Richard Dawkins can hold a stage, is because I feel like very famous people start to repeat themselves. And one of the things about forcing him to be in conversation was to force him to say things that were different than what he always says. And it's one of our most widely viewed videos that we've ever posted. There's Lawrence Krauss talking on stage with members of the audience. And again, there's this real casualness and comfort. When Dawkins came, people were, like, shouting to him, like, hey, Richard, how you feeling? I mean, it's just a really different atmosphere. Ray Weiss, who's a very dear friend won the Nobel Prize last season, last October, he came to speak in a conversation about five days after he won the Nobel. So I did not schedule that accidentally. That was extremely intentional. I was 90% sure he was going to get the Nobel Prize. Werner Herzog has come to screen in our small science studios. We did a very small screening of one of his films and kind of has become a very close friend of the space now. So the egregious name dropping is just to indicate that despite the fact that we're remote, it's really hard to get to Red Hook, that we're kind of rough around the edges. We make production mistakes. You know, we're not very polished. We don't have 10 producers on every event. That there's something about the process and the vibrancy of the process that people have been willing to play, basically. Our author series, we feature a lot of authors. I'm going to go kind of quickly into the background, but Leland Melvin, you know, he only put authors on stage who can absolutely dominate the stage. And this guy totally dominated the stage. We try to think with our events, how do we also reach out to the community. So we donated 150 of the Young Readers edition of Leland's book, which is very inspirational about how he became an astronaut and actually made it to space, despite very severe obstacles. We gave those to some of the local schools. We have to admit we are part of a wave in this neighborhood, which has been quite isolated. And it's confusing for us too. We're trying to do the best we can, but a lot of those kids came, and it was really beautiful. It was the first time that they came to Pioneerx and they got their book signed by Leland. And so that was really wonderful. So this is just to show our engagement. Finally, I want to say we always have astronomy in the garden. This is, again, kind of our naivete. Like, we don't always know what's going to be successful here. So I, being affiliated here as a professor here, one of the astronomers donated a couple of the telescopes to me, and I stuck them in the garden thinking, you know, no big deal, have a couple of telescopes. If we don't have the telescopes out, people get irate. It doesn't matter if it's like cloud cover raining. I try to explain you can't see anything. We didn't drag them down the three flights of stairs, but they go crazy. So we decided on the eclipse, which was August 21st. It was just last year. I'm kind of losing my perspective on time. To open up the garden for viewing of the partial eclipse, I figured it wouldn't really be a huge event. Again, we're very remote who's going to come out. I had like 150 solar viewing glasses. The garden was going to open at one because that's when transit of this eclipse started. It was total eclipse in parts of the world, but partial here. We had 4,000 people descend on the space. We had no idea. I got a call from Gabriel at 9 in the morning saying the line has started. What is going on? So the line wrapped around the entire block of pioneer works and doubled. It got to the point where we absolutely could not accommodate people. We started bringing scopes out onto the street. And so now we have this reciprocity with the Amateur Astronomers Association of New York, and they bring telescopes down to almost all of our events. So after, you know, you've had your head blown by like David Gross or the Nobel Prize winner, you know, David Baltimore, you can go sit in the garden and look at Saturn. It's kind of calming. Okay. And then finally, second Sundays is the entire building. We'll have it this Sunday if you happen to be free from 4 till 10. The entire building is activated and we've started to do more things in the science studios. So these are Barnard students guiding people on how to genetically modify bacteria so they fluoresce. We do super geeky things like that. Somebody said I was in the longest beer line and when I finally got to the front, I found out it was a genetics experiment. So we get these crowds for this. In the Airstream here, which we have in our garden, we do things like VR. This is Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson. She's a marine biologist who works with me in the science studios and she set up this really beautiful VR of the oceans. So I don't know what's the punchline. The punchline is we have an event also next Thursday. It'll be our 16th scientific controversies event on Swarm Intelligence. We're going to talk about bees, ants, robots, AI, humanity, you know, the easy stuff. And I hope to see people down there. And I think, you know, what I'm really looking forward to talking to my partner in crime tonight about is why these things work because I really, I would love to understand it myself. Thank you. Kia ora and warm greetings from New Zealand, everyone. I'm Tui and, as they said, I've come all the way from New Zealand to be here today. Thank you so much for having me. So today what I'm going to talk about is our approach and some, a little taster of the philosophy that underpins the National Museum of New Zealand's Business Accelerator and Innovation Program, Mahuki. So Mahuki is an indigenous or Māori word. It means perception, to see beyond the usual, to see what others can't see. And it was, and that's a really great fitting concept for entrepreneurs and innovators who do need to see beyond. And it was beyond the usual for Te Papa, which is the name of our museum, to set up a business accelerator, and in doing so to embrace quite a commercial structure where we take equity in promising that come through that program in exchange for the seed funding and the delivery of the program. So going into our third year of operation now, we've constantly evolved our model, like Rick talked about, to ensure that Mahuki continues to deliver value back to the teams that participate, but also back to our parent organisation. Also to the sector, to Papa, as the National Museum is mandated in our act to provide leadership to the wider culture and heritage sector in New Zealand, and also back to taxpayers as we receive government funding. So Mahuki was originally set up to provide commercial and innovation leadership to the culture and heritage sector. And there was an informal goal that we had that we were going to help make to Papa famous for digital in the world. In New Zealand, we're a long way from all of our export markets. It was 26 hours on the plane to get here, and we have this, we can do anything kind of mentality, and sometimes because we don't know any better. And that's a massive plus, actually. And we have, I guess, a high degree of optimism. And Mahuki is focused on two key areas. So the first is experience solutions. So we're interested in the ways and we call for ideas from teams to participate in our programs in which technology can help us tell our nation's stories in new and exciting ways. And also that can be shared beyond the physical walls of the museum. Innovation that will help us grow and retain our audiences. So one of the things about culture institutions is the way that we measure ourselves or benchmark ourselves is actually audience numbers. So the number of people that come through the door. It's a rude, rudimentary measure, but it is one that is the one that we often go back to. So we're interested in all the realities, audio, holograms, we've had interactive portraits, gamification, and so on. Secondly though, we're interested in enterprise solutions. And that sometimes surprises people. So cultural institutions are complex businesses that beyond their core mission encompass a range of commercial activities. Ticketing, insights and analytics, collection management, catering, retail, event management, collection digitisation, and so on. These revenue generation activities are absolutely critical to our day-to-day operational funding and survival, let alone trying to get any other money and to do anything new and fantastic. So we call for ideas from the teams that will help us run our business more efficiently or help us make more money. But we are also interested in supporting ideas that are about making the world a better place. So we've called this Gaia, or the Earth Mother, or in Māori, the indigenous language, she would be called Papatūinuku. It's an image from our photography collection and she sits in a world besieged by climate change, pollution and so on. So Mahuki is interested in those ideas that will do good, good for the planet, good for communities, and good for culture. Just as an aside, I've got some postcards at the top there of some of these images if you'd like them and there are little Easter eggs in them for those of you that are up for finding them. As the National Museum, though, we're not just interested in the what we do, we are also really interested in the who, just as the others have spoken about. So ensuring that the teams that we work with reflect the diversity of society, but also honour the bicultural foundations that New Zealand is built on and that our museum takes very, very seriously. So, and I'm just aware I'm going to say these figures and they don't sound the scale of things in New Zealand. It's quite different to here, but over the three years that we've been operating, we've grown our female participation from 22 to 40%. Māori and Pasifika, which are the two largest, I guess, people of colour groups, from 20 to 40%, and then other ethnicities, we've also grown to around 20%. So I realise that doesn't add up, but that's across the different years. So I guess in an ethnically diverse city like New York, maybe that doesn't seem so special, but what's special about it back home in New Zealand is that we are a mainstream programme. So a way in which our country, it tends to address those different ethnic groups is to set up specific programmes for them. We're not a specifically targeted programme, we're a mainstream programme, and us being able to achieve those kind of results in our programme has actually really influenced our government agency to start demanding similar results from our colleagues. So one of the challenges for New Zealand is our population size, so around four million. And there was a concern, and actually it's founded that New Zealand, we have way more initiatives and programmes than we do have entrepreneurs and innovators to actually fill them all up. Because when we get on to something, we really go for it. But my response to that is that I think that we've only just begun to scratch the surface and unleash the potential of some of those demographic groups. And that's why we have developed a few seed programmes. The first of which is, we call it magnitude seven. So it's our seed programme to kind of plant these ideas of entrepreneurship, mainly in those marginalised communities or audiences that aren't participating. And to build a sales pipeline that will go on to participate in our business accelerator. It was also positioning that we settled upon for those sort of Indigenous groups to be revealing how their own rich heritage and connection to their culture is an asset in a commercial context. And here's just a couple of... We always do the obligatory programme photograph on our stairwell. This one was pretty special. This is one that we ran in partnership. Oh, gosh, I better hurry, I've got two minutes. So it was very special. At the bequest of one of our partners, the Pacific Business Trust, we developed a new programme, we call it Royata. Royata is also a Māori word for the Milky Way. And so this programme is for product-based businesses where we help build their capability, but we also inspire them by connecting them with their culture, with the national collection, and then we connect them with our retail. And this is just a picture of some of the people that have participated. So in some cases, the work that we've done in those seed programmes has been life-changing. It has been about supporting the creation of sustainable businesses, or it's about an individual that's gone on to secure high-value employment. And we measure all of those. But what I'd like to keep in mind alongside pursuing these social and cultural objectives is that we always bring it back to maintain our commercial rationale. Te Papa hopes for a commercial return on our initiatives and the investment that we've made on some of the teams. Te Papa also really values the community engagement aspect. But the commercial focus has helped us really focus our activities towards tangible outcomes and fast-failing ideas that are not commercially sustainable. So one of the key ways that we measure our success commercially is what we call deployment. So the number of commercial agreements, pilots or proof of concepts that our teams secure with customers in the first case in the cultural and heritage sector. So this is starting to ramp up for us. This is just an example. That's actually our Prime Minister in the red dress there. And if you didn't know, our Prime Minister is 37. She's just had a baby. And so in some cases we're sitting at about 25 deployments of so far from the teams that ranges from major exhibitions to software licensing and so on. So the reason I'm sharing this with you is that if Mahuki had only ever been a program to make cool technology stuff, I think ultimately we would be facing challenges to our long-term survivability because there are a lot of ways to bring cool innovation or to make cool stuff in an organisation when we could buy it. And especially something like an innovation lab can be a luxury when the core museum business feels underfunded. So this is a dilemma faced by lots of organisations not just in the cultural and heritage sector but how do you do core business, current business, but then also be innovating for the future. So it's something that we've had to really evolve our value along the way to make sure that we keep delivering that value back to Te Papa. So to kind of try to wrap it up into a couple of moments of truth I guess what has guided us along our journey is to focus on what produces value and to do this all the time to be constantly assessing that to stay agile and lean so that we're able to take up opportunities. And then also that the future in our mind is about the interplay between social, cultural and commercial. Those three things add a layer of complexity but it's enabled us to straddle different worlds and deliver broader impact and value back to New Zealand. So I just wanted to end with a little something outside the box so maybe one of the underpinning philosophies that we use in our work and it's an indigenous leadership framework called Wayfinding. When my ancestors first travelled to New Zealand they did so by drawing on a range of frameworks and reference points and they travelled very long distances their understanding of star navigation the migration patterns of birds the way in which clouds and water patterns changed as they passed landforms they relied on about right estimation it wasn't about dead reckoning about mostly heading in the right direction most of all they drew on their faith and belief that there was beautiful land to be found at the bottom of the earth in one of the most distant places. Sometimes the way it's talked about is that in a sense they were calling the island to them akin to the way that we might travel in a train where actually the world is moving but feels like we're standing still. So what is required for us to thrive in a fast paced and hugely dynamic future coming towards us drawing from lots of different places and thinking alongside traditional Western frameworks that value precision measurement and certainty all of those frameworks are important for the future but actually we think that the frameworks and that's what we're trying to build into our programs drawing from all of those is important because in our view the future is crazy and just when you think you've got it sorted it goes and changes on you and this framework certainly from an indigenous point of view also references back to storytelling some museum and cultural institutions are vessels for stories communities are connected by our stories and stories are the energy for innovation so in our work we aim to reveal each individual's special story how their unique cultural story is a major asset and how they have a valuable contribution to make in this world so let your story shine bright do good in the world and be prosperous. I was thinking how given in architecture school how has the physical environment of pioneer works shaped the way that you deliver your program or the way that you've evolved I think it's a great question I think the physicality of the space is actually crucial there is something you know I made this kind of mocking reference to ecclesiastic but there is something of the magnificence of the building when you walk in that is so moving and the flexibility of the space the fact that the entire space is transparent even the science studios there is not one room that's completely blocked out there are glass walls partial walls to every room in the space sometimes that can be a little annoying if you want to take a nap or something but there is a sense of always being able to see everybody else and I think it has consequences that are hard to assess but that's also the garden being it's a 20,000 square foot garden that's actually on an old parking lot that was just filled with rubble and dirt and now it has a willow tree that's enormous it contributes to something about the welcoming and inspirational aspect of the space and your space I'm not sure if I had a complete sense of physicality the unique thing about our space is that it's co-located with the National Museum so we are what's called back of house so it means we're hidden away the public can see us because like a lot of startup spaces we have a bright pink neon sign or other spaces have neon but not necessarily pink and so but what's really magical about it is and I talk about the magic is that we can be talking about going to do some customer research and let them loose in the museum to actually go and observe ought to be inspired by the nation's treasures so that co-location alongside being co-located with the Tupapa staff is actually really amazing one thing I have for you it's kind of a question for one of the things that just blows me away about America is just just how many of you there are and even where you go people in 4,000 people just absolutely blows my mind so what does it take for US people to coexist don't you hear the swearing on the train it's not that easy every time I meet someone who I found out lives in my neighborhood but I never met before I always wonder did I jostle them on the one train did I curse them but there's a certain way in which I think we become invisible to each other here and yet I think we spot our sub-cultural associations it's much more likely that I will know somebody from this world than I would know somebody who lives in my building and it's a strange adaptation I think to try to cope with it at that level but we're also I think completely overtapped with demands for our attention because of the energy of the city and the number of things going on and you sometimes feel like you're competing with the entirety of New York City for I don't know what bodies time I'm not sure attendance and that can be quite exhausting so we're also thinking more about smaller scale events that are just really small and intimate just 50 people you know up in the science studios for small screening just not always everything so big is it the opposite problem for you that the diffusion of space between people is a challenge I mean New Zealand's physically big in comparison obviously to the population yeah there's a lot of space and and what does that create I think there's just a lot of really beautiful nature seeing Lord of the Rings it's absolutely like that so I think it's really interesting because something like Rick talked about the space actually in the Accelerator when we're trying to get the teams together we actually want density we want them close we want them a bit of jostling because that's sort of a little bit of tension actually really works but then as human beings when we're out of there we want clear space sorry and it might be an unfair question so one of the things it's really it goes back to something before I really loved how you talked about race and you talked about people of colour what about does people of colour cover indigenous people of America I'm not as a scientist I have very unusual attitudes towards race I mean clearly race is a very strong sociological concept very real very strong implications but scientifically it does not have a lot of basis and so I think I'm like the last person to ask we can tell genetically regions of the world but there really is not a well-defined genetic or scientific notion of race and I think it's getting blurrier and blurrier and that could be a wonderful thing or a terrible thing because obviously socially we think it's very clear and sort of absurdly false that it's clear what is clear is that we have certain attitudes baked into our structures but they're based on a false idea they're based on false concepts I don't know maybe afterwards other people would be able to speak to it more I mean for you the indigenous population is clearly very important in a lot of your work I see so many of the names being motivated by that and there is when I've been in New Zealand a really tremendous respect for the origins of the country and the indigenous population so I've been always start the book festivals with some kind of honouring of the original notions of the cosmology of New Zealand and the genesis of New Zealand and it seems like that's very important in your work in particular or is that sort of a general New Zealand attitude? Yeah look it's not everyone doesn't feel that way but definitely I think that New Zealand is I was just thinking when you said that actually what that provides for us is a country of shared ritual I don't know if you guys are into rugby and you see our sports team do the haka beforehand it's a way that we sort of all bond together but coming back I love what you said about race and the scientific basis for that and even as Māori indigenous people we are not all one people and we fight amongst each other all the time so sometimes what we say is even within those groups are you an ocean person or are you a mountain person are you a river person or a forest and then that's a really great way of getting all peoples to identify coming back to what they have two minutes left I wanted to should we open for questions what do you think people want to ask questions well salute to both of you for the way you guys handle a program of monument programming my question is along the lines what drives or missives do you guys use at Pioneer Works to determine the type of civic or community engagement surrounding your program and that community can be conceptual like the scientific community the physical community of Brooklyn cultural community Tui Tui mentioned how they use or storytelling and that was their aim to push their program forward but at Pioneer Works I know you have the scientific controversies but then along the lines you also have the Port-au-Prince exhibit surrounding Haiti what kind of missives do you guys use to handle your program the truth is because it's such a young space such a young concept it's been very personality driven this is the truth Gabriel was fascinated with Haiti and spent a lot of time hand picking those artists and it was his own personal passion to do that project there's no mandate from anybody there's no very little hierarchical character Dustin Yellen Gabriel and I all share one office in the science studios that's become like our headquarters so it's not as though we have a mandate or a mission for the sciences it's been very much driven by my own personal experience so one thing that you could worry about one thing that's good about that is you have a strong curator identity and program and very clear ideas everybody on the team might not understand why you're making the calls you're making but you know there is something thematically very powerful and it does build something identifiable one of the drawbacks is you don't have enough voices thrown in and so we are growing we now have a new community organizer who's helping us expand beyond what our sort of intuitions are and I've hired more scientists to think about how to engage in the community in different ways so part of it is strong curation and then also listening to other voices so that you don't kind of fall in on yourself Tui can you elaborate a little bit more on using storytelling how you guys go about that do you work with writers of so what types of writers screenwriters or anything like that how do you actually implement storytelling with everything else you have going on yeah so the museum itself works with lots of different storytellers and we have our own team of writers one of the things about writing is that we do have two national languages so it's always bi-cultural but I think coming back to what we mean by storytelling it's that so you know what will we be doing when the robots take over our jobs and we are driving in our driverless cars we'll probably be consuming more content more stories stories for us as the future but also stories for indigenous people well my indigenous peoples it's actually the way that we are an oral culture so that's the way that we communicated and shared where we'd come from and where we're going so the idea behind really focusing in on stories is that that is something that actually you intrinsically have inside you and it's valuable and honour it and then it's not just that it's valuable it's also commercially it could lead to something one of the things I get people to do is I'm new to the museum sector and people will bring out object items and I'll look at them and in my mind I'm going is that it it looks a bit tatty what have they done to it they kind of messed it up a bit and then they start talking about it and they talk about where it came from and what it meant to those people of that time I'm like oh my god you've had that experience beyond the object itself so it's actually I think for all human beings it's the story that we wrap around things is where all the gold is