 A light-skinned person with straight, light brown hair tucked into a black turtleneck. Good evening everyone, my name is Alexandra Cunningham Cameron and I'm the Curator of Contemporary Design and Hints Secretarial Scholar at Cooper Hewitt. I have had the honor of organizing the Willysmouth Street Couture Exhibition, Monograph and Digital Community Archive with a large and dedicated team at the museum, including Darnell Jamal-Lizby and Julie Pastor, as well as Willysmouth's family, friends and collaborators with principal support from Target. You're joining us today for Rebellion and Design, the second program in the Willysmouth series. The first collective memory storytelling and collaboration in the writing of history is available on the Cooper Hewitt YouTube channel. If you haven't seen it, I highly encourage you to track it down. My introduction to Willysmouth came through one of our speakers today, James Wines, who is a founding partner of Site Architects and together with Alice in Sky designed a series of showrooms and boutiques for willy-ware. These were spaces that signaled transformation and rebirth for Smith's broad audience, everyone from downtown club kids to suburban homemakers. We've been extremely lucky to have James in collaboration with Sam Shemayev Architects bring this energy to the exhibition architecture, which I hope you'll have the opportunity to see in person once the museum opens later this fall. Today, James will be speaking with two people who share his affinity for mischief and disruption, Virgil Abloh and Juan Estanescu, about a subject that is at the top of Willysmith's design agenda, creating new spaces for invention, rebellion and collaboration. The talk is in a webinar format, so we welcome you to take part in the discussion using the chat box. And at the end of the hour, we'll open it up for live questions and comments. To do this, we'll ask that you navigate to the bottom of your screen and choose the option to raise your hand. And you'll be invited to unmute so you can ask a question aloud in real time. You can also submit questions to the Q&A box and the program will provide live captioning. Now I can't help but smile as I introduce our moderator, Juan Estanescu, someone who's work and spirit I deeply admired for a long time and seen up close to her wide ranging and interdisciplinary practice. Juan is a Romanian architect who lives and works between Berlin and New York and who is interested in the spatial translation of ideas and environments as reflections of culture at large. And most recently, she's nominated for the 2019 MoMA PS1 Young Architects program. Her projects include plus pool, a floating water filtering swimming pool, thrill, as well as a wide range of collaborations with Nike, MoMA, Virgil Ablo, the Office of Play Lab, 2x4, Arup, New Museum, Storefront for Art and Architecture, Need Supply, Fool's Gold, Kanye West, and many more. Her current projects include the reconversion of a 500 meter long funicular into a public park in Romania and a house in Canada. She also writes and occasionally teaches at the Harvard Graduate School of Design. James, Virgil and Juana, thank you for sharing your time and ideas with us today. Take it away, Juana. The speakers appear on screen. Juana, a person with olive skin, long dark brown hair and red lipstick. James, a light skinned person with glasses, white hair and a beard. And Virgil, a dark skinned person with a bald head, graying stubble and glasses. Well, it's an absolute pleasure and honor to be here tonight, here in my office, but to have you all joining me. And it's my pleasure to introduce James Wines and Virgil Ablo. For those of you less familiar with James's work, I'm very jealous of you because I distinctly remember the day in architecture school when I came upon his work. And I knew at the time there was no going back anymore. So thank you, James, for making some dense, important dense in my education. James is an American artist and architect. He is co-founder alongside with Alison Sky and president of Sight, which is an architecture and environmental art studio, which is internationally known for its urban, interior design, product, architectural projects. And then there's my good friend, Virgil. I think it's fair to say that we're both students of James in different ways. Virgil and I go back quite a while, probably like a decade ago, although this year feels like a decade, so that technically makes it something. He most recently introduced himself as an avid whatever, which is a probably pretty accurate description, but having a degree in civil engineering and architecture, he navigates between the rounds of art, design and culture at large. He's currently chief creative director and founder of Off-White and men's artistic director at Louis Vuitton. But the reason we are all here tonight is really Willie Smith and the exhibition on Willie Smith called Street Couture at Cooper Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum, which is hopefully going to open soon. Until then though, I do want to point out two things. One, I think it's going to be posted in chat, but there's this incredible website, which is willismitharchive.cargo.site. You have to check it out. I kind of gave up on websites a while ago, but it's a truly amazing and really incredible resource. And in addition to that, I also strongly recommend this book on the exhibition Willie Smith Street Couture. I'm totally geeking out over this book. And partially, and the reason behind it is because it tells us the story of Willie, but not in an institutionalized way. But really, you hear from his family, his collaborators, his peers, and they paint the story of, you know, a real character, they sometimes contradict each other. And what emerges is really this incredibly free creative spirit, incredibly just authentic and open to the world. But of course, being a young black gay man, that means that openness wasn't always returned. Yet reading the story, you never really get a sense that he lost, you know, any sense of faith or orientation for that matter. So what happens is when what happened for me at least, when I read the book, you just get an incredible sense of joy, just a spirit. And that's a very elusive feeling in 2020, I don't know for you, but I can certainly say that for me. And, James, I'm curious, you designed the exhibition, but more importantly, you also designed a few of his showrooms. Oh, sorry, you designed the exhibition together with Sam Charmaev, but you also designed a few showrooms for Willie Smith, as well as his office back in the day. Did you did you guys have fun? A lot of fun. I mean, yeah, I really is not only a remarkable character in terms of integrating the arts, but he was a great spirit. And I think the most significant thing, having an exhibition of his work right now is that he was the pinnacle of integrating systems, integrating people, integrating ideas, integrating the arts. It's something that he was really a pioneer as part of it, as well as a great fashion designer. And he was just a joy to be with. He was absolutely amazing. What we started working on the showrooms and his environments. You know, I knew that he was working with other artists, but I had no idea to what extent. And he really touched on not only fashion design, but he brought in other fields. So it became this total fusion of systems. Plus, he was also a purchase street artist. And love to see his fashions in the public domain. Hopefully social distancing will soon end. And the Willy spirit will come back in full flower, because it was a remarkable period. And I think in a sense, what what America should be about. Well, yeah, we were. No, I thought I lost you. No, I mean, that's that basically I mean, what I would do is an introduction. I think it's mainly the relevance of his work. And the spirit behind it is I think we talked about earlier. He's essentially symbolic of our times. He's more relevant than ever. Because where would you find a person who is into fusing the arts is into the streets is into the commonplace, you know, transforming ideas, you know, integrating the arts with across the fields, including dance and performance and theater and painting and sculpture. He's an African American, a leading African American. And he is what the final he was a gay designer. So he's, in a sense, the embodiment of of everything that's in the news today. And Alexander Cameron's selection to have the show, let's just say, just couldn't be more pertinent and couldn't be more relevant at this time. Yeah, I have to agree with you, James, of course. And I think your writing is saying that we're basically inhabiting a world that was made possible by Willis Smith and other pioneers like him, whose stories we don't always kind of get to know. So in this case, I think we're particularly, particularly fortunate. And one thing that's really compelling is you get a sense that he was breaking all rules of fashion or all other fields for that matter, and doing so laughing Lee almost, or completely ignoring them for them. And I'm curious because, you know, just coming back to this notion of joy and or fun or playfulness or humor, that's a that's a common trait in in your and in Virgil in your work too. But also, Virgil's work, I mean, we have a great common because, again, we really start with the commonplace with the ordinary with the something that is recognizable to everywhere, like shape or volume or texture or color or whatever. It's, and then we apply to another sensibility or something that transforms it gives it another level of meaning. And that is very important. And really, with part of that as well, it's always trying to put fashion in another context, and see it in a different way. Totally. I think partially why I wanted to start off with that was also because at least in architecture, for sure, the word fun is like a dirty word that one is not allowed to use, along with with with a bunch of with a bunch of other ones. Virgil, I'm curious if you had anything to add to that. I said no, completely. You know, to even enter this conversation about design. In our moment moving forward, you know, you have to highlight a figure like Willie Smith, because there's always in history, a predecessor. You know, there's always a lens that's just before now that might be in super focus. And I think, I want to you highlighted a few things like, you know, is it rule breaking or being one self? You know, what is diversity and design? You know, these questions that we're asking ourselves, what is what what is a designer? You know, what is art? What is architecture? What is fashion? As we know, and as the world around us swirls around this idea of representing more people than just the people that participate. What you often get is a nomenclature that says you're breaking rules, you're having too much fun, you're not respecting the past, etc, etc. And and you see in Willie's body of work, how he's just free, you know, it's very similar to, you know, taking a kid to a restaurant or a movie, or a gallery exhibit and telling him not to touch the art, you know, it's like, you see that when you bring a new energy or sort of like an energy that can progress the system forward, the almost immediate reaction is to touch the art. And you could call that breaking the rules. But you could also call that sort of expressing one's cells. So to me, you know, the context for this conversation is quite vital because we're talking about designer, we're talking about through the lens of Willie, but also talking about architecture. So there's a number of ways we can go. There's, there's one quote that I want to throw out there to what both of you are speaking. And it's by Peter McQuade, who's a writer, and he writes in the book, it's a bit of a long quote. So you have to bear with me, but it's worth it. He was dating Willie at the time and was complaining about not making it professionally. And Willie told him, or he basically tells the story of saying I listened as he explained that the reason his name was on the sign outside has had nothing to do with some magical blend of ego and self confidence. But because he found it impossible to do his best work in a rigid Seventh Avenue environment. He knew because he had tried. In other words, there are those amongst us who will never fit in. It's not a question of wanting to or not wanting to it's just not possible. If you're one of those people you are going to have to figure out another way to do things, because the normal way is not going to work. You'll have to work harder and probably fail some, but the rewards are greater. If you're older, you know what I'm saying is true. If you're younger, you're welcome. And I mean, well, I'll let you guys run off of that. I'll just share the couple of slides on on Willie's work, but then also you guys collaborated recently. And and showing some of those pro the project that you also did a black and white photo of a dark skinned man with glasses arms crossed over his shoulders next to another black and white photo of an interior industrial setting. Willie Smith Community Archive homepage. Several images of Willie's work cycled through while James and Virgil speak. Yeah, James, in the era that you guys first connected, can you paint a picture of New York and the the ecosystem that you guys are inputting ideas into? Yeah, it was really that period when, you know, the whole art world was shifting, you know, it was kind of moving away from pop art and far more into performance art and environmental art. So some of my best friends are over on the Bowery, which was the main, you know, performance center. And I was in Soho, which is the main center of environmental artists. And there was a lot of dialogue going on, a lot of exchange of ideas. And it was just an amazing period because in a sense, all of the artists after pop art, we're all trying to get out of the gallery. The whole idea was to flood into the streets. And we did it in a way very naively. And we did it with a lot of energy. But the idea was just to burst forth. And get out, you know, about Smith's, what I was calling attention to the back of you walked into a gallery, and there's all those lights and all those pedestals and all those things. And you know exactly what to expect. And it was no matter anything, no matter how outrageous, as long as it was on a pedestal, or in a frame or on a wall or in a gallery, you were already preconditioned to accept that. So the rebellious spirit of that time was just get out of the gallery all together. A good friend of mine, Alice A. Cox, is an amazing environmental artist that lives next door to be still, or before in Soho now. But we always just kind of commiserate and say, Oh, we should have just stuck with, you know, three feet, four foot paintings, because all of the artists who continued in the more conventional frame of reference, you know, became millionaires, and we're always struggling because we're always trying to figure out how to do it in the landscape or in the streets. So it was not an economically, advantageous move. But it was again, part of that rebellion about can you get out of that? Those constraints and do something else. There's some other way we can do it. Several photos of a warehouse style, a clothing display. Amazing. In regards to fashion making, like, was there, was Willie one that was trying to sort of find a space within that community, or was he more bent on sort of bridging the community between art and fashion? Two in a funny way was, you know, what he asked me to design space is why he says the last thing I want to do is like Ralph Laurence. And it's really true. He didn't want to be precious looking. He wanted to be, you know, fun looking. He wanted to have something enjoyable, something different, whatever it was. And that was it. It was just the spirit of the time that had to, it just couldn't be conventional. So we he loved the streets. So we just dragged the streets into the showroom. And but he touched off a lot of things. You know, I know I'm working for you recently. I mean, fell in love with invisibility. And it's hard to folk. I'm still waiting for great photographs, but to really kind of express that idea of seeing through everything. And so that anything opaque and that kind of environment pops out into space. And well, they would have loved that idea. I didn't have it at that time. But it's interesting to speculate that, you know, if you just look at any art form or any situation, there's always another way to do it. There's always something, another dimension of that idea, no matter how simple, I always say, you know, tell students and young artists, just go back to the dumbest thing you ever thought of. Just start with that. Don't don't try to be fancy. Just start with a dumb thing. And that will, you know, expand and and become something else. Something interesting about your work is you've gone really international. I don't really can be considered really internationally, far more American. But you might just take this kind of inversion of situation and rethinking fashion to a global level, which is amazing to us. Another whole process and also made possible by the digital age of communication. Yeah, indeed, you know, and for my generation, carrying the torch from Willie and the community that you guys were fostering downtown was obviously this. There's something to that parallel of breaking out of the system and just existing on the street, you know, what happens when you stand on the street, you sort of get this barrier like this image here showcases of everyday reality meets like the theory that's happening in the galleries or the systems or the institutions. You know, and it was just particularly, I look at these images and I see how they were communicating an energy at a specific time. And I see the real value of fashion. You know, fashion is almost sort of like it's like a telegram or a telephone call, no matter what the technology is, it communicates an idea of a generation. And I see in his work, you know, the foundations for for my generation, my work. And I also see it through the lens of being African American, you know, black, and, you know, expressing one cells through the sort of the lexicon of one's own ideas. Yeah, that one thing that always amazed me about Willie, I mean, being African American, he never seemed to have any chip on his shoulder. I mean, he didn't have a, you know, angry agenda. His idea was just more integrated if you become the better it is. And, and I think that that's certainly, I get your part of it very much so, but, but it is, he did kind of eloquently express that spirit. I mean, not only his personal life, his friends and selection of, but even when we would talk together and go look for junk around the city and, and go to the west side, some of the clubs there. And, and he was, you know, I don't ever remember having a conversation where we were talking about the agonies. I mean, he seemed to be a person who if there's any agony, it was just doing better, which was a great, a great characteristic. I was listening the other evening to that incredible concert by, you know, the, that's the now I'm missing, I'm missing my fault process here at Woodstock. And I was thinking of all the people who were in that, in that whole situation. And, and every one of them just, you know, you don't have to rationalize anything. It was just the quality came through. And it was just, it was so spectacular. It was so, so moving. And, and I feel that characteristic, it, you know, it's, it's something that's in every culture. I mean, you know, African American culture certainly has dominated aspects of our culture for many, many years. And the benches and ideas. And the more that is emphasized, the more that is brought out, the less, you know, friction, I think there'll be in the society, just overpower the society with the quality of the work and the rest take care of itself. I've always felt that way. You know, I listened to Prince for the first time. It was just, it was extraordinary. I mean, I didn't, I, it takes you out of, out of any differentiation. It takes you above that argument in a way. Yeah. Yeah, I'm with the quotes. I'm really geeking out over this book. Sorry. So I just throw into the subject one because it was really powerful by, and I think I shared it with you, but it's by Dario Calmes and he says, he's quoting Willie who said, you know, in the 60s and 70s, there was this tremendous exposure given to designers based on their blackness. When the hype was over, people thought we, there were no more black designers. In a way, it's a blessing. Now we can get on with being what we are, designers. And then Dario goes on to say that the fashion industry has repeatedly devalued the impact of black people and black culture and Smith laid the groundwork for the diverse voices breaking through industry protocol today. But I mean, architecture is in many ways way worse than fashion. Virgil, you're navigating both and other fields too. Yeah. No, I found, you know, what Willie is tapping into a sentiment is what happens when you're a black creative and you sort of look, you look up at the mountain. I often think of the metaphor of like, if you're going to climb Mount Everest, you have to stare at it every day. But then, but then imagine being 100 miles further away from it. You know, that's, it's all you can see. And that, that's sort of like a shorthand phrase of, you know, when these systems aren't made for the prototype to exist for a designer, and then maybe the tides change where it's like, oh, black design might be avant garde and cool, and then they're going to pick and choose a few, you know, you, you have to go a deeper into your brain and come to terms with your purpose and path. You know, you have to, you have to absorb being the trend for the moment and not as he's relaying in his quote, or also you just have to be characterized as a box, like being put in a box. And, and what that does is it, it forces you to, to sort of, you know, I always look at the upside, I'm an optimist. So that's a, that's a part of the sort of Trojan horse of it in order to exist, but you basically adopt this very deep rationale about the work and how it exists in the perception of the work. I, for one, found the gray area in between architecture, art, music, fashion, as a sort of space that is contactless. You know, you know, I had, I've had predecessors before me try to exist in these silos, and, and much like Willie through learning his story, I found freedom in the street, like found freedom in that edge, you know, the threshold before the establishment, because there's freedom there, there's expression, there, there's an endless abyss of inspiration in real stories to be told. And, you know, being black and, and having spent time in these like higher education institution, you know, my purpose is to bring those worlds together and, and not, not even be as rebellious or as like, you know, a writer would love to call me a disruptor, you know, and I think pre-2020 you can identify, you're categorized, categorized as a disruptor when you don't fit the mold, and you might be just doing, you might be that kid in a gallery that literally just wants to see if that sculptor is really bronze or plaster or, or whatever. And, you know, all that lens of looking at Willy's career, what he created, how thoughtful he was is, you know, it's something I find of value as, as we call for a generation to be represented in these fields that aren't so diverse. Absolutely. I mean, James and I were talking earlier also about this, these boxes that everyone wants to keep one in and put one in and how they always come, they never come from the creative bit, because in essence the creative process is way more fluid and in a way it's almost there. I tend to think of architecture, for example, always in service of life as an infrastructure background to things that happen on it, but I often get confronted with being, my work being called, or being told that my work is art, not architecture, which I find to be the biggest compliment, I wish, but I also don't understand why, like why does it matter where one begins and the other one ends, if there is such a thing to begin with, like why build these walls that anyone has to kind of climb over? And James, you had some good stories about Frank Stella also being confronted with similar, like in a way I think every field is trying to hold onto its own boxes. Well, no, I had mentioned before that because, you know, I started with a lot of controversy. I mean, you know, in the beginning I remember, especially in American magazine, not in Europe, but somebody would publish one of our projects and obviously the next issue is, cancel my subscription from, you know, mainstream architects. Endured a lot of that kind of criticism of dismissal and, you know, that when we're talking, that's not real art or that's not real architecture. It's if there's some omnipotent category that we're not in touch with or something. But it really is, it's ridiculous. Well, I think I mentioned before when we were talking that I was on about a panel many years ago, and I think with Oldenburg and Roderick Constine and Frank Stella, and I think I was the only person on it who sort of represented architecture. But the idea was that the theme behind it was, and I think there's a book somewhere that was published, Controversy and Art. But the idea was that these are all artists whose work had been dismissed in the beginning. It's not real art or not real sculpture or not real anything. And I found it, you know, it was amazing and amusing. But at that, I mean, Frank Stella, he was doing his paintings of that period, and, you know, they weren't in white colors. And so his comment was, why do critics always start, they were criticizing me because I'm not, I'm not a painter. They said, you know, I'm not a painter because I don't use color. And why don't they always start with what you're not trying to do instead of starting with what you're trying to do and going forward from there. And I said, that was a very good comment on critics. And I remember Oldenburg had a brilliant moment, too. Noguchi was in the audience and was kind of trashing Oldenburg. That's not real sculpture, the usual. And Oldenburg was trying to be very polite. Well, you know, it's a way of doing sculpture. And he said, well, it's not real sculpture. I said, why isn't it real? And Noguchi says, wow, because it's not hard. It's not firm. It's not carved in marble and made in bronze or whatever. And he said, well, you know, sometimes I'm an artist and I like to take risk. And risk is a lot of fun. I like to take risk. And so Noguchi says, risk? What risk? I don't say any risk. What's your risk? And Oldenburg said, my risk is that you won't understand it. And that's so true. The bottom line. And there just isn't enough patience, I guess, in the critical system. And it's interesting, much more sceptic in the society. I've found far more interesting dialogue with just the general public often than you find with actual, you know, professionals, professional critics, professional architects or whatever. And I think we've all found that. I mean, we've done controversial works. So the minute you do that, you'll alienate some of your colleagues who are more formalists or more conservative or whatever. James, you have to join my, I'm having a sort of class or project that's called non-professional. So non-professional practice. So you have to come rile some spirits up there. But I think you're on point and, you know, part of previous conversation too was it's actually really easy to shit on things, pardon my language, to critique things. So when I think the role actually of a critic should be to try to see where things could go towards and kind of participate to furthering the idea and furthering, you know, creativity in essence with the goal of a higher purpose as opposed to just kind of knock things down, which is, it's quite an easy thing to do for that matter and also doesn't bring anything to anyone except for. I think that there's not an effort and they want to tend to want to solidify whatever they think. And it's usually solidified by kind of an academic sensibility. It's usually derived from that world. Like if there's enough examples or if there's a movement of foot or something, they'll latch on and then, you know, they won't change their mind. And, you know, my favorite quote I use in almost every lecture is that after a while an idea that isn't dangerous isn't worthy of being called an idea. And that's true. I mean, all ideas are really good ideas are dangerous. And I mean, the greatest idea of all time, I guess is the theory of relativity and that was dangerous for most of Einstein's life. So I don't think we have to be afraid of ideas. I mean, there's a bottom line for everything. And I think what's important is like we're having this conversation in 2020. You know, if we have this conversation in 2019, us as creators, the three of us highlighting the sort of rabid pill of critique, you know, I think it's often the dialogue as Iwana was saying, it's one of the critical points in culture that seemingly is just swallowed into the like, hey, to become successful, you deserve the critique in my kind of deal. It's like a tax, you know, but as we can say, like paying tax, like, what are we paying tax for? You know, what is that tax money fund? And if we're going to sort of be up against this sort of brick wall of, you know, these, these, you know, these civil rights movements to sort of ask for better representation or understanding how we relate to the climate, you know, in our relationship to the earth, et cetera, the only thing that can change is how we view something we viewed yesterday with means of progressing with means of having humanity click in some way so that we sort of solve the world's problems instead of perpetuate the rest. And I know that's a bit of a zoom out be from fancy clothes in a window and, you know, buildings on the street. But James, what I love about your work and what we can ramp back into willy is it related to everyday people, right? It didn't just relate to hollowed spaces. James, can you tell the story about the show, the first, I think you and Willie first did a window display? Oh, yeah. Well, no, we didn't do it. Actually, we had done a window display for Rizzoli, which it was our yeah, architectural books, all I could remember. So we saw a big construction site right across the street on 57th Street. So we just went across the street and got all these bricks and mortar and all like that. And we just distributed it over the window. So it's a whole construction site. The window was a construction site in and in among the the materials, of course, they placed the books, the new architectural book. Wow. I mean, this was done by John Franco Bonacetele. It was incredible curator and visionary for Rizzoli. But yeah, I mean, the store designer just went apoplectic. I mean, they took it away at a very short time because I think we're going to quit his job or something over this. But Willie passed by the store and saw this. And so that was our introduction. He called me up and he said, yeah, I really love that window you did. So you do something like that for me. So in a way, that's how it started. He really liked the jump world. And I did too because as I say, it's where you least expect to find art. And I love territories like that because they're open for exploration. If it's already, you know, a Gothic cathedral or a temple in in Greece or something. I mean, Washington, D.C. is a big bore because it's all derivative. And the iconography is not really relevant anymore. And it's boring. It's kind of copycat art. And I don't think there's any vitality in that. And because the art that lives on forever and keeps it alive is it was always controversial at the time of its inception. Always. I can't give anything that I really like. They didn't have some controversy. Had them having lived in Italy. I mean, look at Massaccio or Michelangelo. I mean, these guys were incredibly controversial for so many reasons during their own time. They're titans of the history. And, you know, I listened the other evening, just bringing it up to date to tribute a little bit of film made on Jimi Hendrix and I'll be great fan of his. And I mean, it's incredible. I mean, when you play like that, you don't have to have any other rationale. And yet that was very controversial. I mean, he was ragdollard, many years of were these retails studies that you were doing like on the street, like in the retail, did this this all predated with either your early investigations until into what you would be the architecture, like more building projects before were they happening concurrently? Well, they were happening concurrently. I always like the process. I mean, the reason I like construction sites, I mean, the process is always more interesting than the finished product. And that's a hard thing to accept. If you're an architect, you know, you always kind of hate to finish it too much. Because if you over finish it or you're over articulated, it loses something. It loses something. I see you feel the same way about fashion and products and things. I mean, it's something about a rawness or an edginess or question being asked. It's always got to have something unanswered. You know, Duchamp said, I want more interest in the questions and the answers. And he's right. I mean, it's, you know, if it makes you Duchamp, of course, is the pinnacle of that. It always makes you ask questions. And even to this day, you put some of this early work in a sculpture show today. And it's always the most interesting thing in the room. In fact, Giacometti and Duchamp are always the most interesting sculptors in the room. No matter who else is in the room. And, you know, like Jimmy Hendricks, I mean, Jimmy Hendricks strikes 10 notes and the most interesting is in the crowd. I mean, you can't get away from it. No, that reminds me too. You know, as I'm listening to these stories and I'm thinking about now and I'm, you know, I don't reflect on my own work usually ever. So, but it's a good lens, you know, 2020 is that year. I think about, you know, I just recently had a runway show. And to me, what was more interesting is like, just real, I wrote a series of like what 20 or so questions and put those out as garments that I had designed, you know, and they're up on my website. I feel that. I know it's amazing. Like just also, it's, you never forget that the body is carrying all this information. Without that, you know, the information kind of doesn't exist. So, you know, writing on the body, reshaping, I mean, all of that is inherent in the thing. It's a commentary, not only on the art of wearing something, but the body has got to be there. It's always carrying half of the message. And it's really fresh from the collage. You know, the idea it's basically powerful. When you find, and when I see you, when I look at your work, I feel like you were investigating like the architecture that maybe the industry didn't want to to sort of acknowledge, you know, they probably wanted you to stand up straight and show in the galleries and be formal and abstract, reduce, and all that. And the same as fashion and me today, it's like they would love for me to to sort of exist in the archetype that is European. I know that. They want to get you into some kind of box so that they can, well usually that's a reason to dismiss you. They put you in a box then they never have to think about it again. They can go off the next box. Oh, you have a, you know, I think we share that in Colin where we keep we seem refused. Pusal. I always try to not position myself against something because I feel it eventually we're giving too much bandwidth to the ones that were to the things that we disagree with. But I was curious about one thing. I wanted to bring it back to what you were saying earlier about the process being more exciting than the final and the questioning of everything. I don't know for how it is for for both of you, but for me, actually seeking collaborations, inter or interdisciplinary collaborations are forms of questioning things because by working with someone who, for example, an artist with an architect or something like that, I feel that my own assumptions and my own way of looking at the world is being questioned. And both of your both of your practices are incredibly collaborative. Is that also a source of questioning or what's in it for you in the collaboration? You seem to seek them out and you seem to be good collaborators. Well, it's very important. And because I mean, we're doing it right. You know, I've moved my studio to my apartment and my my middle room here is filled with people right now. So, you know, we're working. Well, actually, we're working for Virgil right now at this moment. But it really is interesting because, you know, now we're kind of favorably throwing out. Oh, yeah, I get what you mean, kind of thing. And it's getting better all the time. And it really is. It's a dialogue. But also, that helps you have that dialogue with the public. We're both a public art. Let's face it, we are public artists. And, you know, we're not really exactly tuned completely for private collectors. I mean, you could appear it. It could appear in the museum as we both have, but it isn't that comfortable there. It's much more comfortable on the street or where it is, you know, wherever it exists, it's much more comfortable there because then it's for everybody. It's not, you know, the art critic. It can be interpreted differently. And yeah, I would say that there's, there are constraints having a large audience or having a public audience. There are constraints because, you know, can't be seen or I guess or can't be. It's got to hurt people's feelings. There are certain, certain game playing, certain rules of the game. But again, you stretch it as far as you can go. I mean, yeah, I think Andy Warhol said very well, art is what you get away with. And it's really true. I mean, it's just how far you can push the envelope. When you figure, when you finalize, like those, like, I'm going to, I'm going to go into the Q&A early because that's like, I'm a student as much as a collaborator of James, but I want to, I want to dial into like, when you did those string of best stores, where you like, oh, I'm, I'm like, I've discovered this new surface area between common person in a non-sacred city and hallowed space. Did that, was that personally, like a satisfaction, or did that just seem like another job along the way? Yeah, that, from an artist standpoint, and I just saw the big boxes. I mean, it was owned by an art collector. So he understood the criticism of, of these big boxes that they were about now, and they, people never thought about them. And I always thought, putting art, we at least expect to find it. It's exciting because here's something no one ever thinks about. So you, through something to it, and you start the thought process. And I always considered the highest compliment I ever got is somebody would come up and say, you know, I never thought about a building before. And that's an interesting thing, any that you had touched on some other dimension of that, that experience of, of enclosure or habitat or whatever. We've touched on something about it, that they hadn't entertained before they saw this, this object. So it's really, you know, I love the real world. I always like kind of things on the street and banality and, and what other people don't consider art. It's always fascinating that you can do, do that. And, and in all art forms, I like that work, whether it's sound or whether it's words or whether as soon as somebody, you know, Quentin Tarantino was a master of script writing. And I always am amazed that if you take the common language and get that much portrait, but it's so on the edge of being banal. I mean, if he wasn't such a great writer, it would be nothing. It's just that he says it in a way that you just, yeah, I've heard people say that, but didn't say it quite that way. And so it takes on another dimension. But, you know, at the end of it again, I mean, every no knowledge of me hundreds was twisting what you thought was that art. Yeah. You've done the same thing. It's always twisting what everyone thought was the acceptable format for that art. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where I found voice. You know, like when you look at, like again, with the Mount Everest example, like when you look at the mountain and you look at the reinforcement of all, like the Mount Rushmore figures and realize that none look like you that, and I'm sure Willie had this same sentiment. And I want to ask you about, like when you guys were just hanging out, I could see you guys like hanging out on Bowery, like, I don't know if any of you smoke, but I visualize what are you guys like? It's really interesting. The sandwich. I think I wanted to, well, for my entire life, interestingly enough, from high school onward, virtually all of my close colleagues have either been gay or they've been African-American and both have had struggles. It wasn't, but not one of them ever, you know, weighed down our friendship with a struggle. We always talked about the art. That's all, when I was with Willie, the only time he would talk a little about his personal preferences is if we go to a gay club. You know, I really like the ramshackle quality of the anvil, for example. I like that feeling. I like that, you know, and so we'd go in this club and we'd look around and, yeah, yeah, I like this, this roughness or whatever. So, you know, other than saying things like that, and then he would talk a little bit about, I mean, he definitely had a struggle. I mean, Philadelphia is not a great place to be born and also parts of school design. I know he had a struggle because I was ahead of Carson for a while and I got lots of feedback and stories about that. But he really never be labored in, he never touched on it, he never, you know, and he knew I was probably, well, I could talk about anything. I mean, you know, I could talk about anybody's struggles and be a pretty sympathetic year. But it's just the nature, I think, of creativity is that it goes beyond that. You're right, you're looking at the bottom, you're looking at the bottom, you're looking at the bottom and you're saying, who the hell cares? It doesn't really look like these assholes. So let's not I mean, I got other things to do with my life. There's other things that are more interesting. And I think that that, that, you know, it's kind of misplaced symbolism, I guess, is, you know, society gets hip. It involves with certain icons and certainly images and certain stuff with it. But you know, what difference does it make? You know, I mean, really. Looks like we, I'm being told we, we need to move to Q&A, if that's okay with, with you guys. Yeah. Yeah. I could go on forever and so. We'll go on forever. Okay, I'm just taking one. Is that he's talking to you for so long. This is my wife. She's coming in. I know. I don't, I don't like him talking to you. She is. You're ready. You're all right. We're not supposed to, are we supposed to say that anymore? Are we supposed to, if you're commenting or not, is that, or is that. Your wife, she can say whatever she wants. Okay. It's a little bit. Well, I'm not being offensive. I'm not, I'm not commenting on, on beauty. Well, you, you're really very beautiful. But she's awesome. Very. And I don't like you. All right. My wife is open. Okay. Let's go on to. I think she was talking to you, Virgil. Okay. Question number one. Can fashion as a non-official ramification of architecture permit an individual to come up with viable solutions for architecture in general and be considered to be developed? Okay. So basically can fashion allow one to come up with viable solutions for architecture? You have to find a question so we can move through them too. If you can. Can fashion viable solutions for architecture? I think to find a backdoor into architecture and I'm just going to answer and say yes. Not any creative process. You know, it's like when you get an idea while you're running or something like that, it doesn't matter quite what you do. But I think if you have an kind of issue on your mind, it doesn't matter what if you come up with a way in by painting, writing, making fashion or anything else. Like to me, they're all one in the same in a way, serving the same purpose, unless you guys disagree. No, for me, it's literally the express lane. You know, I was a, I would have been an avid rabid arcade, you know, behind CAD, wearing like black turtlenecks with the funny glasses, like doing the whole circuit. You know, because I thought that architecture, in my mind, I'm only an architect, right? And all these other labels come to be. It was only just the timing in the small community that didn't have the surface area. And I thought that in a fashion, you know, we make things in like three weeks, three months. We show that, you know, I do 12 fashion shows. I'm responsible for 12 fashion shows a year. That's just my natural pace at like start, starting and completing an idea. And then it's like, as James said, it's on human bodies. You know, like, I couldn't even be in Broadway because I'm sure that that takes too long or theater. That takes too long. But if you think like an architect, or if you if you warp the world like an artist, all of a sudden, if you blur the lines between all these disciplines, then you have this like, oh, the world is the studio. So yeah, I just love that. Like, if you do architecture plus, pretty much anything, you start making up like 70 careers. Well, also, you're rooted in a philosophy. So if you're rooted in a way of doing things, a way of thinking, yeah, I find it pretty, pretty easy to just pass one outside the inside on the wall. I used to kind of battle with it during the, you know, escape from the gallery period. But after a while, you get comfortable and you realize that as long as you carry the idea forward, you know, you just keep innovating with things that are just, oh, it's like just on the edge of the expected, but then they're unexpected. It's almost like normal, but then it has some other difference to mention. And that always fascinates, that different turn. It's just like, again, it's like that in Tarantino, so great. He just uses common language, the stuff you hear on the street every day, but he has this ear, this amazing ear, and that's it. And you do the same with fashion. I mean, they're like other fashion, but you can tell the difference. I mean, you just, the minute you look, you know, there's a difference. And it's hard to explain. If you sit down, I think that's like critics or so. You want everything in a box. They want to have an explanation for it. And if there's no explanation, it really is painful for their profession. I mean, it's a good point just throwing it in there while before we're moving to the next question. You know, we didn't talk much about how much Willie actually pioneered and innovated. He created the artist's t-shirt. He collaborated with Cristo. Things that are, you know, normal, quote-unquote today, but they definitely weren't. And they were rather outrageous at the time. And it took, you know, a considerable amount of time for the world to catch up with to that. He did the first video fashion show before Margiela, for that matter, a lot of collaborations with in dance and so on and so forth. So, just speaking to the notion of what you were just saying, James, about things that can seem normal, like a t-shirt, but looking at them with a different with a different Exactly. All of a sudden, it's much more than a t-shirt. Right. Then it becomes something else that you really have to contemplate and think about. Which to me is like, you know, I'm really stuck on my mind with James when you brought up the sort of the formula of inside the institution, you know, paint the walls white, put it on a pedestal, put the lighting just so, then anything looks like it should be, you know, you know, in the Louvre in however many hundreds of years or something like that. But then you have Duchamp, who obviously, you know, he unraveled that notion. And then if you just take what Owana said about Willie Smith, you know, this free-thinking American coming to fashion from it with a different set of circumstances, you know, he's diverse in and discriminant in like very distinct ways. His free thinking and innovation predates some of the cannons that we thought were like the beginning, you know, but it's all in how we view that that that the beauty stories or the iconic heroic moments of an industry exist. And when you don't record those moments and when Willie isn't embraced, maybe in a way, then all of a sudden it's left off to the side. And those are just stories to learn from, you know. What were you going to say? No, you're absolutely right. This is very good. Because another thing that's interesting, I mentioned Duchamp, what Duchamp did was took advantage of all those expectations of overhead lights and pedestals and did he use a pedestal like it was never used before? He used a frame like it was never used before. He always did. He put a urinal on a pedestal in an art gallery that's conventional art. You blow the whole thing apart. Completely reassessed where you are. And I think but that had been going on for an awful long time. So it was kind of hard to violate or radicalize or do anything to that environment. So the next thing was the street. The street had not been radicalized. And I think both appreciate that. But you go to the street and you find, oh my God, here's heaven out here. There's all this stuff that's just waiting to be attacked. Yeah, no, I look at it just very much the same. And to me, when you sit, those stories are the same with David Hammond. You know, I see a complete radical perception shift when you can categorize a whole emotion in gestures that are a flag that turns red black, American flag that turns red black and green or telephone poles that become basketball hoops or the Blizzard sale. I saw someone in the comment. I think that in this year of 2020, when we're sort of searching for answers, we're almost like, you know, I think this conversation is perfect for a young generation who can unravel it and say the change that we want and the diversity that we want might be on what we're considering artists that are on the fringe or prodding at the canon in the unsafe way. You said it, Einstein was the best. I'm going to use that one. Theory of relativity probably was a pain in his side. It's still valid. They're still working around it. I mean, it's a beyond belief, the power of that simple idea. And I said, it's this advice, the young designers, they've got tips on the top for new books coming out. And I mentioned Einstein, isn't that? And here he was working as a patent clerk or something in Switzerland, was a whole country's about time. But what do they mean by time? They mean you're on time, you're not on time, it's your late, you know, your time is up. Everybody could tell you what time meant except that he asked a very simple question. What is time? Just one simple question and the most complex question of all time was what is time? And I'm sure that's why everybody knows what time is. And that's what I would tell students, go back to something that everybody else has dismissed because the thing that everyone else has dismissed is where the juice is. They dismiss it because they think that nobody would touch that with a 10-foot pole. Like no self-respecting Harvard design student would have ever approached a big box store. And I've said that many times, like I said, it is true. I mean, they disdain that world. That world was beneath contempt. You can't possibly get any high level of setting. You can't get a kind of an alter theory out of a big box. Can you? Well, you can, obviously. How do you think it? I'll go back, James, to Willie just briefly. I mean, he was not only, you know, creating from the streets, but he was also giving back. He was making his patterns publicly available for everyone. And there's lots of stories actually in this book again, where people do talk about finding those patterns and not even knowing necessarily about Willie, but growing up with those clothes and making their own clothes. And in a way, the fact that it's a continuous process, you get inspired, but you're also kind of giving back, I think is a great way. I'm just going to go through the questions, although the what is time is very hard to follow. I'll just do it through them one by one. Okay, so one is on a different note. So as a young creative who is not in a place to be sure of his, her abilities and vision, how do you find the courage to do something that might not make sense in the current conventions? So where does one find courage? Do you have the choice to question whether you have courage or not? No, boy. Well, again, part of this thing, I wrote for this advice to young designers is the coronavirus thing and environmental tragedies have changed a lot. There's no point. It's radically changed. So almost everything you think about design is going to change. I mean, it's just, it is, we've become much more dependent on virtual communication, just as we're doing right now. Buildings are going to be smaller. They're going to have to be much more energy-efficient and they're going to have to be greener in every respect. And there's all these conflicts. And here we have burgeoning populations in some countries and you're trying to make smaller buildings. So there's a lot of collisions that are going to be. So I would say that the threshold for new creativity is probably more urgent and more expansive than ever before. New creativity is just, I mean, I'm kind of over for this sort of thing because teenagers like Virgil and you can do it, but I don't know, it's really like, it is painful. I worry about it every day. I think about it like, what are we going to do that really addresses this changed world? And certainly, the arts do. I mean, the power of the arts during this whole thing. In fact, I think there was some survey reach so they asked people what they wanted the most. And I think in third place, I think after food and shelter was access to the arts. So it is a powerful force. No matter what it is, you can't explain it, but it's a powerful force. Yeah, I've been on enough zooms in this 2020 period with like a hardcore youthful crew trying to solve the world's ills. And what I've distilled ironically as we talk about critical approach, we talk about the institutions, yada, yada. Fundamentally, it's just information. Like if you were to sort of find the common denominator in Oana and I are teaching a class on redesigning the digital system between Harvard and Stanford. But, you know, see my fashion shows. You know, I did a shirt in January that said I support young black businesses just to open. Just using a graphic is like enough with this Parisian fashion. You know, I felt that there was like something being missed and like, let's start the show with that. Or when James, when you'd say like, when you grab something off the street and that looks way more compelling and interesting than something that's been manicured, ultimately what we're saying is we're just trying to rewire information. You know, like even no matter what, Duchamp, David Hammond, you know, Einstein with the theory of relativity. What makes us unique is now we've had another go at it with humanity being frustrated with the establishment. So it's an omnipresent issue. And I think just pure information access to information. Like I'm glad that this talk will be on YouTube for other kids to just watch it and gleam information. That's our best effort at changing the world amongst other things. But that's the baseline. And the arts are not going to go away. That's for sure. But they'll just come back with the different messages, different stories. I mean, they just, they're inherent. They're in our DNA. So I mean, I had these moments and I go, what the hell am I doing? You're kind of conceptual art. What does that stand in the great cosmic all when, you know, everything else is falling apart? But it is a salvation. And as I say, when I think of the correspondence I'm having internationally, you know, in China and Iran, different countries were, you know, I'm working with young people. I mean, the energy that they invest you know, it's really, it's really incredible that they, it's as I have this one young woman in Iran named Karnia and she's just extorting. I mean, she's her talent. She's going to blitz the arts. So the next 10 years you're going to hear every about her work everywhere because she's just going from architecture, through space, to dance, to performance, through, you know, transformation, all of these things just rushing ahead. And I know that, you know, it's a very constricted situation, obviously. And so it's very powerful. This next question actually speaks to the same thing. It says Will Smith undoubtedly provided a blueprint for something far in the future, a future we haven't seen yet actually. What conditions do you believe are necessary for either a community or an individual to have the capacity to imagine and build alternatives to the system that currently exists? First of all, you take that one. You know, there's a group of, go ahead. No, I was just going to say in terms of, I don't know so much about conditions because in terms of context, I don't know that there is any better context than 2020 actually to start building or imagining an alternative to the systems that exist. And I'm just going to use briefly, actually, the justice system class as an example. So the justice system or the law world, you know, all together is extremely conservative and slow to change and actually doesn't change. So when we hear the system is broken, it's because it's always been broken. It's not because it suddenly broke or anything. But the amazing thing about this moment because everything when digital really overnight, the justice system or essentially they are asking for help to redesign the system, to adjust to the digital world. So they're asking for help to redesign the system, which next didn't happen, historically, pretty much never in as far as I understand. So this is just one example in which the context today enables change. I know that's a little bit different to what the question was actually asking, but sorry, Virgil, go ahead. You know, what I'd like to see is sort of like baseline and different in a way where when I listen to Willie's story, right, and the fact to me, I want him to be a household name just the same way that if you go to someone on the street and you say, what's a name, 10 great American designers, you know, in my own personal source of inspiration, I'd want him to be the first. And I think if you go down that sort of looking glass of black American fashion designers, obviously, you know, there's a there's parameters that make that, you know, evidently the case. And when I think of my time in New York City with Shane Oliver, who I consider one of the, you know, my generation's great fashion designers, ultra-talented of my same school, you know, when James was talking about him and Willie hanging out and developing these ideas, you know, I believe that was my New York community when I was there. But as the fashion system, just like as you're talking about, any system that's not sort of representative of these holes needs more representation, you know, there's there's a group right now called, it's like black fashion fair. There's these industry trade groups that are forming in the black, black in fashion. And I think once those initiatives take root, we will see American fashion designers that are black become household names, which ultimately is important. You know, when you talk about Jimi Hendrix playing the star single banner at Woodstock, it's like, imagine if that piece of art didn't exist in the world because he was told that he wasn't a guitar player or he's playing it wrong or he didn't have the one chance to perform at Woodstock. And it was at a small East Village bar. You know, we wouldn't be talking about it the same way. So I don't want to go too long, but you get my gist. It's this, once the inequalities are corrected, all of a sudden the system is whole. Yes, I think that's really true. I mean, the problem is it's iconic. We're on one side of the fence. We're definitely on the safe side of the fence, I guess. But I realize that it's, you know, well, it's like, again, I am very self critical and the fact that to me, the Midwest is somewhere you fly over. You've got to San Francisco or LA and New York and the rest is just this wasteland where all these Trumpites live, I guess. I didn't want to mention his name, ruined the whole conversation. But it is a problem because as intellectuals, as people who are successful in our own profession, it is a tragic lack of dialogue. We really don't talk to these people who probably hate us and who have no opportunity to build a bridge to talk or to have this discourse. I mean, it's a painful thing and that's another thing. I just don't know personally how to address it. I mean, what would be our first sentence to a Trump voter? If somebody from Arkansas told me he was a pro-Trump and started to say, okay, let's have a conversation. I have absolutely no idea where our conversation will be. What would be the first words? But where would be the connection? And that's a tragic thing. That kind of division is tragic. And I think of all kinds of social-racial problems, they start with that gap. If I can just jump in real quick there, your work does that. Bingo. That's the only thing that does it. But that's an artifact of the fact that we're in the arts. The fact that Virgil and I are in the arts is in itself a privileged territory. I mean, you know, the people we talk to every day, they just, they're really not the kind of, I mean, we work and we communicate in the world and average people like it. But the way we actually operate is pretty elitist. It really is. That's what I always feel. The way we're talking today is, I'm not sure how many Trump voters we're going to have watch this. I think that's why I wanted to start to talk with this notion of fun and joy or whatever, which seems contradictory. You were right. I'm sad I dragged it down. No, that's not what I meant. But really, because I feel what it does, and you know, you sense a lot of that in reading about Willi's story, there's vulnerability in that. And that, you know, the notion of either joy or emotions of any kind, they hit a little bit deeper beyond just the typical way in which we communicate now. Language is not always, I tend to believe, at least being an optimist and an architect, I guess, that language isn't always, for me at least, the most direct tool, as you can see right now, to communicate certain points. But in a way, that's what our work does, right? Like our work is able to, or a good piece of work, artistic, architectural, any other kind of music, hits you at a different spot in which words might not, because they're rational. And I think the ability for artistry is to hit directly under the belt a little bit deeper, and connect us hopefully there. But I'm an optimist, and that's where I'm coming from. Oh, you're actually right. That is as true as it can be, because I think we're gifted, you know, aesthetically and intellectually. So, you know, thank heaven for that, for that gift. But we, that's all we can do is what we do, and it was that we communicate. And so I guess that's a good thing. You know, because it causes us so urgent, I just wish we could become more, but as we become more involved, I realize politically, we're amateurs. We're really, you know, sociologists, architects becoming sociologists now, and scientists, they're not really prepared that well. And they know a little bit, but they're not really, that's not their best work, really. I mean, they contribute to an extent, but it isn't the same. On a lighter note, next question, or did you want to speak to the Virgil? I was wondering, I do wonder, like when you were hanging out with Willie, because a little bit to Iwana's point, like somewhere deep in the sort of, deep in the nuance, we are combating the negativity through our work, even though it is elitist and we all operate in a place of privilege, which is a fact. But when I see Willie's work, I see him investigating this idea of making his creations and seeing them on the street. It's very much how I get satisfaction that my work seen on the street is educating a 17-year-old kid who's very far from an institution, very far from an elitist world, because he has the internet, or she has the ability to see this lecture. That all of a sudden, they're contributing in a way that the tall walls of our institutions were different. Did you find that Willie was, how was Willie's thought, that's my thought, but how did you find Willie's approach? Well, I think Willie is kind of like that. He did the art first and it worked and it communicated. And so the accomplishment was there without intellectualizing it. We never talked, as they say, we really didn't talk about social problems. We talked a little bit about the unfairness of the art world, I mean, the fact that it doesn't recognize something. I found it absolutely staggering when Alexander first said they were going to do a Willie Smith retrospectively. I said, you know, I thought he was born on earth. How did earth and his name fall to the side? And there's so many fashion houses totally predicated. I mean, all of the big, you know, Ralph Lauren has street wear now. Every company, the large, you know, establishment company has street wear, you know, design. And they didn't ever before. That wasn't even a word in the vocabulary. So he had this tremendous influence. And I'm sure you're right. We, by doing what we do, we do influence. I mean, I certainly communicate every single day with young people. So we're changing somebody's mind. You know, Rauschenberg said it very well about painting. He said, if you go up to a painting you've never seen before and it doesn't change your mind about something. There's something wrong with you or there's something wrong with the painting. Absolutely true because, yeah, he was a powerful artist. I mean, he crashed out his life in this almost amazing way. And again, with a gay artist and it did extraordinary things. And he was just, you know, that was his community. That was the contribution. And I do think the influence of that kind of contribution is essential. I think if we have any effect on that, young people, just people growing up, somebody who thinks they have no hope but all of a sudden they see something to say, hey, you know, I can draw or I can think or I can write or anything. We just, once spark, we've done our job. We really have. Which is perfect. We've also done our job for our next door design meeting. We don't even need to meet. I thought you were meeting on Friday. I think so. Let's see. Now how do we pick a bathroom size? It seems like we have to wrap it, but I think James's point was really the perfect place to end it. Did you guys want to add any last words? It was a pretty good choice. There's a lot of questions in the Q&A. Sorry we didn't get to all of them. Quite a lot too with regards to Willie's story and whether he was successful. I can tell you he was very successful, actually. I can only urge you to either read the book or check the website out because the website does also have a lot of information. And before I go on to close, any James Virgil last call? No, I think this is such an important... Like I'm glad. There's a lot of zooms happening. There's a lot of combination of minds. I think what we didn't even get to is the body of work that Owana and I have in the can or how James and I first met and the premise that we met. And I think it's like we're not just telling these stories from the past as if they're just sort of great ones. I think they're important. The fringe of architecture, the fringe between fashion and architecture will be where we pick up in 2021 and try to make sense of 2020. That's a very good point. And I think also that I hope we can change or hope the world will change the idea of success very often. Success in the arts is always considered, oh, well, they've gone commercial. And that's not really true at all. I mean, Willie was a prime example. I don't think he ever changed himself or his attitude or his intensity. I mean, having planned fashion weeks with him and in the often way. And just to the energy and the anxiety and the talent of which he did everything. Yeah, he knew he was great. He knew he was successful. But so what else is new? It's what you're doing now and you want to do it right. And I think that kind of energy that he communicated is a very, very powerful message. And to add to that, I think a lot of the questions to Q&A actually hit the same direction. What was most striking for me in reading Willie's story actually was that it just hit me that I only, how was it possible to only find out about him now at least to this extent? How is it possible that this book did not exist before? And the other thing that we have to remember is that Willie is part of a lineage of gay men and women who we lost much too soon due to AIDS. Crisis in the 80s. And it feels like we would desperately need them to be around to help us make sense of this world. And in many ways they actually are because culture would have not been the same today. Was it not for them? But I want to end with a Brandon Fernandez quote, one less quote for me, also from the book. But it's quite powerful because he says, Willie Smith died at 39, the same age as Brandon was. How would the present look had there been more future for Smith? And how might we continue to disrupt and empower, to teach and poke fun? How might the style continue to facilitate crossings? These questions should face us not with regret, but with task. What future can we continue to imagine? What futures can we enact in our work and in how we face the world? What futures can we embody? And on that note, I want to thank James and I want to thank Virgil. I also want to thank curator and editor, Alexander Cunningham, Karen, Cameron, Darnell, Lisby, Julie, Pastor, and Rebecca Armstrong, Willie Smith's friends and collaborators, the Cooper Hewitt-Smithsonian Design Museum for hosting us. And thank you to you, everyone, for joining us and have a wonderful evening. And please do not forget to vote. Thank you. That's for sure. Thank you. Thank you. Take care. Thank you. See you Friday.