 Thank you for staying with us. You're still watching the breakfast on plus TV Africa and right now it's time to look at our hot topic It says Zanfarra to spend three billion a Naira on consultancy services for government's projects and Joining me to just have a conversation about this is Shagrun Shakwitan. He's the chairman accountability candle and Transparency. Yeah. Good morning to thank you for joining us or transparency network. Good morning. Thank you for joining us. Yes Thanks for having me. I was a pleasure. Yes. Thank you for coming in Alright, so we're talking about this is a lot of money. We're talking about three billion Naira on consultancy fees for government projects and Some other when I did my research some other projects were 950 million to build the emmer's palaces 350 million for mosque and cemeteries and We were just seeing about 426 billion that was signed into law. It was the appropriation bill that was signed into law by the government governor in December 2023 But please I want just I just want you to walk us through all of this because there's a lot of numbers and it was looking at You know three billion Naira just for the consultancy fees That's a lot of money, but just walk us through it Well It's I think it's excellent that you guys have decided to bring this to take this as as A major story or a major issue to look into This morning and I think and I wish that more more media houses and Nigerians in general will do a bit more of this, you know We all tend to focus our attention on the federal government And they forget the sub-nationals, you know this we've got the federal government us as Some administrative Body Yeah, let me just say administrative body That runs their fears of the country at the national level and then you've got 36 others 36 others that that that also have a very direct in fact arguably a more direct impact on the life of the average Nigerian spread across the entire country and You know this this this guys fly below the radar all the time They they do whatever they want to do and they really get any kind of scrutiny from the public except, you know in exceptional cases So maybe legal state for example because it's you know, it is what it is The 50 to 60 percent of the commercial activity in Nigeria is based in legal So you tend to get a lot of focus in legal spotter caught You know river states again because a lot of our oil resources are you know tied to the activities in that state You know and a couple of other places maybe can occasionally again because of its commercial importance to Nigeria But look at the order that I just listed three out of 36 and the other 30 plus You know, these governors get away with blue murder and nobody nobody pays any attention to them So I think who knows to your team for bringing Zampara states in particular, you know to to the public focus Having said this So the The figures that we have For this conversation are basically figures from the budget of Zampara state for for this year for 2024 It's a total budget of four hundred and twenty six Billionaire That's roughly just shy of half a trillionaire so It might sound small if you compare that to the federal government budget, but How the trillionaire is not it's not you can change. It's a lot of money still And then what we're looking at is, you know some components of of that budget and how Important it is, you know for some of the items that have been placed on that budget Why are they there, you know what why for example, like you said Well, the will the government that is running a budget of just shy of a trillionaire be spending Almost half a billion era on consultancy alone, you know, I mean, this is this is it's In fact, what am I? It's almost a trillion, you know on consultancy. I mean, this is three billion Three billion on consultancy. Yeah, three billion on consultancy for government projects I am a consultant In my day job So when I see that figure I can relate to a certain extent that is definitely paid it for somebody It's absolutely paid it for somebody. So the question is what exactly will those people, you know be doing for the government when you say consultancy The the sad thing that some of us who play in that field Suffer is that people use that terminology very loosely and very widely and it used to cover pretty much anything and everything So so you'll be good to know exactly what these people are consulting what specific Expertise are they providing that justifies three billion naira, you know Of course, we have to understand that this is over a one-year period So even if you split that three billion you say for example to every on a monthly basis you're still talking of about Divided by ten is three hundred million. So you're still talking about 250 to 180 million every month Pay consultants. That's a lot of money. Yeah, you know, so I Think the people of Zanfar states should be asking questions of their governor to find out why What exactly are we paying for what are these consulting services? What what specific expertise do these guys provide that the staff of the civil service in that state cannot provide? Why are we spending a trillion a billionaire? Pardon me a billionaire to build Palaces for Amiens. Are we just appointing new Emirates? Are we creating new Emirates? You know, I mean is it that this Emirates did not have policies before it will be one thing to say you want to renovate You know the policies of Amiens to say you want to build even if it's a renovation, you know, nine hundred and fifty million Just to spend on policies of Traditional rulers who you know to be honest have very little role to play in the governor's Processing in the modern-day Nigeria, you know, that that's that's a lot of money And then three hundred and fifty million to build religious religious centers mosques Cemetery's These figures are just large And I think that's what we perhaps should be doing is to look into the details, you know Just be be a bit more thorough as they say the devil is in the details So how many how many cemeteries for example, how many mosques are we talking about, you know, will that 350? million Finance so if it's there, for example, then you'd be saying 35 million era for each mosque and cemetery I Think that again, it would calm down to you know, the people of Zanfar as they think this is this is appropriate spending of their resources Arring their more important Things that the government can spend money on that would have a direct impact on the on the on the on the well-being of the people Of Zanfar state, so there is there are so many questions to unpack, you know from from from looking at this budget Okay, so looking at the budget I mean it's it's interesting to know that the budget is has an estimate of hundred and 18 billion an era allocated for required expenditure Which is about 27% of the sum of 308 billion is about 35% which was allocated for capital expenditure So when I'm looking at the numbers, I'm wondering 118 billion, you know for recurrent expenditure then 950 million For the the construction or for the traditional rulers. It's it's a lot of numbers and Which brings me to my next question. We're talking about Zanfar estates This is a state whereby the residents are still being attacked kidnapped killed sometimes Shouldn't there be, you know, you know, they're moving the forms to talk about security of the state then actually building palaces for the emirs that is to the tune of of about 905 or 950 Yeah, 950 million Naira because shouldn't shouldn't they be thinking of of how to secure their lives and properties of the people of Zanfar mean look, it's it's It's it's all in the air and it's a matter of prioritization Like you say, you know, we all know the the issues that some Zanfar estates in particular Over the years in the last 10 years have suffered, you know with the issue of panditry It can even be argued that what the entire country is suffering today from banditry started from that we remember all the Controversies surrounding the then gobbels and for estates having meetings with these bandits Talking about them handing over their their arms and ammunition In exchange for some sort of clemency or amnesty programs, you know, and all of that, you know This this trended heavily at a point in this country So to to find that we come down to a point Two years later where well the governor doesn't seem to think that this is now a priority And in fact if you look at that budget, you actually find that There is a provision for purchase of Hilux vehicles 15 brand new cash gifts. Yeah, 15 brand new Hilux vehicles cash gifts The leaders of different repentant dance of pandits By the past governor who is the current minister of defense, you know You you really begin to wonder what exactly is going on in the state. So I think that there may be Serious misplacement of priorities as far as as far as this budget is concerned I think that's not focusing our energies on the thing that match the most to the life of the ordinary Zanfarah Citizen what are the things that we should be thinking about one? Security like you said, what are the things that can we can spend money on to better secure the lives of the people of Zanfarah state? Are there a single point solutions? For the state in terms of security that you know can be funded from the budget or perhaps should we be talking about some sort of collaboration? between Zanfarah state neighboring states and the federal government and then what what on top of funding would that require of Zanfarah state? You know, I think some some sort of coherent Thought in that regard would have been good to see In this document, let's not forget that budget documents Typical policy statements the the points to the mind the thinking of the people that are Presenting the budget. What are their plans? You know for that period that the budget covers and all of that so This budget doesn't seem to be focusing attention on this very obviously critical problem that the state still faces another points to look at is You know the the capital Expenditure to recurrent expenditure percentage is proportion of the budget and on the face of it. You see the sum of 308 billion being spent for capital expenditure, you know 75 percent of the budget and only 27 percent going to recurrent and One might be tempted to think wow. This is fantastic Because this is what we always call for But one of the things that I that I do realize is that if you look at the sub-national budgets compared to the national up to the federal Government's budget you find that the skew the recurrent capital Proposal skew is reversed for most states most states budget more for capital expenditure and less for recurrent and People have argued that this is really because the capital budgets are the easiest sources of How would I put it now to the that's where you can put the till for the money to become more readily accessible It's easier to to avoid the contract of 20 billion Knowing that 10 billion out of that 20 billion will be used to dispense you know shared Orderly amounts take orders So even that 75 to 75 to 25 percent skew in favor of capital expenditure is not something I would celebrate without Knowing the details of those projects. So I mean we already highlighted some of the items in the capital expenditure And we're talking about mosques, you know, we're talking about cemeteries Is it that cemeteries didn't exist before granted that the state might be growing and you could argue that you You know, you need more resources to manage the state better So, yeah, maybe maybe they need more cemeteries But I think scooting a scooting a scooting it must be the watchword in this case We need to be sure that all of these figures that are being thrown around in this budget And it's not just for Zampara state for the states Actually, I'm going to be you know deployed for the purposes that They stated on paper. Yeah Okay, so I mean I am big on transparency. I'm big on giving a report if you're asking for Funds, you know, you should use them for what what you asked them for like you should be deployed to the right Channels, right? So I'm big on transparency. Do we have like agencies? I know you work for You work for one, but do we have like agencies that actually, you know Just help to put these politicians on their toes that you know If you're asking for such money such amount of money, we need to see what exactly we're using it for and not just even writing that we needed to you know build Palaces and we need to build mosque and all of that. Is there a need For those palaces is there a need for those mosques there need for all the things that you've written on paper And you know, they're just people who are there to ensure that there's some level of accountability and transparency I Mean like you like you said, I I had a civil society organization That is specifically focused, you know, on this issue of accountability and transparency in public in a public life As as a country and we do our bit We've reached out to the federal government on several occasions asking for details of projects To be made available to us so we can scrutinize them and and raise alarm if there's any need to do so highlight those issues to the public if there's any need to do so and you know on occasion we do get feedback from from government But most times they don't cooperate or even when you get the feedback you find that what they do is they play around the Issue but they refer you to one document or refer you to some public Press release that they've done in the past and all of that. They never really quite subject themselves or make themselves open to Disputing it that is required. However, there are a lot of other civil society organizations as well who have put mechanisms in place to help citizens track Public expenditure public accountability issues and all of that and I think we as as a people must also Seek out, you know, these platforms and this this programs that organizations like ours are put out there To make sure that we are supportive of their actions and that the government does not See us see the civil society organizations as a problem But see us as representatives of the people because the people in themselves are showing interest in in the actions that that we're taking But absolutely we need more we need more Civil society presence. We need more civil society organizations to especially at the state level to Beam the satellite on the activities of the state government and then ensure that they just simply don't carry on as if this money is at the personal property What we have for the state level is that, you know, I like to say a lot that Our state governors are basically Empire emperors who is running the empires as they didn't fit They rarely Give account what's for the things that they do in this budget. For example, you will not see an item for security votes But it's there You know, this is a famous problem, you know that Nigeria is aware of now Every state governor is entitled to constitutionally entitled to something they call the security vote They can vote any amount that they want to that item and they are not required In fact, they are required by law not to account for it Because they claim that it's it's security votes and they cannot divulge what the money is spent for So what tends to happen is that this becomes a slush fund for government and for governance they basically take this money and Just use it for whatever they want to use it for and they call the security votes and that there that's the end of the matter So a lot of issues like this exists that we have a lot of work to do as a country to fix this issue now Let me let me say that We must remember that when we talk about the federal Republic of Nigeria and we look at the budget and we look at fiscal issues and you know expenditure issues the federal government to represent a smaller proportion of the total revenues that come into the country in terms of how That those monies are spent the federal government represents only about 35 or 40 percent 60 percent goes to the state government and the local government and the local governments We all know state governments money the resources on their behalf. So 60 percent is actually managed 60 percent of our expenditure as a country of our revenues as a country are in the hands of the governors So we all focus our attention on that 40 percent. Yes, it's in one single entity But if 60 percent spread across the 36 states is a lot of money as well And we we need to put in a lot more work to Ensure that this gentleman, you know in the 26th government houses account for what they do with this resources They are the resource of Nigerian people not their personal property. Yeah, I mean Like well, we don't really have a lot of time But I really hope that there's some level of accountability and I was even going to ask What's the conversion rate like so for the time that the CSOs Come out and talk about this. Is there anything being done? Is there? Do we do we have to you know, go to court? So is there any suit that needs to be filed? I wanted to know what the conversion rate has been so far So for instance with Zamfara if people are coming out and saying, you know, these numbers don't make sense There's the government, you know, go back and say, okay You know what we're going to cut down on this or not And I think maybe should just help me answer that quickly before we wrap it up Occasionally when there's enough of energy when there's enough of a groundswell of Attention to specific issues you have governments to reverse their position You have moments, you know look back and take remedial action But it's occasional and it really happens even when CSOs like ours go to court I get actual documents on specific issues, you know concerning governance, you know They just ignored we run a country that is run on a culture of impunity where there is no consequence for bad behavior Where people disobey court orders when they please and nothing happens thereafter, you know So invariably you find that we put in our efforts and we do the bit we can but the politicians ignore you most of the time Knowing fully well that nothing will happen. So yes, we do get some conversion But it is precious in little there's a whole lot that needs to be done But I think that's what could change that is for the people the citizens of the country themselves citizens of the states to be more Deliberate in paying attention to show interest in the issues that CSOs are pushing for them Syrup is one very famous. Yes. So that's news if the federal government sneezes. They will sue them And they do they do get a lot of judgments But if you just look at you know, the the history behind those judgements, you find a majority of those judgments are ignored majority of them are not obeyed and Nothing happens. So we as a people we as citizens of this country need to get to the point where we are in system That the government must be accountable when or court orders are given they should they must be obeyed You know, social media is very powerful, right? Yes, maybe I'll just round up by saying that social media is one place where I've seen that when there is enough of of Unit unit unity. Yes of a boss behind a specific issue We the people always prevail and I can give example of an example of an example, you know Where people have trended a particular hashtag and the government had to respond So I think Nigerians will need to you know, use, you know, the instrument of social media a bit more to get public officials To do the beating of the people rather than just do whatever pleases them at the time All right. Well, that's a very good way to leave it. I want to say thank you so much for coming in and sharing your valuable contributions Thank you so much That was a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thank you All right, we've been speaking with Shagrin Shepitoa and we've just been talking about the fact that Sampara has three billion are in consultancy fees for certain projects that they're going to be having and some of these projects are about 950 billion narrow for 950 million are for more looking at palaces for the air mayors also looking at cemeteries and Yeah, church mosque as well. So anyways, we're going to short break when we return We're looking at our next hot topic. Please stay with us