 Time is tight, so I'll move straight on. The next item of business is a debate on motion 2804 in the name of Andy Wightman on local democracy. Can I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request to speak buttons now? I'll call on Andy Wightman to speak to and move the motion. Eight minutes, please, Mr Wightman. Thank you, Presiding Officer. The Commission on Strengthening Local Democracy published its final report in August 2014, a little over two years ago. As far as I can tell, there has been no debate in Parliament on its findings. We have introduced this debate on local democracy for two reasons. First, we believe that it is important to endorse the valuable work undertaken by the Commission and believe that its principles and findings should form a core of local democratic reform during this Parliament. Second, we want to make it clear that there is a difference, a very big difference, between community empowerment, which is voluntary and partial, and local governance, which is statutory and universal. I should also stress right at the beginning that by endorsing the report, I do not mean to be implied that either the Scottish Green Party or any other party here necessarily supports every detailed finding contained within it. However, it is worth reminding members that this commission is a cross-party endeavour. The commission includes representatives of the Conservatives, Liberal Democrats, Labour, SNP and ourselves. Just as I do not expect that they would have agreed with every detailed particular of each and every paragraph, I do not expect members here to do so either. By endorsing the report, we validate the effort that went into its creation, we support the efforts of our party colleagues who sat on the commission and we send out an important message that Scotland's national legislature, which spends considerable time considering its own competencies, structures and future, also has regard to the vital role that local governance plays in the democratic architecture of Scotland. Having said that by way of introduction, I want to congratulate the members of the commission who, under the auspices of COSLA, produced this comprehensive and timely report. In particular, I pay tribute to Councillor David O'Neill, president of COSLA and chair of the commission for his leadership. I am aware that the local government and regeneration committee in the last session of Parliament published its report on flexibility and autonomy in local government in June 2014. The committee, convened by the current Minister for Local Government, took a rather dim view of the arguments around strengthening local democracy. I went so far as to suggest that interest in it was limited to, and I quote, the narrow confines of academia and COSLA. This rather dismissive assertion is reflected in the SNP amendment, which claims that the committee took into consideration the work of the commission. Quite how this would have been possible, given that the committee reported in June 2014, and the commission published its final report two months later in August 2014, I shall leave for the minister to explain. Turning to the substance of the matter, it is becoming increasingly clear that local government in Scotland is neither local nor does it govern. As the Macintosh commission noted in 1999, it could be said that Scotland today simply does not have a system of local government in the sense in which many other countries still do. The 32 councils that exist are, in effect, what in other countries are called county councils or provinces. As COSLA itself observed in 2013, Scotland is one of the most centralised countries in Europe. It is no coincidence that our European neighbours are often most successful at improving outcomes and have much greater turnout at elections. We cannot hope to emulate the success of these countries without acknowledging that they have more local councils, more local elected councillors representing fewer people and that these councils and their services are constitutionally protected and are funding secured by law, even with regard to national policymaking. In Scotland, we have 32 local authorities, yet the Netherlands has 408, nor we have 428, Belgium 589, while in Germany there are over 11,000 councils at this lowest tier of governance. Although there has been some malgamation undertaken in these countries, there has been nothing like the stripping away, the hollowing out and the elimination of local governance that has taken place in Scotland. At the beginning of the 20th century, for example, Scotland started out with over 1100 councils at the lowest tier. A century later, we've got 32. If we're serious about strengthening local democracy, as I believe we should be, then we need to be serious about doing something about it. Empowering communities is well and good and we support it, but without a strong democratic structure, it risks providing opportunities for those already motivated and engaged and provides very little for those communities that are marginalised and lacking in capacity. A community that needs action on local matters should not have to rely on voluntary effort that in turn requires it to be constituted in some form of corporate entity to make a statutory participation request to local authority. The powers that are required should be readily available through the democratic structures within communities. Empowering communities and strengthening and deepening democratic institutions are complementary, as two are other important approaches such as introducing more participatory budgeting and greater community engagement. The Edinburgh University academic Paddy Bort noted recently, that Scottish local democracy has been compared to a ladder with the lower rungs missing. It is excluding Scots from running their own local affairs, denying them access to democracy. What we have instead is the reduction of citizens to customers, a marketisation of local governance, exacerbated by outsourcing and privatisation of services. No wonder that turnout at local elections is catastrophically low, Scottish voters clearly experience local government as something that they are being excluded from and ignored by. The commission's recommendations go a long way to providing a means of reversing those trends and providing those lower rungs. I understand that the commission is soon to be reconvened. I am very pleased about this and I wish it well. I hope that all parties represented in this Parliament once again participate. I also welcome the launch last week of our democracy act as if we own the place, a coalition of organisations, campaigners and politicians who are dedicated to improving our local democracy. During this fifth session of the Scottish Parliament, it is vital that we deepen and strengthen local democracy. Local councils are a vital part of how we are governed and meaningful local control has been undermined and sidelined for far too long. Last week, the minister responded to a question by stating that there were no town halls in Scotland. He is wrong that there are almost 200 town halls across Scotland. The only difference is that they no longer have any democratic institutions inside them. As I said at the outset, by supporting this motion, you are not endorsing every detail of the commission's report, but you are endorsing a clear direction of travel which is to move Scotland toward being a more normal European country, where local communities enjoy hardwired, universal, local statutory governance with fiscal responsibility exercised at the community level. Given that the two amendments to my motion delete the substance in its entirety, Green MSPs will not be supporting them. I know that there are many members in all parties who support the broad conclusions of the commission. That should come as no surprise, but it was an all-party endeavour. I hope that those who may not support our motion tonight because of how they are being asked to vote will, nevertheless, work with all of us who want to see a genuine restoration and strengthening of local democracy across Scotland. I commend my motion to members and move the motion in my name. Thank you very much, Mr Wightman. I call on Kevin Stewart to speak to and move amendment 2804.2. Minister, six minutes please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. First of all, I would like to congratulate the Green Party for securing this debate on local democracy. There is much the Scottish Government shares with the Greens in terms of our vision for a healthy democracy. Like them, we believe that decisions that affect people's lives should be taken as near to communities as make sense for those communities. That is why we both believe in an independent Scotland, a country where the people of Scotland are trusted to shape and take all the decisions that affect our country's future. We believe that democracy should start in communities. Local people hold the sovereign power and the job of democratic institutions is to help people to achieve their goals. There will, of course, be points of detail that we will no doubt debate today. On many of the fundamental principles of how a modern democracy should work, there is much shared ground across this chamber. The Government has always believed in the fundamental importance of local government in delivering better outcomes for all of Scotland's people. It can do that because councils and their elected members know their areas, their needs and, of course, their aspirations. Our relationship with local government is one of shared interests and mutual respect. Partnership with local government is critical in tackling poverty and inequality across Scotland. An excellent recent example of that partnership working is the refugee resettlement scheme, which has been a model of joint working between central government, local authorities, partner organisations and local communities to provide a safe and welcoming home for people fleeing the continued violence in Syria. I was pleased to meet folks in Murray just recently in Forest, Syria and families who have moved there, who expressed their gratitude for the joint-up approach to delivering services for them and their families. Another example of that joint-up approach is in housing. To deliver the housing targets that we have set for this Parliament, we need to work together with local government and expand on what we do well. That will continue our collaboration over the last Parliament, which delivered over 30,000 affordable homes. We welcome the widespread debate that has taken place over the last few years on the future of local democracy. The in-depth look at democracy that has been carried out by the COSLA commission and the Jimmy Reid Foundation have helped to lay some of the foundations for today's discussion. As did the work of the Local Government and Regeneration Committee that I was privileged to chair in the last Parliament. In our work, I was determined to hear directly from local people to shape our final report. I am pleased that now as Minister for Local Government I am able to take action shaped by many of the principles and recommendations that are set out in those influential reports. We believe that now is the time for real change in how local democracy works. I can confirm today that we will build on the work that we have already done in community empowerment and introduce a local democracy bill during this Parliament that will deliver real power to our communities. At this stage, I want to be clear about a few principles. The future of local democracy is not just about lines on a map or changing administrative boundaries and all the costs that are associated with that. Neither is it simply about ratios of electors to the elected. It is also not about absolutely everything being delivered at local level. What it is about is reinvigorating local democracy, strengthening community voices and making the most of the talents of all of our communities in making people's lives better. Everybody living and working in Scotland, regardless of their background, can help to grow the economy and tackle inequality. Our renewed local democracy is about people seeing real connection with their council and increased numbers of people from all parts of our diverse society voting. We have a track record of making changes like that happen in Scotland. This Parliament passed a community empowerment act last year, giving communities new rights to expand community ownership and have their voices heard. The islands bill will reflect the unique needs of our islands communities. This local focus is complemented at regional level. This Government recognises that cities in their regions are the engines of our economy. Some two thirds of Scotland's GVA is generated within our city regions. We have two city deals in delivery in Glasgow and Aberdeen with Inverness agreed in principle and now have all our other cities at various stages in discussing deals. We have committed £760 million over the next 10 to 20 years to the first three deals. There is much to build on and much we can still do as a Parliament. This is a time of real opportunity to bring local democracy to life for the people of Scotland, the people that we all serve. We will continue our work with local government, communities themselves and this Parliament to deliver a local democracy bill that is the potential to be the most significant change in democracy in Scotland since devolution. Presiding Officer, I move the amendment in my name. Thank you very much Mr Stewart and our colleague Graham Simpson to speak and to and move amendment 2804.1, please. Five minutes. Thank you very much. I have to confess to being slightly underwhelmed by the Greens motion today. It refers to a report that was published more than two years ago, a report that while it had some merit has been largely ignored. In principle of course we on this side of the chamber are firmly on the side of strengthening local democracy but unlike the Greens and Andy Wightman we back that up with votes in this Parliament. The Greens are guilty of horrendous hypocrisy here. When they had the chance to show there on the side of local accountability by rejecting the SNP's centralising council tax plans they and Labour blew it. Warm words won't cut it. Mr Wightman. Was Mr Simpson accept that the only vote we've had in Parliament on the council tax was to the multipliers. It didn't in itself make any difference to centralisation and redistribution and that we oppose that as I understand Mr Simpson does as well. Mr Wightman knows full well that the effect of that vote was to reduce local accountability but he voted the other way. I prefer to judge parties by their actions and the Greens have been found wanting. My dear old report contains some principles we would agree with that decisions should be taken as close to communities as possible that democratic governance should be clear and understandable to communities with clear lines of accountability that communities must be able to participate in decision making that power should be from the bottom and not the top. There are some good ideas in there that we should not go along with so we don't endorse it all which is why we're not voting for the green motion. There's a democratic deficit emerging in Scotland where power is sucked to the centre. We've seen it with Police Scotland, Health and Social Care integration, the fire service and now council tax. I've said before and I'll say it again we are on a slippery slope. Kevin Stewart, if he confirmed newspaper reports that Scotland's town halls in quotes faced being stripped of more powers in an attack on local accountability, all he could say was Scotland doesn't have town halls. That presiding officer is not good enough. Kevin Stewart, A, didn't twig that town halls is newspaper language for councils and B, as Andy Wightman has said, was wrong in any case. What we need is a straight answer from the Scottish Government and maybe Mr Stewart can provide it. Are you planning to force councils to share services and strip them of further powers over, for example, roads? Maybe that's what's in his local democracy bill. I suspect the answer is a simple yes, but ministers don't wish to own up ahead of the council elections next year. Central government is not always the best place to deliver economic growth. Local people usually know best and, given the tools, can deliver what's best for their communities. Our amendment recognises this and the principle behind it is one that I believe the authors of the local democracy report would agree with, that empowering cities and city regions is essential if we're to improve the levels of economic growth in Scotland. I'm glad Kevin Stewart agrees with that. Presumably he'll be backing our amendment. This isn't about taking powers from councils. Quite the reverse, in fact. I was at a presentation by the Stirling city region team last night. It was hugely impressive. Stirling is going to be transformed by people working collaboratively for the good of their community, crucially taking the communities with them. It's a model for the way ahead, not forcing councils to do things, but giving them the tools and resources to work together. That's how to do it. It's what led the former chancellor down the northern powerhouse route. Scotland's first city deal, Glasgow, covers part of the area that I represent. The story is a bit mixed there. We've got some good projects. Others not so good. A couple of road schemes, which in Holytown and East Kilbride, won't benefit anyone and should be scrapped. However, our message is this. Give councils the power and they can deliver. Don't centralise. Trust people. I move the amendment in my name. Thank you very much. I know that time is tight, but it is a short debate. I'll call Alec Rowley to open for Labour. Please, Mr Rowley. Also, five minutes. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Speaking to this very short debate the day, I would welcome the fact that the Greens have kicked off this debate. I think that the commission on local democracy hoped that there would be a debate across communities in Scotland on the future of local government. I don't think that that quite happened. It is interesting that the minister for local government announces that he will bring forward this local democracy bill. I certainly look forward to that happening because I think that we do need to have a debate right across Scotland about what type of local government that we want to see moving forward. The Tories simply replace, it's not really an amendment, they replace the green motion today, so we won't be supporting the amendment. What I would say is clearly there is a place for regional organisation and regional government in Scotland, and local authorities are leading that by the Glasgow City Deal Aberdeen last night in this Parliament. There was a celebration of the achievement of the Stirland City Deal, so there is no doubt that we need to see some form of regional organisation around the economy, around skills, around training and co-operation. We support that and will continue to work with local authorities, but that needs to be led from local authorities and not just simply the rhetoric in this place. Mr Simpson. Is there any part of our amendment that you disagree with? The problem with the Tories amendment is that we simply replace the motion from the greens and we're not going to have that because it's important to recognise that the report that was brought forward from the commission is a good starting point and we need to move forward with it, not rule it out. The second is you play politics because the reality is, in terms of funding local government, your objection to what the SNP are doing with the council tax, your objection to that is that they think her too much. What we need to do is get rid of the council tax. If it was unfair in 2007 when Nicola Sturgeon said she would replace the council tax, and she said at that time and I quote, no tinker with the bands will make it fair, then it's still as unfair today. The Tories' objection to that is that they're tinkering too much. What we need to do is get rid of the SNP council tax and replace it with a tax that is progressive that will put local government finance on a financial footing moving forward. In terms of community impairment, the question that springs to mind for me is what is impairment? If you live in a community and you are homeless, then to empower you would be to give you a house. If you're living in cold, damp conditions and overcrowded, the impairment would be to empower you by tackling fuel poverty by giving you a house. We can play around with the word impairment. For me, one of the key areas of impairment that we should have made more of over the past few years is community planning. Community planning, the concept was, I think, quite right. It failed to properly engage with communities. While you may bring forward a bill that says that it will take 1 per cent to the local authority budget and put that down to community level and ask communities how they would spend that 1 per cent, what I would say is that community planning should result in local community plans in every community so that the community start to set what are the priorities in their areas. Budgets is one thing, but setting out how the bigger budget, the 99 per cent of the budget, is spent. How do we empower parents? How do we empower teachers? You could argue that you will not take the education budget much further than the school and the classroom, but how do we empower parents in those classrooms and in those schools? In terms of the local democracy bill, it will be interesting to have that debate moving forward. I do believe that we missed a chance that we community plan in. I welcome the fact that we are having this debate today, not just in terms of this Parliament. That debate needs to take place in the 32 council chambers across Scotland. It then needs to take place in the community forums. Let's have a big debate on the future of local empowerment, local government in Scotland that's long overdue. Thank you very much, Mr Rowley. I'm moving to open date John Finnie to be followed by Bob Dorris. No more than four minutes for speeches, I'm afraid. Let's not forget that it is local people that have fired the debate about Scotland's constitutional future and their power must not default back to the centre. That was in the introduction of the excellent report by Councillor David O'Neill. Any discussions welcome, and certainly we welcome the minister's announcement. We'll be very happy to engage on that. Of course, the devil will be in the detail. What we saw in this report was a number of principles outlined, one of them related to sovereignty, which I'm sure and I dear hope everyone can sign up to, our democratic process is about people, not about who does things to people. Another principle that was covered in the report was that of subsidiarity and people will understand that decisions should be taken as close to communities as possible and that's at the port also goes on to talk about only communities can decide on change. So just as Alec Rowley said there, that is the level of debate we need to have all the way up and down the system, but decisions coming from the bottom up not from the top down. The difficulty we do have is that at the present models my own former councillor was a councillor in Highland Council. That's the size of Belgium, as I understand the largest elected body out with the Scottish Parliament. I tell you that for instance the planning committee there, a councillor will leave WIC and travel to Ardenmuchin to adjudicate on a planning decision. That's 230 miles. That's equivalent of someone in Doncaster and South Yorkshire deciding in Edinburgh. So when the minister said as close as makes sense then I'll absolutely agree with him on the issue of independence but I hope that he'll reflect that that clearly doesn't make sense to have that level of travelling involved. When the report goes on to talk about scale and that's the I've no doubt they had Highland in mind when they talked about this, it creates an enormous gap between the local level of representative democracy and communities. So the folk in Ardenmuchin have no more in common with Caithness and the folk in South Yorkshire do with Leith. Why should they? That's not a negative comment. We need to embrace difference but arbitrary lines just as the minister talked about being drawn on the map and we've seen the recent debacle with some of the council wards it's not the way that we go about things. I think there should be some interesting issues around and look forward to the islands being brought forward some interesting ideas about democracy there. It's unfortunate that there isn't much time because I would have told you about the variation instead of one size but it's all paragraph out of the report which I think is very relevant. But what we do have is people who fondly remember town councils, who fondly remember district councils. There was a very close link, there was a clear identity and the recommendation that talked about creating local tax and spending choices. This is about choices but the people who need to make these choices are local communities. Mention has been made of the integration of health and social care. I can see that as being a positive aspect. As with the Christie commission there can be economies of scale that means that you can have local decision making but shared services and I think that's a way forward. Councillor O'Neill in his report says he wishes the legacy of this commission to be an alliance of voices that are ambitious together. I don't think our motion is particularly ambitious. It's intended as I'm already start to have the parties who after all said that they were involved in the process to acknowledge the work of their representatives in the process. Mention has also been made in the report of the start of a new conversation. What would have been far more ambitious if we had put in and this isn't a criticism of ourselves this was meant to be an inclusive approach. If we had included the final part of Councillor O'Neill's sentence was and together make change inevitable because we do need to invigorate our local democracy and this is perhaps a start. Thank you very much. I call Bob Doris. We follow about Alec Quill Hamilton. Mr Doris, please. I welcome the opportunity to debate themes around local government and local democracy here this afternoon. I do however believe that the Greens may be slightly confused over the wording of their motion in relation to local democracy. Indeed we heard from Mr Whiteman in relation to endorsing it. Does it mean supporting it? It might mean supporting certain bits of it. I'm not quite sure what would have been asked to sign up today in relation to the green motion. I do think that's unfortunate. Four minutes, I'm sorry gentlemen. I do think that's quite unfortunate. If you look at your own comments you'll see that's quite clear as you go back to the official report. I do however pay tribute to the commission on strengthening local democracy and the job that they did. We have just concluded the debate on local educational priorities where the Greens effectively called for ring-fenced funds for additional support needs in local authorities. Yet they begrudgingly supported £100 million for the attainment challenge each year by stating that they would not stand in the way of additional cash. That's their prerogative of course and I welcome the fact that they didn't stand in the way of it. I would also note that since 2007 the Scottish Government has dramatically reduced ring-fencing in local authorities as well as allowing local authorities to retain efficiency savings previously top-slice by the Labour and Lib Dem executive back in the day. Recently announced, of course, is the loosening of council tax constraints by the Scottish Government, a controversial measure to freeze the council tax at the time but welcomed by and large across the country. Yet the Scottish Government as was confirmed in the last debate of course has also stepped in to defence £80 million to secure teacher numbers after teacher numbers fell by 4,000 despite promises made by local authorities that were not delivered. I'm actually sorry that I can respond from the green benches. I'm not trying to actually provoke the point that I'm trying to make is that we can't but it's a bit oversimplistic when we talk about local democracy we have to be quite clear about what we mean and it's multifaceted and I don't think that's particularly reflected I think it's important to also put front and centre that the Scottish Government will introduce a bill that will decentralise local authority functions, budgets and democratic oversight to local communities and of course that is where the debate will move on to and I know the Greens will have some positive words to say in relation to that. This morning at the local government committee we looked at the community empowerment act and the statute instruments underpinning that and we did note that powers do already exist to extend much more local democracy but a culture change is needed and absolute statutory rights are becoming into place in relation to asset transfers for example. I also welcome comments around participatory budgeting and I would note that my Glasgow city council SNP colleagues led so ably by Suzyddechan is talking about liberating £1 million for each and every council ward in Glasgow for local communities to decide and direct how that cash is spent. That's local democracy just as much as it is councillors directing that cash or governments directing that cash and I would commend that. The time that I have left in terms of themes of local democracy is becoming much more difficult and complex to map that out because with health and social care integration with the educational attainment fund with the scrutiny or lack of it of city deals where have the people on the ground and local communities been involved in relation to what that money is going towards with the review of community planning partnerships with planning reforms and the loss of planning game with Shirets perhaps being used in communities as a badge of honour to say we have consulted with the communities but perhaps blocking co-production itself in relation to community development in relation to housing in my constituency I don't actually think the motion before us today quite reflects all of that so the provocation at the start is a way of explaining I think we need more than that what we need is a bill from the Scottish Government to look at promoting and enhancing local democracy and what we're going to get and that's what I will support Thank you very much Mr Doris Heaven for a Fender provocative I call Alex Cole-Hamilton to be followed by Alexander Stewart please Thank you Presiding Officer I'd like to start by congratulating the Green Party on an excellent motion which unlike Bob Doris the Liberal Democrats have no problem understanding the meaning of and as such we will have no problem supporting later tonight not in the first 13 seconds Mr Doris on Monday James Ferguson a retired resident from Crestorfin who subsists entirely on the state pension came to see me he was incandescent that his council tax set to be increased so that the Scottish Government can defund Edinburgh and then redistribute money into other parts of the country so angry was he that he was ready to take to the streets and stop paying council tax altogether that a pensioner should be incited to civil disobedience is an indictment of that policy and the final straw in the tolerance of many people who perceive that this government is once again meddling in local government as we have heard the commission for strengthening local democracy points to a trend of centralisation that has spanned 50 years in this country in that time we've seen the number of local councils evaporate from 203 to just 32 and then the 2011 commission on the future delivery of public services hinted that this could be cut still further I hope in her remarks the cabinet secretary when closing will confirm that the local democracy bill will not seek to reduce our councils still further Presiding Officer in over half a century of centralisation many social indicators would suggest that the flow of power to the centre has not yielded positive results the gap between rich and poor has widened whilst education attainment has fallen and at no point in that time has the pace of centralisation been as it has been under this SNP administration under the sheep's clothing of the 2007 Concordat the Scottish Government claimed to unencumber our communities from the strictures of ring ffencing they did so whilst robbing it of the only revenue levers at their disposal for nearly a decade with the council tax immobilised by SNP policy we have not had an effective system of local taxation in this country and despite winning two successive elections I don't have time I'm afraid and with two successive elections on a commitment to scrap it this Government has singularly failed to do so Presiding Officer the SNP exult those Scandinavian countries who hint at the prosperity we might enjoy as an independent nation but they do not seek to emulate them Norway alone with a population nearly identical to ours has 428 municipalities the success of countries like this is down to that absolute preeminence of the principle of subsidiarity that fundamental liberal belief that power works better when it is closer to the people yet Scotland already has the lowest number of councils in Europe certainly there are savings to be made in economies of scale through things like the shared service agenda but these should not come at the expense of a society where power is devolved to the lowest level possible the policy trajectory of this Government and control evident in the police service now applying stratclied solutions to Edinburgh's problems while frontline morale falls through the floor evident in the anxiety of healthcare professionals for the rumours that they hear of merger across our health boards and evident in the creeping erosion of the power of local government last week the First Minister admonished me for suggesting that the Lib Dems are trying to intervene in local planning we are seeking to empower authorities so that they can compel developers on planning gain it is incumbent on us as legislators and as representatives to walk lightly through the lives of the people we serve that this Parliament must stay the hand of our ministers so that we are enabling force not a controlling force in our communities and we must be ever conscious without the reversal of this centralisation then those who would be seeking further empowerment will soon find that the most frustrating words are I'm from the Scottish Government and I'm here to help Thank you very much Call Alexander Stewart, we're followed by Colin Smyth Mr Stewart, please Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer As someone who has served in local government for 17 years in Perth and Kinross I am very much aware of the part that local democracy plays Deputy Presiding Officer, local councillors really are at the coalface and it's through that that we need to ensure that constituents come to local councillors and they believe that there's a much better co-operation between them than sometimes other tiers of government that we find and so decisions are better taken by people closer to and familiar with the communities which they reflect and look after In regard to these benches here today at least we can support the principle which is mentioned in the 2014 report Reflect in the Greens motion but Deputy Presiding Officer it is two year old I know from the sole purpose of most of the debates at the moment seem to be to fill the SNP's legislation vacuum that we seem to have and so much has changed with regard to local democracy since this report was published In recent years the decision of travel has gone one way and that's into the centre we have seen more and more things being put into Holyrood than dealing with us at council level on all spheres our local police force is one councils no longer sit on joint police boards and I for one feel that is a lock a lock a loss to democratic processes within our communities it's vitally important that the local democracy that we have is kept and we find now that councils themselves are in straight jackets across Scotland planning is a particular local issue that can at times become extremely controversial but again the Scottish government has seen fit and undermined decisions that are taken at local level last year they overruled over half of the local planning decisions that we are taking that is not accountability that is control from the centre at the same time and perhaps unsurprisingly given their approach to local government and the Scottish government have continually cut funding to local government and now after nine years of a council tax freeze we will now see a council tax rise among individuals within this community and what is that tax rise going to show it's going to show that the SNP have a new proposal and that's to cut away the clear link between local democracy and local councils and individuals and we're ending up they're going to be paying for a national priority something that we should not be doing at all at local level the Scottish National Party talk about bringing powers closer to the people that is a myth they are interested in more powers in the place hoarding powers and demanding more powers constraining powers from local government and making sure that they have as much as they can here the SNP often aided and abetted by the Scottish Labour Party and the Greens are the real threat to local democracy in Scotland in sharp contrast however the UK government have been working continually with the Scottish local authorities to forge new deals which they have seen and are coming to fruition across Scotland these deals will allow greater flexibility for local authorities by working in partnership and continually doing all they can to ensure that local communities do well developing more powers in regions will allow them to design policies that better suit their own areas supporting economic growth facilitating more job creation and investing in local infrastructure in conclusion presiding officer I would urge the Scottish Government to acknowledge the fact that many decisions are best taken closer to the communities that affect them and I therefore am happy to support the amendment in Graham Simpson's name Thank you very much Mr Stewart Colin Smyth, we follow by Graham Day Colin Smyth is the penultimate speaker in the open debate Thank you very much I declare an interest as a local councillor I congratulate also the Scottish Greens on choosing the issue of local democracy for today's debate I have to confess to being a bit of an admirer of Andy Wightman's contributions to the subject over the years which very much predate his election to this Parliament and his observations today do not disappoint I may not always agree with some of his proposed remedies for the local democratic deficit we face, namely his suggestion of 180 municipalities in six or so strategic regions but I do agree with him 100 per cent on his short and to the point easily understood motion today No one with any credibility can dispute the fact that Scotland has the most centralised relationship between local and central government within the European Union after a 50-year journey of centralisation and the debate isn't about whether that leaves us out of step internationally that's taken as red the debate is between those of us who recognise that if we're serious about tackling inequalities or disenchantment with politics that position has to change and those on the other side of the debate who think centralisation is acceptable and more often than not this government fits into the latter category and the journey of centralisation has accelerated in Scotland in the past decade the Scottish Government's instinct when establishing police Scotland was to select a model that suck powers and jobs from peripheral areas into the central belt and ended any meaningful local accountability when it comes to funding local councils there's no meaningful negotiations just in position and if local government dares to call for a fair settlement the threat of sanctions is waved in their face despite the fact that for 2016-17 the Scottish Government grant from the UK Government did increase albeit by a far too low 0.7% the Scottish Government imposed a 4.5% cut in the revenue grant to local councils on the day income tax powers worth £12 billion will be passed to this Parliament I can reflect on the fact that in my decade as a local councillor I've never once had the power to set the council tax in my area and it would never cross the mind of this Government or the Tories to use those new tax powers to protect funding to councils showing content not just for local government but for the very services that local communities rely on services recent research by SPICE and Glasgow and Herriot what universities showed are used most by those on low incomes never before have we seen such disregard for local government and such a systematic breakdown in the relationship between local and central government and the one way we are witnessing today not as a partner of the Scottish Government as the minister claims but as the enemy for the past five years Scottish politics has been dominated by the debate on which powers should come to the Scottish Parliament from the UK Parliament yet would anyone suggest a meaningful debate on whether some of those powers of this Parliament would better sit in local government look at the reaction of SNP MSPs Joe McAlpine in her daily record column famously said he was wanting to devolve powers to local councils did so because he wanted to quote bring down her parliament apparently anyone who thinks a local council may be better placed to deliver a back to work programme is an enemy of the state according to Ms McAlpine I'm sorry but it's time for the more grown up politicians to have a serious debate about which powers should now be devolved from this Parliament to local communities and that minister includes local government it's very much the real unfinished business of the Smith commission indeed as Lord Smith said in his introduction to the commission's report there is a strong desire to see the principle of devolution extended further so maybe it's time for a Smith commission too to look at that work because for all this government's warn words about devolving powers to communities participatory budgeting some of the positive aspects of the community empowerment act it needs to get over its distrust and paranoia towards democratically elected councils it needs to take seriously the balance well argued and clearly evidence recommendations set out by the commission on strengthening local democracy recommendations that anyone who genuinely believes in local democracy will have no problem whatsoever supporting thank you very much on the button now called Graham Day who's the last speaker in the open debate thank you Presiding Officer there is a direction of travel being established around this important issue a bill as we've heard to decentralise local council authority functions and budgets and manifestal commitments from the government party for a reform for community planning partnerships to bring forward amongst other things the introduction of community choice budgeting and looking at properly functioning community councils delivering some services all surely welcome but it's just right me that there are two things which should be at the core of any and all deliberations around the future nature of local democracy and taking forward such measures the first of these is a preparedness to listen the second is fully exploring the merits and practicalities of any suggestions which come forward let me deal with those in order there are reasons why people are feeling disconnected with existing local democratic structures and how these deliver we need to develop a proper understanding of that disconnect not assume we know the reasons and can identify the solutions and that will only come about through genuinely seeking and taking on board the views of the public I participated in a public event in Kerry Muir in my constituency a couple of months ago looking at the future of local governance it was well attended and ultimately my perspective quite thought provoking but with the time I, as the last speaker arose to make my contribution the audience had been talked at for the best part of two hours and worse still one of the contributors had actually taken the folk there to task for not being sufficiently enthusiastic in their response to the views that they were advancing we need to be prepared to listen but also then explore in partnership whether what might look like a better approach would work effectively in practice which brings me to practicalities it's easy to promote introducing lots of smaller councils without exploring how that would work in practice and whether other mechanisms might deliver greater benefits and easy to identify apparently successful instances of local governance structures from other countries and call for these to be implemented here without examining amongst other things the circumstances in which these have worked and therefore whether we could in reality implement them or versions of them here both might appeal and indeed have their merits but change however well and tensioned at first glance is rarely without difficulty if not properly thought through Presiding Officer we need to have genuine conversations and then explore in partnership very carefully how we improve local democracy in order that we deliver real improvement of the kind that meets realistic aspirations and works and the work around the community planning partnerships the proposals around those might offer that chance and that's not to risk as the commission identifies trading away fundamental change for more modest ideas but to explore the pros and cons and practicalities of change and most importantly of all to set about this whole process in a way which rebuilds eroded capacity and confidence within communities that they can participate effectively in decision making at a local level as the report calls for that's the key here not the structures where we need many more small councils what we need to show is that people can have their views deliver listen to and then delivered we need to provide mechanisms for them to have a proper say in how services are delivered for their communities Presiding Officer Thank you very much this pen's becoming very scary everybody's keeping to their time excellent I call on Pauline McNeill to close with Labour for 4 minutes Thank you Many people are understandably losing interest in a democracy over which they feel little influence where decisions are taken far away from where they live Page 6 of the report we're debating this evening for me it's about the heart or the very challenge I've always believed that the financial crash of 2008 would trigger the start of something very big in public reaction I suspect that then the ordinary people would find a way to respond to the earthquake that robbed them of their pension their wage rises their belief in the modern democratic capitalist system a bit strong you might say for a debate about local democracy but for me personally this is exactly the point the revelation that the banks and the financial sector were selling people credit that they obviously could not afford as a political economist Joseph Stieglard put it there was a party going on and only a few people at the top were invited but the rest of us were asked to pay the bill worse than that they had conspired to manipulate the economy with accompanying criminal actions in some cases believing they would not be found out I believe that that event has rocked our democratic system to its very core because if you add to that that fewer were held to account for this in the democratic system that we've grown up in people's elective representatives did little to ensure we dress for the fact that it will take generations to recover from the fallout this world's recession fferd in previous debates the average pay for executive has risen in fact £4 million between 2002 and 2012 and over the same period real pay did not increase at all for the average worker so people feel remote from power not just political power but institutional power and there is a deep distrust of the political model for politicians who preach business as usual is it any wonder that voting trends have become unpredictable and as we've also previously debated there are dangers lurking as people in their insecurities are exploited by right-wing parties across Europe and here on our doorstep so I believe a radical overhaul of power and accountability is needed throughout the UK at every level and here in Scotland this debate is about how we can devolve power down to and from all levels of government essential I believe to restore faith in our democracy in many cases where people feel that they are closer to how decisions are being made and that they feel a part of it will be to be a start and how people might feel that their faith in the democratic system has been restored local government must be trusted and take more power to govern for the communities that they represent but in turn communities must also have more of a say in planning and long-term decisions it's not easy to get that right but I agree with Andy Wightman that there should be some statutory provision to ensure that those rights are embedded in law for local communities Brexit may yet prove to be an opportunity to devolve more power across the United Kingdom and construct new local democratic ways of getting people involved but that does mean a halt to the centralising agenda that this government seem bound for I commend the Government for the creation of the community empowerment act of the last Parliament an excellent piece of legislation but I don't think it has been driven with any passion so far and I'd like to see that happen in this Parliament in conclusion as SAVO say open government is all about a new relationship between citizens and the state and it's time to make a start in that Thank you very much Ms McNeill I call Adam Tomkins to close to the Conservatives for minutes please Mr Tomkins Thank you very much Deputy Presiding Officer The most alarming suggestion in this debate came a few moments ago where it was suggested that there should be some kind of Smith commission too to consider questions of local government in Scotland and there was a cross party shutter that was shared by Patrick Harvey and myself at that appalling suggestion the greatest single challenge facing Scotland today Mr Hardy I'm sure your fellow DPO would share that horror but is there perhaps if not a call for a Smith commission to is there perhaps a call for something akin to a fiscal framework not between UK and Scottish but between Scottish and local government Mr Tomkins I'll come to that in a few moments if I may the greatest single challenge facing Scotland today is how we grow our economy and in particular how we grow our economy relative to the rest of the United Kingdom this is what government policy should be resolutely focused on but I suggest it's also what we should have at the forefront of our minds when we think in Scotland about local government now there's much in the report of the commission on strengthening local democracy with which we agree on much worse under the SNP as a nation we have not had a mature reflective rethink of the role or scope or shape of local government in Scotland since before the dawn of devolution in 1999 the commission's report is right about all of these things but we cannot endorse a report that we don't all together agree with Andy Wightman and Alec Cole-Hamilton may be able to endorse something that they disagree with but I agree with Bob Dorris there's a first that that's an intellectual contortion too far where the report falls down is it's failure to say anything I can't I'm afraid of Mr Wightman because I don't have time is it's failure to say anything at all about the vital role that local government can and must have in boosting the local economy last night in this very Parliament as Graham Simpson said there was a quite brilliant presentation of the Stirling and Clackmannanshire city deal bit and at its core like all the UK's various city region and other growth deals is a programme of innovative and potentially transformative economic regeneration and development and the city that I represent Glasgow led the way in Scotland when its city deal was signed in 2014 it was the richest anywhere in the United Kingdom worth more than £1.1 billion to the local economy and it's fabulous that thanks to the Chancellor's autumn statement last week there is now to be a city deal for every city in Scotland the importance of this was recognised in a report published in June of this year a report that I for one certainly would have endorsed but one which we've never debated in this Parliament a sign I fear of how little the SNP Government is interested in it the report empowering Scotland cities understands that cities and their regions are the real economic drivers of Scotland but without what the report calls radical change to current working practices between central and local government our cities will be comprehensively outperformed by their English counterparts the devolution of power to England cities has galvanised them they have a confidence and a sense of ambition that is not only evident within them but which is projected to the wider world too with devolved powers cities can better integrate transport networks streamline planning decisions make localised decisions on skills and support for business and promote an attractive and competitive image and identity that's the future of local government that's what we need here in Scotland too and that's the vision, unlike the Greens' motion ambitious and aspirational as it avowedly is of local government that we endorse on these benches I support the amendment in Graham Simpson's name Thank you very much I call Nanja Constance to close for the Governor Cabinet Secretary five minutes please Thank you Minister Whiteman started his contribution to say that he and the Green Party didn't support every detail of the COSLA commission and I suppose that's the starting point for this government as well and I have to confess not unreasonably in taking quite a literal interpretation of the meaning of the word endorse nonetheless I think this debate is a good opportunity for us to begin to explore where we do have common ground and I do agree with Alex Rowley when he said that the COSLA commission was actually a good starting point and I do also want to pay tribute to Councillor David O'Neill for his tenure in local government and his time of service in COSLA and wish him well for when he retires next May a strong agreement that this government and I believe it is shared that the wide held view that local democracy in Scotland can be improved it can be improved to empower communities engage individuals all with a view to delivering better outcomes and if I can quote Councillor O'Neill be saying that and this is where I do agree with him we understand how difficult it is however the reality is that if we are serious about making Scotland fairer wealthier and healthier then we need to start putting local communities in control of what matters to them and of course we do have to balance equity with localism we have to ensure that there is an equitable provision of public services at an appropriate standard and we have to take that forward in tandem with the need for greater local decision making autonomy and flexibility and I would stress to Mr Simpson and others that this is a tripartite interest in making these improvements that work is to span local government, Scottish Government and most importantly it has to include communities and that's why in the working group that will be established it will include the Scottish Government it will include COSLA it will include an equal basis community organisations and the working group will build on the platform of the work that's went before it but that will lead in to the introduction of the local democracy bill I'm usually generous with my time but not today but if I can reassure Mr Simpson that there is no tablet of stone he shouldn't of course believe everything he reads in the Sunday papers but that we are going forward with this bill in the spirit of co-production and in terms of the claims about centralisation I have to point out that the number of councillors scrutinising Police Scotland since the reforms has actually doubled Police Scotland also have local plans multi-member ward level and we of course have 31 integrated joint boards where elected members are involved in the scrutiny and implementation of health and social care reforms and it was this Government that brought forward with much passion and much relish the community empowerment act and in terms of the city deals as a Government we will invest over the next 10 to 20 years £760 million to support that vision of economic growth becoming a reality I do have to confess however we don't have much enthusiasm for mayors and I haven't detected any strong desire across Scotland for directly elected mayors with that executive power that to me would seem to be an example of centralisation I do want to point out that the social action survey of August 2016 tells us that 96% of Scots think that local people should be involved in making decisions about the design and delivery of their public services and how resources are spent and this is where I do disagree with Mr rightman because I believe community empowerment and community involvement has to be at the very heart of local governance and has to be at the very heart of the debate that we will take forward about the changes that need to be made in local democracy and we have to move to services and provision being by communities and not necessarily always on behalf of communities and that will very much inform our thinking as we take public sector reform to its next stage All the discussion, thinking and reports whether it's the Cosmo commission by the local government and regeneration committee in the previous Parliament the Jimi Reid Foundation the work done by Solace all of that has laid strong foundation so the challenge now for us all is we need to get on with the work translating words into deeds and building that new democratic framework for Scotland and we have to continue to listen and learn from experts we have to really look and learn and apply that to a Scottish context we have to recognise that as we work together on the next chapter of our democratic story that no single size no one size fits all in terms of the agenda that we pursue and I'm very conscious of the cost to the public purse of the last round of local government reorganisation and I'm also conscious to build capacity in communities and that's why we've invested heavily in the empowering community and people and communities funds at £20 million Thank you very much cabinet secretary Thank you I call on Alison Johnston to close for the Green Party till 5.30 please Ms Johnston Thank you deputy and I'd like to thank all of those who've contributed to this lively debate this afternoon I welcome the comments by the minister of the introduction of a local democracy bill and I do hope that this signals a move away from further centralisation to Gordon Simpson of the Scottish Conservatives and to Bob Doris I would point out that your representatives on the commission did not descent from the recommendations of the report Alex Rowley is right to highlight I will not give way at this point Mr Doris Alex Rowley is right to highlight that empowerment is experienced in different ways by different people according to their circumstances and Alex Cole-Hamilton is right to point out the opposition to the Government's top slicing of council tax it's a priority that is shared but local authorities must be empowered to raise revenue and as for Alexander Stewart's painting of Andy Wightman as the greatest threat to local democracy well what can I say what can I say the Scottish Greens manifesto said that Scotland can be a bolder democracy and I'm sure we would all agree in his book Missing Scotland Willie Sullivan reminds us that 10% and more of potential voters in Scotland aren't registered and aren't voting in elections by international comparisons that's not too bad but Willie rightly says gratitude at not being the worst shouldn't translate into an acceptance and the heat of an election campaign we focus entirely on those who intend to vote yet afterwards when we learn of turnouts as low as 20% in some words in local authority elections we carry on as before yes areas in Scotland where 80% of people have declined to exercise their right to vote in Iceland in 2006 turnout dropped below 80% for the first time there was an academic inquiry soul searching as to why this had happened the electoral reform society commissioned commissioned to do a poll by act as if we own the place a poll of local people and only 1% said that local politics interests them more than watching the telly 46% said they prefer to stay in bed than vote and almost a quarter said they prefer to finish the earning now a strong democracy is just about voting so I was heartened to learn that in the same poll 45% of people said they'd give up half a day each month at least to improve their local community now this doesn't surprise me as a grass roots activist and then councillor in Edinburgh I met hundreds of people actively campaigning to keep their schools and nurseries opened fighting to save the only local green play space attempting to overcome the might of professional power that put global chain stores before shops where local folk can buy their tea people are passionate about what happens in their streets and communities but in all those cases I've mentioned the community view was rejected no matter how many meetings people had attended no matter how many had completed what they saw as infuriating text box consultations they'd spent months meeting in each other's home reading complex council papers pouring over planning proposals home made banners right into the local press up against at times the might of paid lawyers, lobbyists developers, professionals with expertise and budgets to match and after such an experience many people despair they feel disempowered quite frankly scunnered indeed the old town community council which represents this part of the city disbandied entirely following an unequal and demoralising planning battle too often politics and democracy is seen as something which has done to people rather than with them and if we believe and the Scottish Greens and I do that decisions that impact people's life should be taken where they impact most on people then the local decision making bodies must be fully empowered fiscal empowerment is key to empowering local government to deliver the outcomes we want this lack of empowerment is having a negative effect on engagement elections at community council level are a rarity and no wonder while local participation and budget setting is slowly increasing it's fair to say that the amounts are far from transformative communities are told what spend they can and can't affect with their vote and while many bring great experience as statutory consultees in areas like planning and licensing the voluntary time and effort expended by community councils when it comes to not we can do so much better the difference in voter turnout in the most and least affluent parts of this country are stark yet engaging our disengaged communities is key to addressing inequality as empowerment is key to increasing wellbeing not surprisingly those who enjoy better health are far more likely to vote in an election imagine if those active people have spoken about were able to put their skills to more positive use but the local council they were working with them as equal partners Scotland can revive local democracy by devolving more powers to local councils and requiring them to include local communities in decision making change is required our local authorities really aren't that local John Finnie referred to a three and a half hour trip to be involved in a planning decision we need to build on the cross-party work which went into COSLA's commission for strengthening local democracy the final report sets the scene explained the context Scotland's local government is not local there's a growing default position that efficient delivery increasingly means centralisation by all means be challenged by the recommendations in the report but welcome them yes proudly endorse them and vote for the green motion this evening thank you that concludes our debate Syria, point of order from Patrick Harvie thank you I'd like to raise a point of order regarding a vote that took place at the beginning of this month on the council tax substitution of proportion order all of the information provided by the Scottish Government and SPICE made it clear that that only changed the multiplier of council tax and said nothing at all about how it would be spent or by whom and yet Graham Simpson in today's debate is reporting centralisation by voting for that order Presiding Officer I understand that if Mr Simpson is purely trying to misrepresent our position that's a matter for him not for you but can we have your assurance that all of the information provided to Parliament was accurate on that matter surely we need to have the confidence to say that Mr Simpson is entirely responsible for his own complete failure to understand what he was voting for I would thank Mr Harvie for the advanced theories of a point of order and I will take it to assess the information for myself but that's a debating point that you're making not a point of order now that that concludes our debate on local democracy the next item of business is consideration of a legislative consent motion on the policing and crime bill I would ask Michael Matheson to move motion 2806 moved thank you very much the question on this motion is at decision time the next item of business is consideration of business motion 2840 in the name of Jofus Patrick on behalf of the parliamentary bureau setting out a business programme I would ask any member who wishes to speak against the motion to press their button now I call on Jofus Patrick to move motion 2840 firmly moved thank you and no member has asked to speak against the motion I'll put the question to the chamber then the question is that motion 2840 are we agreed the next item of business is consideration of business motion 2837 in the name of Jofus Patrick on behalf of the parliamentary bureau setting out a timetable on stage 1 for the limitation childhood abuse Scotland bill I would ask any member who wishes to speak against this motion to press their request to speak button now I would call on Jofus Patrick to move motion 2837 moved no member has asked to speak against the motion therefore I'll put the question to the chamber and motion 2837 are we agreed we are agreed the next item of business is consideration of a parliamentary bureau motion I would ask Jofus Patrick to move motion 2838 on approval of an SSI moved and that question will come at decision time to which we now come there are eight questions at decision time I wish to remind members that in relation to the debate on education if the amendment in the name of John Swinney is Smith falls so the first question is that amendment 2809.3 in the name of John Swinney which seeks to amend motion 2809 in the name of Ross Greer on education be agreed are we all agreed we're not agreed we'll move to our vote and members may cast their votes now the result of the vote on amendment 2809.3 in the name of John Swinney is yes 62 no 61 there were no abstentions and the motion as amended is therefore agreed the amendment in the name of Liz Smith falls so the next question is that motion 2809 in the name of Ross Greer as amended be agreed are we all agreed we're not agreed we'll move to our vote and members may cast their votes now the result of the vote on motion 2809 in the name of Ross Greer as amended is yes 83 no 34 there were six abstentions so the next question is agreed I wish to remind members that in relation to the debate in local democracy if the amendment in the name of Kevin Stewart is agreed the amendment in the name of Graham Simpson falls so the question is that amendment 2804.2 in the name of Kevin Stewart which seeks to amend motion 2804 in the name of Andy Wightman on local democracy be agreed are we all agreed we're not agreed we'll move to our vote and members may cast their votes now the result of the vote on amendment 2804.2 in the name of Kevin Stewart is yes 61 no 61 there were no abstentions the amendment is there for I use my casting vote I use my casting vote and I cast against the amendment so the amendment is not agreed so the next question is Graham Simpson yes so the next question is that amendment 2804.1 in the name of Graham Simpson which seeks to amend motion 2804 in the name of Andy Wightman on local democracy be agreed are we all agreed we're not agreed we'll move to vote and members may cast their votes now the result of the vote on amendment 2804.1 in the name of Graham Simpson is yes 92 no 31 the amendment is there for agreed the next question is that motion 2804 in the name of Andy Wightman as amended be agreed are we all agreed no we're not agreed we're not agreed we'll move to vote and members may cast their votes now the result of the vote on motion 2804 in the name of Andy Wightman as amended is yes 96 no 27 there were no abstentions and the motion as amended is there for agreed the next question is that motion 2806 in the name of Michael Matheson on the legislative consent motion on the policing and crime bill be agreed are we all agreed and the final question is that motion 2838 in the name of Joe Fitzpatrick on approval of an SSI be agreed are we all agreed we are all agreed and that concludes decision time we'll move to our members business in the name of Kezia Dugdale if members could move on quietly