 You will be more productive, you will be more efficient, you will enter flow state easier if you are connected to other people, people that bring you joy. If you don't have that in your life, there will be a big hole that drains everything else and everything else will be much more difficult. Hello, intelligent beings of this marvellous planet. Welcome to Learn From The Brands, our podcast for you from 42courses.com. Today you'll hear tips to help normalise the conversation around mental health and smashing the stigma to reach better mental well-being. Rob Stephenson is a mental health campaigner. He's the founder of the Inside Out Leaderboard, which showcases senior workplace leaders who are open about the fact that they have a mental health challenge. Rob always speaks openly about his own diagnosis of bipolar disorder and how that affected his life story. He is also the founder of Formscore, which is a movement, website and mobile app, which helps you keep track of how you're feeling and connect with those around you during tough times. Rob is a fantastic keynote speaker and was a standout hit recently at Nudstock 2021. So I am super happy that he's here today. I'm delighted to give a huge welcome to Rob Stephenson. Hey, Brent, thanks for having me. Good to be here. The main reason for speaking to you today is to speak about getting up and driving your funky soul with your July well-being sprint form booster. Do you want to tell us about that, please? Yeah, absolutely. So look, I'm a mental health campaigner on a mission of inspiring us all to be a little bit more intentional about well-being. And by that, I mean, you know, build up the self-awareness as to what is affecting our well-being and then take action. To proactively manage it. So the form booster, 30-day form booster, it's a well-being sprint. It's 30 days of kind of bite-sized snackable videos where I just talk at the camera. I have some fun. I even sing on a few of them against the advice of my wife, who's a pretty good singer and I'm not, to just inspire us to think about our well-being differently and to become that little bit more intentional, to proactively manage it. Because I think, you know, if we can, if we can do that, if we can find out those nuggets of well-being that really apply to us, we can be happier, we can be healthier, and we can be more productive. And that's the mission, but making it easy in a little bite-sized snackable video. And how do people get hold of that content, Rob? So if you go to FormScore YouTube channel, that's where we're hosting them, we've got a playlist called the 30-day form booster. It's also going to be on our website, FormScore.today. Those are the two main places. Okay. And is it free? Yep, it's free. A lot of the stuff I do is free because I think it's really important to just put this stuff out there to help people on this agenda. So I've been a mental health campaigner for four years now, but I'm really passionate about creating content and having really stimulating conversations that just inspire everyone to proactively manage their well-being. So yeah, definitely free. And talking of stimulating and inspirational. Now, the first time I knew about you, to my shame, was recently at Nudstock when you came on. And it was a very active chat already, but when you spoke and told us your story, I mean, it went on fire. So it was really something special in that day. Was it special for you? It was, Brent. Thank you. And I don't experience imposter syndrome, right? And I know many of us do. But I have to say that I was listening to some of the greatest thinkers in the world on that Nudstock stage before I was doing my presentation. You know, we've got Nobel Prize winners, we've got Rory Sutherland, we've got John Cleese. And I'm thinking, why am I here? And it was a real moment for me where I had to sort of sense check myself and think, wow, you know, you're here with your very simple concept of asking you how you are today with a score out of 10 and the whole form score thing. And I really had to kind of just have a word with myself and think, no, no, you know, your idea is good and people will resonate with it. And then, obviously, when I started presenting, you get into it, but it was a fantastic experience because, as you say, the interactive element of what I did with the people sending their scores via an online poll that was very visual really engaged the chat and obviously the personal story, my personal story about bipolar disorder and trying to end my life at one point and my journey to recovery and to be a campaigner. I think it resonated with a lot of people and it didn't resonate because I'm the greatest thinker in the world. I'm not I think it resonated because so many of us experience a mental health challenge, but actually do so in silence because of the stigma. And that with the interaction made a pretty electric presentation, but I was so grateful to be in that company on that stage. It was you did absolutely marvelously well honestly. And yeah, I was monitoring the chat for 42 courses, yeah, pretty much all day. And it just blew up when you when you're speaking, I think it's because of the humility, the honesty. As you say, the story, it was just yeah, people were entirely 100% engaged. It was awesome. Well, thank you. I mean, thank you for your kind words. I was literally blown away by the response. And you know, it's nice to know that my words are resonating on this really important topic. Now, I was really excited to speak to you because of your not stock appearance. And I asked friends and people on Twitter and LinkedIn and stuff, like, you know, what kind of questions would you like to ask Rob? So I've got actually some questions from various people. They're not all mine, but I think they're really interesting questions. So one of the first ones was should we define it as mental health or should we call it neural diversity? What's your opinion there? I've got a pretty strong opinion on that because I think the two are very distinct. Okay, you say mental health. And before I even answer that question, there's another distinction I want to make that mental health, we all have right, we all have mental health. And some of us will have a mental illness of diagnosable condition. All of us will experience mental ill health just like we do physical ill health. So, you know, it's not black and white, it's not well or ill. So, you know, even the people that are generally mentally well will experience a high degree of stress at times will experience the concerns about the global economy at times or the worries about the pandemic. So I think mental health is a continuum of, you know, struggling through to thriving well through to will that we all oscillate daily and hourly up and down. Now, neurodiversity is a separate issue to mental health and mental illness. So neurodiverse people that might experience autism or attention deficit disorder. So these are things that you're born with and need to be managed. Often a mental illness is something that in my understanding of it is can be triggered by trauma or events in life. Now, autism, if you've got autism or you're on the autism spectrum, you can then experience a mental health challenge. But I think it's too often these these are lumped together and they're very separate. So, you know, we need to smash the stigma of mental ill health in our workplaces. We also need to have workplace cultures that are conducive to hiring neurodiverse thinkers and people. Yeah. Now, I think I've read it somewhere where you said that you want to inspire your workplaces where people can put their hands up and say, hey, I'm struggling with mental health. Is there still quite a big stigma, as you say, attached to saying mental ill health rather than well being is or should we forget about the stigma and we've gone past that and it's okay to say I'm struggling with mental ill health. So there's a good friend of mine and his name is Jeff McDonald and Jeff was one of my inspirations for coming out and sharing my story of mental illness. And Jeff, I think as would say in the UK, we've seen progress. He's been a campaigner against stigma for probably 10 years now. And I notice in his keynotes because I hear him talk regularly, he used to say we're just in the foothills of smashing stigma, but they're still the mounting to climb. He now says we're in base camp. So I think we've moved along a little bit, right? But the mountain is still very much there to climb. So I think in the UK, stigma definitely still exists. People are still fearful of talking about mental illness and thinking that they'll be perceived differently, that their career will be affected, that they might not get a bonus or a promotion. But a lot of good work has been done from campaigners, from workplaces, from politicians, from thought leaders on smashing stigma in the UK. And I think we are getting to a point where we're getting more open cultures. Now, we're nowhere near where we need to be, but we've progressed. But if you look at the world and globally, and you look at pockets, if you go to Asia, the stigma is still very much alive and present. And you do not talk about mental ill health. Same in the Middle East cultures. And these are often signs of weakness. I've got a role model on part of what I do is the inside out leaderboard where I showcase business leaders, workplace leaders who are open about their challenges. And one of my role models is from Nepalese descent, his parents are Nepalese. And he tells me that there's no word for mental illness in Nepalese. There's a word for crazy, but not mental illness. And so you've even got stigmas within the language in certain cultures. So the stigma globally definitely exists. There's a lot of people working to change it. There's a lot of good work being done. There's so much more to do. And for me, I think even in the UK, it's a 10 year project at best where people will feel no shame, no stigma for talking about mental illness like we wouldn't feel for a physical health challenge. Now, maybe taking that first step higher out of Basecamp. What can managers, team leaders, people at work, just friends, colleagues at work, what can they do to help in this, you know, the next steps up? Is it asking the how are you today? Like you've got in your backdrop, is it? And then the double asking, I think you were saying in that stuff? Yeah, I think that's part of it. And for me, that's around creating cultures of care. It's around recognising that right now, many of us will be struggling with our mental health. The pandemic will have created a lot more incidences of people struggling with depression, anxiety, trauma, PTSD, we'll start to see those cases come through. But I think actually to answer your question, how can we start moving above Basecamp? For me, the most powerful thing is storytelling. It's storytelling at a senior leader level. So leaders sharing their stories of mental health within their workplace to say, actually, it is okay to talk about mental illness. And that doesn't damage your career. You know, we've I've been promoted, despite or because of my challenges. I think it's also, you know, having employee resource groups where people have got somewhere to go to receive support from their peers. It's having benefits and solutions in the organisation that manages and leaders role model by using and visibly using and talking about that. So I think there's multiple levels to it. But we're all where the stigma of mental ill health is concerned, it's about normalising the conversation. I think where it's where it's important to ask that question, how are you today right now is because we don't have the visual cues that we might have had prior to the pandemic, because we've all been working remotely, and we're talking about work moving to hybrid work models. So how are we knowing when a colleague might be struggling, you know, because we're hiding behind, you know, a zoom screen, a team screen, and we're not seeing those behaviour changes. So asking that question, how are you today, and the today bit adds a level of emphasis and immediacy and a thought that we might want to, you know, get the answer or ask it twice as a way of reinforcing that question to say, actually, I really care about you. My colleagues, my direct reports are the people in the business, and I want to know how you're doing and have that sense of curiosity and wait and listen to the answer. And don't be afraid of the answer, right? And this is actually what I was really wanting to speak to you, because I've done a few years in corporate, just recently come to 42 courses, but and I was a leader of quite a few people, and I used to ask this same question in one-to-ones, not the form score, but I just say, how are you feeling out of 10? And then when people gave the answer, I would say, and what would make it one higher, and then what would make it a one lower? And it just helped people examine some things going on. Well, that's a brilliant way of looking at it. And that's at the essence of what form score is all about. It's thinking, okay, I'm a seven today, what's what's stopping me being an eight? Now, I know I didn't sleep long enough last night, I had to get up early, and I was to bed later than I should have been. So, okay, that's manageable, I can get a good night's sleep tonight, and hopefully I'll be an eight tomorrow. But if it's something more fundamental, that's the self-awareness that allows you to then change behavior, change lifestyle, take a break, reconnect with family, whatever it might be, to ultimately try to be thriving, or more towards thriving more of the time. But also, if someone is then, you know, a four or a three, it's thinking, okay, how long have you been there? What's driving it? Is this a prompt to seek professional help, to see a therapist, to use the employee assistance program, if you've got that in the workplace, to go and see a doctor, whatever resources you've got at your disposal, it's the awareness that actually now might be a time to do it. But I love that idea of marginal gains, micro steps, incremental small change based on increased knowledge. And I think that knowledge is really powerful in being able to facilitate that change. And are there any techniques to help, like you're saying, you know, zooming to your colleagues and stuff, are there any techniques to help spot mental health issues? So, I think we need to create spaces to and psychologically safe spaces where people feel more comfortable in opening up about how they're feeling. Now, again, the form score is designed to keep it a little bit less threatening by using a number out of 10 to communicate how we're feeling. But I think as a manager, and particularly as a manager working remotely, we're often all about the business. And I think we need to create one to one spaces and it might not necessarily be with a manager, it could be with a peer, or it could be with a buddy system where we're just having coffee with other people in the organization, but we know we're going to talk about well being. But I think most challenges of mental ill health are noticed by spotting behavior change. So we've got to have a baseline to understand when this behavior change. Now, we would normally get that visually. People turn up at the same time, they have their coffee at the same time, they would typically go and get their lunch, perhaps go to the gym. You see people's patterns of behavior. Now, we're not seeing those now. So we need to replace those with asking how people are doing, but in a way that we're still building up some knowledge of what that baseline might be. Now, that's difficult when you're remote all of the time. So for me, well being check-ins are important to understand, you know, what's going on for us without well being, what's driving it, what are our concerns, what are our pressure points. Another good one that I've heard used is something called well being non-negotiables. So this is quite a cool concept. As a team, before you start a project, particularly if a busy time is coming up, you'll say what your non-negotiables are. What are the one or two things you need to do each week to look after your well being, to stay well? And you kind of, you collectively write those down as a team, but then what the team does is kind of develop a social contract around it that we're all holding each other to account. So, you know, if Peter over there hasn't got home to put his children to bed and he would normally do so, and that's his well being non-negotiable that day, then the other team members would be saying, then the other team members would be saying, hey, why haven't you done that? You know, if Jenny didn't make the gym session that she would normally go to on a Tuesday, why haven't you done that? That's what you need to do to stay well. And I love that idea of holding each other to account around our well being. I think that's pretty helpful too. And is this, Rob, is this what you do for clients, is that you go into a company and you set up an environment for better mental health? Yeah, I do a few different things. So I do a lot of sort of inspirational stuff. So that's keynotes to either senior leadership teams as to the why of well being and the how, or all hands meetings where I might be inspiring people to get on a personal well being journey. For other clients, I would then do exactly that is help them with a well being strategy, what that might look like, you know, what elements of, you know, awareness, support, prevention we'd need to be looking at. And then bringing tools like the one I mentioned, you know, the non-negotiables or other aspects at a team level for them to use. So I do a whole range of stuff that's connected really to that idea of creating a mentally healthier workplace. And another thing for teams is to use the form score app, right? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm really excited about this because what we do with the form score, it's a simple concept. As I mentioned, you track your own form, well being with a score out of 10. Over time, within the app, you can then build up an awareness of what's driving it because you tag sleep or exercise or connections as to what's affecting your score. So you build up some personal analytics. But importantly, what it allows you to do is connect with others. So if we're connected on the app, you see my seven out of 10 today, but you also would notice if I got to a four, in fact, you get a notification, your mate Rob is a four out of 10. And that facilitates peer support amongst, you know, trusted colleagues, friends, family members. But I think then what's exciting about the workplace application is we aggregate those scores up anonymously. And we've got effectively a real time measure of team well-being and organizational well-being that we can cut up by different geographies or whatever. Now this compared to a pulse survey, which is a moment in time and ignores pretty much everything that's gone on before, is real time. And so actually, if you've got a team that is showing a few people with low scores, you can then make sure that those resources that are available are being signed posted to that team. If another team is showing that they're trending down on form because of sleep, then you can do a lunch and learn of sleep to that particular team. So you're personalizing your well-being interventions based on need within your organization, and have got a real time metric. So we're super excited about this. We've been trialling it with workplaces. We're now converting some to enterprise clients and getting many more, showing it interesting and giving it a go. And I think Ogilvy Consulting, we're using it in the run up to Nodgestot, right? Yeah. So I was really grateful and fortunate to present to Dan Bennett of Ogilvy when he was on something called the Marketing Academy. And it was a great cohort of up-and-coming marketing directors. And I got to sort of share my story and share the form score concept with them just before lockdown. And then Dan grabbed the form score concept and had been using it with the Ogilvy team through lockdown. And they found it really, really effective, which is how I sort of built the relationship up with them. And that led me to being on the Nodgestot stage. So I was super pleased that they found it useful at a team level. Well, I'm glad they did. And we discovered you at Nodgestot. Yeah, thank you. Now, you spoke earlier about COVID and the long-term effects of this. What advice do you have for people who would be feeling alone because of isolation on home office or, I don't know, maybe a woman in an abusive relationship or even people that are not in kind of the home office environment that are maybe working in a team, face-to-face, like a zero-hours contract. And even though they're in amongst people, they're feeling alone. It's a really difficult and it's a good question. It's a difficult one. So there's a great book by Narina Hertz called The Lonely Century. And she wrote it actually prior to lockdown. And she talks about the rise of the contactless society. You can do your yoga with Adrienne, you can get your food from Delivery, you can get your shopping from a Cardo and never see a person. And loneliness is a real problem. She also talks about in New York, and I'm sure you can get this everywhere, you can hire a friend by the hour. Nothing sexual, it's just actually hiring a friend that will come and have coffee with you or go shopping with you for professionals who haven't managed to find the time to build relationships and friendships. And I'm like, wow, this is staggering. And loneliness in the workplace, you mentioned things like zero-hours contracts, you mentioned isolation through the pandemic. It's a real problem. It's a real problem. And I think if the pandemic has shown us anything for all of us, it is how important social connections are on our well-being. And there's lots of science that back this up. But we've had our social connections forcibly removed to be safe and well because of the pandemic. But actually, as you point out, there are many people that are lacking in those social connections in their day-to-day life. And you asked me what I advise, what is the answer. So I think it's a big problem to solve. For me, for those of us that are not prioritising their connections because we're too busy or we've got too much going on, my call to action there is actually understand and work out a little bit around what this actually means to you because you will be more productive, you will be more efficient, you will enter flow state easier if you are connected to other people, people that bring you joy. If you don't have that in your life, there will be a big hole that drains everything else and everything else will be much more difficult. So I think there are people, there's a category of people I think that could be prioritising connections more but don't because of choice. And I think we need to provide some education literacy as to the why. I think there's a sadder case though of people that genuinely don't have those connections and I don't have the answers to this and it's something that plays on my mind a lot in the context of form score because form score is all about offering peer support. But what about if somebody's on the app, they're tracking their score and they find that quite useful but they don't have anyone they feel comfortable connecting with. And we've got to use technology to solve that problem I think and get technology to a place where people can be supported on the app without that peer support network so we'll do that. But I think we've just got to look at a societal level and think what is really important here you know economic growth return on shareholder value or happy healthy economies where populations and workforces and actually what are we doing to facilitate connections particularly when we're talking about changing the working model. So I think employers need to think about it's not just about you know three days in the office two days at home how are we helping people connect in our workplace and how are we catering for those that you know might not naturally be so exuberant or outgoing to forge those connections you know throwing people into different team situations you know putting people together in working groups from different parts of a business. I think there's a few ideas there and I think we've got to be creative but I don't have a satisfactory answer for you but it is a question that is in my mind for sure Brent. Would it be advisable for people to if they're on like WhatsApp with their friends or whichever messaging they are using would it be better for them to not be typing but rather FaceTiming like on a video call so does that add a little bit of extra connection? Yeah I say actually WhatsApp groups have been shown so I work with on my advisory board there's a doctor of psychology Dr Linda Kay and she's specifically done some research on the impact of mental health of WhatsApp groups and actually she has shown that there is a positive impact on mental well-being of the group so there's around you know that level of support that level of connection that level of belonging and involvement you get from a group scenario so I think you know the way we're using groups is important so we can get some positives. I think the more bigger negatives around you know social platforms are you know the sense of perfectionism the need to you know the perceived need to show that we're having this amazing time when you know it's all fake right nobody lives their life like they portray on social platforms and there's a lot of hate on platforms like Twitter that I think is very negative and bad for people's mental health. Should people be FaceTiming more I mean I think we're all a bit zoomed out right we're all a bit video-conferenced out as a result of the pandemic I think what people should be doing is now the world is unlocking in various different degrees it's thinking about who gives you joy in your life and are you getting enough nourishing content from those people that give you joy rather than you know being stimulated by the content of the multitudes that you are connected with in you know 200 people on whatever platform you use focus on those people that are actually nourishing and give you joy and think are you seeing enough of them so I I was fortunate enough to go for dinner at a hotel last night my friend is open to hotel it's called Birch the Sunday Times Hotel of the year and caught up with him and a good old friend we all used to own bars together and it was just a wonderful experience you know just catching up with people that bring me joy and we don't often do that enough you know we compromise on two things when we're busy sleep and our connections and these are the two things that really nourish us the most right plus exercise so you know for me I think it's a choice thing so if we're spending hours scrolling through people's insta feeds or facebook feeds could we be using that time to be doing something meaningful with someone we care about yeah actually I when I was working in corporate I basically got rid of all social media and then and now I have to do it a little bit for work now and I put instagram back on my phone and was looking at it and I just found it actually absurd it's really absurd the experience when you first go back to after a detox it's it is a detox is a great word for for social isn't it I think we do need those detoxes and and you know this one might sound kind of ironic coming from someone that's developed an app that facilitates social connections right but I think there's there's facilitating connections for good and then there's the apps in themselves inherently on bad it's what people do with them that can be bad but I'm with you I don't use facebook particularly I don't use twitter particularly I find I find twitter very difficult to engage with even though from a marketing perspective I should be using it more and that's a real challenge for me I think in terms of how I engage with these platforms from a business sense to what what I think is good for me personally now just a couple more questions I know you're very busy on this launch day so this is again from someone but I thought yeah this is quite an interesting one that they said that they've noticed that young people gen zed I presume say that they are anxious and they have anxiety about exams or a job interview when is this just nerves or is it like genuine anxiety which is getting into mental health areas or is it trendy relabelling does it do a disservice to people with genuine anxiety what are your thoughts on this I think it's an interesting one so I think the generations that are coming through first of all are more open about their mental health which is brilliant so I think you know as we seem you know my children come through into adult life that the stigma won't exist when they're you know in their 20s I think regrettably certain common mental health challenges such as anxiety are almost I don't want to use the word trendy but you know popular to talk about and I think there will be elements of you know feeling nervous being described as anxiety and I think that you know we do need to be mindful of our language on this and I think that can diminish someone who's got general anxiety disorder which is and panic attacks which is yeah it's a serious challenge when you yeah if you experience a panic attack for the first time you actually feel like you're dying with a heart attack now that's not worries about exams but I think I suspect and I think the data does back this up that the generations coming through are also experiencing greater levels of actual anxiety and I think our discussion before in terms of you know perfectionism the need to compare the just the sheer level of stuff coming at people from social media will be pretty tough right will be pretty tough and it's a you know it's a pretty uncertain world you know if you are you know if you're in your teens right now you will likely be worried about the planet right you'll be worried about you know what what what the environment will look like in 30 years time when when you're my age and I think that that will create for some genuine levels of anxiety so I think I think some people will use the term inappropriately and it won't mean that but I think there are rising levels of anxiety in society for sure I mean I think the World Health Organization I think I'm quite in this right I've said there's over a billion people that experience anxiety on the planet now that's a staggering number of people and a lot of it will be you know the way that we're living the loss of community and the virus will have amplified all of this yeah yeah it's all very difficult but yeah I think there are really positive steps with uh there's so many celebrities aren't there that are speaking about this issue now more and more sports people as well which also helps because that's you know got that kind of uh you know have to be focused and macho and stuff like that so it's it's really great that people like that are speaking about it now can I throw a couple of your lighter questions back at you Rob go for it yeah go for it god if mental health were a song what would it be so um um there's there's there's probably two that I talk about but there's a song called Over You by North Bass and it's a drum and bass song right and um I'm not massive drum and bass head but I appreciate music but this was a song that I was riding the whole Tour de France on a static trainer in the name of mental health awareness three years ago and the 02 were involved and they let me ride a bike on top of the 02 arena and we put this little promo video together and North Bass allowed me to use this song and it's sort of it's very it starts off very kind of um melodic and it just builds and builds and builds then the beat kicks in and for me it reminds me of the period when I come out of a depressive moment and I'm back to full attack and action um so there's that one and the other one I'd mention is um a song by it's my favorite ever I'm a house DJ really I play house music and um Pete Heller Big Love um it's just the song that I've just had so many euphoric moments too with people that are very meaningful to me and it's always one that I return to my DJ sets and play when I want to get a reaction so that that is more the joy of mental health as well I think I'd go for Love Train by the OJs ah very good tune very good tune yeah um and if mental health were a food so for me if mental health were a food I think it would be a stir fry so you've got many different ingredients you can um and it can it can change it's never the same you can you can do the same stir fry each time but the spices will be different the you know the protein might be different it's kind of comforting get in a way um it's surprising get you share it so for me it's a little bit unpredictable um and you don't quite know what you're going to get um and it's all sort of a whole that is bigger than the ingredients awesome okay and my now your question is how are you today which you always ask yeah my question that I always ask is going to be a strange one for you um this is to finish though so so um you have to choose to fight between a horse sized duck or 100 duck sized horses so which do you choose to fight and why so I've got a fight either a a duck that's the size a huge duck yeah or many many many very small horses I'd fight the duck um I'd fight the duck um and the reason for that is one I think it would look funnier right so um you know as far as fighting a big huge animal could look funny um so stamping on loads you know I'd picture the horses that I'd be stamping on them that would just look really cruel and and you know they'd probably overwhelm you but I just picture that image of stamping on the small horses it just wouldn't feel right whereas you know a huge duck that I probably wouldn't win either of those fights but clearly I'm not going to you know horse-sized duck would probably just take me down in no second but I think it would um it would feel like a fairer fight that I'm going to lose anyway um and I think it would look more amusing whereas the other one would look very horrific very good Rob it's been honestly such a pleasure speaking to you and I know you're so busy today so I'm really really grateful it's been insightful fascinating and just super super useful I think for people listening so thank you so so much awesome well thanks for having me Ben and you know love what you guys do at 42 courses so it's great to be a part of this and um you know appreciate you putting the spotlight on mental health and well-being too I really really like Rob cut from a diamond to indulge in more Rob go to formscore.today that's f-o-r-m-score.today where you can also download the app for the inside out leaderboard go to insideout.org that's inside-out.org and for Rob's keynote at Nudgestock in YouTube just search for Nudgestock 2021 live stream and you can find Rob in the description timestamps for more well-being come and have a look at 42courses.com for the happy course with Mike Viking from the Happiness Research Institute in Denmark and coming soon the even happier course with Mr Viking too thank you so much for listening I hope you enjoyed it be kind to yourself be kind to others and if aliens land anytime soon send out a smile to them too until next time take care