 Many injurians are still tweeting despite the suspension of the microboggan site by the federal government. People have found a way around the government's action by using virtual private networks or VPNs, which allow them to bypass local networks. But that doesn't mean the country isn't bleeding. Netblocks, which tracks internet governance, estimates that Nigeria could be losing 2 billion Naira every day. Twitter remains short. Now, a senior lecturer of law and technology at the School of Law in Swansea University in Nenna, Ifanya Jufo is joining us to analyze the suspension. Good morning, Dr. Nenna. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Yes, this conversation regarding the Twitter ban is a very big one. You know, lots of angles, lots of sites to the story. The legal angle and the VPN issue, the OTTPS and, you know, just all of this, the firewalls. But let's begin with, you know, the ban on Twitter, the suspension on Twitter. Many Nigerians are saying this is illegal. This is an infringement on our rights. You know, and the government from this stance are saying we're doing this to protect, you know, sanity and, you know, peace of the country. What do you think it is? Absolutely, I agree with the majority, like you said, because the usage of social media in the digital era is actually tied to the right to freedom of information. And, you know, based on international human rights instruments, you know, everyone has a right to freedom of expression. And of course, this includes the rights to seek, receive and impart information of all kinds, you know, through any media. Any media at all would include the internet by virtue of the position of the United Nations now. So based on that, blanket internet shutdowns, this sort of generic blockings and filtering of services are considered, even by the UN, to be a violation of international human rights law. So people have a right in the digital age to share information, to receive information. And you also have to realize that this discussion is not just tied to freedom of information, but also other rights that derived from the expression of that right through the use of social media platforms. So when you begin to look at things like this, you begin to consider the side of the government as well in terms of trying to protect security or ensure a secure and peaceful internet space. That is possible, but however, it is always based on necessity and proportionality, considering the overwhelming public interest. And tracing what led to this, the deletion of the Twitter of the president, it makes it all very amusing to say the least. And you would want to think that the state would actually consider the general interest of the public as a gift, something which may seem quite trivial. So absolutely very diverse conversations going on, but absolutely at the core of it is a stifling of people's fundamental right to information. Alright, let's look at the legal part of it now. There is threats by Sarah and a few others to sue the government for infringing on Andrin's right by the Twitter suspension. So what would that play out like in court, the way it stands? And at the same time, there's also news reports saying that the AGF was saying that Nigerians will be arrested for using Twitter after it has been suspended. So quickly also share your thoughts on that one. Is there any laws that have been broken if Nigerians continue to find ways to bypass this suspension and still use Twitter? Now, I'm talking about civil society organizations from time immemorial civil society organizations have always is treated action against government for infringement of human rights. They have an obligation as well to ensure the respect and promotion of human rights. Now, human rights, the difference here is just digital rights. So human rights exist online as they do offline and they should be respected in full. So yes, they do have that obligation as well. And there is no distinction being given to me in terms of just because this is being expressed on Twitter. Rights exist online as they do offline and they should be respected. In fact, digital technologies provide a means to advocate, defend and exercise human rights. And so civil society organizations can actually seek to enforce the promotion of human rights. Now, in terms of the prosecution issue, people are prosecuted when they violate laws. And as I stand here, I do not know any particular law in Nigeria that prohibits or precludes the use of social media. Now, you can prosecute illegal activities on social media that is stipulated. But then are we now criminalizing use of social media? Is there now a blanket criminalization of social media? Because if that is the case, then that means the usage of every social media platform will then be a basis for prosecuting. I mean, we can draft laws in the most draconian terms. The issue is can we enforce those laws? So there is no particular law banning use of Twitter except if there will be a move to density it. So saying that a ban is a ban going against it is illegal. Crimes or issues that have to be prosecuted and have to be clearly stipulated in a book of law or somewhere to be clear. So are we then criminalizing that what we are saying? Okay, but as it stands, you know, saying there's no law. So as it stands, there's no legal backing for the president's action. It just is a pronouncement. States can do whatever they want. They can say whatever they want. You know, like I said, the question is in terms of enforcement. Can you? Because yes, it's in terms of implementation. You know, right now it is not a law. You've made a pronouncement in bandits. What we will see then is the move to then back. Most times you make a policy or a strategy before you give it out to the public. In this case, you've said something. There is no policy in place. There is no law yet stipulated in place. You just give a blanket order to, you know, restrict. So in terms of enforcement now, many Nigerians are unable to access Twitter. I for one have not been able to access Twitter for the past few days. So let's talk about how, you know, Nigerians are finding smart ways like using VPNs to bypass that. And what the likely impacts could be? Well, use of VPNs are not generally illegal. It depends on the jurisdiction. Just a minute. Could you help us break down? What is VPN for those who do not understand? So VPNs are virtual private networks. Now what virtual private networks do is that they generally allow users to change their IP addresses. So it's kind of a tool that not only provides free and safe surfing on the Internet, but it also opens doors to restricted and blocked Internet, which you can't access in some countries. So when you change your IP address, for example, if you raise information about your location, so you could be in Nigeria, but virtually you're in Tanzania. So then content you would normally not have permission to have. You know, too, you would. So some countries, many countries actually restrict use of VPNs and mostly because they want to engage in Internet censorship and control methods. So in those countries, if you use them, now I'm not very happy saying this because, you know, I'm not on the side of the government here, but if you use VPN in those countries, then it's illegal. But then many big corporations use VPN. It allows for anonymity and anonymity on the Internet is the right. It's legal. All right. Well, there's also no laws against VPN in Nigeria yet. Yes, yes. But then the fact is VPNs can also be a basis or allow people to use Internet for illegal activities. So you're better off having people use Twitter openly than having them, you know, go to VPNs. All right. Now, let's talk about, you know, something that came up in the news over the weekend and that is the partnership with China to build, you know, some Internet firewall and create Nigeria's own Internet server, I believe. How does that work? And, you know, is that something that, you know, we should be excited about, maybe? No, absolutely not. There is a concept now increasingly, cyber organization or what you call display Internet. And you find that states are now, because actually, you know, the use of social media Internet is not tied to any geographical territory or, you know, location. So cyberspace is not generally controlled by one country, but states are now trying to control and regulate. So it's becoming a dangerous reality. Of course, if you call China, I would normally not want to call any country where you have what we call the firewall of China. So other countries are trying, it actually leads to digital authoritarianism. It's not a good thing where states want to engage in what you call information sovereignty. The effect of that is to kind of enforce tyranny in on the Internet inside. So we shouldn't really be excited about things like this because then it will curtail use of Internet. It will curtail the use of, you know, Internet for freedom of information as well. It's really not a good development. The Internet has to be open. I'm trying to find out what powers that gives the Chinese government, for example, or the North Korean government. If you have your own firewall or your own Internet server, what powers does it give you? Does it give you the ability to shut down an app or the use of an app in your country? So it depends. It could be full control, it could be partial, or it could be free for many states. It's usually free. So it depends on what you're controlling at one time, at a particular time. There have been moves, for example, Russia, a few years back, asking Facebook to domicile all data. And this is a, you know, a firm that is not there. So it depends on what is actually being controlled. You know, some regions as well do not allow some of the apps to even be used. So it actually depends on what is being sought to. I can't speak to say this is what China is doing or this is what they don't have to do, but it depends on what is actually being controlled. So different states can say, you know, we don't want the use of Facebook. There are places you can use WhatsApp, for example. Yes. Okay, so I want us to talk about how this is affecting Nigerian businesses, you know, easy e-commerce space. Because a story from the Guardian we read this morning said, $12 billion e-commerce suffers as Twitter ban cost $7.5 billion in three days. Also, the PDB here said that, you know, Nigeria has lost $4.4 billion in two days. So can you help us break down the statistics to what this might mean for, you know, the vendor on Twitter who's using Twitter to market her goods and services. So how really is this affecting us as a people? Good, absolutely. Now, you know, most times we forget that civil and political rights are also tied to social economic rights. So you find that the ripple effect of information or using social media can also mean social economic development. It can also mean access to economic benefits. It can also mean access to social benefits. So in terms of this, you know, most times when you talk about social media in the Nigerian space, all that comes to the fore is that youths, you know, are using social media as a basis for misbehavior. We bring these cultural dimensions. Young people can speak to adults in a particular way. People advertise their businesses on Twitter. You know, Twitter has become a basis for not just exchange of research, exchange of business ideas. People seek out employment on social media buying and selling. And this is an age of digital trade. This is an age where states should be engaging discussions of digital transformation. And, you know, the African Union just released a digital transformation strategy. And this is what states should be queuing to rather than looking for ways to staple social media news. Now there is a move asking young people to develop digital apps that they will be supported. We never had those thoughts until Twitter deleted a post. You know, it is just the way this whole thing comes. So the impact economically is not just to individuals but even to states because the ripple effect is that if citizens enjoy economic benefits, it also benefits the state in terms of societal development. So, yes. Yes, so still really, you know, talking about this economic, you know, the implications for the country. We're not experts right now warning that this would definitely not attract investors into the country and that is, you know, economically will suffer. What do you think about this? Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I'm sure you know about the African Free Trade Zone. We are looking for ways to encourage trade, commercialization, e-commerce, you know, digital trade with things like this. Remember, if you block Twitter in Nigeria, what of those who rely on Twitter as well to seek in part and receive information from Nigeria? So you're not just curtailing people in your jurisdiction, but also people outside of the territory. And if a state, a democratic state is seen as being authoritarian, it could scare away investors. Imagine using the internet as a basis for developing your investment and then the government can habitually just close it down. I wouldn't want to invest in such a jurisdiction. So we really have to be careful about how we make our policies. We may have ideologies or reasons or notions as to why we take, we engage in certain acts. But I think governments should sit down and think through policies. The general, the ripple effect of policies before they immediately try to enforce such policies. Well, there is a reason that they've given, and a lot of people have argued that that reason would never, you know, make a lot of sense. The reason that the Minister of Information gave for this move. But I want you to also speak with regards to National Assembly. You know, in moments like this, do you expect word from the National Assembly is there expected that there should have been, you know, some impute from them before this move was made? Absolutely. Like I said, you don't just make such blanket rules. Such rules are actually tied to laws. They are. Now, like I said, if you argue that illegal activities should be prosecuted on, so absolutely. Things like this should be debated on. You should try and seek out public policy as well. So yes, but of course we are in Nigeria and, you know, we know how things happen. Yes, the National Assembly. Okay, you are having comments from states, other states. That is to tell you the huge implication of this. Nigeria is a signatory to international governance and by practice other states will have to admonish them. But the National Assembly is quiet on this. It seems that hands are tied here. People are even as surprised as we are. So at times it will take a while for people to understand the import of what is going on before reactions will begin to happen. It was quite quick, if you remember. So I think he has not even given the National Assembly time to even discuss or debate. It has happened today. The next day, the Minister of Information and Culture had, you know, the media engagement. The next thing we heard was Twitter is being banned. Well, sadly, of course, our thoughts are with those people who would struggle this period because I know a lot of people have their businesses on Twitter. It's a full market and they make sales every day, selling food, selling clothes, selling, you know, all sorts. You know, services also. It has also become a useful, you know, crime fighting tool. If you remember also with everybody we will always point out to you, and say what would have happened if there wasn't Twitter when that incident happened. You know, she probably would have been dead now with no answers. I also would like you to speak with regards to the OTT perspective. You know, there is also cause for licensing in that regard. Share what this means and how this might affect the whole conversation. Like I mentioned earlier about cyber organization. Like I said, states are beginning to engage in this fragmented move, you know, less regulate. Ideally, because social media cuts across jurisdictions is difficult to say you want to regulate them. But of course states can say I want to do this. I must give a license. Now you are mandating an international company, you know, to have that sort of national presence. And in contemporary times that is actually not the perfect move. So like I said, the states can say whatever and decide to do that. What you find that on the face of it, you know, you could be said, you could be said that we are doing this to regulate the space to protect the space, but of course it's a guys to also keep them away. Because you know that some of the companies will not begin to come to your jurisdiction to say you have to license us. Imagine if Instagram had to seek for license. You know, Facebook, all of them. Everyone had to start seeking for license first. Just in Nigeria. So it's actually not encouraging to say the least. It's not where we are in the international scene right now in terms of discussing how to move forward for responsible state behavior in cyberspace. When you look at the norms of responsible state behavior in cyberspace, some of these things go against the tenants. You know, the broad conversation as to how states should behave even if they were seeking peace and security in the internet space. So absolutely they can say we need to license, but in effect it may be difficult like I said. And so what then happens is you extricate some of the social media platforms eventually. And you know, reacting to this, we know that Nigerian Communications Commission, NCC, ordered telecoms operators to suspend Twitter. So out of that the association of license telecommunicators operators of Nigeria said they have actually acted on this move. Well looking at the fact that we know that telecom operators like the MCN and the rest, these people generate most of their revenue from data subscription. And Twitter, which is one of, I give you one of the largest consumers of data is now saying to be off the conversation. How do you think they should be approaching this? Should they be protesting the government's move or supporting it? Well, agencies are licensed by governments and so ideally their first obligation should be to the government. So like I said, they are not, and that is why you have social media, civil society organizations are independent. It's easy for them to say, no, this can't happen. These people pay taxes to government, they are licensed by government and they find themselves in a difficult position. I've read statements by, you know, saying we understand that people have a right to information, but this is the situation we are in. So if you're subordinate, for example, I'm just giving a scenario and there's a hierarchy. You know what happens in power structures and things like that. It would have been good for people to come out and say this won't be the case. In certain jurisdictions, it will happen. I'm imagining a thing like that, maybe in UK or other parts, they would say, you know, the broadcasting organization may say, no, this is not the case. But we know how things are in different parts. All right. Well, I was just going to, you know, ask probably a final question. How do you expect that this will play out in the next few weeks? Do you think that there might be a rethink from the Nigerian government's side or will, you know, this be the start of further balkanization, like you said, and further, you know, infringement on, you know, these and the freedom of rights and the expression and all of that? Well, my opinion has been, you know, for myself. Well, I don't know what will happen tomorrow. I don't know. If you ask me from a very positive side, I would expect that the government would think about the youth, think about, you know, the joy and, you know, the fact that people express human rights on the platform. Let's think about the fact that we want to think about it internationally. We're a civilized and democratic government. Let's think about the place of Nigeria in Africa to positively influence. So I would rather go and say that the state will be, because saying, oh, they will go further into this is not even what I want to see. So I wouldn't want to say that. I would think that the state, soft peddle, rethink the policy. It is too arbitrary. Even if you think you're trying to get on a campaign of internet misinformation, you can do things appropriately. Let's think about them. Let's engage the public. Let's have adequate policies. If you want young people to engage in tech development, then fund the educational sectors. Give people access to funds. These things take time. You can't just leapfrog into those stages of development, you know, that you find in other sectors. So you would have an app like Twitter just come up so that tomorrow you can also stifle them for deleting, you know, posts in tweets or things like that. So I would think that in the next few days, the government will do what is appropriate. You know, speak to your citizens. You owe them accountability. So when people use social media as a basis to demand good governance accountability, let's not be seen as escalating. We should rather de-escalate. And you know, have roundtable discussions about this and do what is correct. So I am hoping very positive that the state will do what is right. And if we don't anyway, then I can't really say what will come out of it. Let's not run into more discordance. All right, Dr. Inna Ifaniadrufo, Nigerian lawyer and academic specializing in law and technology. Thank you very much for coming on the breakfast this morning. Hopefully our next conversation will be about, you know, technological revolutions in the country. Beautiful. Absolutely. I would love to see the nation, let's see the growth of the digital space, let's see young people being advanced through technology. That would certainly enjoy where we actually should be. Thank you so much for having me. Indeed. Have a great day. Thank you for the refreshing conversation. I totally enjoyed it. All right, short break when we come back. Other things are coming up this morning. The Jusson strike is still on. And of course, their members and representatives have said that governors have refused to endorse the bill of understanding. What does this mean and how much longer before our courts resume session? We'll be talking about that after the short break. Stay with us.