 And I think the reason we're talking about developers a lot and we're trying to focus on developers and one of my personal goals is to enable developers to use the cloud better is because they're solving the business problem, right? And so if we can give them better tools to solve those business problems, then we help those businesses, we help those teams create value for their users. Hi, this is your host of Limpartia and we are here at CubeCon in Chicago. And today we have with us once again, Elad Bin Israel, CEO and co-founder of Winkloud. Elad, it's great to have you on the show. Hey, thanks for having me, man. Since we are here at CubeCon, did you folks make any announcement at the show? Just released support for containers in Wing, which is this new programming language we're working on and container support has been something that a lot of people wanted, which I totally understand. And it was an interesting design challenge for us to find the right balance between the high level APIs that we have in Wing for developers, designed for developers and how containers are eventually being orchestrated on the cloud, which is a very low level DevOps-y activity. And so being able to actually create a high level experience for containers, giving developers the ability to use containers but not having to become DevOps experts was a really interesting challenge. And I think we have a pretty interesting experience that we managed to create. Talk a bit about Wing Simulator and how does it help developers? So Wing Simulator is a tool that you deploy, that you install in your local machine as part of your development experience, as part of your development environment, like next to your IDE. And it shows you your application as you develop it. So it's like this live view of your architecture as you build your application. And it immediately responds to any changes in your code, similarly to how you build websites and you change your code and automatically it reloads it. And so that's for your entire cloud application. And the ability to actually see those changes immediately and really changes the dynamic of developing cloud applications because you can stay in your creative flow, which is in a way our mission, right? Like I said, give developers the ability to use the cloud, make the cloud a great place to build software. In the past few years, we have been talking a lot about terminologies like DevOps, DevSecOps, platform engineering, SREs. But now the focus is shifting back on core developer experience. What are you seeing here in this space in the market? To me, again, I think it's a lot about the terminology and like how people call themselves eventually, but to me, there's a distinction between the engineers that are responsible for the problem space of the business and the engineers that are responsible for the problem space of the infrastructure. And so that's my distinction between, let's call it the people responsible for the application, the people responsible for the platform. And I think the reason we're talking about developers a lot and we're trying to focus on developers and one of my personal goals is to enable developers to use the cloud better is because they're solving the business problem, right? And so if we can give them better tools to solve those business problems, then we help those businesses, we help those teams create value for their users. And so I feel like that's the reason developers are really empowering them is very important instead of, and I feel like what happens with the existing ecosystem is that developers have been containerized, if you will. It's not in popular opinion in this conference, I think, but I think that's what we're trying to change in a way. What role does open source and open source programming languages like Winglang play in the ecosystem or to empower or enable the developer experience that you're talking about. It's a programming language designed to give developers the ability to use the cloud directly in their code. And so it combines both cloud resources and runtime code together into a single programming model. And it gives developers basically the ability to access the cloud as if they were accessing in-memory data structure, like the same way they're using dictionaries in memory, now they can use buckets and queues and containers and other cloud primitives as first-class citizens in their program. And to me, this is the first step in enabling those developers to leverage the cloud outside of the container in a way. There are so many programming languages out there. There are so many programming languages out there. There are so many open source programming languages there. How does Winglang differentiate itself from the rest? So there's a fundamental difference and there's other differences. The fundamental difference is the fact that code that written in Wing describes both your cloud infrastructure and your application code in the same language. So if you think about the current landscape, you're usually using two different tools, right? Like you're using a tool for your infrastructure and a separate tool for your application logic. And there's a lot of coupling between those two layers that becomes very manual when you have two different tools. And so by incorporating both of those into the same language, you're reducing a lot of the friction that exists today. So that's the fundamental difference. I think the other part is that the entire language and standard library is designed for cloud development. And in a way, it's a language that's tailored for the use cases of building cloud systems. And so there are a lot of little things that actually really change the ergonomics and the experience of developing cloud applications because we can actually create the right experience across the entire stack. So it starts from the programming language, the simulator, the production experience, the deployment experience. So all of those things are tailored for cloud development, which I think is eventually gonna make a big difference because it's accumulating over all these small features and capabilities. What kind of adoption are you seeing of Winglang? Pretty amazing actually, like better than I expected at this point. It's very early. It's like programming language, it's less than a year old, right? Like it's programming languages take time to mature and bake in a way. But we're starting to see this really amazing community form around the language and around the project. We have over a thousand people on our Slack already. We have over a hundred people contributing to the project. Substantial things, not just typos, but actual contributions of code into the compiler, contributions of code into our SDK. So it's very exciting to see these people coming in and really resonating with that vision and with this philosophy. But I also think that because we're really trying to change the way teams are building things on the cloud, it's a big challenge. I think it's gonna be an uphill battle to really educate people. I just heard that there was this keynote that someone would say developers don't need to understand anything. And I literally don't agree with that. I wholeheartedly don't agree with that. I think we need to give developers the right levels of abstraction and then they are empowered to actually deliver independently and be way more productive. And I think like that's our challenge. So what I'm hearing is that Wing Lang not only give developers more, so what I'm hearing is that Wing Lang not only allows developers to get more out of the cloud, but it also gives them better visibility and control. One of the things that we're doing in Wing Lang is we're decoupling the application layer and the platform layer. And by doing that, we're giving developers the ability to use the cloud in their application, but we give DevOps teams and platform teams the ability to fully control how those applications are deployed on their infrastructure. And that means that each one of those personas basically is empowered to deliver independently. Developers can use any of those cloud resources as first-class citizens and so they can use these buckets and queues and APIs and static websites and containers as first-class citizens in their code and they can test them in the simulator. But then when they go and deploy it to the cloud, platform teams can completely customize those things and decide exactly which cloud providers are using, which provisioning engines they're using, exactly the security components that they can actually codify all of their compliance and security in one place. And so the idea is to empower each one of those personas to own their part of delivering these applications to the stack, which is where we were before the cloud, if you think about it, right? Like before the cloud, developers were responsible for the application code that runs inside the machine and infrastructure teams were responsible for the machines and the data centers and the networking. And so that separation makes total sense and I think like we actually need to preserve it but the boundary between the application, what's an application and what is infrastructure, it needs to go up in a way. It needs to give developers, or sorry, go down, I don't know. It needs to move to enable developers to actually take advantage of the cloud more directly. Kubernetes complexity is very well-known and this complexity is not going to go away. It's going to become even more complicated but we have started to hear some discussions that things should be easier for developer. Are you seeing any new technology that is going to make things easier for developers? So the way I see it is Kubernetes is a great production tool. It's an amazing technology for scaling your application, for making sure that they run, that they're highly available, that they're highly scalable. It's a production technology and I don't think developers need this production technology when they're building their application. That's not... And it's the same thing I'm saying about the other parts of the cloud. Like if you're thinking about S3 as a service, it's an amazing production tool. You don't need S3 when you're building your application. Like you just need an abstraction of this concept of an object store. And so being able to decouple those concerns and make sure that you actually use the right tools at the right time is in my mind key to enabling both Kubernetes and other cloud systems. So I think the complexity of Kubernetes makes sense when you're running in production. It doesn't make sense when you're developing your application and when you're testing it. And I think that the reality now is that Kubernetes is leaking out to developers and really changes the way developers actually use the develop. And that's where a lot of the frustration comes from because I don't think developers really need to care about Kubernetes. Like Kubernetes is a production tool. And I think that they'll organize itself in that sense because of that complexity, that's not gonna go away. The other way to think about it is think about traditional software, how traditional software is written. When developers are writing code in Java or in .NET, they don't need to understand the mechanics of how files are stored in the file system, right? Like that's the infrastructure side. They have an abstraction. They can say, I wanna save your file. And there's a bunch of layers below that that take care of actually saving that file. And so being able to decouple those concerns in my mind is the key to enabling each one of those layers. Thank you so much for taking time out today. Talk about doing like all the announcement that you folks made here and some great insights there. And I would love to chat with you again soon. Thank you. Thank you, man.