 Hello, together. My name is Claudia Grummanacher. I'm an interaction designer based in Zurich. Today I'm going to talk about books. Tom before mentioned different interfaces, I would say this one is one as well. Last year, I think there even was a talk about it. All the made a possibility how to make an export from HTML from Scribuz. This is kind of a pre-stage for creating an E-pop out of Scribuz. For those who don't know E-pop, it's the main format for using on E-pop readers, where you can read a novel or whatever. In this book, I think in this process, we were talking about it, a question came up. Will we continue to create conventional print products in the future? Or is print dying at some time because everybody will have devices like this and just read our books on those devices? Well, this question has been asked before. I've read it, I think first time when they had the morse thing or when they invented the telephone, when they invented the radio, every time somebody said, oh, nice, we don't need any newspapers anymore because we just can listen to it or we can see it in the television. So for the last century, I would say every 20 years, somebody said, print is dying. Well, it's not true. I think also this time it's not true. Print will not die. But we will change the way we use it, we'll change a little bit because we now have all these new nice devices. And another reason why it's not dying, it's unlike music CD or VHS cassette. An analog book is as well as the storage device as the interface to read it. So it's two things combined in one. For all the other media, we store the content somewhere and we look at it in a different way on the screen or whatever. Those two things have not to be necessarily connected. So if you see paper as a storage device, you can easily say for some type of books, it will always be and stay the best storage device because paper can add some advantage. It smells, it can be a precious object, you can hold it, you can give it as a gift. So I guess this will stay. So I think books that will stay in paper and ink that are mostly art books because those are precious objects. Then illustrated novels and print on demand will stay like this. Then books that will only have a hard drive in your device, novels. Nobody, those non-expensive novels, you throw away after you read it. It's better to keep them on a device like this. All the other stuff like non-fiction, scientific papers, graphic novels, newspaper, magazines, I think they will live on both media. So now if we make an e-book, the storage device and the interface starts splitting, this means we have to have a different way to design the book, make graphic design. For those who are not designers here, designing a book is about making rules about grids, columns, fonts, size of pictures. Then apply the content you have to those rules and start playing with the rules. You have, for normal paper, you have kind of absolute way of designing. You say, my page is this big, my text is this big, my font is this size. So you have choices of, you have absolute things like, you can see it here, 20 centimeters. So as a designer, you have absolute control over every page. For E-POPs, now it's going to be the other way around. You have relative values. You say, my text is about 75% wide of the page. And this is necessary because suddenly we don't know how big the size of the paper is. So for future tools now, I don't think that anybody like this exists yet, but we need something that would work for all those media that can be printed or read on those devices, I would say especially non-fiction, that I can make a design that works either printing or looking at the screen. And this me, I see two possibilities to do this. Either I continue designing as I did, then say export as HTML and computer just does something and then I see the result and have to adjust it, really have to adjust it a lot. Or the other way around would be I start designing in liquid layouts. That means I only give relative values. I don't know, those people who are doing websites will usually know the term liquid layouts. It has been around for a while now. So, yeah, I would say to prepare our tools for creating books for the future, we need the possibility to design in relative measurements. I don't have an answer how you would use this. There is also no project around, but there are a few possibilities I think you can guess. One of it is like why don't you leave it off and make the HTML export possible? It's a great tool, but not really for designers. Or why don't you write the HTML code yourself? Not everybody can do it. Or we could do something else, or we could start to try to include it in Scribuz. I'm done here with the presentation, but I think the discussion will start inside. But we'll need something like this.