 And happy new year, Hawaii. This is Think Tech Hawaii, and welcome to this show. This show is the state of the state of Hawaii, and I'm your host for the show, Stephanie Stoll Dalton. Today, our discussion is about beautiful hiking on Oahu, which now that the sun is out, is likely to be accessible on Oahu. And the show is also about the way hiking here on Oahu is sponsored by the Hawaiian Trail and Mountain Club, the HTMC, as it has been for over a century. Our guest is John Hall, who's been affiliated with the HTMC since he came to Hawaii decades ago. And I wanna welcome John Hall as the representative for the HTMC. Thank you. Welcome to Think Tech and this show. So I wanted to ask you how you came to get involved with the Hawaiian Trail and Mountain Club, which is now a corporation also, but how did you get involved with them when you first came to Hawaii? Can you tell us a little bit about your own experience with it? Yes, well, I grew up in Denver, and my parents were quite fascinated by the mountains there. And so I grew up being carried up into the mountains and enjoying the wilderness areas, which at that time were much wilder than they are nowadays. And so when I was offered a job here in Honolulu, I only knew one chap here. And to broaden my acquaintance, I immediately looked for any indication that there was a hiking club here. And at that time, the Turtle Mountain Club had regular nut announcements in the paper of their weekend hikes. And so I very quickly got involved with them and started hiking every Sunday with the club. Well, this club is very interesting, certainly to me and I believe to others, for its longevity. It has been in operation since its founding in 1910. And I wanted you to tell us a little bit about how the club itself became a club and who was affiliated and who was responsible for founding it. Yes, well, it goes back to 1910 when, oh, what is his name? Anyway, referred to the history of Raja Rome Baker, who was quite a fascinating character in himself. And up to 1960, he wrote a very detailed history of the club. And it started in 1910 when the territorial government sent a group of people down to Australia and New Zealand in order to confer with the tourist people there on ways to increase visitation in the South Pacific. And the delegation that went down there found that both New Zealand and Australia had made a considerable effort to develop trails and rest houses and to appeal to the people that wanted to hike and see some of the wild country in their countries. And so when they came back, they suggested to the government that we should make a similar effort here. And, oh, the guy that founded the canoe club, the old rigor canoe club in the Pacific, I don't want to forget the name of it. Sorry, Mike. Yeah, I think it's the Pacific Club. Yeah, and he also initiated the Hawaiian Trail Mound Club. And at that time, it was quite an exclusive organization. You know, the castles and the cooks and the managers and owners of the big plantations and the big merchant teal houses were all members. It was a pretty exclusive organization at that time. And they planned to develop trails in our mountains. And of course, they had the manpower to do it too because these plantation owners in the times when they did not need their extensive workforce for the plantations could send them up to the hills and say, build us a trail here and they would do it. And they'd also plan to have rest houses. They had planned to have periodic houses where there would be a bunk house for men and a bunk house for women with a little area in between where they could feed people. And then there would be a resident caretaker and his wife who would look after the places and prepare meals for the hikers while they were visiting there. And so they had quite grandiose plans about the development of hiking here. But then of course, World War I came along pretty quickly and the big leagues in town got distracted by somewhat more urgent business. And so the club essentially went dormant for a while and then was revived in the early 20s on a much more modest basis. Well, that's quite an exclusive group that came together to establish the club. Were they, and then with support services that made a big difference for establishing trails. Didn't it, how did the trails get in place? Well, as I say, they would sometimes send their crews up to build trails when the plantation had a slow period. One story of the most extensive trail that was built here was that this, I don't know if you can think of the name of this fellow, he's a very well-known early man but he, I think it was Castle, had a business trip which took him to Europe. And so he was going to be gone for several months. So he put this chap in charge of his work crew thinking they'd just finished the existing trails. And this chap, there was a woman who had a crew and she had constructed a trail from the floor of New Iwanu Valley up to what is now the New Iwanu Lookout. And so the castle wanted to extend this trail and so this chap friend of his who was in charge of his crew while he was gone had him build a trail along the side of the ridge up towards the back of Manoa Valley crossing over the ridge and cutting into the slopes high above Manoa Valley to the trail above the bridge of the next valley over. Sorry, I keep thinking Poonaloo but it's not Poonaloo, it's the next valley. Anyway, Cattle Crater is over there. And so he built a trail around to the rim of Cattle Crater and then down to the crater and along the rim and eventually down into the valley and out to the tramway. And this was quite a lengthy trail and they had built it to a high standard so that people could actually run on it much less walk. And for a long time or for a few years anyway, they had periodic races on where the people would take the tramway to the end of the line in New Anu and then walk three miles to the trailhead and up to the New Anu lookout and then follow the trail around to the Cattle Crater and down to the floor of the valley there another three miles out to the tramway in that valley and complete the circuit. And this was a trail that could be hiked in probably seven hours or so but the young bucks who wanted to race it, I think the record time was four hours which was a tremendously fast pace for covering that much distance and gaining that much altitude. Is that trail still accessible? No, no, there was a bit of a problem with it. The state became concerned that some of the landslides along the back of Manoa, I guess, were being caused by the cuts into the wall. And in addition, they thought that we might be contaminating the water supply because the rainfall that's soaked into the mountains there eventually comes out in our wells and is drunk. Later on, they discovered that it took three years for the water to soak through the mountains and reach our wells. So they decided the chance of contamination was being pretty well filtered out. There wasn't much hazard there. But in addition, there was something called helograss that seemed to be moving up into the forest along the trail and they didn't want this invasive weed to spread. So between the waters concerns and the invasion by weed, they decided to close that section of the trail. So we can still hike up to the new one to look out but there's no longer any trail that comes up to that point from Nukuanu Valley. And we did, a few years ago, we did reopen the trail that ran along the side of the ridge up towards Pukunuhua Nui, but the Manoa section is long gone. And so we have to, Pololo Valley, that's right over here. That's great, thank you. Yeah. But Pololo is right before that. Yeah, Kaliti's too far over, so I didn't say it. So yeah, that makes sense. Well, was that the beginning of, I mean, I feel like what you're talking about happened years, it's decades ago. And was that a contact with the state or a recognition by the state of what you were doing and did that, did from that come your interest in maintaining the network of trails system, system, the network of trails system? We would like to have reopened as much of those trails as we could. And of course, a lot of our other trails are old ditch trails that the plantations constructed to construct the ditches that came through the mountains or collected water from the streams in the mountains and bring them down to the sugarcane fields. And so there are trails that they needed to construct the ditches in the first place and then to maintain them afterwards. And we have reopened many of these trails and use them as hiking trails. That's very interesting. I would think that I was gonna ask you if any of these trails had history before that, like as Hawaiian trails, trails established by the population here before the Westerners came. So, is this? Yeah, yes, we have a number of trails and I believe according to the state law that any old Hawaiian trail is grandfathered in and that it is still open for hiking if it was a traditional trail. Unfortunately, the state has not always enforced this. See, the Dupont trail up to Mount Kapa'ala, for instance, has been closed and the, I can't think of the name of it, but the trail that goes down into Waimanalo from the, down the Hawaii Kai area is closed also. Was the Hawaii Kai trail originally Hawaiian used? Yes, yes, they use the, oh, what did they call that? It's quite a steep trail. I keep thinking these names afterwards. Alexandra Jung Ford is the name of the man I was trying to think of earlier. Ford, okay, yeah, oh, interesting. Well, yeah, that is amazing that the traditional Hawaiian movement around Oahu really did get up into those reaches of the mountains for their purposes, right? Because of the way their agriculture was organized. So is that one way, one reason those trails are there? Is that they? Oh, yes, yeah, and in many cases, it was probably more convenient for them to take a canoe and go around. But sometimes, especially if the weather was foul, they would find that going over the ridge or going over the mountains was quite more convenient, especially for the people that lived in the Andoan ways. Well, that's an interesting dimension of the experience of hiking on Oahu is, I don't know if you marked those on your website where you announced the hikes that are coming up. Do you keep track of which ones are Hawaiian or is there a particular interest in identifying the trails as originally Hawaiian? Well, one of our members, Stuart Ball, has written a book on the origin of trails. And I believe he calls attention to the ease as well as the ones that were built by the CCC during the Depression and by the army, by the military prior and during World War II, because they wanted to station coast watchers on the rim of the Coalau Mountains where soldiers would actually live in a cabin up there that they built and keep an eye on the Wynward Coast in case any invasion fleet started to move in. So they built a number of trails also. Mm-hmm. Well, I wanted to ask you to talk a little bit about the quality and features of hiking here in Hawaii, and particularly on Oahu, for those who are interested in getting out there and maybe how they compare with mainland hiking. Of course, there's all different circumstances on the mainland of course, but what about Hawaii hiking is important to know before you go, what you will be, what should you expect in Hawaii? Probably the mountains in Hawaii get a lot more rainfall than is typical on many of the mainland trails. And so I generally tell people that if you can't stand mud, you won't do much hiking in Hawaii because a lot of our trails are pretty muddy. Not all of them. And we do have a few that are like the Kite Coast Trail is generally pretty dry, but most of our trails, you have to expect some mud at least. All right, and so you mean not just muddy because of the weather conditions we're having now, it's just heavy duty rain for several days. Oh yes, yes, especially muddy, you know. But even without the rainy season factor, they can still be very muddy. Yes, yes, especially the higher you get. Well, the rain generally comes down on the Lindbergh side, but a lot of it blows over the Kota Laos. And so the upper part of the Kota Laos often are pretty wet also. All right, well, given that, what should you wear? If you're taking a hike for the first time, well, do you all recommend the outfit a person should wear or the kind of shoes they should have? What do you recommend for footwear, given that it's easy to go down to this mud and other sticky situations? I like boots that are at least ankle highs. Some people do wear tennis shoes and that's all right, but there are many places where the mud will get over the tops of tennis shoes. So you have to be willing to, I expect Hawaiian red mud dyed socks if you're going to use them. I prefer at least ankle high boots and I always wear gaiters also. Well, gaiters are kind of little sleeves that fit over your boots and come down fairly low. And I just wear the low ones that come up above your ankles and I can tie in place there, but a lot of people like knee-high gaiters, especially if they wear your shorts because this protects them against the aloe and the scratchy things that we often have along our trails too. So this is one place slippers are not very useful, right? In Hawaii, everybody. We do see people on slippers, but we also see slippers stuck in the mud occasionally that have just been abandoned there. Well, well, that sounds like it adds a bit of a danger to the hiking situation. If you're not well shod or don't have the right kind of, or don't have a boot and have something less durable than that, but what are the other dangers that are out there for hikers in Hawaii? Are there any? Well, many of our trails do have exposed tree roots. The more popular trails that have been eroded for a while will have tree roots and true roots when they're wet, which they often are, can be very slippery. And you can trip on them, you can slip on them. There are often logs down or branches down across the trail that you can trip on. And some of our trails are rather narrow and are cut into the sides of quite steep slopes so that you have a wall on one side of you and a drop off on the other. And we have had people fall from these trails. We had a friend, one of my friends, Deppy, slipped off, I believe it was the Waimano trail, a few, well, I guess it's a couple of years ago now, and tumbled down about 200 feet. Not a share drop, fortunately, because she was more or less slipping down on an extremely steep slope. But it was a bad enough fall that she broke an arm and had some other injuries, I think, and was off hiking for a few months, at least. So there are hazards. We have had two people killed in falls during the history of the club, although not the 60 years or so that I've been hiking with the club. So that's a fairly safe record, given how long you've been, the club has sponsored hiking to have just two fatalities. But what happened when the woman slipped down that steep poly? So then she went down there and finally stopped. What did you, what happens? What do you have? She reached the valley bottom, and fortunately, there were a couple of hunters down there who saw her fall. And so they were the first ones to reach her, and I believe they probably called for rescue. Nowadays, we're fortunate enough to have cell phones and such things so we can contact people rapidly. And then, of course, Debbie wasn't alone on that hike. And so the other members retreated until they found a place where they could safely descend and come down to her and stay with her until a rescue was affected. Well, the few hikes I've been on with the club, I was very, I felt secure or a little safer because you had what you all call the sweep, or maybe that's a hiking term, the sweep was as well as the leader. So, I mean, all the fast guys could go their pace, but then those of us who were not fast to say the least had this person in the back so that in case there was a development and that was feeling very secure. Did you all generate that protocol or is that general hiking? I think that's been a tradition with the club for a long time. And certainly when I lead smaller groups on hikes, we always try to designate one person as a sweep or I have an experienced friend who volunteers to be a sweep to keep an eye on the less experienced people. Yeah, very good. Then going on about the dangers, tell me about the vegetational, the herbal or maybe some insect. Are there any dangers in the forest matter? I mean, what do people encounter difficulties there with insects or plants, poisonous plants or anything like that? Is that something that- We don't have anything in the way of poison ivy or poison poke that you need to watch out for. And most native Hawaiian plants do not have any thorns. We do have some introduced plants that are pretty prickly and can be a real hazard. But they're not yet very common. There's some trails where you may encounter them, but they're not one of the more common hazards. Some people are worried about running into a pig, but the pigs in general are hunted enough that they are much more likely to run long before we get to them than otherwise. I've only been approached by a pig once, and that was a young pig that was being chased by hunters, came barreling over the top of a ridge and swallowed me and decided to barrel off the side of the ridge and go down the steep slope rather than staying on the trail because the dogs were after him. So the dogs themselves are sometimes a hazard. I've never had any problems with them. I find most of the hunters are quite agreeable people and I can get along with them quite well and the dogs are well-behaved, but some people have had problems, especially if they have a dog of their own. And also are those hunters using guns? Oh, yes. Oh, wow, okay. Well, you anticipated my question on the pigs because those are things that people say are dangerous and that you can encounter, and there are lots of them up still in Hawaii up in those trails. So that was kind of good news about the pigs, but the dogs and the hunters with the guns. So there's much regulation of the state for that kind of activity. I think the hunters are well aware that they should not fire guns towards the trail or, I mean, they use the trail to get into a country that is more remote, that there's not being hiked because of course the pigs, as I say, tend to run away from the hikers and so a well-used trail is not likely to have many pigs along yet. As far as the danger around pigs, I've, in the 60 years or so that I've been hiking here, I've only heard of two cases in which pigs were aggressive. One of these tried to attack Dick Davis on a trail. I think that was in Wano Lua Valley. And Dick was a very dab hand with the wilderness and I always carried a machete and any pig that would get too close with Dick with a machete in his hands was a pretty foolish pig. And I think this one realized that this was a big mistake rather quickly hand-backed off. And then the trustees who were at Wano Lua got the one where my other friends who's a hunter to come in and get that boar out of the valley, turn him into a Kalua pig instead. Yes, yes, I like the Kalua pig. Well, by the way, briefly, how big are these pigs if they do appear? You said you encountered a baby, but they can get pretty big, can't they? They can get to a pretty good size. The ones that I've seen the hunters log out, I think have been mainly 40, 50 pound pigs. I've seen one that I think was 300 pounds, but that was in a very remote area of Molokai that was never hunted. And she obviously was not at all accustomed to people. She kind of stalked out of the mist and looked at us as if it was trying to decide whether we were of any concern in her scheme of things and decided who we were of no interest, whatever and stalked back into the mist. Very good. Well, tell us anything more you wanna say to present the club, the webpage, if Eric can put that webpage up before we sign off here so people know where to go to get, to follow up on any of these topics that we've been discussing. But is there anything you'd like to say about membership or it says on the website that you've got about 500 members. I know they all don't show up for every hike, but you're always interested in new, in recruiting, yeah? So is there something? Well, we do have a clubhouse too. In fact, they have two lots in Waimanalo with the clubhouse on one of them. And we often will have public parties there and slide shows and various other events that many of our members are quite interested in. And to join the club, you would need to go on at least three hikes during a year. And then you are eligible to apply for membership. And it's almost always accepted. We very rarely turned anybody around down. So yeah, we're certainly welcome to have anybody join. We're always happy to have you. All right, well, hopefully we haven't scared anybody to death, but your record is very good. The club's very safe and well appreciated by the work you do for the state clearing the trails and helping out to keep them walkable, if not runnable. But I really thank you for coming on the state of the state, John Hall, from the Hawaiian Trail and Mountain Club and to let everybody know that you're out there and active. Even though we've just had the rain, your website will announce that the new trails to hike soon again when the ground dries out. And this show is the state of the state of Hawaii and it's on Think Tech. So Aloha everyone for your time and attention and have a happy new year.