 Hi, I'm Lisa Savage. Welcome to Pathways to Prague. You're Portland City Councilor's Roberta Rodriguez and Victoria Pelletier. We're going to talk about municipal happenings this past month and there have been a lot of them. Not all weather related, but gosh, aren't we having a lot of weather that probably makes your job a lot harder. Can we talk about the resolution for ceasefire and Gaza first? Would that be okay? Yeah. That's been weighing so heavily on me, the genocide unfolding. Can you talk a little bit about the process? I know Councilor Paiseli brought the resolution to you all. What was the process that went on? Do you want to start? I'll start real quick. I guess foundationally, right? Resolutions are a vehicle that the council has available to them to express their position on an issue where we're probably not going to have an actionable item on our agenda so often if there's something on the ballot and we want to speak on it, that's the way that we do it. We've used it in many different ways. Councilor Ali brought up this resolution calling for a ceasefire and also for a release of the hostages. Since I've been in the council, the one resolution that has gotten the most people to show up and to provide public comment for it and to advocate for us to pass it. I think it's interesting because often for these resolutions when they show up, like I said, they're not action items. They feel almost like inconsequential. But this one really felt like the community got behind and it really had a really positive impact on it. And I think obviously what we're asking for it and what we're asking all of our leaders to call upon the Biden administration to get behind a ceasefire resolution, I think that it's powerful. And I think it was really meaningful. I'm proud that Councilor Ali did that and that we had the opportunity to go for it and again for the community showing up like the way they did. That was powerful. Yeah, it was a really powerful night. We had a lot of public comment, which was great overwhelmingly supportive, but even prior to the meeting we were getting a ton of emails of support of people asking us to support the resolution. So I'm glad that we got to vote on it. I think there are only a handful of cities across the country that have actually gone forward with passing something that is calling for a ceasefire. And I read that I'm almost positive Portland is the only city in Maine right now that has put forward a resolution. And I don't know about New England, but I know that it's like a very, very small amount of city councils that have put forth something. So it was good to be a part of that. And I also think for some people that were sending us emails, we had minimal comments, but some people were like, oh, like what does Portland have to do with this and like why get involved? And I was glad that I was able to share how important our role is actually in conversations like this, especially if they are not Portland centered because people who come to city council were the closest to them in terms of elected officials. I think your city councils and your town councils, we are kind of the first tier of government and so we're the closest to the constituents. And I think they were really asking for us to do something and to really be able to advocate to our state and federal delegation. So I feel like it was the least that we could do as Maine's largest city to actually put forth a resolution and support it and it was unanimously supported, which felt really good. And it was also nice. I mean, I know technically people are not allowed to get excited in chambers, but after it passed, people were clapping and cheering and they were very happy. And I think it was just a really nice moment of community. And again, I think us aligning ourselves with our goals of racial equity and being able to speak on what was happening and saying like, again, this is a way that we can take a stand. There's no action, as you said, behind it. But I think it's still meant a great deal to individuals in and out of Portland to just see that we did pass a resolution that we do stand with the oppressed and with Palestine. I was a little surprised that it was unanimous. Would I be right in thinking that there were a couple of amendments offered that changed the original wording? Can you walk me through that a little bit? Yeah, the amendments were... I think one was to write the release of hostages in the actual resolution because I think originally original version didn't have releasing of hostages. And then there was a second one, but I don't remember what it was. It was just a quick change in a sentence, I think. That was the substantive change, was the adding the release of the... But was there any mention of releasing the tens of thousands of Palestinian prisoners that are being held that are basically the root cause of why Hamas took hostages, saying, we want to trade you? Yeah. That didn't make it into the resolution? No, that was not understood. And part of the reason why adding the release of the hostages was not in the original one. It's because of the endless amount of arguments that would then need to be addressed. And so I think there was some sort of compromise to add that sentence to it or to add that part to it. But understanding that it's not an all-inclusive call for justice, that there's still a lot of things that are unanswered, a lot of injustices that are taking place. But to pass the resolution, Councilor Ali felt that adding that amendment was important. Yeah, the main coalition for Palestine has been really growing and active. And I've joined it, but there's a lot of momentum there. I think tonight people are getting on a bus at midnight to go to Washington, D.C. for the big march tomorrow. Oh, really? Yeah. And so it's been interesting, you know, of course, to get a unanimous vote is, you know, that surprised me. But some of the people in the coalition were like, it's not a Palestinian resolution. But, you know, it's impossible to do it perfectly. One of the things that I've really been realizing from being in this relationship that we have doing the show together for almost two years now is what an important function of the City Council it is to allow the public to express their will. You know, your meetings, sometimes they go until, gosh, way, way into the wee hours of the morning sometimes. But there really isn't another mechanism like what else is. There are letters to the editor. You know, if you happen to see us on the street, we might interview you. So it's actually a pretty important function of City Council. And I'm sure there must be meetings where you're sitting there thinking, oh my God. We've heard the same, you know, I made people say the same thing over and over a lot. Yeah, well, I think, I mean, it's so interesting because the longest period of time we had public comment, I think, was Order 68, and it was four hours of public comment. And so I think with the pro, with the Palestinian resolution, I don't know, it was maybe an hour and a half. I don't know, I don't really remember, but it was significant. But even, I don't know, it's something about being in person and even though it seems like everybody is maybe saying something similar, I think everyone comes with different energy. Everybody comes with a different story. And so it actually is really easy, at least for me to stay really engaged with what people are saying. One, because I think it is our duty to, you know, pay people respect when they're coming to the meeting and they're sharing. They're waiting to give comment sometimes for hours. I really want to make sure because I've been to meetings before where they're not the, you know, former counselors and former elected officials haven't been, yeah, like just haven't been, you know, paying respect and haven't been like, thank you for coming in and trying to look and make eye contact. It definitely is challenging at times when you do have to endure and can kind of sit there for hours, but I think that's the least that we can do as elected officials. And I think for, especially for the resolution, it was hard because everybody was really emotional and hearing, of course, the horrific things that have been happening to Palestinians. It was a really emotionally charged meeting, but it was also really necessary for us to hear that. I didn't want us to, I didn't want any sugarcoating on the realities of what was happening. And so people were there and they were sharing extremely graphic stories and that was the, that's the reality of what's happening. So I think, again, as individuals that are super privileged to be in that room and are not, you know, currently in the midst of a genocide, I think it was really important for us to make sure that we were hearing everybody, allow them to share. And even, you know, I know there was some challenges with people getting emotional and kind of like speaking and cheering or booing or whatever. And even that is really, it's hard because you're in a space and you're, you have emotions and especially with such a significant topic, you know, I definitely was hoping that we, there were a couple of times we paused and I wasn't sure if we were going to go forward or not because I know Mayor Dian was getting, getting a little bit upset at people speaking and just kind of like, you know, sharing their feelings via sharing, booing whatever. But I think in those moments, I think we need to be as lenient as possible and understand that people are coming in and they're, you know, they're coming in to share their stories and they're coming in to share their experiences. And so I think we can respect that and also understand that it's going to be an emotional time in there, you know. That night was, it was really interesting because it, we did have significant amount of public comment, but it wasn't the longest that we've always had, that we've ever had. But it was so, the energy was so heightened that night that it, I was engaged and I was listening to all the public comments and it was like, I mean, I don't want to say it was tiring, but I did feel at the end of the night, I leaned over to Councilor Ferdinand and I say like, wow, it's only 7.30. I feel like we've been here for much longer than that because it felt intense. You know, public comment, I've been, I would say fortunate to have been part of, probably over the last several years some of the longest meetings that we've had. So the reopening of the schools after the shutdown of the pandemics, when we were deciding our health and safety protocols, those meetings went on well past one, two in the morning also. And at one point we ended up having to stop a meeting and start over the next day. So we're talking school board now. School board, yeah. And then when we had the SRO removal from the schools, that was also a very long meeting because of public comment. And then Order 68 to stop the camping policy. Obviously, you know, a couple of meetings, that was a very, so I've been part of, I think some of the largest showings of public comments. So you're kind of a controversy magnetist. You know what? If there's something that I'm going to take away from my ears in public, it is those moments. But to your point, public comment, in those instances where it's been like literally hours of people speaking, that's when I've been the most engaged. I mean, I was chair of the board during the other two. So I was literally the one that was in charge of introducing people and getting them out of the queue. And then Order 68, I and Councillor Tavaro, Councillor Tavaro and myself, introduced it. So I felt like there's duty. Like I have to listen to everybody. And there were a lot of people that were opposed to it, but especially those people. And I've learned to really appreciate it. I've learned to appreciate that people show up for the issues that they care for. And there isn't any one global issue that's going to get them all out there. So over the span of like, you know, some eight years that I've been around doing this, I've seen different people show up for different things. And I think it's always been really special. Is this an appropriate time to reflect on the change of not taking Zoom comments anymore? Oh, yeah. Because obviously that was a whole different structure with its own set of problems. And have you now had two meetings or three meetings? Yeah. We've had several since we stopped taking Zoom comments, I think, in the end of summertime. Yeah, around October. Excuse me. So it's been several meetings now of having them in person. And, you know, there is always kind of a double-edged sword to it because, of course, people want to be able to cook dinner or take care of their children or even be at work but engage in the meeting and be able to call in. So that was the great part about Zoom was that, you know, if the meeting is 7, 8, 9 o'clock and you can't make it to City Hall, you can call in and still make your voice heard. But, I mean, we, you know, we were getting, it was horrible. And it was, we couldn't endure it anymore. I couldn't endure it anymore. So I think now that we are only having meetings where you can give public comment in person, people are showing up pretty significantly, which is, I think, really good. Because I think for a while, coming into City Hall, we were getting the same group of individuals that are coming into every meeting and they still are. But I think now we are seeing a wider range of people coming in because they know that that's the only option is to give public comment in person. It's not like Portland's huge geographically, so people don't have to come super, super far. Right. It's the parking, really. I mean, how long did you drive around tonight? Oh, yeah. Yeah, a long time. And I think, like, I love when we have a meeting and there's a bunch of people in there. Because I'm like, okay, we're getting into something. The energy. Yeah, there's energy and, you know, it's not four people. It's packed on the bottom and on the top. And I actually really love that because it shows everybody is here. It's Monday night and everybody's really engaged. And I think that that says something about getting involved in local politics. And I've always loved that. So whether it's good or bad or I get my way or I don't, I love seeing a packed council chamber. I think it looks really good. I agree. It was interesting to me because, again, in the coalition, the main coalition for Palestine, there was a little bit of, first they said, oh, you can Zoom comment. And then somebody said, no, you can't. They don't take Zoom comments anymore. Well, why not? That's ableist. And somebody said, well, it is, but they were, you know, they were getting Zoom bombed like constantly. And so then people were like, okay, okay, we understand that, but it's a trade-off. It is. Yeah. It's tough. It's like, you know, do we want to, because we were hearing horrific racial slurs. But then it's also like, we want people to be able to give their comment and not have to come in. So I don't know if we'll revisit it or not. I assume we will probably talk about it because we have a new council, you know, some new members. I'm sure we'll talk about it again and just see what works and what doesn't. But I think for right now, we haven't really gotten anyone saying you need to go back to having it only on, or you need to go back to having it hybrid. We haven't really gotten that feedback very much. Yeah. I don't think, yeah. I don't think I've heard that either. Yeah. I mean, to be very honest, I'm kind of torn, but I think I'm much more open to us going back to allowing remote participation. I do think that we need to put in place some systems that maybe help to mitigate some of the hate speech that we were being confronted with and perhaps screening the calls. You can tell, I mean, we know from the moment that they introduced themselves, you can tell whether there's a clown behind the microphone or like an actual resident. And so screening them. Can you tell me your name and your resident and we'll put you in the queue. And that can probably help to mitigate some of that. But I do think that it's a valuable tool for people to contact us. My wife and neighbor, when they watch the meetings, they're like with their headphones on so they're doing stuff around the house. They're like running errands and they're like being able to multitask. You can't sit in a council meeting and watch us do it and cook dinner for your family. Right. That's just a summary. So having the ability to access remote public comment, I think it's really important. So if there's a way that we can get there, I would like us to explore it. Okay. That's good to know. Well, no show would be complete without us talking about our unhoused neighbors and friends. Obviously, there was a big sweep since we've had our last meeting of the Harbor View and also the... Douglas Field. Douglas Field encampments. And what do you want to share about, you know, I know that the council didn't want to have sweeps at all and they didn't want to have sweeps in winter, but lo and behold, we've had a sweep. I saw a TV segment. I don't know how accurate it was. Just recently, last couple of days, showing the new shelter and saying like, gee, they had somebody from Preble Street saying, you know, that I think everybody's in shelter today. I mean, you can only say it for a day. But in some sense, it seems that perhaps in conjunction with the weather, that it was effective in getting people into a safer roof over their head, not going to freeze to death situation. How are you guys feeling about this most recent sweep or sweeps? I should say it was really two locations, right? Yeah. I mean, it's... I was glad that we postponed it even a little because I got feedback directly from outreach workers and individuals working at Preble Street that even, you know, a couple extra days actually really helped them get more individuals into shelter. So I think, you know, I was glad that we were able to postpone it. I'm obviously, you know, Councillor Travile and I wrote an op-ed about how we feel about encampment sweeps. And I think it's, you know, I'm really looking forward to us doing work in health and human services and public safety to really address a lot of the barriers that we're still getting feedback on that exists at the HSC. I think I'm just like ready. I really want people... I want us to treat the unhoused like people and it's really hard because I think we have a ton of feedback where we are treating them like animals, essentially, and saying like just sweep them right into the shelter. You've seen that that doesn't work. It hasn't worked since May. Yes, it's getting colder. So now we are seeing more individuals who have no other options going into the shelter. But it's been really, it's been a frustrating kind of back and forth and we've been talking about this now for a while on the ultimate result of sweeping encampments which I still don't think results in mass movement to shelter. We've seen that it doesn't result in mass movement shelter. If it is absolutely freezing out and our shelters are still empty then we have a significant issue. There were individuals through the warming center that was open when we had that storm the other night that didn't want to go inside the warming center and instead we're setting up, and this is again something that I saw on social media that we're like setting up outside of the warming center. And advocates that were working at the warming center who have experience working with the unhoused were not forcing them to come in, checking on them, making sure they were okay and saying you don't have to come in. I think we have this assumption that people aren't traumatized by certain areas that they're not familiar with. We have assumptions that like any type of building will do for someone that's unhoused of just going right in and not realizing that a lot of people have lived experience of being unhoused. Just because they see something that is a shelter doesn't mean that it's a place where it's like, oh thank God I can't wait to go in there. I think we're looking at it from the perspective of people that aren't unhoused. And I think with the HSC specifically, I really want to make sure that we're looking at like why aren't individuals wanting to come in here and how do we make sure that we're having those conversations and making this as barrier free as possible and also understanding that we can't force people into the shelter and if we're sweeping their encampments in the hopes to force them into shelter, then we're criminalizing them for being unhoused. I don't see any other way around it. I don't know how else to talk about it. I know people are, you know, like we rewrote our op-ed, we got some op-ed responses back, which I love that's part of how it goes. I have my opinion you people have theirs, but I'm never going to criminalize anyone for being unhoused and I think that that's been a really challenging back and forth with a lot of people saying, well we're your constituents and they're breaking the law and it's, you know, we have a significant systemic issue that I think is so clear and we made our goal racial equity again second year in a row. So, you know, I'm hopeful that we can come up with better solutions rather than just thinking that we can continue to sweep and force people into a place that they don't feel comfortable or safe. I also feel like I need to say shelter isn't housing. Right. It's a short-term solution that you might keep somebody from freezing to death, but it's not housing. Right. And yeah. It's interesting that when people, when the calls go for, oh, we got to get these people in the shelters, I think that they assume that it's like that's the end result that they should stay there. I was like, no, that is like literally, like barely a means to an end to some of them. I agree with what Tori was saying. I think that when we approach homelessness with a caring and humane approach, I think that we can achieve so much more, right, because we start to deal with the humanity and I share humanity that we want community to deal with problem solving. I think that the effort that we saw our partners put in place when they had that extra time when the sweep was postponed was incredible. I got an email today from Preble Street that talked about the number of people that they were able to get housed and the outreach effort that they put out there and it's amazing. And if those people in that effort is what drives policymaking, I feel optimistic about what we can achieve. Now, your question about how I feel about the sweep, what is most frustrating to me and what I keep saying during our meetings and what I was trying to accomplish with Order 68 is that we need to understand how these decisions are made. You know, when we talk about the number of available beds in the shelter being, you know, we saw a decrease in the number of intakes of the shelter and so we thought the sweep was indicated. That means nothing to me because I don't know what the benchmark was, what was the threshold that wasn't met, how many people, I don't mean none of that stuff. It's clear to me. But the decision is still made. I feel, as a counselor, helpless because my job is to be, right, the messenger from the constituents to the manager, I'm supposed to be able to communicate back and forward. My constituents are saying this, the information that I'm getting from the staff is that, but I can't do that right now because I don't understand the process by which that sweeping policy or the encapement sweeps are taking place and I've been, I don't know how else to get this across. Now, thankfully, as a result of Order 68 failing and it got pushed over to the Health and Human Services Committee and that's where that work is going to start taking place. We had our first meeting. You guys are both on that committee. We're both on that meeting along with Councillor Furnier and Councillor Tavaro which is had our first meeting and there's some exciting work that is going to take place. But again, to me, the priority needs to be a clear understanding across all stakeholders of how the data is used to then use that policy if we're going to continue to have a policy that allows the manager to sweep encampments. So that to me is so, so important. Well, maybe I've just been making this wrong assumption that the way the decision is made is that influential constituents contact not the council necessarily but city government officials, people that work for the city, complaining. Get this encampment out of my neighborhood. We have this problem. We have that problem. We have this complaint. We have that complaint. There's always a big issue of public health because public health affects not only the people in the tents but the people in the neighborhood and so forth. And I haven't... I mean, again, it's just my assumption that there isn't really a metric. It's more like pressure builds up saying, city, you must do something and then, you know... Well, there is a percentage of the population that's going to require a different approach than the vast majority of their own house population. An approach in how you get them the proper housing situation for them. And guess what? The folks that are... Once we get the vast majority of people into a shelter, the ones that are still out there are the ones that need more help. The ones that need more time, more effort, different approaches. Maybe a different team needs to go out there. What they don't need is to be swept out to another part of town so they start over the work. They need more emphasis, more attention. And I don't understand how anyone can come to the conclusion that sweeping an encampment is the best way to help the people that are most dire in need of our resources. It's the opposite of what I think most people would conclude is indicative to help those people. I don't... That's just my sense. Well, isn't part of the controversy been that somebody... I think it was Councillor Trevoro said these are... You know, I consider the unhoused folks my constituents, too. And there was a huge outburst of, what do you mean they're your constituents? Well, of course they're your constituents. Yeah, I think that told us everything we need to know about the viewpoint that some individuals have about the unhoused is like, they're not your constituents. I'm your constituent. And the reality is, you know, we... They are all of our constituents. We want everybody in Portland to be able to have a safe place to access shelter, a safe place to... I mean, you know, the top thing would be everybody has their own place, is warm, is safe. And, you know, of course we don't want anybody outside. I think that's also such a common misconception with, like, supporting Order 68 and being anti-encampment sweeps. Everyone's like, oh, so you just want everybody outside? Of course. That was framing to make it sound like you guys wanted people. Yeah, and we can't leave them outside. Like, we need to help and we can't leave them outside. But the reality is, and we said this a million times, if every shelter we had was full, there were still going to be individuals camping outside. That's just the reality. So I think, you know, it's going to take significant time as well, and I think that that's something that I try and make sure everybody is aware of. This is, I think we're seeing now the growth of encampments in such a significant way, more than we ever have before. It's not going to be something that we're ever going to be rid of, one. And two, I think even the current encampments that we have, it's going to take time. It's going to take time for us to figure out our housing crisis in Portland. It's going to take time for our social service workers to build up relationships and trust with individuals who have been let down by the system and don't trust in any individual saying, hey, come to this shelter, come to this place, and you'll be safe. When you walk, you had very traumatic childhood. Exactly. Very, very severe trauma experienced in the past. So coercion and force and violence are not helpful to someone who's living with that kind of trauma. It's a tricky situation. So you have a meeting coming up with the committee. Do you want to talk? We have a couple minutes left. Do you want to give us a little teaser of what this thing is? Yeah. We had our meeting on Tuesday. I'm like, what day is it? We had on Tuesday. And it was great. It was our first meeting of the year of the session. Now, Counselor Rodriguez is on the committee with us, which is great. We have four counselors now. We talked about goal setting, but what we want to do, what we want to accomplish, of course, encampments and our unhoused was at the top of the list. I think Counselor Fournier is in the process of organizing another kind of listening session, similar to what we had in June, where we will be at Ocean Gateway or wherever with social service staff, city staff, people from around the area, business owners, District 5 residents, hopefully unhoused advocates as well. And then we're going to just be able to listen to feedback. My hope is that in that session, we have a lot more feedback from the unhoused community, because the first one we really didn't. It was really residents who are housed, kind of talking about how they feel about the unhoused. So I'm hopeful that this could be maybe more of an unhoused centered conversation so that we can see what we need to do better in order to help support. But I'm excited for us to really prioritize that work on top of a million other things this year. But we're looking forward to really finding ways that we can make sure that we're advocating for our unhoused and supporting the work of the encampment crisis response team and city staff as well. Yeah, I'm also excited. There's going to be a new Health and Human Services department head or director. So having that person come in again or come in and get caught up with the work and be the new leader in that department, I think it's going to be crucial how the committee operates with a new director in place. Yeah, I'm excited for the being in the committee this year. I've been trying to get in this committee for two years. I mean, it's not like I wasn't allowed to but it didn't line up for me to be in it. So finally this year, I made the choice. I actually decided to step out of sustainability and transportation, which I had been in the last few years. I said, no, I really want to follow this last year of my first term. I really want to follow the encampment and the homelessness issue more directly and that committee is what allows me to do it. So Mayor Dian was able to get me in there. Can I say one quick thing? Can we say one quick thing? Jim Levine from Homeless Voices of Justice. He's in the hospital. He was in an accident a couple of weeks ago. So he just wanted a big shout out. I hear he's doing better. Big shout out to him. Oh, we love you, Jim. Yeah, we love you, Jim, so much. And sending him all the best wishes and that he gets better best soon. Yes, he's been a very important voice in that community for many years. Well, thanks for being with us, audience at home. Thank you so much, Portland Media Center and our tech crew. Couldn't do it without you. Thank you, counselors. We are here every second Friday of the month at 7 p.m., coming to you live. You can hear us as a podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and also on YouTube. Now we livestream on YouTube, so the show is available as a recording almost immediately after we're finished. So please join us next time. We have a little surprise in store for you. And in the meantime, stay warm, stay dry, and be well.