 Thanks so much for joining us. Thank Taikawaii, Rule of Law and the New Abnormal, and the election issues that may make a difference and results that may make a difference. So we have the good fortune of having with us today Louis Zeng, partner in Dentons, one of if not the largest law firm in the world, with branches in dozens of countries. And David Louis, former attorney general for the state of Hawaii, partner at Kobayashi Sugita and Godot. And folks, we're getting to these short strokes on the midterm elections. Are they gonna make a difference in the direction this country goes or the principles and values that are important to you and to most of us? What do you think, Louise? Oh, thanks for starting me off, Chuck, but I hope that that means the rest of you, the two of you will carry the rest. But I guess I am following the midterms and the ups and downs of it with great interest because I just see that the last few years have really increased the dangers to democracy, so to speak, and the level of rhetoric and the level of bitterness and division. And I'm not sure that this election is gonna help reduce the bitterness and division. I hope it does move towards that part, but I am hopeful that there is a growing, I guess, maybe strength in the appeal of democratic party values. And I'm thinking in terms of reproductive choice and just upholding the rule of law and the knowledge of civic engagement and democracy rather than intellectual dishonesty. I'm hoping anyway that Stainer Mines will prevail on those issues I guess maybe one hopeful sign is I was in Alaska right before their election to fill the seat that had been vacated by the late congressman and Mary Peltola prevailed over Sarah Palin. And she is a democratic candidate in a red state. What I found interesting about her is that from all of her interviews and the like, she seems to be somebody who wants to bridge divides who has a history of bridging divides who had kind things to say even about working with Sarah Palin even though they disagree. And if we could get more people like that in Congress and in places of power, I think that that would be important. That's a great insight. David, how do things look to you? Hey, so I am, how shall I say this? How shall I say this? Always hopeful that democracy as we have known it in the United States for the past, let's say 30 years or maybe 50 years will prevail. But there's many forms of democracy in this world and many of them have resulted in authoritarian regimes. Russia is theoretically a democracy. Hungary is theoretically a democracy. And China is theoretically a democracy. But none of those are truly democratic countries. So the thing about elections is they come up, they're very banal, they're very sort of plain, but they have tremendous consequences, tremendous consequences. And so while we are focused on the Senate races and the governor races and things like that, some important elections are gonna occur in the down ballot offices for the elections officials, actually the secretary of states because there's a bunch of election deniers and stop the steal Trump supporters who are more than willing to throw out the actual ballots and not deal with the true facts but say that they would certify or decertify an election that went against Trump and they're up for election. And if they get elected in Arizona or any of the other states where they're on the ballot, it will be a truly a disaster. And democracy as we know it is undergoing tremendous changes. So I worry about that. I also, you know, while I appreciate that this Native American woman, Mary and I don't know how to pronounce her last name Peltola or something like that. Peltola. Even though she got elected over Sarah Palin, that was only to fill out the three or four month term. And there's gonna be another election. And I think Sarah Palin is gonna put up a better contest. So it may be a very close election and it's not at all clear that she wins in the November election because Alaska is truly a red state. And so that may happen. And last time around Sarah Palin said told her voters not to put down any second rank choices because they have ranked choice voting which was a tremendous mistake. And I don't think they're gonna make that mistake again. So we don't know really what's gonna happen there. But insights and perspectives and thanks too for bringing up the fact that democracy takes many forms. And for us here in the United States, it's long been maybe more of an aspirational goal on an ideal than something that we can comfortably say we've achieved with stability. In fact, in a number of respects, we're still short of a democracy in the electoral college as opposed to the popular vote or the presidency. And in exactly the areas that you point out David, where election control, removal of people from voting roles, restriction of access to voting by taking away mail voting, taking away absentee, voting opportunities, all those things make us less of democracy. So where do you think the turning point issues are gonna be or what direction this country takes? Particularly in the congressional elections in the midterms. Louise, any thoughts? Well, let me just add this thought. I think as David said, the congressional elections are important, but I also think that we need to pay attention to local elections as well because that's where the power is devolving for such things as reproductive rights, gun control and the like and voting rights as well. Unfortunately, the congressional side, what I've been hearing on the news is that on the Republican side, they're gonna be playing up the economy and crime and the need for strong leadership to address those issues. Of course, on the Democratic side, we've got the bigger issues of, well, not just reproductive freedom, but gun control, sort of the other side of safety. And it seems to me that, I guess to me it boils down to voters need to stay engaged, they need to vote, they need to be reading and thinking critically. And voting on all of the elections up and down ballot, David, you make a great point about the importance of even Secretary of State elections and certainly our state and local legislatures, although we don't, we are a pretty blue state. It seems to me, even here in Hawaii, we do need to be vigilant because of course there are strong views on both sides. You know, we in Hawaii live in a bubble. We're a strong blue state, which is in some ways unfortunate, I wish the Republican party here was stronger, I wish there was. And there are a number of people in the Democratic party who might be enticed to become Republicans again or might have chosen Republicans if the Republican party was more moderate, both nationally and locally. But having a two-party system or having more voices, I think is important because it gives people a choice and it allows them to express themselves. As far as what's gonna happen, in the future, I think that congressional races will shape what President Biden is able to get done. It sounds like the house is gonna flip and so then that's no longer gonna be a Democratic house. That's what I'm hearing, I don't know and maybe the Senate will, maybe the Senate won't. We have such a divided country and such divided government, it will hamstring Joe Biden from doing almost anything except taking executive action where he can take executive action. But otherwise we're gonna have continued gridlock in Congress, which is unfortunate and is a sad thing. It's certainly no way to run a country. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, where did bipartisan should go? I mean, it seems to have died off with folks like Senator Inouye and the Senator from Alaska and who's gonna bring it back? And how long is it gonna take? No, I mean, I can't wait that long. No, and that's a good point. I think the only instance of a clear effort at bipartisanship on a key issue, gun control came from Chris Murphy right after the valdez, Miss Fortunes and tragedy. And even there, the changes were extremely limited and not likely to make a large difference in the access to guns for most people. And in fact, even in Hawaii, we're seeing stronger and stronger pushes for more access to not only open carry but even concealed carry legislation. Yeah, I think that the actions of the United States Supreme Court have made this country more dangerous, have made life cheaper and have made the propensity for violence in cities and states much, much greater. The push of the Supreme Court to allow virtually unlimited gun ownership, concealed carry and open carry in any places is leading to huge numbers. I saw an article the other day just citing the huge numbers of deaths, the doubling and tripling of deaths by gun violence that have occurred in the United States since these rulings have come out. And I put that right at the feet of the Samuel Alito, John Roberts, Clarence Thomas and the others. And it's sad and it's unfortunate that that is occurring. I think we've said this before in other sessions here and even outside of the sessions but David, I feel the same as David and what I feel is just horribly ironic is that at the same time as they are loosening gun controls, they are tightening reproductive freedom. The freedoms that you're free to choose guns just not your bodily, your reproductive rights. And so there's this whole disregard of, you're forcing people to bring children into a more dangerous world. What the heck is going on there? And yes, the Republicans might talk about what we're gonna also address child care and child welfare, but where does that come in and their economically conservative views on things? It's just, yeah, it's nuts. Well, and that's a great question because unless I've missed something, which is quite possible, I haven't really seen any kind of specific concrete detailed Republican platform on any of these issues other than some that come out from Scott or Paul or others as kind of fringe positions. So where are we headed? Well, I think at least for the courts and the Supreme Court has made it very clear that they are going to roll the clock back, that they are going to cut back on federalism. They are going to hamstring the national agencies from being able to do anything in the common good and the public good and that they are going to allow state legislatures to become supreme without any how shall I say this? Without any rails on them or guidelines or fairness or basic equality of opportunity or basic equity. And so we are going backwards now. It's interesting and I was thinking about this, Chuck, because your show is the rule of law. But, you know, the rule of law doesn't, we use that as shorthand for something that's good and something that's fair and something that's equitable and that no man should be above the law and that is true, no man should be above the law. But there was a time in this country, in the deep South, when the rule of law was used as a tool of oppression against blacks. And in fact, I remember all of these stories where the Nazis came over and studied the rules of law that the state legislatures, which are now being allowed to do these kinds of things, had put into place that discriminated against blacks and took away fundamental rights from blacks, women, other people of color under the guise of the rule of law and the Nazis said, oh, that is terrific genius. We're gonna use that and we're gonna oppress and then exterminate a Jewish people. So it's not, I mean, rule of law, the way we kind of think about it is a positive thing. And if there are basic fundamental fairness values behind the rule of law, then I certainly support that. But it can be a tool of oppression and unfairness and discrimination as well and people do that. And we always have to be careful about that. And that's a great insight because what we're hearing from both of you is the need to reestablish, to support and protect the values on which democracy is able to achieve stability and growth and to be available on a more egalitarian basis on a more equitable basis, to especially even those marginalized and disempowered. And over on the other side, again, unless I'm missing something, I'm not seeing the values and principles of democracy, getting that kind of priority. In fact, in voting rights, in reproductive rights, in affirmative action and educational rights, David, you nailed it. We're going backward, fairly quick. What I find so frustrating is how the right and conservatives are misusing, co-opting the terms of racism, anti-democracy and the like, to drive their point home, which is, in my view, basically abandoning all sense of principles and value and democracy and just going for, okay, what's gonna get us to power? And I found distressing and sort of along the lines of that, the recent statement by our former Congresswoman, a leave in the Democratic Party for an independent party and accusing the Democrats of censorship and anti-democratic principles and the like, where have you been? Oh, I guess that's a whole problem, where have you been? But, and I guess as we talk about this, even though I say I am impatient for more representation of Democrats in Congress, I think we are in the long game. And in that regard, I'm thinking, for instance, of they're gonna be having to be voices that speak up, tell stories and just continue to speak up. Chuck, you had shared last week a piece by Judge, I don't know, Professor Richardson, who does such incisive commentaries on almost a daily basis, but she had cited the comments by Judge Katanji Brown Jackson in one of her first hearings on a voting rights case and how the state was in Alabama was using the 14th Amendment to say, we need to be, we can't be race conscious. It's a race blind, equality needs to be race blind. And she turned that on that head and said, well, if you're gonna look at historical constant, the historical roots of the Constitution, think about the fact that the 14th Amendment was put in place to combat discrimination against blacks and to right the wrongs that had been done against blacks. And I thought that was a point that she's probably gonna have to be making repeatedly to the originalists on the Supreme Court, but it's good to have her voice. And that's really important. And in fact, right after her teaching, Justice Solido and the others, a really important legal and historical lesson on the real origin and intent of the 14th and 15th Amendments to counter policies that were not race neutral. I mean, just the idea, I was born in Louisiana, but the idea of Alabama coming in and saying, we need to be race neutral. We can't take race into account. And David's phrase off the rails may come into play there, particularly with our former Hawaii Congressperson as well. So David and Louise, what do you see that might turn this back in a healthier, more value-based direction? That's the $64 million question. Or, and, you know, it's not clear at all, I think, as to whether or not people will come out and vote. But that's, you know, the ballot box is the way to power in this country. The Republicans have been more successful about that. And in focusing upon that, and then the Democrats have. Part of that, I think, may be the constituents that have made up the Democratic Party in the past and just the global forces that have occurred. But I still believe that it is the ballot box, which is the great equalizer. And I just, I hope that people will vote, you know, and vote in favor of values that are Democratic traditionally held values. But, you know, that doesn't always happen. Doesn't always happen. And people vote for their reasons, not my reasons. So, you know, I'm hopeful, but I'm also skeptical and pessimistic at the same time. And I keep thinking back on the theme I've mentioned before about the importance of, well, it's like the long game against, you know, it's education. It is focusing on and reviving more civics education and supporting that kind of thing. And, you know, the storytelling, the storytelling is important on, you know, that's how we kind of understand how these principles affect people in real life historically and currently. And so I think we need to look to our kids, make sure that they are socially aware. And I do get a sense that in many respects, they are way more socially aware and sensitive to social injustice than perhaps our hardened older folks who have been seen the ups and downs. But I just, you know, I think it's, you know, having courts in the community, for instance, having the Supreme Court take their oral arguments to the high schools and inspire, hopefully future generations of kids to go to law school or become legislatures and understand, you know, our historic democratic principles and what makes government run. I hope all of that will get people engaged. And in the meantime, you know, send in your darn ballot. So one of the things that I think I'm hopeful will make a difference is the January 6th committee hearings that are going on today. I don't know if that will have an impact on these midterm elections, because Donald Trump is not on the ballot and the January 6th thing is all about Donald Trump. But it's also about his supporters as well and whether or not they get elected and the people who cozy up to Donald Trump. And what's unclear is whether or not those hearings, which are a little bit of inside baseball will make a difference to the average person who votes or whether or not they're gonna vote based upon gas prices, the economy or just the culture wars that they don't like, you know, certain groups or they don't like the direction of certain things. And so they're gonna vote in a way or they're gonna vote, you know, I mean, many times popularity contests are based upon how a person looks, not what they say. I mean, we have Herschel Walker running against Ralph Warnock. And as we discussed earlier before the show, the latest interviews with Herschel Walker make him look like an idiot. But, you know, some people may vote for him because they think that he's their idiot as opposed to, you know, being somebody else's idiot. And that he can be accounted upon to vote a certain way, even if he isn't idiot. So you just don't know. Like I said, I'm hopeful, but I'm also a little pessimistic. Well, the other thing is that I'm sure all of us get like too many emails, crisis emails about you need to donate to this or that campaign. I do think it is important to put your money where your mouth is and donate. I wish they would stop sending so many. But, you know, I think that's an integral part. And I think getting our young ends to vote as well. But, you know, what started off this conversation and topic two off camera, I think was the whole issue of yes, the effect and January 6th and the instruction hearing should have impact. Will they have impact by the same token? Why is it taking so long for a criminal like Donald Trump to have consequences to his actions? That is crazy too. I mean, most of us had done half the things he did would already be prosecuted and in jail. And, you know, there's this strong part of the population that still believes in him despite everything. Although I was interested to hear in a NPR commentary yesterday, one Republican strategist saying, oh, you know, he's actually not that popular among voters. He's not helping some candidates. Well, then let's hear about that from the media. What's the media doing always focusing on him? You know, that part is frustrating too. Okay, this is just venting some of my frustrations. But I just think it goes back to people need to be critical readers and thinkers and also just look at what are the big issues facing our country in the long term and what kind of country do we wanna leave for our kids? And then in the meantime, are we educating our kids to, you know, think that critically too and to value democracy? And those are really important points because if there's major damage, exactly as you point out, to the democratic institutions, principles and values in the short term, they're not gonna be there available to us in the long term. Of course, it's gonna take a lot of work to get them back. And it'll take a long time. What do you see in the younger generations? Is there any sense of where their mentality, where their awareness, where their choices may be directed or headed? Well, I see a mixed bag, quite frankly. I think there is a tremendous cohort of younger leaders who are fearless, who are ready to step up, they're willing to give their opinions. Their opinions, unfortunately, are not always my opinions. But that's why, you know, that's democracy and that's their entitled to their opinions. And at the same time, so I mean, I think there's a tremendous amount of young people who are willing to lead, able to lead and have the gumption and spirit, determination and ambition to lead and to get involved at the same time, there's a tremendous amount of apathy. Both in younger people and in the electorate, generally. They don't see how elections affect their lives or they've given up hope. And so it's a dichotomy, both a lot of hope but then a lot of depressing factors that exist as to where we're going. And David and I may have maybe, you know, bias views because of course our kids do tend to share the views that we have in terms of what is social justice and economic justice and racial justice and the like. But I have to say that, you know, as I listen more broadly, you know, what I'm hearing is just more attention to, okay, you know, accepting more diverse people, wanting to achieve a more socially just society, actually environmental and climate change is a big issue and it should be a big issue for them because they will be living the effects of global warming. So I'm hoping that we see our kids, you know, getting more engaged, at least speaking up, and that's good. And I hope we're gonna see that on a broader basis. And on that note, we're out of time today but thanks so much. At least we'll see where youth helps take us and what kind of difference they make. Indeed. Thanks so much, David, Louise. Thanks. And everyone, join us again in two weeks, we'll be back. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. 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