 I welcome everyone to the 23rd meeting of the Justice Committee in 2014. I ask everyone to switch off mobile phones and other electronic devices as they even interfere with the broadcasting when they are silent. Apologies have been received from Alison McInnes. I will say to members that item 6 and 7 have not been withdrawn from the agenda as the order is being relayed, so we won't be dealing with those today. That's all good news, makes our meeting a little more sharp and swift. Item 1, the committee is invited to greet item 9, a dafft report and assisted suicide Scotland building private. Item 2, this is a one-off evidence session on implementation of the commission on women offenders recommendation. I welcome Michael Matheson, cabinet secretary for justice to the meeting. I also welcome Colin McConnell, chief executive of the SPS and Scottish Government officials. Andy Bruce, deputy director of community justice and Jane Muffett, community justice division. I understand, cabinet secretary, that you wish to make a brief opening statement. Thank you, convener. I'm pleased to be able to join this morning to discuss implementation of recommendations from the commission on women offenders report. Achieving better life outcomes for women who get caught up in the criminal justice system and reducing the female prison population is an important aspect of the Government's social justice agenda. As the committee will be aware, this is the third progress report since Dame Elish Angelini's report reported in April 2012. I'm pleased to say that significant progress has been made. The committee will no doubt wish to ask questions about the detail of that work. As much as we are very pleased with the progress that has been made, there is still much to be done, particularly to divert women as an early stage in their involvement with the criminal justice system and to get to an integrated approach from all the mainstream services that women need to help them to change their lives or the better and a life that involves not offending. Last week, I visited one of the one-stop shop women's centres that we have created, the Tomorrow's Women Glasgow Centre. I spent time with the multidisciplinary team and some of the women who use the centre. I was very impressed by how collaboratively the team is working and how much it is making a positive difference to the lives of some of the most vulnerable people in our community. However, looking ahead, we need to get better alignment between community justice planning and provision and wider CPP activity, which is why I announced yesterday that one of the key features of the future model for community justice will be the local strategic planning and delivery of community justice services through community planning partnerships. However, I am conscious that the committee will wish to discuss the report in more detail and I am more than happy to respond to any questions that the committee may have. We have just one friend by making a brief opening statement. I do not know if you have had sight of the Howard League report, but it is very critical of the direction that the Government is taking in replacing Contovaire with what seems to be a large prison, which is contrary to the Angi Lili commission report for a smaller specialised prison for women serving statutory to find long-term sentences and who present a significant risk. Will the minister like to comment on that? I am aware of the Howard League's view on the matter. I met with him last week to explore this and to discuss it with him in more detail. There is obviously a significant amount of planning that is being undertaken by the SPS into the development of a new women and young offenders institution in Verclide. What I intend to do is to take the opportunity to understand all of the different aspects that fear into thinking about the future shape of that facility before any final decision is made on the matter, which will include looking at the size of it and the model and approach that we are taking. I do not necessarily accept how our league's interpretation is that the proposal from the SPS goes against the commission's report. It was a hub and spoke approach that was recommended by the commission and the facility in Verclide will not only be a national facility, but it will also be a regional facility there as well, but we also have the new regional facility up in Grampian, the new prison there for women offenders. We will also have a very final stage in taking forward the plans for a new women's facility to HNP Edinburgh as well. I am very much of the view that we are taking forward the approach that was outlined by the commission around a hub and spoke approach, but the final configuration in terms of size, et cetera, is a matter that I want to take a wee bit of time just to understand all the various dynamics that feed into that before coming to any final decision on what approach we should take going forward. Yes, it certainly was a hub and spoke approach. The Angelini commission reflected the Equal Opportunities Committee, which had reported on the report that was very welcomed and well received by the Government. I think that it was a question of size, really. The hub seems to be much bigger, almost bigger than the existing Contranveille, and the spoke was supposed to be monitored more in the 218 centre and replicating that kind of facility throughout the country. I think that that is where the disparity lies. I do not think that there is a difference of view around wanting to reduce our female prisoner population. I think that our female prison population is too high. I want to see further measures that will assist us in reducing our female prison population. In Scotland, if you consider, for example, over the past 10 to 15 years, it has almost been a doubling of our female prison population. I also want to make sure that female offenders who are in prison are in an environment that is suitable for them. It is humane. It has the right type of support and conditions that help to assist them to address their offending behaviour and to prevent them from offending again in the future. It has to take place within a modern estate, and we know that Contranveille is not a suitable environment for that to take place at the present time. It is also worth keeping in mind that around 75 per cent of female offenders who receive a custodial sentence are receiving sentences that are for a short period. The primary focus of the hub and spoke is that those female offenders, for example, in the north of Scotland, with their serving a short sentence or a remand, will go to HMP Grampain. If it is in the east, it will be in HMP Edinburgh once that is established or in the west, which is where the largest amount of them will come from, will be at the Inverclyde regional facility there as well. The national facility is obviously for those who are... What happens in the south? Two of us represent border constituencies, so what about the south? They would probably be between either the west and the east unit, which would be provided. That hub and spoke approach is one that is reflective of the proposals that were outlined in the Angelini commission report. The final determination of the size of it will be based on what I think about the projections going forward, how much we believe we can achieve in terms of reducing our female prisoner population, and what I think is the best interests of meeting the on-going needs of our female prisoner population. There is no difference between the view of the Howard League and the Scottish Government about our desire to reduce the female prison population and whatever the decision is over in the Inverclyde. If it is to go, for example, with the existing proposal, that no way reflects any lack of determination in our part to see a reduction in our female prison population in Scotland. What is important is that the facility that is developed is one that is flexible enough to reflect that change as we start to see a reduction in our female prison population in years to come. I welcome the fact that this is being looked at, especially to see if the geographical placing of prisoners, which is to be welcomed near a home, actually reflects the kind of service that could be expected in a 218-type centre. Cabinet Secretary, you have said that it is important that women prisoners are in the right environment. I wonder if you could perhaps update the committee on progress with dealing with women with mental health problems. One of the areas of work that we have been taking forward, which I have been involved in from my previous ministerial responsibility, which was the ministerial group on reintegration of offenders into community, which is a very complex issue because of the multi-agency nature of it, from health through to housing through to other support services, including mental health services. One of the aspects of work that was identified there was being able to ensure that female prisoners are able to get access to the right psychological support and the right mental health services that they may require. One of the recommendations that has come from that group and through our national prisoner health network is to undertake a review of the way in which we deliver psychological therapies within the prison estate, which is now part of the NHS and how that is delivered and how we can improve on that. We expect to receive a report from the national prisoner network by the summer of next year on how we can make further improvements to how mental health services are delivered within the prison estate. At present, if there is a very serious and violent male offender, they go to car stares. Is there anywhere similar in Scotland to deal with any prisoner that might have very severe and be violent? Obviously, there are risk assessments that are undertaken in terms of the nature of the need of a particular prisoner. I will bring Colin in who can explain how the prison service managed particular women who may have complex mental health issues within our existing prison estate. For example, we just discussed the Inverclyde facility. One of the proposals from the SPS around Inverclyde is to have a facility there that can better manage female prisoners who have complex mental health conditions and may require more support and assistance than we can provide at the present time. Colin, do you want to outline a bit more in detail how we manage those types of individuals within the SPS? Thank you, cabinet secretary. Of course, you hit the nail on the head when you said particular or acute needs. Our close working relationship with the NHS is something that is developing as we move along day to day. For the most part, men or women in custody are, as far as possible, getting access to quality of care and treatment in the circumstances that you have described. That is the least equivalent to what you would find in the community. Those who are sent to custody, who present with extreme or extraordinary conditions, as you and I would probably agree, are quite unique. Whether facilities exist in every single circumstance to meet every single need, it is probably not in my bailiwick to comment on that, but what I can tell you is that we have relationships with facilities in England and Wales too, so we look at those on a national basis. We had one recent case, which was Tersha Kid at Condonville, who had experienced difficulties over a long, long time. Tersha was prepared to work with us, where others aren't, of course. It wasn't a case of looking for somewhere like a male facility at Carstairs, it was to look more widely at where the appropriate facility would be for that particular individual. As it was, Tersha went to Rampton, and that was quite appropriate. I think that there is a challenge there for us all to make sure that, as far as possible, we can address individual needs as they arise, but recognise that extreme needs are probably best addressed on a case-by-case basis, and look more broadly at where the opportunities to address those needs are. I would like to thank other people, if you have a very brief supplement. It was just a brief one to ask about NHS Lothian. I think that they had a pilot being carried out, which you were referring to last time, and I was asked about mental health generally. You thought that there might be some test carried out there that would be good to look at for women in prison, and that it would do your programme halfway through. Any feedback from that? Something that was initially piloted in Caunton Vale, mentalisation-based therapy, for those who have attachment problems, that is about interpreting your behaviour in relation to others, and perhaps touched on some of the issues that affected Tersha in her day-to-day life. There is a pilot currently on going in Edinburgh as a two-year pilot, and there are some positive indications coming out at this stage, that there is perhaps application for the mentalisation-based therapy, not just in custody but also in the community, and I think that in the discussions that we are having here in terms of integration, that is undoubtedly the way to go forward. Sorry, yes. From the community point of view, we have the Willow Centre in Edinburgh and the multidisciplinary team in Edinburgh to attend to the staff in prison. The plan is to have that transferred back out into the community too, so that the workers that are supporting individuals understand the basics of communicating with people with borderline personality disorders, and they can continue the good work that is started in the custodial environment. Report to the plan of trying to improve the way in which mental health services are delivered as the joined-up linkage between community and prison-based services. Our last mentor at existing mental health strategy was some aspects within our national mental health strategy to recognise that with their prison population. That completes its process by next year, 2015, the mental health strategy, and we are already engaged in looking at how we can build in some of the prison aspects into that whole process much more effectively to improve that linkage. That is why we have commissioned some of this work in order to review the process by the summer of next year to feed into that process. I am just going to move on. Could you give us to John Finnie, Gil, Elaine and Christian, but before I do, can I just ask the number of women using very special circumstances for whom is it where the orthodox prison is not appropriate and you have to find other facilities to deal with them? Can you give an idea of the numbers involved in that? My time in SPS is only one. That has been Tersha Kid. Tersha's history expands over a number of years, not just in custody but in the community, too. It is useful to know how often the SASTA is currently having to get into that. John Finnie, please. A question for you, Cabinet Secretary. To follow on from something that my colleague Margaret Mitchell said, it was about the recommendation that said that contravail should be replaced by a smaller specialist unit. Some of the reasons that sheriffs sent women there were they said that there was a dearth of appropriate facilities in the community for these women. There was no alternative. I am just floating the idea that is there a possibility that unless things change in the community that with all these super-duper new facilities and super-duper new arrangements and the tie-up with the NHS within the prison that it will make it more likely that a disposal will be one of a custodial nature for a woman. The first thing I would say is that I do not accept the idea that if you build a facility that has so many places in it that you will just fill it. A case example is Poment. Poment has undergone major refurbishment. It is a state-of-the-art facility that we now have for young offenders. The numbers there have actually been increasing. They have been decreasing because of a range of different measures that have been taken around alternatives to custody, et cetera, which have played an important part in contributing towards that. I do not accept that if you create facilities then Sheriff's will just fill them. What I do accept, though, and I think that the key to your question is that if you do not have a chival confidence in the alternatives that we have within the community you will then find that Sheriff's will tend to then just make a custodial sentence. It is not as simple as that, but if they do not have confidence in it and they do not have knowledge of it, a big part of the work that they have been taking forward since we have had the commission's report is to make sure that we not only improve the quality of what is delivered as alternatives and support mechanisms within the community, but that we have a greater range of them in a way that helps to reflect local needs as well. I accept an important part of the approach that we take around women offenders in order to reduce that prison population is to make sure that we have good quality, sustainable, accessible alternatives and support mechanisms within the community. That goes without saying whatsoever. What is difficult, though, is to assess that by providing X in the community will result in X of a reduction in the prison population. That is an extremely difficult thing to do and probably something that I do not think that anyone has cracked as yet. It is very difficult to measure that, and very often you find out what the impact is through experience, rather than being able to model it and what it will actually do in itself. That is part of the challenge around making a decision around Inverclyde, is that we are in a position where we are seeing improvements in the way in which alternatives and support is provided in the community. What impact will that have on the female prison population in future years? At this stage, it is still difficult to tell, but we anticipate that it will see a reduction. Until we see that reduction, it is difficult to plan on that basis. Given the lead-in time that there is to building a prison and the facilities that go with that. I fully accept that quality, standard and confidence in what is in the community is absolutely key to supporting us in working to reduce the female prison population in Scotland. That is an issue that was identified by this committee a number of years ago about chival confidence being key to making sure that we see that change in attitude. Are there any specific proposals that the cabinet secretary commensured with the welcome good facilities that will be for those who are required to be in custody to give that confidence to the bench that there are viable alternatives in the community? Because none of us want to see anyone incarcerated who can be dealt with in the community. As we have outlined in the annual report, there are a range of things that we have been taking forward. For example, the Tomorrow's Women's Glasgow project that I visited last week is a very good example of a project that is helping to make a difference in reducing the risk of women re-offending and the way in which it is joining up services in a collective way. That is a team that we have in this particular centre that is not just social work that is there. Housing is there. The police are there. The prison service has got staffs accounted there. All working in partnership to try to help to reduce re-offending among the women who are referred into the project. That is an approach that we have used. We have an Edinburgh as well, things at the Willow Centre, and there is the centre in Aberdeen as well. That is one particular model. We also have other models that are being taken forward, for example in Lanarkshire, which is around the social work criminal justice team, having a specific women's team within that that is working with women offenders to test out that particular model. We have some of our rural areas. We have an outreach approach, which is about helping to support women in their communities much more effectively to test out that particular approach because work works in Glasgow is not when you work in the highlands necessarily, so we need to test out different models as well. All of that work that we are supporting just now is to help inform what is the most effective way to help to support women much more effectively in the community and to reduce re-offending. There is a valuation being wrapped around all of these particular initiatives to assist us in understanding that much more effectively. Some of that valuation work will have next year, which will allow us to then look at what is the best way to go forward. One of the things that I am considering just now, having just come into the job, is how can we much more effectively draw that type of work together in order to share that good practice much more effectively across the sector. I have just started to develop some of my early thinking around how we might be able to achieve that, the criminal justice side, and some of my experience in the health side and how we went about it. There is a range of work that we are doing just now, different models and approaches that we are evaluating and which we will all feed into our thinking about how we can better make use of reducing re-offending and helping to support women much more effectively in the community. One final brief. Connell, you wanted to come in. On the back, some of the useful things the cabinet secretary just said. I suppose that it is to slay this dragon that the suggestion that somehow prisons, in the modern sense, are distinct and disconnected from the community. The issue for us is that the direction of travel is to increasingly integrate the facilities of custody with the wider approach that the justice community and social justice community take. My offer to the committee is the recognition that investing in the custodial estate, you have heard me say before, Scotland should not be embarrassed about having a world-class prison service, because as part of the overall community that is a fantastic facility, a series of facilities, integrated facilities for the community to have, and I think that touches on some of the issues that Mr Finnie has just raised. John Finnie. It is from the report that I presume compiled by your predecessor, cabinet secretary, but it is about the problem-solving approach in court. The phraseology suggests a measure of persuasion being required to get everyone on board. Is that going to be resolved? Can we see that rolled out further? Before I bring in Andy Bruce who has been involved in this process, it is a new way of working, which can bring its own challenges and combine with the new approaches. We have now got agreement with the sheriff principal in Aberdeen for the establishment of a problem-solving court, and we are now in the process of working through some of the practicalities of that and how that can then be taken forward in Aberdeen. I think that it is something that we would have hoped to have made a bit further progress on than we have been able to, but we have now got a position where we can pilot it and test it out with the sheriff principal in Aberdeen. I am confident that that will allow us to then look at how that model can then be used in other areas. In the same way that we have used with other specialist courts that I have developed over recent years, is that once we have tried them out and tested out that process, we can then learn from that and then be utilised in the rest of the criminal justice system. Andy, can we give you a bit more detail? You are right, it has taken a bit of persuasion to do that. That was around the need to explain to local partners what the problem-solving approach was and to build their support for it. We have done that, as the cabinet secretary said. Aberdeen Sheriff Court is going to be the target for that. We have a supportive sheriff principal, an enthusiastic sheriff who is up for that and also the partners in the community that will wrap around it. The cohort is going to be focused on, but it is likely that it will cover both women and men. Of course, with the female element of that, there is a chance to link in with the Women's Justice Centre that we funded in Aberdeen as well. What is the problem-solving approach? It is effectively freeing up the judge to rather than be the arbiter and passive in the proceedings to get down off the bench and almost join up the services around it. There are similarities to what happens around the children's hearing methodology. It is freeing up the decision problem-solving approach of the sheriff, him or herself. One of the benefits is that there is continuity, so that sheriff will be involved in the person who is before them, if it comes back again. It is very similar to the drug court. Sheriff would describe what he does in Glasgow as a problem-solving approach. The Centre for Justice Innovation is experts in its field and they are working with us in developing this approach and taking it forward on how it will be shaped. That is fine, thank you. I now move to Gil, followed by Elaine. Cabinet Secretary, in some work that I have been doing over a good number of years with regards to violence against women and children, one of the things that was quite clear to people involved in that area when it came to women engaged in prisons were prisoners, that one of the biggest problems is thinking about their family, back at home, about their children and particularly when perhaps a husband, a partner has either flown the nest or the worry is that that might happen. One of the things that the commission has suggested was using video conferencing and yet, when it comes to content veil, the chief executive of the Scottish Prisoners Services stated during the Justice Committees meeting in August 2014 that this type of personal access was not available and he went on to say that we are not currently planning to provide such access on the basis that would have to be well consulted in order to check out sensitivities and risks that may be perceived. I do believe that if we could get this right in terms of keeping families in touch or women in prison in touch with their families in a more meaningful way that it might really help that process stop people going into depression and taking drugs and all the other things that are associated with these matters and I wonder what the Government felt about that. I can say now content veil, we have the video conferencing facilities available which is there for use around access so for contact with families also for some aspects of court and legal agents we also have the facility now in HMP Grampain which is for both male and females for a similar purpose what we are doing is testing out the effectiveness the impact it can have and before we look at rolling that out further within the prison estate in Scotland there is a real lesson that the facility is now available in content veil and we have it now in HMP at Grampain and I do recognise that there are particularly when you have a national facility like content veil the children being able to contact their mother is an important aspect of it there's issues around how that's managed and how you support the child and I think that we have to understand more fully in looking at how we can make most or better at as much use as we can of video conferencing but doing so in a way that's appropriate with the right safeguards in place but Colin can explain a bit further I think it's just important to reframe your comments in terms of the general conversation we were having every prison in Scotland currently has that can link with the courts some are increasingly linking with agents and in some cases some social work locations but primarily the video conferencing facilities are there to service the courts so I think that that's the first point to make I think beyond that again if you look at our organisational review if you ever have the time or the inclination to read some of the speeches I've been making I don't think conceptually or ideologically there's any there's a cigarette paper between us in the sense that this what you're describing is an extraordinarily positive direction to be going in but I recognise that much of the technology that's already there that we could use particularly the social media related technology has with it some risks as I say, whilst the direction of travel undoubtedly is to explore how better we connect particularly women with their children but more broadly how we connect those in custody with their families on a day-to-day basis is the direction of travel but we have to do so cautiously the cabinet secretary quite rightly in answering one of Mr Finnie's questions said that the Shrevel Benches had to have confidence in the offer that's in the community well similarly I think the prison service has to ensure that parliamentarians, the Government the public can have confidence as we bring forward new approaches so I think putting it in context the direction of travel is undoubtedly as you describe it but we're doing so cautiously in order to properly explore and build up that confidence as we move forward it's in the right direction that's good, I'm pleased to hear that in a similar vein and again it's about women in prison and what causes them anxiety and another big one is the fact that the possibility of losing their house while they're in prison and losing residency is an enormous problem and I wonder what view and what the Government was doing recognising that housing is a local government matter but nevertheless I wonder if there's any work being done to try and ensure that this practice or minimise it as much as we can There's a couple of aspects here there's one about women who receive a custodial sentence and then lose their property as a result of not being there and part of the challenge is about making sure that we are making much more effective use of community-based disposals which reduces the risk of women in the first place losing their property in the way that John Finnie highlighted about the importance that we have good quality community alternative programmes in place and also to reduce re-offending so their important aspects that can help to reduce the difficulties that result from a woman losing her property The other aspect that I'm very clear about is that a person's home can often be their anchor within a local community and when we liberate someone from prison it's extremely important that we are in a position where they're able to actually go to a home their own home or someone else's home in order to re-establish themselves and reintegrate back into the community and the ministerial group on re-offending is that we've established a pilot in Perth HMP Perth in order to look at how we can much more effectively make sure that individuals who when they are liberated from prison that we've got housing provisions and needs sorted before they actually go back into the community because the danger is that if we don't have these things sorted out when people are being liberated back into the community they can very quickly just get drawn back into offending behaviour so we're doing a piece of work there in order to do that we've also commissioned some research across the country to understand more fully about housing providers their engagement, the work that they're doing and how we can better align the work of the SPS and also housing providers as well for the reintegration of offenders in order to help to support the work that we're doing to reduce re-offending rates and when I was at the tomorrow's women centre in Glasgow just last week there was a one of the full-time members of staff there is from Glasgow Housing Association and that's their job is to help to work with housing agencies in order to support these women to get housing issues addressed so it's about being much more integrated in helping to support those who go back into the community but also at the same time helping to make sure we've got the right alternatives in the community to reduce both re-offending and the need for women getting into prison for a particularly short term periods which can end up leading to a loss of their property and all of the other complications that flow from that which is why it's important we continue to take forward this work around supporting women in the community more effectively maybe I can come in later on We'll be aware that the 218 project in fact one of the first things that they did was to ensure that the women there kept their tendency which they would automatically have lost and it seems to me eternally important when looking at the stats 77% of sentences of 6 months or less and less is a good reason that it may be the wrong place for the women to return to for reasons that may be part of the problem that's why she's there that it seems that this is already happening certainly with project 218 they're already doing this so that the women didn't lose their tendency with Glasgow housing association So that's exactly the type of thing that we need to build upon for example the tomorrow's women centering Glasgow for example the housing official there was explaining is that sometimes there is good reason for a woman not to return to a particular property or to a particular area and that's something that's not always appreciated by housing officials when they just receive a referral for a particular property for someone who's coming out of prison or within a particular programme so that's the type of thing that the centres and joining up the services much more effectively can help to address in a better way and that's what we need to continue to develop moving forward I think the committee would support that can I move on to Elaine Christian, Roderick and Margaret I wanted to look a little bit at rehabilitation and through care and the process of women being able to be rehabilitated back into the community I wondered if what sort of progress was being made on that and in particular as somebody from the south where women are not the place of their incarceration is not nearly all that near their home but if there are issues in terms of supporting through care where somebody's going to a community which is quite distant from what other lessons are being learned around that is how you ensure that that sort of through care is as effective for women who are living further whose communities are further away from their place of imprisonment I think one of the aspects around this is about making sure we do more to support these particular individuals in the ways in which we've been taking forward an area of work in the series around the mentoring programme so particularly identifying those women who are serving short-term centres or on remand and helping to work with them much more effectively to try and achieve better outcomes for them so there's a range of work that we've been taking forward around mentoring and maybe Jane will be able to explain a bit more in terms of the detail of that but what we are learning from that is that the mentoring programmes that we have already been supporting which I think is supporting something in the region of around 700 women in an annual basis can be a very useful way in terms of helping to improve through care within the prison system and then back out into the community and helping to reduce reoffending behaviour helping to support the links to agencies as well is one of the important ways in which we can help to support women in particular those who may come from more remote areas but Jane can maybe explain a bit more on how the mentoring programme is operating on the ground Just to add to what the cabinet secretary has said so particularly for women who are in the south of Scotland they will either be held in Edinburgh or on the west and so there are mentors who are based in those prisons and they will start the early work with the women to understand what's going on in her life and to make connections with the agencies to try and do as much of that preparatory work as possible before liberation they will then link in with the local mentors who are in the localities so in Dumfrieshire or whatever and that a relationship will then be built between the mentor that's in prison the woman and the mentor who's going to be taking over responsibility for supporting the women when she comes back out The outreach approach that the cabinet secretary mentioned earlier is one of the four themes of the way that we're trying to support services across Scotland post Angelini means that the teams that are in the area will then know that this woman's coming back into Dumfrieshire for example know that there's a mentor involved and the mentor will be able to help the women navigate the various services and agencies that she needs to in order to get her life back together again Those mentors the local mentors from our community will go up to the prison because I think that community continuity is particularly with the anxieties of release and so on The relationship is key That's what we've learned even at this early stage and the cabinet secretary said that we're evaluating the mentoring service and all of the services that we've supported post Angelini but what we do know at this early stage is that the quality of the relationship between the woman and her mentor is absolutely crucial in terms of her likelihood of succeeding to reintegrate Her want and desire to reintegrate herself as well is also crucial in this that a mentor can help to keep her in a good positive place mentally and help her navigate the difficulties that she might come across because inevitably there may well be delays around getting a house or getting access to our children or so on and the mentor seems to be someone who is positive who can show her a different way of living her life and give her hope for the future and that seems to be working really well That's interesting The other thing obviously for some of these women and it relates to what Gil Paterson was saying about visits from families if you're somebody from my constituency it's not that easy to get public transport links they're not that good either with Inverclyde or with Edinburgh and we know that women offenders tend to get fewer visits from families anyway I know that there's some accommodation which will enable children to be able to stay overnight in Inverclyde but there seems to be less of that than there was at Cortenvale and for it in the new prison attack I think we have to be careful with the sort of how many places I think we get confused in the sense that particularly with the history of Cortenvale I think things have come and gone and been labelled in all sorts of different ways I think the point I would make about Inverclyde and you would expect me to say this wouldn't you I mean this is going to be an international exemplar of excellent practice and in terms of the future approach to relationship with those who pass from the community into custody that's almost growing and developing as each day goes by so it will be continually updated and for sure there will be excellent facilities at Inverclyde regardless of its scope or scale Inverclyde for women to spend good quality time with their children and wider family for sure In some of the Swedish prisons for low security prisoners they can have visits in the cell rather than having to go to a visiting room hasn't been any thought around that for some female prisoners having your children coming into your room to meet with you your relationship with your children and having them coming into form and waiting room again I think in the scope and scale for some that might be absolutely appropriate of course we've got to think on the other side for the children and the other family members the consequence of moving into that environment but in the round and again the direction of travel is to bring families together for all the positive reasons that we know but recognising that for some it's more appropriate than others but we want to maximise every single opportunity as it comes along Can I just add to this that Elaine Murray raised as well on her first question around through care as well one of the things that came from the ministerial working group in reintegration of offenders was the what at times can be a bit disjointed approach from different assessments for different purposes housing health etc I was a member of but now chair in my neuro is the single multi agency assessment for every prisoner whether it's short or long term in order to make sure that we have that comprehensive assessment of their needs from housing through to health etc so that their through care is much better managed and everyone has a part to play in helping to achieve that much more effectively so that joined up working are now taking forward starting to bed in which I think will help to improve the outcomes for female offenders particularly for those who also have to go back to more remote areas Can I just add one of the other recommendations from the ministerial group on offender reintegration was this whole issue of Friday Liberations which I know the committee has raised before in previous studies of through care and so on and as a result of the ministerial group's consideration of the matter there are provisions in the prisoner control of release bill which will allow a certain element of flexibility to prison governors to release up to two days early to avoid the Friday Liberations scenario particularly for people going back to remote and rural areas where it's going to be in their interest to be released early because there's a plan in place to help them reintegrate more effectively back into the community Can I just ask I'm sure this is the case that any children visiting a parent incarcerated in this case on mother it would have to be in the best interests of that child that would always be the test notwithstanding the benefits to any prisoner but it must always be the test that the welfare of the child is paramount and that that is the rule in doing that just to make it plain yes thank you because it might not be in the child's interests in some circumstances Christian Roderick Margaret Thank you very much, good morning I just had a briefing last week from the third sector from Agest in Aberdeen or doing exactly the kind of work you were talking about which is trying to work in partnership and coordinating all the services but they highlighted a lot of things one of the things particularly we were talking about as a video conferencing it seems to me that in Aberdeen video conferencing is only available for families for the male prisoners but not for the female prisoners yet one of the same thing on the court I'm seeking some reassurance we're talking having a piloting in Aberdeen but it's for male and female I just want reassurances that there's not going to have a two tier system but male will be first and male prisoners will have facilities first and when female prisoners are first like video conferences will be behind I visited HMP Grampian and it's a little bit unfair that one gender gets some facities that the other gender doesn't Yes, I'll comment on that I mean the genesis of the video link which I think you're referring to the apex centre in Aberdeen, I mean the concept is fantastic and we look to build on the lessons learned but it is important just to remind ourselves of the genesis of it in a sense from a situation came out of that great idea that we're going to build on so that was originally put in place for those people sent to custody who would otherwise have gone to Aberdeen or Peterhead but had been displaced because of the interregnum between those prisons closing and Grampian opening so essentially it was for families in that area whose relatives, partners were in Perth, Berliny all point south and that worked well but that was the genesis of it the fact is it's been kept going because it's beginning to I think give us some indications of how we might do this in the future but I think it's important to again it's these sort of dragons that crawl around I think we can slay the dragon this is not a facility that is per se for men in custody women have used it but I want to make particularly the example of Cornveil that actually touches a bit on what Elaine Murray has said because in Uncomfortable Truth women in custody tend not to get many visits that's just a harsh fact of reality and we're trying to change that but the facility at Grampian because women from the north-east are being held at Grampian the requirement or the pressure, perhaps otherwise it might have been put in place at Cornveil to connect through the apex hub that Aberdeen has significantly been diminished and I think over time that that's been available I think only two women have actually used it as a virtual visit in that sense so it does exist women in custody has not been as great as that I've meant and again that's just a fact in terms of the direction of travel we've talked about it already we want to flex those facilities as much as we can but do so in a way that's robust and sustainable and provides assurances for everyone that's engaged in the process one of the problem will be gender specific training for staff which is maybe not optim yet when my predecessor was here at committee the last time we were exploring the possibility of providing additional training for SPS staff who work with female offenders that's now been embedded in the induction programme so all SPS staff that will be working with female offenders have a two day programme which is specific around female offenders now what was initially been tested out I think was initially a one day training programme Tyler Shoof that was the case with one day and it's now a two day programme but that's now part of the induction programme that the SPS have for the staff there's also been additional training one day training programme for SPS staff in general provided around female offenders so what was an initial test to be embedded in the standard induction programme for all individuals who come into the SPS staff group and they're going to be working with female offenders if I may have a question following Gil Paterson talking about housing and the point of accommodation I'm reassured of what the committee said about the possibility of keeping a tendency for a short when we're in prison for a short period of time but what about women who are looking for social security benefits have you spoken with the UK Government to see if you could have maybe instead of having them stop maybe interrupted and making sure that upon release the prisoners will know in advance that they don't need to reapply but it will automatically start again upon release so this was an issue which we again in the ministerial group around access to welfare benefit provision and there have been concerns raised around the stopping of benefit provision part of the challenges that in my view is about reducing a number of women who are actually receiving short-term custodial sentences which raises the question is that is prison the right place in the first place anyway so that's the approach that we're trying to take to deal with that issue there has been issues about going back out into the community reintegrating back into the community to make sure that these issues are addressed much more effectively we've pursued some of this issue around the DWP but of course that's a reserved area but where we have got some powers for example around the Scottish welfare fund which provides issues around can be used for things like furniture etc crisis crisis loans is that there were some issues around how that was operating and how it could be made more effective and quicker and being able to respond to the needs of those who are being reintegrated back into the community and as a result of the work from the ministerial working group new guidance was issued around that in order to help to shape the approach that's taken in the prison around applications, how they'll be managed and how they'll be dealt with as well so that's helped to speed up that process and made it clearer around application process as well as in when it can be made in order to release that money as early as possible to help to support individuals being reintegrated back into community so we've been able to make some changes where we've got powers in order to improve the situation but some of the wider aspects are obviously out with our control changes are very welcome already the assessment is made before release I just want to mention yes they are have you written to a deputy to try to get them part of the same assessment Jane can maybe comment a bit further on this some of the aspects are that we're limited in what we can do there because it's a pan-UK based approach to it but there are in my view is that in terms of when we go back to particularly short sentences losing their house, losing their benefits all of the other chances that come with that they may have a child, the welfare aspects all come from that I think the issue for us is about helping to reduce that from happening and to prevent that from happening for individuals who shouldn't really be in prison and that prison is not the most appropriate environment for them is probably the most effective way to tackle some of these issues but Jane can maybe mention some of the wider work we're doing around welfare provision some of the other committee members will remember that Cabinet Secretary's predecessor wrote to Lord Freud immediately after the Angelini commission reported and they had a meeting and on the back of that meeting we have a small scale pilot which is operating in Caernton Vale at the minute where women do get access to benefits advice much earlier before liberation than is normally the case with the aspiration that they will get access to their money much more quickly than they currently do it is very small scale as the cabinet secretary says it is reserved policy so we are it's at the discretion of the UK Government and I don't think there are plans to expand on that pilot but they are allowing us to continue with it in Caernton Vale at the minute but what's important is how we support women when they come back out into the community so that the justice centres that the cabinet secretary has already talked about for example in Glasgow they have a benefit adviser come in and support the women to make sure that they are maximising their entitlements and claiming for everything that they can and the Scottish welfare fund as the cabinet secretary says make sure that they've got some kind of transitional money to help them get through those kind of early days when things are really tight and to help them access the kinds of support they'll need to furnish their house and so on to make sure that they've got something to come back out to Do the same problems arise in England where we don't have is exactly the same so it makes no difference this is not a Scottish issue this is a UK issue just to do the DWP really generally Roddie, please Thank you Morning I'd just like to focus if I can just on the £3 million of funding allocated to support the local criminal justice partners at present time over the 16 projects I'm not sure I fully understand in terms of the more rural projects the outreach projects how that works and do kind of women in those situations get the full ambit of support that they would do in the other projects Yes to do so for example in the Fife area the team in Fife decided that they did not want a fixed base they didn't think that that would be the best way to support women in Fife so they work out of three locations and so one day a week in each one of those locations there's a kind of full days availability for women to drop into and to have appointments for but that's followed up in the interim period with an individual and their key worker and any work that needs to be progressed will be progressed the way that we've gone about the provision across Scotland is to work with the local partners they all use the Angelina report as a reference document as seen as a really valid critical piece of writing and it informs how they shape their service provision but they've decided that they want to tailor it to how they can best meet the needs of the women and their localities the women themselves don't want to have to make the travel to come into a centre when it can be miles and miles away and of course also the local service provision is miles back where the women themselves live so the idea of the kind of outreach is that the team goes into those localities and works with the women to link them into the services, wherever they might be Thank you for that and there's an independent evaluation going to be carried out to what extent is the result to be a factor in consideration of community planning partnerships going forward in delivery of community justice Cabinet Secretary It's going to have an important part to play in helping to understand what's the most effective approach for delivering services and a big part of making sure that CPPs are able to do their job effective around the delivery of community justice programmes making sure that it's an evidence-based approach that they're utilising and that it is based upon experience that helps to inform them about what's the best approach to apply at a local level so that's what's important here is to make sure we're using an evidence-based approach that's why all of the models are being evaluated independently to identify what the pros and cons are and then to utilise that to help to support on-going work One of the things that I'm keen to explore as I mentioned in my in an earlier response is that I want to give a bit more thought as to how we can help to make sure we share that practice and experience in a much more effective way There's practitioner forums etc we have at the present time but I think there's a wider issue here and I want to just explore how we can achieve that more effectively so we are sharing and spreading good practice improvement methodologies in a way that can assist us in delivering the most effective approaches within local areas and its CPPs have got the right type of advice and support and information to make that type of informed decision In terms of evaluating the success of mentoring projects is there anything else that you can enter that equation at the present time? The valuation of the mentoring So again, we're having that independently evaluated by Ipsos Moray and we have extended the evaluation in line with the fact that we've extended the change fund for another two years because what we saw two years in was that we had early signs of effectiveness but it was clear that we wanted to give the mentoring service a longer period in which to demonstrate the impact that they were having positively The idea behind all of these evaluations is, of course, one of the committee members mentioned that the on-going provision of these services really kind of sits with local government So the idea is that the evaluations will help local government and partners in the communities identify where they want to spend their resources on an on-going basis As Angelini herself said that this could all be achieved within existing resources what we've tried to do is provide some additional money in the two years to allow people to reconfigure their services as she described to give them a bit of breathing space to do that but ultimately sustainability will come from within localities so we've allowed the kind of service provision to grow organically and to be driven by local partners' needs and desires because that's what we see as being the most sustainable way to take it forward on the long term Are you indicating to who you wanted to? Just in the context of mentoring services or outreach services and evaluation and you'll know that we are changing the role of prison officers to dovetail with the work that's going on in the community to bring that integrated approach and the pilot was run again as you've had a previous briefing on it to Greenock and that was evaluated during the middle part of this year by colleagues working out of Edinburgh University and the evaluation has been really encouraging with some real pointers of how positive practical support reaching out back into the community as people resettle can be and actually one of the real learning opportunities from this is that women are the most likely to engage in on-going mentoring services so there's a real convergence here in terms of approaches, integration and targeting the people who are most likely to benefit from it Thank you Margaret Last one I think Does the cabinet secretary support the action of child impact assessments to effectively help deal with the often very devastating effect imprisonment of a parent can have in children? What way would you see them operating? Impact assessments would look at the overall effect on children of a parent being being imprisoned and it would look at all the various effects that that can have something that's submitted to the court something that's submitted to the court in determining the type of sentence that should be imposed Is that the way you're thinking about it? It's important that we make sure that when sheriffs are making determinations they have as wide a range of information as possible to consider these issues clearly there are different factors that they have to weigh up in terms of public safety appropriate sentencing welfare and child impact should all be issues that are fed into that particular process and to make sure that they are aware of any wider issues that may come from that I think that what is important is that where issues are identified and a custodial sentence is still considered as being the most appropriate route is that there's the right support services there in order to support that particular child and to make sure their needs are being appropriately met and supported so yes, I think that they've got a role to play in helping to inform and understand matters along with all of the other factors that clearly sheriffs and judges need to take into account when they're determining a sentence for someone Just a little postscript here I think Just finally, we made mention of £3 million of the worth of funding allocated to support local criminal justice partners across Scotland if it would be possible to provide the committee with a breakdown maybe in writing but how that's been allocated to different areas That would be very useful, thank you very much that ends this evidence session I'll suspend for two minutes to allow witnesses to change over Item 3, modern slavery bill UK Parliament legislation the cabinet secretary has stayed with us with this item, I welcome to meeting the Scottish Government officials, Neil Renwick Acting director of justice and Oxley criminal law and licensing division Keith Main, saver communities division and Kevin Gibson director directorate of legal services and I invite the cabinet secretary to make a brief emphasised brief opening statement we're very pressed for time to be cabinet secretary but it's a very important issue thank you The trafficking of human beings and the use of them as commodities their profit is a heinous crime which the Scottish Government is committed to combating this is a hidden crime that does not respect border controls or national boundaries and it's crucial that we work with the UK and the Northern Irish Government to make sure that our laws take this into account the committee will be aware that a Scottish human trafficking and exploitation bill has just been introduced to parliament that bill will see the creation of a Scottish anti-human trafficking strategy enhancing support and protection for victims and includes measures to tackle human trafficking related crime through the Scottish criminal justice system a UK-wide commissioner that can operate across the board share good practice and consistency of approach in tackling this crime and supporting its victims and holding each jurisdiction to account on the same basis will complement this legislation Scottish ministers will agree the work plan of the commissioner on reports and lay these before parliament that any such report may come from the commissioner Pibles are included for the redaction of any report which might jeopardise the safety of any person in Scotland or might prejudice the investigation or prosecution of an offence under the law of Scotland Thank you very much Yes, Christian I just wanted to have a little update on what the changes are for ships and vessels being investigated What can Police Scotland can do today and what the changes will be While it stands at the present moment Police Scotland have general powers in order to investigate and detain an arrest in Scotland and that extends to adjacent waters which are 712 miles from the coastline What Scottish police officers don't have is the powers to go beyond that particular 12 mile jurisdiction and that includes waters which are within the UK but outwith Police Scotland's jurisdiction and what the new provisions will give the power to do is for Police Scotland to be able to continue to pursue that type of thing so for example it could be the Irish Sea going over into Dorlan Irish if they are pursuing a vessel or as was the case last year or 2012 there was a case where they were pursuing a vessel off the coast in Dumfries and Galloway and one off the coast in Aberdeen and the challenge with the one in the coast of Aberdeen is that it went outwith the 12 mile boundary which meant that they weren't detaining apprehendum in that particular case they had to wait for that vessel to run low on fuel and to come back into jurisdiction but with the additional powers that will give them the scope to be able to extend beyond that so it will give them that additional range to be able to extend to be able to detain individuals and to search and investigate vessels beyond the 12 mile limit at the present time and also to pursue into UK waters that are outwith Police Scotland's jurisdiction and equally for Police in England and Wales to be able to pursue into Scottish waters a vessel that they may be pursuing as well without a need for a change I'm just taking some regulations there to make sure that Scottish vessels will not be boarded more than foreign vessels you know that in waters there are vessels from different countries and we want to make sure that that vessel will be brewed so if the vessel is within Scottish jurisdiction then obviously Police Scotland will be able to stop and investigate and to search a vessel as necessary I'm imagining that there would be any particular focus on Scottish vessels more than others but it's to make sure that Police Scotland has the necessary powers to be able to pursue those types of issues given that they do cross boundaries very regularly which they can evade investigation and by providing these additional measures that allows Police Scotland to have the same legal authority and powers as their counterparts in England and Wales in being able to pursue these matters Thank you for this What is the scope to have a Scottish commissioner at one point? That was considered at the time and you'll be aware that in the last year it was estimated that there were around 10 potential cases of trafficking and exploitation identified in Scotland We suspect that that's a tip of the iceberg but it's difficult at this stage to quantify exactly how many there will potentially be and the view was that having a commissioner that could be dealing with what may be a relatively small number may actually not be advantageous whereas working with a commissioner who may be dealing with a much wider number of experience and also good practice that's been experienced from other parts of the UK would be a useful way in which to actually take this approach forward Notwithstanding that, there's a specific aspect in terms of Scottish ministers' engagement with the commissioner and their role in Scotland in terms of reporting to us being able to put forward specific work that we wish them to take forward in Scotland as well and also feeding into Parliament for any reports that they may lay in Scottish Parliament Although they're operating on a UK-wide basis they have a very specific aspect in which Scottish ministers have a direct role in directing that and shaping that but it was to make sure that we had someone who could drop on that wider experience that can help to feed into our processes to improve the work that we're taking forward around tackling human trafficking and exploitation Elaine Ford by Rodgerick There has been some criticism of the proposed remit of the anti-slavery commissioner that it might be too limited I just wondered in terms of the bill which the Scottish Government is going to be bringing forward on human exploitation and trafficking, whether some of those issues around the protection and assistance of survivors is going to be picked up in the Scottish bill One of the aspects that we have in the African and Exploitation Bill is the requirement on Scottish ministers to ensure that the needs of victims and survivors get the right type of support and assistance that they require, which goes beyond what's within the UK bill Our approach will take a slightly more ambitious approach to making sure that that happens much more effectively and as I said on Friday our view is that in the heinous nature of these particular crimes and the way in which they are hidden which in itself can also have an impact on victims being reluctant to engage with services and there have been cases in the past where individuals have been identified and then have gone missing is to make sure that we are providing the right support and assistance to those individuals who are victims and that's why we have placed a requirement in our bill for Scottish ministers to do that How are we going to do that? The requirement is placed in the bill to create a national strategy here in Scotland and a key part of that will be about making sure that we have the right support and assistance for victims There won't be any sort of conflict between the UK-wide commissioner and what we want to do up here we can make that seamless I think that we should learn from one another and obviously the UK Government are taking a particular approach but we are very much of the view that we need to make sure that victims of these types of crimes need the right type of support and assistance and that's why we have chosen to take an approach in our own bill which is about making sure that they are at the very heart of the process that we take forward and the requirement it's not just a national strategy which we can choose to do or not it's a requirement within the actual bill will ensure that we have that type of provision embedded in the practice that we take forward in Scotland Thank you I don't want to pre-empt the bureau but I think it's most likely that that bill will come to this committee in the matter for the bureau Roderick Thank you Just like to refer to the Home Office's review of the national referral mechanism for victims of human trafficking which has been fairly recently published and in the modern slavery bill the 41B provides the commissioner must encourage good practice in terms of the identification of victims of those offences the UK Government has accepted all the recommendations in this document but I take it from your letter on the human trafficking bill that the full implications of that for Scotland are not yet known I'm just really seeking some reassurance in terms of this LCM that down the path as it were there won't be an issue Well obviously we've brought forward the LCM based upon the timetable that's been set by the UK Government around the modern slavery bill and the reporting timeframe that they have set and our view at the present time is that the provisions within that bill that apply to Scotland are ones which we are supportive of as well I'm bringing officials into maybe a comment a bit further in terms of the particular report itself but what we are also keen to do is to legislation is one aspect of this there is also the wider work that we need to take forward in tackling human trafficking and that's why we have placed this requirement in ministers to bring forward a national strategy and to clearly evaluate and to maintain and review that I'm I'm of the view that with our own bill we will be in an even stronger position than the provisions that are also provided in the modern slavery bill at UK but in terms of the LCM that has been largely dictated to by the reporting and timeframe that's been set by Westminster bringing it before Parliament Neil, do you want to say a bit more about the report itself dither? I just confirm that we're due to speak to Home Office officials actually this afternoon about the NRM review and what the implications of that would be and the timescales of what they're planning to do the Home Secretary has said that she's keen to take forward a number of pilots to try and test out how the approach proposed by the NRM review how that might operate in practice and early indications are obviously that if they're going to be piloting the timescales for that will certainly extend beyond the timescale of the modern slavery bill so in terms of your question we're not expecting anything arising from the NRM to impact on that bill and therefore on the LCM but clearly we are going to work very closely with them about what the implications of the NRM because as you say that the issue of identifying victims is absolutely crucial to this whole area Thank you The LCM notes that Scottish police officers will in some circumstances require the consent of the Secretary of State can you give us some idea of what that kind of circumstance would be to proceed and do you think that's appropriate? I think that this is in relation to some issues around international law which are reserved to Westminster and some international protocols around aspects and the legal definition or the legal explanation of that can best be provided by officials but it's because there are some aspects which are reserved that would require the Secretary of State to be able to give permission My understanding is that these are likely to be exercised through delegated powers to the UK border agency in taking forward these matters but it's larger around some areas which remain reserved to Westminster These really relate to the boarding of foreign vessels and all of that is regulated by the UN convention on the law of the sea and that requires any circumstance where a foreign vessel is to be boarded to be routed through a central authority in the country whose officers propose to board that vessel The central authority for the UK is the Secretary of State because as the cabinet secretary said this is a reserved matter UK territorial waters? That's when you get out of them I understand Can I maybe also just say that provision applies equally to police officers from England and Wales and from Northern Ireland it's not a peculiarly Scottish aspect When you get out with UK territorial waters there has to be a special with international conventions about boarding ships beyond That's fine, I think that's it That concludes this evidence session I'm going to suspend for five minutes before we move on to the next item of business I have to say before that that we will have to draft our report on our next meeting on 6 January Thank you very much I move on to item 4 The legislation draft public services to perform inspection and monitoring of prisons Scotland order We had evidence on 2 December from a number of interested parties today We are taking evidence from the cabinet secretary and his officials Before the cabinet secretary moves on motion The cabinet secretary is still with us I welcome to the meeting Scottish Government officials Andy Bruce, who was here before Deputy director of the community justice system Kerry Morgan, community justice division Craig McGuffey, director of legal services Again, a very brief opening statement cabinet secretary I remind members that this is an evidence session so you can ask questions but thereafter in the next item will be a debate so officials can't take part in the debate Roderick and Christian Thank you I understand that this has been a long journey to get to where we are today and the draft order under consideration has benefited greatly from public consultation and the views previously expressed by this committee I believe that the model before you provides a system of independent monitoring which relies on volunteers as representatives of civic society and as professional, accountable and importantly, compliant with the optimal protocol to the convention against torture and other cruel, humane inhumane or degrading treatment or punishment opcat The new system will introduce consistency of practice effective leadership and governance and allow for the better integration of inspection and monitoring It will promote and raise the profile of independent monitoring and ensure that all parts of every prison are monitored on a regular basis Our priority is to ensure that this reform of independent monitoring delivers the best outcomes for prisoners safeguards at their human rights and meets our obligation under opcat and the national preventative mechanism Thank you very much Secretary John Finnie John Finnie John Finnie Cabinet Secretary witnesses have raised some concerns about the independence of the IPMs Would you like to confirm whether you are satisfied that the revised draft order is fully compliant with the requirements of opcat? Obviously, deciding on the final model that should be taken forward at the independence of the independent prison monitors and the way in which that will operate has been important That is why it has been placed with a imagine spectra of prisons for Scotland who are independent of government They are independent of the SPS They are established under royal warrant Having them placed within that particular location ensures that they are independent in their process and how they take this work forward On that basis we are of the view that it is compliant with opcat In regard to the concerns that were raised by the witnesses in regard to the independence of the IPMs Do you have any comment on that? We are confident that they are independent in terms of the role that they have that they will operate under the prisons and spectra which is independent of government The role will be for example, there are three aspects of the role so there are the inspections that they can undertake or the monitoring visits that they can undertake around a great programme with governors There is also the agreed programme which they can have with the prison monitoring co-ordinators who have an important role making sure that we are looking at all of our establishments The third aspect is the discretion of independent prison monitors to decide to undertake a monitoring visit I believe that that gives them flexibility and independence in order to undertake the role which they will be an important part of the overall way in which we run our prison system in Scotland The cabinet secretary would you like to comment on the constitution of the advisory group and clarify the process for appointments to it The important part of the advisory group is to make sure that they have a level of oversight of the way in which the monitoring system has operated My understanding is that her manager of prisons is of a view that it should be someone who is independent that shares that particular advisory group and that they should have a range of different stakeholders on it in order to help to support and inform that work I think that there has been some indication around the range of individuals or organisations that could be represented on it For example, the Scottish Human Rights Commission I understand that the inspectors of the view that he would wish to see as part of the independent advisory group John Finnie, followed by Roderick This issue has been around for quite some time and it has had quite a thrashing about and come back in various forums I think that you would agree that perception is a terribly important issue While some of us know the individuals involved for instance, I know Mr Strang, I know him heist integrity the perception of rotared visits as compared to spontaneous visits can you understand that some people might have a perception that is an element of control there that takes away what people would understand to be the purpose of visits or one of the purposes of visits to be a spot check for one to a better place As I mentioned earlier on there are three different natures and lanes in which those monitoring visits can take place What I would say is that a rotared visit is not in any way different from any other independent visit that is taking place It may be that you have less autonomy in that it has been rotared as part of the work programme It is important to make sure that we have all of our establishments being properly monitored and clearly the co-ordinators of an important role to shape that work programme to ensure that that is happening and that all aspects of the prison are also being considered but there is also the option for independent prison monitors to be able to undertake their own monitoring visits without notifications so they are in a position where they can do that in addition to it I think that we have now got a much more comprehensive way of looking at this issue which I believe is much more helpful I do understand that some people may feel as though they may argue that that limits their independence My view may limit their autonomy in some way but it does not undermine the independence of the monitoring process and it allows us to make sure that we have a much more comprehensive view of the monitoring process as well which allows us to make sure that all of our establishments and all aspects of the establishments are being effectively monitored which has not always been the case in the past I think is why it is important that we have a system which is comprehensive and that it is able to do that effectively and independently That is very reassuring To push you on the one point the perception of rotas and programmes suggests a measure of control there that some might believe would inhibit the avoidance of any doubt an authorised person can go to any prison at any time if they are concerned about an issue that is out with the programme If the independent prison monitor wishes to undertake an additional visit which is out with the rota programme then they are able to undertake that visit It can be part of the rota which has been agreed with Governors It can be part of the programme of work that has been agreed with prison monitoring co-ordinators and it can be something that they choose to do on their own for whatever reason they feel it would be appropriate for them to do so That is very reassuring that we have heard throughout the process evidence from the Scottish Human Rights Commission I think that it would be fair My summary of it is that it was a less than compelling endorsement They are not against it but they are hardly giving it a ringing endorsement Would you welcome the continued involvement in the process here and I presume that there will be some evaluation of how the new system if it is agreed will operate I think that the SHRC has an important part to play to take forward this new programme of prison monitoring and that is why I understand that Mr Strang is keen for them to be a member of the advisory board and also to have an independent chair of that advisory board in order to take that work forward I think that you have also touched upon an important aspect of it for us an appropriate point is to evaluate how things are moving forward with the new monitoring system and I have no doubt that should the advisory group feel that there are issues that need to be improved or that are not working effectively then they will be able to flag those up and address them effectively if there are issues for government to take forward then I would be more than happy to explore that with them once they feel that they are at a point where they have had a full assessment of the work that they have been undertaking following on from my colleagues' comments on the Scottish Human Rights Commission one of the concerns expressed by Mr Adamson in evidence was a concern that resources might be taken away from unannounced visits in order to support the rotor and visits and the second type of visit what reassurance can you provide that that won't be the case? There's a danger in me prescribing what happens here when I'm keen to do what I'm keen and I'm sure will happen is that there will be a balance which will be struck around the ad hoc monitoring visits that take place the work programme which is agreed with the prison monitoring co-ordinators and obviously the programme which is also agreed with individual establishments at prisons to ensure that all of our establishments are on an annual basis being effectively monitored on all aspects of them where possible and that the reports that come from that can help to inform us about any changes or improvements that need to be made or where good practice has been experienced how that can be shared across the rest of the establishment so I don't want to get into a situation where I'm in danger of prescribing how much there should be for one thing or the other so that it will be in the interests of the chief inspector and the way in which the advisory board operates is to make sure that they achieve a balance between those which are unannounced which are also taking forward as part of the programme's work and also part of the agreed programme that they have with prison governors I think I'm also correct in saying that even the work which is agreed with the prison monitor co-ordinators is also part of what could be unannounced work as well so there's part of it that's agreed with governors but the other aspects that the prison monitor co-ordinators have got about trying to make sure that all other prisons are covered and also that as many aspects of it are considered as well as part of it can be unannounced as part of that work programme Pete White from Prison Inevitence said to us that he thinks the conduct of the independent monitors will determine how they are viewed by prisoners they will have to develop a way of working that builds trust but it sometimes takes a personality rather than an order to make that happen would you agree with that comment? I think that when it comes to developing a relationship and if you consider where a prisoner may be in terms of being imprisoned in relation to the level of trust they may have in disclosing individual information to an individual it's extremely important that the independent monitors are able to to provide that reassurance and to be seen as trustworthy and able to provide them with the support and guidance that an individual prisoner may require so personal relationships are key are an important part of it and part of that will be to make sure that prison monitors are effectively trained and that they have the necessary skills and attributes which are required to be able to do that so I know that at times the trust in a prison can probably be at a premium that's why it's extremely important that the individuals who undertake this work and engage them with prisoners are able to offer the necessary assurance and support that's required for a prisoner to be able to disclose information to them if they feel as appropriate Thank you Thank you Just about the next steps about what we're doing today I know that John Finney said that we've been talking about this for a long time and we had Professor Coil who was not sure if we should move on yet when Dr James McMahon has said let's get this going we know that one implication will be that if we pass this order today is that it will be up cut compliant but what are the implications for prison visiting in Scotland if the order is not passed today? The order is not passed today it's a status quo and if the order is not passed we're then in a situation where we would not be changing the system as has been proposed in the model that's outlined in this particular order so we would effectively have the status quo as a result Apart from the fact that we won't be up cut compliant Exist not up cut compliant No, it's not but the new model is up cut compliant Thank you That's it Excellent You've got another question No, that was it No, I didn't mean that set for all of you just for Christian Don't panic Margaret It laid me all up by Margaret Thank you, convener That was the monitoring duties of our requirement to oversee temporary release of prisoners Can you explain a little bit more what that means? Kerry is probably best placed to give you a bit more detail around that so some of that is reflective of the feedback that we've had from the consultation process of which there have been several consultation processes over the year but some aspects of that have come about as a result of some of the feedback received in the course of the consultation That addition was made to the order in the light of legal advice that Kerry could describe better to you but we didn't want to be in a position where a prisoner wanted to speak to an independent monitor about aspects of their temporary release and because we hadn't stipulated that in the order that they wouldn't be able to do so so for example if they wanted to discuss things around the transport to their temporary release location or their temporary release being cut short we didn't want to have a situation legally where an independent monitor wasn't able to speak to the prisoner about that merely because we hadn't included those words but Kerry could describe better the legal position on that This year rose during the drafting process the powers that we previously gave to the chief inspector to inspect prisons and the treatment of prisoners and also the powers that we gave to prison monitors to inspect to monitor prisons and the treatment of prisoners referred to the treatment of prisoners within prisons and it was those words within prisons that we were concerned may have created a loophole where I the chief inspector would be prevented from inspecting the arrangement for temporary release and similarly prison monitors would be prevented from monitoring the arrangement for temporary release We considered taking out the words within prisons but that wouldn't be enough to close that particular loophole so that's why the additional paragraph was added it's not intended to create a significant extra burden on prison monitors it's just simple there to close a potential loophole that may have prevented temporary release arrangements being concerned That will be made clear with guidance and so on because it is open to interpretation that it's putting a fairly onerous responsibility on monitors There will be additional guidance that will go alongside the work and additional aspects for how the order will operate There was also concerns around what looks like a requirement for prison monitors to use the official complaints system of the SPS where some prisoners don't have a lot of confidence in the official system Can you clarify? I'm just checking that you're asking about complaints system Voices on either side of me So there you are Zones is not complaining from either side of you Sometimes it is camera set but I ignore those There are obviously two aspects to this One is the formal complaints process which has been reviewed and changed and there's the additional aspect that goes to the Public Services Ombudsman within the prison service as well so there have been improvements made to the SPS complaints process There is of course the opportunity for if an issue is raised with an independent prison monitor that they feel that they wish to pursue directly themselves that they're able to do so as well they are still in a position to be able to do that but out with that there is the formal prison complaints process which has been enhanced and extends now into the Public Service Ombudsman which it did previously so that has been improved alongside these changes It will be open to a prisoner discussion with the monitor to decide that they don't want to take the official route and that they would rather take it more informal That's their discretion where they feel that that may not be the most appropriate way to do it It depends on the nature of it and that particular prison monitor on how they feel it can be most effectively taken forward Professor Coyle felt that the draft order is weaker than the existing legislation in regard to the capability of prisoners to take things up directly There is a complaints process that formal process has always been there and its order doesn't change that but the order through the independent prison monitors and the way in which they'll be established will be able to pursue a complaint directly to themselves if they feel that's the most appropriate way in which to achieve it For yourself, we've all experienced constituents who have raised particular issues and sometimes the best way is just to directly engage with the organisation Sometimes it is to go through the formal complaints process and the nature of the complaint but there's flexibility there to do that if the independent prison monitor chooses to do so Thank you Just picking up a little bit on the complaint system I understand that the draft order was consulted on in September and then redrafted in November and September the role of monitors and handling complaints was removed and then re-estated partially in November and we're now at a situation if I understand it properly where concern has been expressed from the SHRC and Howard League that the proposal for independent prison monitors to assist with the existing internan complaints weakens the process, is that the case? The process and as I've outlined before is that it can assist an individual prisoner in pursuing a complaint through the complaints process itself the internal SPS complaints process which can then take you to the Scottish Public Service Orminsman which would be external which would take it to the point where it would remove it would then go out with the SPS itself that's the normal complaints process there is the opportunity for an independent prison monitor to be able to actually take up an issue themselves within an establishment or within the SPS about an issue that's been raised with them by a prisoner but in terms of the changes that we've made we'll be able to offer you a wee bit more of the background as to how that came about the internal complaint system and that was seen from the evidence last week to be compromising their independence in the eyes potentially of the prisoners and there was a real human rights issue here as a result an answer to that in the middle of the earlier kerfuffle but perhaps you'll clarify about you know that's an issue of choice so if the prison monitor wants to assist them take them through the complaints process which takes you to the point which is going to the Public Service Orminsman who is out with the SPS and is independent in these matters I'm not entirely sure how that compromises their independence so I'm not entirely clear how they've arrived at that particular viewpoint but there is also the possibility for an independent prison monitor to pursue an issue through the establishment the SPS directly for themselves so I'm not entirely sure how they've arrived at that particular viewpoint and it's not necessarily one from what you've explained that I would share You keep mentioning to the SPS can something be raised prisoner raised something with independent prison monitor and take it to the governor without going through the I think that's part of the thing Yes of course they can so they can go directly to the governor about a particular issue that's been raised with them they don't have to go through the formal complaints process Just to take that point further the independent prison monitor can go directly to the governor with any issue that they see fit and has raised with them they can also go to the chief inspector who can then raise that with Scottish ministers or can come to the parliament and when we're talking about the independent prison monitors role in the formal complaints process what we're talking about is assisting prisoners who may have literacy issues who may not understand the system it's about assisting a prisoner where they have decided they want to go through the formal process to do that it's not about the independent prison monitor system that is dealing with the complaint I understand that but perception as you will understand cabinet secretary is everything and it was a point raised specifically if they helped, if they chose to help if a prisoner chose to involve them in that it may be seen to be compromising their position I wonder if I could ask specifically about the number of independent prison monitors that are envisaged and is there any kind of idea for the number of visits is that provided anywhere? So there is the issue around the visits which is that establishment should be visited on an annual basis that there should be a range of those visits that take place across the course of the year the issue is about the visits taking place rather than the actual number of independent prison monitors so it would be once it's established for them to determine how many there's going to be three co-ordinators who will be responsible they will require a sufficient number of independent prison monitors in order to undertake the that they're going to carry out so for example establishments I believe are due to be under the order will require to be monitored on a weekly basis so they're not therefore going to have to have enough independent monitors in order to allow that to happen so it's the frequency which is the important aspect rather than the actual global number that are actually brought on board to act as independent prison monitors so it will then be determined based upon the need to carry out these frequent visits and monitoring visits to then have a cohort of staff that are able to undertake that workload I think the difficulty here is both capacity in terms of the three types of visits that you've mentioned and the Zerota then there's the visits that have to be approved or coordinated with the prison governor and then lastly we've got without prior notice so I think there's a real concern that without the prior notice may slip if there's more predominance or influence or priority given to the other two and just the sheer capacity of carrying out three different types I mean do we have any idea how many independent monitors we might need or how many visits we're talking about I'm not specifying how many there should be so I don't know how we can question their capacity if I was saying it we should have five you may say to me that there are issues about capacity about then being able to undertake that range of work but we're not specifying the number we're specifying the frequency to which those visits should take place so there's a weekly monitoring visit that needs to take place there is a programme of work around covered on a regular weekly basis but also all aspects of the establishment are considered so then be for the chief inspector of prisons along with the advisory group to determine what's the right number to actually have in order to get the right complement of monitoring visits taking place on the frequency to which the order has set out so I don't understand how we could question capacity if we haven't specified the number will this be left to guidance pardon will this be left to guidance now for visits the number of independent monitors appointed the visits is set out in order the frequency of visits is set out in order and the number of independent monitors will that be set out in guidance that will be taken forward by the inspector of prisons in Scotland to determine how many are required with the advisory group how many they require in order to meet to be the weekly monitoring visit undertaken so is this something that's covered by guidance along with the monitoring of the temporary release that independent monitors are being asked to set out specifying the number we're not determining how many you should have we've been questioned about the independence of them we're not saying this is how many you should have because then people would say you're limiting the number of them in order to make sure they only do x, y or z we have to do at least one monitoring visit per week in every establishment in Scotland it's for you to determine how many independent monitors you require in order to do that and to meet the capacity that's necessary in order to achieve that so we're not constraining it we're giving them the opportunity to determine how many they require to do the job I think that my difficulty is just discretionary of this so could I ask for example would the cabinet secretary be agreeable to any additional guidance having statutory scrutiny or being subject to a statutory review? We're now getting into the territory of me limiting the role which was part of the purpose behind having it undertaken by the chief inspector of prisons to determine this process and how that works on an operational basis if I start issuing statutory guidance and so on this is how many you require I will then be subject to the accusation that you're compromising its independence because you're defining it and you're constraining it so what we're doing is creating the ground rules what's expected the visits that are required we've put in place the advisory group that will be responsible for monitoring and evaluating how it's operating which as the chief inspector's indicated will be an independent person it will have stakeholders such as the Scottish Human Rights Commission on it not to determine it if they believe that for example the number of independent monitors that have been appointed is insufficient not to undertake the work effectively then I would expect the chief inspector of prisons to respond to that type of issue so if I start getting into determining this is how many there should be this is the constraints on which you should operate I will then start to compromise independence which has been such an important part of the new model that's been taken forward there's a balance to be struck between interfering and having the appropriate checks and balances and that's what I fear there may not be a prison as the orders lead that's more of a debating part which we come to later than the question as nobody has asked it I'll ask because one of the issues was the personnel who make up very important independent prison monitoring committees who are generally of a certain ethnicity of a certain age they are usually quite often retired because they get time off it seems that when the relationship between the people coming in as monitors with individual prisoners is so important it would be good if they could relate to the parties who are coming in now one of the issues was about not getting time off work with pay to do it is there any way that this can be addressed by the legislation but can it be addressed it does seem very difficult for some prisoners to relate to certain people coming and not the same wrong with the people just different backgrounds, different age very difficult to tell intimate details to them so is there any thought being given to this to extending the pool as it were of people through giving them paid leave from work as they do in other as I understand they do it if they're in the GTC it gives them time off local authorities is there any way of addressing that in balance the intention is to try and recruit as widely as possible for individuals who would be attracted to take on the role of independent prison monitors so to try and encourage as wide a range as individuals as possible there are some technical issues around payment aspects and legislation in this particular area and Craig can probably offer you a bit of legal advice on some of the complexities around this particular issue but what I can assure you of is that the intention is that the independent prison monitors should be as reflective of our society as possible and when that's advertised no doubt committee members will maybe know of individuals who they think would be very suitable to that type of role and I'd be keen for you to encourage them to consider applying for a post sector I think you'd agree that given the additional duties that it's extremely difficult for somebody in employment who's not going to get time off or paid or whatever to take it up and we're likely to have the same decent people coming in but from the same catchment so is there any way that this can be Mr MacGuffey I'm looking at with anticipation the difficulty with this one is that we consider that this would be outwith the legislative competence of the Parliament paragraph 2 of Shared of 2 to the Scotland Act provides that the Scottish Parliament can't modify or confer power by supporting legislation to modify the law on reserved matters and the subject matter of the Employment Rights Act is reserved we can make consequential the subject matter of the Employment Rights Act 1996 is reserved we can make consequential changes to that consequential is there any way in liaison with the UK Government that this can be done? I think it happens elsewhere in the UK and it would seem to me that this is a fairly reasonable thing to do if you want to make a system work Potentially, I think the last change I need to share that a bit I think the last change to section 50 of the Employment Rights Act to add a Scottish based body was along the lines of Water Scotland to make that change so it is possible that an LCM could be agreed Just to put another thing in your entry cabinet secretary I know you have not enough to do Of course not and it is much appreciated but we will certainly give further consideration to that convener I think so, the committee generally felt that was a fair point being made and it is the people who make the system work and prison monitoring the process may be very fine but it is the quality and the range of people that will make it successful That ends the evidence session I now move on to item 5 which is the debate itself to invite the cabinet secretary to move motion S4M-185 the justice committee recommends draft public services reform, inspection and monitoring of prison Scotland order 2014 be approved Do any members wish to speak Having listened to last week's evidence session and this week's evidence session it is with regret cabinet secretary that I have to say that I do not think that the order does provide for a better system as it is laid out at present, there are too many questions and far too much is being left to guidance and guidance which is being developed and led by the SPCS deputy government who is the project lead I do not question her integrity for a moment but inevitably she is going to look at things specifically through the SPCS viewpoint for all of these reasons then I think we are looking at an inferior system we are using a hammer to crack a nut bending over backwards to be optat compliant I think in other jurisdiction by the ombusman end of story that would have rectified what was a good system not a perfect system before but a good system with a little tweaking could have been improved Thank you Obviously I just reflect on the fact that this matter has had a long history to get to where we are today I think it is important to reflect on the fact that distinctions between inspection and monitoring are obviously David Strang's evidence on that point about them being complementary but not distinct Obviously there are concerns which have been expressed by the Scottish Human Rights Commission I am reassured by what the cabinet secretary has had to say in respect to that today but I would hope that going forward we would recognise and continue to recognise as optat requires the continuing importance of the unannounced visit Obviously in terms of a complaints procedure we have dealt with that today I think quite comprehensively I would appreciate what Dr McManus said in evidence that the important thing is to bolster not subvert the existing complaints process Again, as far as the advisory group's concern I am reassured by what the cabinet secretary said this morning I think that the proof of the pudding will be in the eating and I hope and wish it will I am a bit I suppose in a sense of it in a bit of a quandary about this I accept that there has been a lot of progress made to the original order and there has obviously been attempts to address many of the issues The problem for me is that I am not yet convinced that it is the best model Nor was Professor Coyle convinced that this was actually the best model There can be an argument for a system more like that in England and Wales might be a preferable model I think that was his preferred model I need you to convince me that there is a reason not to start again and re-look at the model and that going forward that we are not settling for something inferior in going forward with this rather than actually ripping it up and starting again with maybe a different model altogether John Finnie Thank you, convener I had reservations and they were being apparent last week in the line of questioning that I took This has been in the go for a long time I think that the crucial question that was posed by my colleague Christian Arlard when he talked about whether the present system is upcap compliant or not present system isn't is anything perfect while we strive for perfection I have been reassured with what I have heard today with regard to the on-going monitoring of it and the role for people who have been critical namely the Scottish Human Rights Commission I think that we should go and always look to be improving but go with the present what's being proposed here I've started out from the position that what was in place previously was very imperfect we were very good prison visiting committees and some pretty poor ones we know that from the evidence we had earlier on before the redrafted legislation so that's where I start from I've been content at the explanation about Lota but when that was put as a kind of context a backcloth is very distinct from an inspection that by regularly visiting a place she can get a sense of changes that are taking place and this does not impede ad hoc inspections being taken place by the IPM so I'm content about that I'm also more content now that I've heard further evidence about the complaints process because I had concerns that if you're asking a place that you're complaining about the last thing that you might want to do it might be appropriate if there's difficulties in writing and so on and there's difficulties just simply in putting down the prisoners' words but I'm pleased when I heard that in fact you can still make complaints through the IPM directly to the governor bypasses it where the formal process if that's appropriate so that's a lot better yes, that's made a big difference it's not perfect I've yet to sit here and hear a piece of legislation come in front of me that's perfect, some of it's been terrible over the years, I'm not going to name names it's happened throughout various executives and the government but this is a darn sight better and I think I'm in the position of a suck-it-and-see I think from my point of view there's enough markers being put down in the evidence by this committee that if it does turn out to be flawed we'll be the first I'll be the first, I can't speak very well so many I'll be the first to jump on it so given all that and some caveats about how it actually operates with all these other matters now put into some kind of position for me, I am content that's my position now to give my support to this but I'm happy to hear cabinet secretaries further words with regard to concerns of my colleagues I appreciate all the comments of me made by all members and the fact that some members continue to have some anxieties and concerns I think it's important to recognise that over many years our prison visiting committees undertook a lot of very good work and very important work and it's an extremely valuable role and our intentions and our plans our proposal to change that I don't want to underestimate the important role that our visiting committees have undertaken and all of those volunteers have participated in that over the years but I do believe that the new model that is proposed is one that will allow us to make sure that we have much more effective monitoring regime within our prisons which is independent of government or the prison system in itself which will give us an additional level of understanding as to what's going on within our prison estate over and above that of our independent inspection regime of our prisons which are a very robust mechanism which takes place on a very regular basis and for those who heard GMS this morning you would have heard the inspector's most recent findings from HMP so we've a very robust and strong independent inspection regime and I think that the independent monitoring model that we are proposing is an effective one which will allow us to have that additional level of confidence around independent monitoring that is taking place I'm with you in this one convener in that I do think it is one of these issues that there are other models that could be pursued which have their pros and cons to them we have sought to try and strike a balance in the approach that we're taking with this particular order hence the reason, the length of time that's taken to arrive at this particular point and the variety of consultations and changes that have been made over that period of time in order to try and address some of these concerns in order to try and accommodate changes within the order in order to try and improve on it I acknowledge that there are some of those who don't feel that we have gone far enough but this is a system that will be opcat compliant it's a process which I think will help to improve our prison estate and it will help to ensure that we've got robust independent monitoring taking place I believe that we've got the right safeguards in place to monitor its effectiveness as well and if necessary to make any further changes that may be required should those be required at some point in the future but it's a model that's certainly better than what we have at the present time in one that I think is worthy of the support of the committee Can I just clarify, you've said something very important then should you require to make any changes how would that be done sorry, I've come in after your summing up but I think that's quite important when we did the... If after a period of time there are issues that people feel is a deficiency in the model in terms of how it's operating then I'm very much of the view that it's required to be made to it I'm confident that what we've got is one which will work but as ever the test will be in how it operates but I'm certainly at some point in the future if there are areas where deficiencies have been identified open to looking at how they can be addressed Thank you very much and I move on, the question is that motion S4M-11848 be agreed to Are we all agreed? We're not agreed, there'll be a division please show those against, please show and there are, I take it, no abstentions that's 7 for 1 against the motion is then agreed to Thank you very much We are, thank you Cabinet Secretary Members are aware we are required to report on all affirmative instruments and members are content to delegate respond to me to sign off this report I'll take it, just a... Sorry? We can bring the report back to the next meeting if you're content Thank you very much Now we are moving on to private session Thank you I might have said Item 8 1, negative instrument The Civil Jurisdiction and Judges Protection measures Scotland regulations 2014 SSI 2014 leak 333 This instrument facilitates application of regulation EU number 606 stroke 201T on mutual recognition of protection measures in civil matters The regulation is part of a package which aims to strengthen victims' rights and is designed to complement the European protection or directive and related regulations which we have just considered The DPLR committee did not draw the attention of the Parliament to this instrument Do members have any comments on relation to this instrument? It's quite important to mention that the Scottish Government considers the definition could for example cover interdicts and civil non-harassment borders Although the Scottish Government says that it doesn't expect much business I would have thought that it perhaps would be more than the criminal procedure which we are not considering Thank you for that note Are members content to make no recommendation on relation to this instrument? We now move into private session Thank you