 Hey, welcome, folks, in Houston and those of you that are joining online will also be able to take part, because Ben and Fran and QA group are going to be using Miro and VBOX for the past few weeks, and also for yourselves and the person here. The session is on the, what about me, universal design for learning plus the inclusion by learning, by way of show hands, how many of you have heard universal design for learning? Good stuff. So, good hand over to Fran and to Ben. Thank you very much. And I need to pop out. I might be back, but I'm not. See you guys later at the event. Thank you. Welcome everyone. Great to have you here. I'm hoping we'll explain at the beginning what we're going to do but we're hoping we give you a session a little something a little bit different for the next hour something participatory and something you'll be involved in. Almost put you back in the learner's shoes for an hour, or maybe the first half hour of the hour so. Spoiling the reveal that's that's the hope for today and it's a session we've done internally our place before and it's gone well so hopefully two out of two. So we'll just introduce ourselves. I'm Ben Sweetman. I'm director for content and learning design at QA. QA is a commercial training business. We generally train technical people to do technical things across a really diverse range of different learning types, including higher education, apprenticeships, short courses, fully online is a real variety of what we do. And as part of the reason why universal design for learning has kind of been really interesting to us because we've got such a wide variety of different audiences and different objectives so that's me, Fran. And I'm Fran Harrison I work in Ben's team I joined almost exactly four years ago as a learning technologist, having you having done a business case that we needed one. So four years down the line I now lead a team, including myself seven learning technologists who never have time to draw breath because we just constantly doing something new aren't we all the time as soon as something's finished, the next new big thing comes along so yeah, it's good fun. Certainly is. So should we want to do is start with the housekeeping, and then we'll intro the section so I'm going to drive the slides and Fran and tell you what to do. Right. We're doing session that's in supposed to be inclusive that's supposed to be universal already done it. Thank you. In the spirit of that, we work a lot using digital whiteboards. So we've created a mirror digital whiteboard that will be using for the session. And we'll be taking questions, particularly for online people will accept questions from in the room but mainly for obviously online people we don't want you to be left out so any questions you have at all, or any inputs particularly for online people during the session where we ask a question. Please drop them into the VVox Q&A and whoever's not actually speaking will pick those up so that you've got an equal voice as much as we can manage. Is there anybody who in the room particularly is going to struggle to get into the mirror board for any reason, because we do have a backup if we need it. Do you want to go on to the next slide just in case I mean mirror is going to be before by far the easiest experience because it's where the majority of people will be. If by any chance particularly anybody online who's got mirror filtered on their network or something. We do have a backup padlet board. It's built by me not our graphics team so it's not as good I'm afraid but it will enable you to take part and have a have a voice in the session. So if you can use mirror please do because we'll be working on that for the majority of the session. That's everything is there. There you go. Right so I need to do in tech setup. So, and see there are a few few hands went up around. Sorry for a few few hands went up saying that you were aware of universal design for learning. So, maybe first question is both on VVox in the room is what does inclusion and exclusion kind of mean for you as learning technologists and other similar digital roles and how do you experience it in your institution with your learners currently. As it framed as well. So, I'm not struggling as well. All inputs welcome. So, yeah slides down. I will accept voice also as an input. Voice text. They're all welcome. Let's go back into that one. Minimize that one. Is that still not showing something. Yeah, I think we just pull the slides down completely from. There we go. That's better. Post it VVox or voice in the room. Yeah, or welcome for anybody that's not used to mirror before expect most of us have but just in case anybody hasn't. There's a little folded over square up here. If you tap on that it will create a virtual post it note which you can then add here. At that session. Inclusion. So, just as everyone's getting those in I'm just going to keep going if you want to keep adding things. I'll just say a little bit about why universal design for learning is resonated with us and why we think it's really helpful is a thing. Previously I think that a lot of the discussion on inclusion and accessibility was actually ended up being a disability model, which is. Generally considered for those people who had a particular disability that we then put in place. Alternatives for them. What we love about universal design for learning is much broader and actually it's the best framework we've seen that genuinely helps you think about the whole learning experience for everyone. Not just viewing accessibility through a kind of, like I said that narrow frame. When we think about universal design for learning is it's the three the three kind of main pillars of it are one is how do you engage people at the beginning. How do you particularly for us a lot of that for us about removing barriers to entry so particularly a good example for us would be apprenticeships, where actually we actively want to remove barriers to people getting into an industry. By making apprenticeships as accessible as possible and so some of those can be very straightforward things like qualification. Entry requirements that's that's one part we can go how can we make it easier that way. Another part is then thinking about. If you want to get people into technology, we want to make the interview process less reliant what we found is lots people got asked technical questions in an interview question. To be an apprentice where they buy their very definition didn't have any technical background. And so in the early stages of a process it starts to go that and almost gets us outside of just learning. It also works for us inside and it's a good example be optional modules is is how do you actually make the effort to give people more information about what optional modules to choose in a course and why. Again, being really disciplined about removing pre-rex with it between courses that can accidentally force a student or a learner to close their close an option down. So that's kind of the first bit of you down the middle bit is the bit about actually in a sense content. And without going to all the detail for us, you know, keep it there is again not this is where it's not just about the basic minimums it's thinking about plain English for everyone. Moving beyond just an alternative to actually how do you get allow people to support preferences for how they want to consume content. Basically, and this one the great opportunities potentially for AI that we're starting to see is how can you actually just another learner, the control to go I want to consume this as text or as video, or as audio on the fly. You know, early days for that but that's the sort of pace and and definitely the prevalence of plain jargon free English throughout all of our tone of voice. So what I'm saying right is real focus now on plain English, writing in the simplest way possible, particularly for technical content and ensuring universities saying there's lots of subject matter that can get very jargon heavy. So that's the middle for us in representation. And the final one is, is called action expression but it's particularly around assessment which we'll talk about is giving choice in assessment. And definitely in most academic. So as we do have quite a lot of choice we just tend to narrow it down for learners at the point of a module descriptor. And actually the discipline and the design stage for us is what we've really started to look at is how can we open choice up. That means that we can assess people on their skills and their knowledge not on how well they used a particular medium. And so those are the three kind of key pillars of this. Hello. You only right let's have a go. How do we do that friend. Anyone with a link can be used the one that we need to change. That's that. There you go. All right. Try again. It was was a bit ambitious session wasn't it. Thank you. Wonderful. Okay. So that's the intro. Yep. So it's one I think. Just give you a couple of moments and and then actually I was doing this I'll say something and then I will leave. I will leave the room quiet for a minute. One of the things we found when we started really adopting Miro. As I've already had early in lockdown, we started adopting Miro massively in classes and actually it had a real inclusion benefit for us because we found when you used to do breakout sessions in our classrooms. You know, in the way the gobby ones dominant dominated. Even if it was a post it note sessions, the people who talk a lot tended to dominate the sessions. And then what we found is we moved to mirror and we went, we went to quite a lot of this we went to silent brainstorming and silent exercises. And suddenly we got this much more, much broader participation in the exercises because actually we found loads of people are really happy. Our audience with lots of technical people were really happy writing writing to contribute much more so than they were to actually speak and particularly in our most of our sessions are made up of people who don't know each other. They meet each other literally on the Monday morning of a course. And so it has that kind of social awkwardness thing in it. And we found it broke that down really much better than. I can see things starting to go in. I like the sense of belonging. Sometimes forget isn't it that it's not just about giving people access to stuff it's about people feeling that they actually belong in the session as well. I'll just read some out for anyone who can't. So we've got equal access and opportunities, actively including marginalized group. If anyone wants to make their post it's a little bigger that would help me equity focused there you go thank you. Enabling success throughout the journey, and you see yourself represented selling is a really nice there. And that's a good place for us to start from. Okay. Give me a second because I forgot to do one thing didn't I. Right. So, I'm going to move on to this one. This came from a long and bizarre conversation didn't it this activity. We were saying. How can we with our team. Not tell them about UDL tell them what about the website because you can do that yourselves quite to be honest. What we do is how often do we actually give ourselves time to stop completely all the emails, all the teams messages, and to step back and go. Okay we're trying to do this because we know it's important. Why, why do we need to do this why is it important, why does the learner need us to do this for them. So we decided to do it experientially really didn't we, which is stop everybody right. We're going to put you in the learner's field we're going to put you in the learner's shoes. So, this activity, I do hope this works. We are amongst learning technology so you, I hope you'll forgive me if this doesn't work first time, but I'm actually going to show you a video. And tell you a bit of a story because I am notorious for telling stories. On your mirror boards that there is a picture of the Oculus courtesy about amazingly talented graphics department. And I'd like to emphasize before we start just for health and safety reasons this is a story do not rush out of the building to take part in this. The story is Billy Smith is about to be or has just been sworn in as the new CEO of out. And he was feeling really generous last night. So he decided that he was so excited about coming CEO that he was going to give away a prize. And the prize is a lifetimes free access to the outside conference for yourself and for a friend. All you have to do is find the envelope that contains the voucher to give you that free access. The voucher is on top of the Oculus building. You have to climb the Oculus building to get to it. So this is why you all have rope on your table and I, I hope the online participants. If you haven't pick up something you can tie knots in and that sort of thing because that is the reason for the rope in case anybody was wondering shoelace for shoelaces lanyard just temporarily just anything. Yeah, it's fine. Don't try and walk without shoelaces. So, what we're going to do is I'd like you to take a piece of rope you have a bit of choice if you're in room because I'd like to give people choice if I can. If you would like to work in pairs, feel free to speak to the person next to you who think that would be better. I had laundered all these, I will say just for health and safety reasons they've been through the wash. And what we're going to do. I'd like you to look at our Oculus building. You'll see it has lots of people below it. I'd like you to pick one of your people. And if you tap on the name where it says name below the person put your name in there doesn't have to be your own name if you want to be confidential, but claim one of the people and that's your person for this session. I'll give you a couple of minutes just to claim somebody. Remember where your person is because there are quite a few there. The video. I'm going to work on the basis that we're vaguely ready one moment. Yeah, an advert. Oh wonderful. Let's skip the advert. One moment. There we go. Right, if everybody's claimed something. What you need to do. We've got police outside the building. They're already there are people ready to haul you up the building so no matter your mobility issues no matter anything all you have to do is attach yourself to one of the Caribbean as one of the police outside the building then somebody will haul you up so you can start searching. You need to tie a knot called a bowling does anybody know how to tie a bowling already have I got any sailors or any climbers in the room or I can't ask online but you haven't added advantages that I don't know you already know this. I should add that I'm terrible at knots and I've done this twice and still can't do it. I should add that I can vouch for that. So, I'm going to show you a video of how to tie the knot. When you've tied your knot after the video. Move your little person to the top of the Oculus to show me that you have managed to tie yourself to the ropes and somebody has managed to pull you to the top of the Oculus so that you can be part of the party that searches for the prize. Are you ready. Okay. Done. How you doing. He's going to demonstrate his not first. How did you get on with that how did. I've got a couple of knots this this is better than our team can we employ some of these people. Not fast learners. I've got one or two people that have managed to tie a knot that should look, hang on. I can't believe I'm doing this live on the live stream. That should look like that. So you should have something that looks roughly like that. If you've what, if you've watched Peter rabbit the cartoon that is also. Yes. Come out the house. Okay. Round the tree. And if you're online via V box. I don't want to know whether you were successful or not. I know I just showed you a video in Korean with no access to the subtitles. How did it feel to be set up for a real activity where you're really excited looking forward to doing it. I do the activity I give you the resource to do the activity. And it's almost impossible to engage with how did it feel when you got that moment you thought, I can't do this because I can't engage with the materials you've given me. Really annoying friend. No you've missed it. So you think you managed to do it by looking but you're having to look away to do the not so you couldn't engage. You don't speak Korean so you can't listen to it while so if there are any people that speak Korean as their native language they probably did okay at that. It's not a great feeling is it when you get to that situation and everybody launches in and then you suddenly realize that the stuff you've been given, and people asking you to succeed. It prevents you basically you've got an instant blocker to being able to learn. I think probably a hand over to you now don't I. So yes, I will now confess I've deliberately we designed a bad learning experience and look at it thought how can we make it worse right we can do that we can do that. So this is it's not the worst worse we could have come up with. We wanted to deliberately put you in that situation where you're given something to do and then prevented from being able to do it. Right, so now we'd like to go back to the mirror border alternative feedback mechanism. And actually here to start listing out or calling out but anyone who we've excluded by the way we've run. So in all three big groups micro groups preferences anything who did we exclude. And if you can think of anybody who did we include. So that should just put it notes. On the right hand panel for people that were excluded in that that learning activity if they had to succeed at it and people who were included do you need the URL again. Yeah, I know. I got it on this one might be easiest to do this. People working. I'll open the. Yeah, yes. Thank you. Good one. One isn't it. I'll just it's a QR code or link if you want to. Yeah, good one. The pressure. Yes. Yeah. I'll jump across and put it on there. There's a link to it on there. So is that QA dash out C 23 dash you deal. Yeah. Is that a bowling. Right. It's either a bowling on noose. I'm not sure I want to test it. I'm just going to add the one about anxiety because I do. If you can't. You just tied a bowling. I'm going to add that one in. I'm delighted to see we have actually got some on the included side. It's clearly a more gifted group than we had. Yeah. That's not right. It's not working. You in success. Brilliant. You might need to refresh it if you can. It looks like it's not refreshing. So I'm coming out and going back into it again. So if you can be. Go on to the next one. Everyone happy they've had long enough to put a few points up. I think the most profound on here is in excluded. We've got me. I think it's actually a kind of goes to the heart of the point is actually. And the reality is probably in the room multiple me's roughly about half and probably I ended up with a bowling but probably more by luck than judgment. I'm being honest. Yeah, let's let's pick pick out some of those. Those with vertical. Those online who didn't hit couldn't see. How to spell bowling to find it for themselves. Because bowling is one of those words that doesn't quite sound like how it. Spell how it sounds. Visual impairment. Restricted mobility. You're a diverse and instructions again were, you know, effectively only given by us verbally. And then you're totally reliant on what we've given and did you catch it all. Absolutely. Actually, I love there's a bilingualness to this, which is unique instructions from us in English. And then the video was in Korean. So you actually needed to be bilingual really. To be able to complete the exercise. So yeah, we got dexterity. So we've so many people we've excluded. Frankly with probably the learning industry's most popular tool at the moment, which is video. So then included. I think we've, you know, we've got included Koreans, competitive people, sailors and climbers, I agree. Yeah. It's basically people who already had some knowledge. What former members of the Scouts. I like that. But actually, all right, the post-its. If you turned, instead of going by weight of post-its, we would have included a much smaller number of people than we excluded on that first exercise. So we're going to try and learn from our mistakes. As all good people should. And we're going to have another go. Yeah. So scaling the heart heights part two. Just to show that we do. Under the knot. Very reluctantly in my case. Part two. You now have access to that video. And I can tell you if you choose to use the video, you can switch on closed captions and you can translate them. So you can have, it will still be in Korean, but you can have closed captions in your first language. I've linked to a diagram or you could look for your own diagram. And I've linked to the old classic Wikipedia who has actually has some really good instructions on how to type a bowling. That's B O W L I N E for anybody that wants to look it up. And I'm going to give you probably another four minutes. If you've managed to type before, see if you can do it again, have a look at the instructions, see if there's something that would have suited you better if you'd had it first time. If you haven't had a go before. Dip in. If you're watching a video, please keep the volume down. So we haven't got 25 videos playing in the room. People online. I'm going to check into V Vox and see if there's any issues, but I think we're okay. And I'll check into Padlet as well. Okay. Anything. Yeah. It's an interesting comment on V Vox. I know there's good reason I cannot do the thing, but it does leave you feeling embarrassed. And how many learners would be ashamed, certainly in a new situation where they didn't know everybody, be ashamed to say that they couldn't use a piece of design. Yeah. So three and a half minutes. Yeah. What am I getting from this? Somebody else said they felt like giving up. How often do we do that to learn without actually? Yeah. Did you write that? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Frustrating. I'm enjoying reading these. And for anybody that wants it, this is how you learned it last time, wasn't it? I wandered around the room tying a bowling. Would anybody like to watch me? I can't guarantee I'll get it right first time, but as a former sailor is everybody happy. Don't forget when you've managed to tie the knot, you can move your person to the top of the building ready to, for when somebody hits start to look for the envelope. This is where I put myself on the line for a second time. Anybody that's not looking at the thing. And I apologize to anybody. I'm distracting by doing this. The story is the rabbit in the hole. You create a hole about halfway down your rope. And you make sure there's a tree. That is underneath the cross piece. And you have a rabbit. The rabbit goes. Up through the, around the tree. Up through the, around the tree. Hang on. Wrong rabbit. I've got my tree upside down. Excuse me a moment. So the rabbit. Go. Up through the hole. Round the tree. And back down the hole again. Grab your rabbit. Grab everything. And you're ready to climb. If you do it slightly wrong, you can end up with a slipknot. This is not ideal. If you're about to be. Load bearing your entire weight on it. So do make sure. You can't move. I've got a slipknot. Obviously this is a ridiculous learning exercise, but it's just demonstrating how you can exclude somebody. So simply without thinking. I think we probably. We, we up on time. Oh, it's okay. I've put mattresses down. It's fine. You'll be okay. I also very keen on health and safety as well as. Give your knot to somebody else. Yeah. You're going to give your knot to me. Aren't you? So. If I go over to the. Oculus building. I wonder how many people I've now got. Up on top of the building. I've got quite a few up there now. Well done. Yeah. We've got some people up there. So we've got some people ready to go for the prize. You're still going. So. Are we. Back over to yours. Yeah. Me now. Back to the inclusion and exclusion again. Can we move anybody? Right. So it's well done for a start. Well done. Right. So now the. If we can go. We can go back to the previous board on. Inclusion. Exclusion. So the green. Yeah. I will. Bring everybody to me so that you can get there. If that's okay. So three. Two. One. You should now be over here. Yeah. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So we can now be over here. There we go. So the question now is. Having done it the second time where we've given you choice. And alternatives. And also. A second go practice. And. If you can move your. Either move your. Post-its. Or add to. Add to Padlet. So move the existing post-its and add new ones. So did we include some other people? Or did we exclude some new people? Yeah. The second time. So now what's our current state having introduced choice. With people that are excluded versus people who are included for being able to tie the knot. Yeah. I. Oh, is it? Oh, sorry. I'll move it over. Oh, thank you very much. So actually we haven't got. Many people doing stuff in Padlet. No, we're okay. We're not. We'll stick with Miro for now. There we go. So we are getting a move across from. So for some people. It's still not perfect. It's still not the idea that activity, but it's. Hopefully better than the first experience. So while you're moving those. While you're having look at the post-it notes and included and excluded in looking to see if there's anybody that could now be included in being able to tie the knot. How did it feel. To be given a choice. And to actually have. Be able to look at different ways of doing things and choose your own way of coming to that learning outcome. People online. If you want to drop something into V Vox. People in the room. Shout out and I'll repeat them. Lock my laptop because I know doubt it will have locked itself again. Okay. That's good point. So yeah. So it was easy for you, but you know how to manage choice. So. There's that other bit around. Being able to deal with choice. So if we suddenly introduce you DL, our learners ready for it. Do we need to do some foundation work to give them the ability to. Cope with that option of choice. It's something, another element that needs to be considered. Yes. Very good point. So not, not as many moving over as I thought would move. We've got more creative bunch. You see. Neuro diverse is a good point. Yeah. But again, we could build in more time. We could build in extra support. That sort of thing to, to make sure that. By, by design. Somebody was able to. To take part. Somebody said that Wikipedia diagram was too complex. I know that static diagrams don't work for me. That's good. The video was still best format. That's interesting because somebody has chosen to go to the next slide. Because they still felt it was the best option. Captions didn't help. It was too distracting, but slowing the playback speed. So you've got this. You're suddenly given the tools for. An existing learning assets. So can, when you host a video. Has it got closed captions? Can you control the playback speed? Can you pause it? Can you restart it? Those sort of things. Whereas the first time I deliberately didn't give you the controls. So, I'm going to. I think things have stopped moving. Yeah. And did anyone finish the activity the second time? Very quickly and become bored. Because that, I think was the, you know, the second thing that we thought is if you do it the second time, some people need the second practice, but we also. One of the bits that we felt it. Could highlight is the need to give stretch and challenge for a sub a subset of learners. Actually, there weren't as many sailors in the room as we expected. And so if there had been sailors again, we may well have had that subset of people who go, actually I needed something else to go and do. I needed advanced knots course. And so, you know, I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into that. I'm not going to go into advanced knots course. To follow. So that was one of the things we, we saw as a potential build to the way the activity was. Yeah. So now we're going to. Go to our final section of the. Today. No more not tying unless you want to try many knots do. there's actually thinking about the assessment and feedback aspects of this, so you know, the third pillar of UDL. And so all right, bear with us, we are still keeping the theme going, it's still about the exercise we've done, but if, as learning technologists and specialists and educators, the first question is what are, we've put, I think we've pre-prepared two assessment commonly, one commonly used assessment method and one less used assessment method. Well, unless you did a music degree like me. Yeah, we did musical education. So what we'd like you to do is to help us come up with a variety of ways that you could assess that activity and place them from the absurd, from the wonderful to the absurd. Now, I'm going to move a thousand word essay about tying a knot. It's a simple activity. You don't need to write in a thousand words. I'm going to move it down. There's possibly some variant of that that you might want to do. I would say if you want to assess whether or not somebody's tied a knot correctly, writing a song about it is probably about as bad as you go. So I'm going to put that somewhere east of the cross. Could be a sea shanty. It could be a sea shanty. Yep. They don't be climbing shanties, do they? No. But these are just to show that there are some monumentally bad ways of assessing things that sometimes you just look and think, why are we doing that way? And it's going back to the UDL and thinking, even if we've got a reasonably good way of assessing something, is it maybe time to go back and think about, could we do something different? Can we achieve what we need to do? Can we evidence what we need to evidence by doing it slightly differently? I love to teach someone else to tie that knot. Short video is a good way of doing it. If you've got the wherewithal and you're comfortable doing videos, so you could video yourself tying a knot as evidence that you're able to do it. I mean, obviously, again, it's a theoretical exercise. We'd never be teaching people to tie knots necessarily, but it's just taking an activity and thinking, how can I assess that most effectively? Tie the knot under supervision. So, yeah, now that brings the next level, that blue one. You've done it twice now. Practice, working. So, we're getting much more into the realms of showing somebody else to do it, capturing evidence of you tying the knot. I like this one because not only testing that the person knows how to tie the knot by getting them to teach somebody else, but you could have taught me how to tie that knot, taught me wrong, and I just said, yes, I now know how to tie that knot, but you're then getting me to demonstrate that you've taught me correctly, so it's quite complex, but it just takes it to that next level. Is there some way we can improve what we do already? It's just that kind of approach. I think in the particular bit of the apprenticeship bit of our business, there's this real thing that's very similar to this, which is we're assessing for skills and competence, and the nice thing that's given to us is the opportunity that we don't have to specify for the learner how they prove that to us. The media is totally open to them and that they can build a portfolio that proves it in whichever way they choose and see fit, and that's one of the great joys. You can put all of these up, but we don't have to specify them at the beginning for learners. We can say, we can give them suggestions and options and go, actually, any way that you might choose to show that you've done this for real in the real world at work is good, and I think that's one of the places where you can really get into a really positive place on the University of Design for Learning, which is the balance of choice and guidance. We can go, you might want to do it in one of these two ways, but anything else will be acceptable as long as it is your work, and you can make it authentic. Yes. Yes, so for those online, the question was have we taken it further in learning design workshops in ABC? Yes, actually, we do use ABC as one of our methods, and actually, it's really helpful for that very, because it's so quick, ABC focused and gets things moving really quickly, is actually including this as part of the almost the stimulus, the input for ABC is going, actually, what we want to do in this is to consider UDL, consider inclusion right from the start of that ABC, rather than trying to almost reverse engineer it back in when you're six months further down the line. So, yeah, ABC is a favourite model of ours as well. Yeah, I'm a little worried about the risk of the most appropriate, which is successfully absciling back off the oculus after having tied the knot. That's called high stakes assessments. Michael Goh loves a bit of that. Maybe he should, would he like it? Would he like a go? Yeah. There's so many, this is obviously a silly activity, but it's just modelling how it feels to not succeed, which to be honest, we're probably all quite used to succeeding or trying and then we're used to dealing with failure and then trying other methods, but some of our learners may not, but looking at ways in which we can make it so that it includes everybody, but also so that the learners have an equal chance of achieving at whatever level they need to. So, we can introduce multiple levels of assessment, but can they all achieve that A grade? Can they all achieve to the same level using the different methods that you're offering? So, it's just lots of different things. And really, what we would, we didn't want to read the website to you today. We definitely haven't done that. We definitely haven't done that. But there's so much that you can just look into and the UDL guidelines just have a huge amount of content and about just doing a review of a piece of content or a review of a learning experience, just to open up the UDL guidelines and pick an area and go through it and look through it. It's a really valuable experience, something we like to do from time to time. Anyway, we do critique sessions and things. Indeed. Good. Yeah. So, I think that brings us to the end of the planned activities. I will sit on VVox if anybody wants to raise any questions or we can repeat questions in the room or I can dash over to you with my radio mic. Right. So, any thoughts? I mean comments, thoughts, questions at this point? Personal experiences? Those who come across UDL? Of course, checklists. I think the university design is the way simply beyond checklists. Yeah. If we're covering UDL, it's going to get since the 80s. Yeah. It gets expandable into the UDL as the future. But still suggesting, if we're going to get this prize, if we're going to get to the particular building, it's going to be a good thing to go. I wouldn't even think that. It won't address structurally. Inequality. So, the basis of that is there are bigger structural inequalities that can't be addressed through UDL, but it can take you a long way there. It can take you beyond checklists and into actually thinking about the person. It's much more person-centered, isn't it? Yeah. And I think so the question was about structural, for those online, was about structural barriers. And I think I touched on it really briefly at the beginning. Those are generally things outside of the learning experience. They're about how people are recruited onto a learning experience. Everything from entry to attendance in person to those often are the bits which are whole institution challenges and take an awful lot longer to fix. But I think, in some places, we've had some success with some of it, partly probably the help of it being an apprenticeship business and access and barriers being removed is kind of very central to what it's about. But they are harder and they do take longer. But it's going to do some variations in assessment, give us a choice. I think one of the biggest challenges within our education structure to do is to have a quality assurance policy framework to see who gets an assessment to satisfy the requirements. There's a lot of very, very forward planning capacity. Before you even get a little bit of an understanding of people who you're walking into who you might be. I mean, have you come up with any solutions to that? Given that's the challenge, how do you make sure that we increase it but also adhere to credit framework? Yeah, so we do run degree apprenticeships and we do those in partnership with university. So we've got an extra layer of challenge which is it's a partner that we don't even have control of our own regs and our own framework. What's the reality of the answer? The reality is we tried to do some of this in our first validation of the program three years ago and sort of got told no. To be fairly honest, I think that the helpful thing is in that kind of time we've been able to pick some examples to build a bit more evidence and the second time we've just been able to go a little bit further. Not as far as maybe we've done in other types of provision, but we've been able to introduce much more openness and choice and it's not totally open, it's not 100% do whatever you want because it still has the equivalences. So we've ended up with that being one of the practical things we've been able to do is going, you could do an 1000 word essay or equivalence would be this. If it was a video, we'd have it as an equivalence here. So we've done that as a way to just try and do parity I guess across different methods and we've published those in module descriptors and in assessment briefs. But yes, I do totally have the experience that you've had which is it takes longer and it's harder for sure, but not impossible. We've got a question in on VVox. How do you deal with pushback of academics not showing interest in change to address inequalities? I'll let you have that one. Goodness me, what a question. So I think how do I solve pushback? I guess our experience of this has been as a centralized learning team which is probably again slightly different to universities where we are very centralized and we are able to have a bit more control is at times we have been a bit more able in our place to just say this is the direction we're taking things. So we are going blended on this program and that's a decision and a direction and we can go with it. I guess in other places, I think the best success we've had is where we've just started and done something with one person even if they're just an early adopter and I remember us putting Miro in during the lockdown. We had a lot of people saying this is going to be a disaster. I'm never using it and then we got what do we get? We got an original pack of like 10 licenses and what we found is once we started putting in the choice and participation is suddenly we had a weird word of mouth phenomenon between our teachers and trainers and we were being asked. I think we ended up with 100 licenses within three months because suddenly there was something happening and so I'd love to tell you I've solved how to resolve the partnership between subject matter experts and central learning teams. I think the reality is it's a kind of forever problem that actually probably goes fairly to the heart of our jobs and just trying to find the ways and it's very individual but particularly on UDL to be more specific about UDL I think we've done an awful lot in QA generally about inclusion and equity for a lot of it for staff actually and it's been incredibly well received as an initiative and I think that's been really helpful for us just with is most people who get into education are quite passionate about doing good for people and that's the hook we always lead with is we want to be inclusive we want to be a great educator we want to include as many people as possible and that's the hook we generally use with them and why probably UDL gets more traction than some other things we do. I think learner voice has a lot of traction as well doesn't it? It does help I'll come over with my radio mark because you can be heard. And when an institution has an EDI, equality, diversity and inclusion strategy does this help? Is it a leverage for delivering this kind of workshop? Yeah I mean for sure I think and we found our EDI policy was a bit like where I started where it was you know it was it was quite narrow and and so we feel that UDL take really stretches beyond a kind of classic EDI policy and does a lot more than that. We haven't had an offset inspection for three years but I'd be very hopeful that this would be something that you we could take into an offset inspection and be radically more you know beyond the kind of standard stuff they'd expect to see but yeah call us next year. I'll tell you how it's gone. Thank you and I'll realise we're out of time. I was going to say could a way of selling this would say that it could avoid some of the problems you have with individual adjustments for students. You know in flexibility at the point where I am my institution in some courses there is 40, 50, 60, 70 percent of students needing individual adjustments for assessment stuff can't cope this might be a way to avoid that. That's great I mean it's absolutely our experience yeah that's a really good point it massively gets rid of these and those individual adjustments are normally done at the last minute as well and so yeah it's been really helpful for that. Brilliant thank you everyone thank you for being open and having a go.