 Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in to the Straight Talk for Mods show and I'm Bruce Wilson, Executive Director of Service Render Incorporated and I'm so wonderful and Straight Talk for Mod is a program of Service Render Incorporated and I'm very honored today to be here with our honorable Lieutenant Governor David Zuckerman and also my friend. So Lieutenant Governor, how you doing, sir? Well I'm good and I hope to be Lieutenant Governor again at the moment I'm candidate for Lieutenant Governor, but I was Lieutenant Governor and certainly sounds good. Well you know what, once you know, once a Lieutenant Governor you're always one, right? Fair enough. You know when had I worked with you if you're in a marriage you'd say mayor to a person, right? Fair enough, absolutely. Alright then so so anyways sir I'm so happy that you know first of all that you're running again you know to to be Lieutenant Governor of this great state of Vermont and and I'm proud of you too you know because I know you got a lot going on in your life with the farm and you know your family and there's so much in but you know you have a lot of ideas and suggestions and you've done a lot for this state you know for many many many years. Appreciate it. I've always been one of your supporters, one of your personal supporters. So so why are you running again sir? Why am I running again? Well I I guess there's a lot of reasons I mean but if we look at some of the issues I've fought for for a long time I've not been resolved. We've got new major issues that are very urgent in this moment you know obviously the economic situation for most people is really hard whether it's finding housing rental or ownership the prices are going through the roof the climate we're very fortunate we have this incredible lake behind us I was just taking in some of the beauty and kind of meditating on it but at the same time we are not living on this planet in a way that's going to make it possible for our kids and grandkids to really live as fulfilling lives and and I want to fight for that and fight for some of the changes that we need to make either as individuals or socially and for policies and you know there's there are so many injustices and inequities in our society from financial to social and legal and we're sitting near the old police station you know there's some disparities in how we have law enforcement and so it's really you know you name which of those issues and granted the lieutenant governor doesn't make laws doesn't have a direct hand in the laws the way a governor does but at the same time the way I've always worked when I was a legislator when I was a house member and a senator was to really reach out across the state reach out across the park reach out into communities and really work as an ambassador with people so that their voices could influence the system and I do think as lieutenant governor with those networks all over the state we could influence what's going to happen all over the state and in the policymaking arena so I was honestly asked by a number of people last fall really deep into the winter more than the fall saying wait a minute we want your position on issues we want your activism we want your engagement to be back in that office so that we can continue to build to make Vermont better than all these issues so let's go back to the housing part God it's tough right and I think it's I know it's really tough in Vermont yeah and it's certainly tough across the country but um also so the thing is this you know you know the fair have the fair housing rate rate of people to lease and buy homes is it's credible upwards and a lot of people are you know can't use the word economically challenged you know I'm struggling struggling to afford this they rent on a place and it's kind of you know I think it's real weird when like and I'm just gonna say it because you know like if you got a place in the owner of in in Burlington and you got a place in the south end and you know in softened it's you know not not better why is it prices the same in the owner of it you know saying why is that well they're the same type of way well well me a lot of what's going on is it's the supply and demand realities of a capitalist system no doubt that's the bottom line and we have folks that believe we should just have unfettered capitalism and many of those folks are at the top end of the spectrum and they're making a lot of money off speculative housing markets off of exploiting all of us as consumers with various advertising makes us think we want something that we might not really need or want and yet they've convinced many many people that this system is good for everyday working people as well and there are others of us who believe that there may be benefits to capitalism but the whole foundation of capitalism is if you have money that money makes money and one of the ways it does it is if you have money it's easier to buy a property and then you can rent it in this moment for exorbitant rents or you can hold on to it while it then appreciates in value while everyday people aren't getting any of that and so some of us believe in some forms of regulation whether that's regulations on renting you know right now we're seeing a lot of long-term rent housing I was used to rent for a year long lease or a multi-year lease going into short-term rentals because you can make more money ready for four weekends and you can for a month and that's happening all over the state and so now you know younger people or people in transition who just want to rent for a few years before they buy there's not enough of that so rents are going through the roof and then Vermont has become a very attractive place to live we handled COVID well we have a better environment under the changing climate people know about Vermont from Ben Jerry's and Bernie Sanders and others and it's it's become a refuge for folks who believe in participatory democracy and actually voting rights and women's reproductive liberty I mean you name the number of things that make Vermont attractive that that hits that supply-demand issue and you know it's it's something that's really hard to mitigate quicker you know Vermont has put I think well over a hundred million dollars of the COVID relief money into affordable housing but that's going to take a few years to build we've been talking about regulating things like Airbnb's and VRBO's and short-term rentals but we haven't really gotten a handle on how to regulate those in a way that disincentivizes moving stuff out of long-term rental into short-term rentals which means workforce and younger people can't afford to so these are all the things that are in the sort of push me pull you mill you of where does government regulate and restrict pure free market capitalism in a way that helps protect everyday working people from what capitalism does all across this country one of the biggest places that Wall Street hedge fund investors are doing is investing in housing it's becoming a commodity not a basic need and basic right that's a problem people are being left behind sorry for the long answer but housing is no we love you everybody I'm sure love the answers that you give because you know you know a lot about those answers those questions so did you know and you probably do that Burlington in part of the COVID release are building 13 shelter parts I mean 30 in here right in right on to my Elmwood Street it's called the Elmwood shelter community okay and 30 of them it's gonna be built around the where near the coast office okay and a city on this parking lot double side parking lot and that's where it gonna be built and construction is gonna be starting really soon when you think about in a all tip supposedly temporarily temp temporarily which is which is a good thing to say because we are hopeful that if it's temporary for temple you're right there that means that these people that live there these individuals will go off to find better places live with their lives based on hopefully the help they will get through other nonprofits right so hopefully it's not just housing but then there's you know economic support services there might be mental health support services and educational services I mean there are a number of ranges of reasons why people end up houseless and living on the street or in the parks or you know hiding behind buildings in dark spaces at night to sleep and I think we all recognize that that may not be the healthiest for them and at times it may not be healthier for other members of the community and there's and there's reasons to try to help people I think we all want to do that some folks want to be out but many have fallen into the situation often through no fault to their own but the economic strife leads to a sort of a downward spiral so last thing you said about helping them with their own systemic needs you know education and jobs and you know housing things like that promise they are gonna build a resource center there whereas that I don't know exactly what it tells you know I'm hopeful that help them out with you know helping people with jobs this is what a system thing you know I think people need employees providers there to help them with those systemic needs in Manila and like educational things to like also learn about like your thinking errors and the patterns and things that you might fall on there it might maybe cause you to be in like more in a high risk or economic challenge or you know situations and I'm not saying that they all are but it's for following the hard times but I know from coming from Chicago that mostly the highest risk and economic challenge neighborhoods where high risk people are always individuals there with who's who lives in high risk who's been a part of high risk and have done things in high risk you know and so I'm a little concerned even though I'm concerned about the project and you know I think it's an awesome thing to have places for people with safe public ends then the battery part let me see that that tent goes over there right and I'll see the whole park sure and now in the woods and stuff like that where there I think it's more safe to stay at these it's a place it's on wood shelter community than in those places but I think you know it's still going to create some high risk that's what my own thinking is based on what I know yeah there's fear and risk certainly with this situation and with many aspects of our lives and I think it's legitimate to be nervous and it's also legitimate to be hopeful and we you know we have a lot of really excellent knowledgeable people who are I think involved with this and the goal would be that to keep those risks to a minimum you know we're often fearful of others that we don't know when you actually look at most harm done in society it's done by someone we do know and so I think it's legitimate to be afraid it's also legitimate to want to support the concept and you know support that people are going to do the work to help these folks because if we don't there's there's further danger if folks stay in these patterns we just unfortunately had a I think a death murder in city hall park right and you know we have to try to minimize that like yeah so not easy not easy so I think it's like if you're 24 murders or 23 murders and and guess what and you probably already know the um the epidemic the epidemic is that um they're all in that same area you know that same area as all those mostly all those shootings are in that same area and nothing too is that um where that you know the beautiful old enough and where I've lived for many years and so much this is incredible five people five small local businesses you know it's sort of in many ways uh the small community that we all cherish yeah people know each other on the street um you know a lot of times in bedroom communities people don't even know their neighbors that's true and I would say in the old north end people probably know their neighbors more than a lot of that it's not a culture and ethnicities and they're so incredible beautiful you know but it's also this is one of the highest risk neighbors in the whole town state of Vermont you know the old north and you know and and and and economically challenged you know too as well and so where these shelter community is being built it starts right off when the old in the uh like the old north end you know and so so what I want to ask you this lieutenant governor why in across the whole entire united states probably in the world that people when they started building up um like the projects in chicago they build them in the lowest income highs why this well the nuts and bolts of it is that people with more political clout folks that vote in higher numbers which neighborhoods finance campaigns more um tend to have more political voice and a lot of times I mean there have been affordable housing ideas put in for um shelter and they faced a lot of opposition because we have stigma and with that stigma comes fear uh and so there ends up being this long-term systemic so there ends up being this long-term systemic reality that there's more services in some of those neighborhoods and so then the argument is made put uh the places that will be housing these folks closer to where the services are and there's the argument of don't put that out here or in my neighborhood because it's a longer way on the bus or there aren't services and so these are the systemic systems that get put in place that then give different communities the argument so don't put it here put it over there um and so it's it's not a single reason um but it's it's this accumulation of where have we been putting services where we've been putting affordable housing where who has political clout uh and so it's a self-fulfilling set of circumstances aka the system so um I think if people don't want this in their neighborhoods and I think there's discussions as to why that's a legitimate or maybe something we should work on dispelling um it's partly participating in the system and knowing where the votes are you know when I said Shelburne I could have easily said some aspects of the south end or the new north and um but the other part of it is if we want people to have both access to services and access to jobs more of those jobs and more of those services are downtown um and so like I said it's it's partly systemic and it's partly practical so here's a funny story so in Chicago they built a lot of these um projects along I think it was a Robert Taylor homes around the lake and um and they um and then all sudden some person thought of wow all these projects is around the on the lake so let's start let's move these individuals to the suburbs because people from the suburbs move whatever reason they did to out of the city because of whatever whatever you know and so so we're gonna move the people so the people in the suburbs move back to the waterfront becomes the the valuable property to develop right so they tore down all the a lot of those um um projects and moved those individuals to the suburbs to the people well I mean part of it is we should really be looking at a more equal distribution yes we gotta we gotta be living with each other we gotta be um in community with each other you know I think when we live in more mixed communities whether they're economically diverse whether they're culturally diverse then I think a lot of the um stigmas and misrepresentations can also then be broken down you know it's very easy to paint some group of people in a certain light if you don't know anybody who's in that category and um so I think that's that's a piece of what we need to be looking at but that is a more expensive way to do it yeah clustering people building denser housing is a less expensive way to do it and government really since Reagan and Reaganomics has had fewer and fewer resources for so many of the things we need in society from our education system to our roads and bridges to our human infrastructure and the investments in people and we're now suffering the consequences of that over many many decades and we've seen the concentration of wealth go through the roof we have the most disparate economic circumstances that we've had in this country since just before the great depression with the wealthiest people having huge huge percentages of our society I think the wealthiest four or five people in this country have as much wealth as the least wealthy 50 percent of this country and so we have um seen government perpetuate policies to concentrate wealth which have also created the on-the-ground problems we're facing today and we've seen more and more segregation by by culture as much as by policy um but by economics fundamentally and if we don't work to shift that trend then we will see pods like this placed in certain neighborhoods as opposed to all of society recognizing that all of these issues are for all of us to solve collective so um I've been fortunate you know as one person is African-American and the person delivered from monts in 1989 to be appointed you know I came here the same year that's right all right yeah it's the whitest state in america still still is pretty damn white it's all right it's all good but uh I've been I've been fortunate to be appointed um to the human rights commission that's commissioner to the um to by the governor and um I'm also um um inclusive and belonging I was appointed by the city council and mayor and monewski that's on the green mount transit advisory board for adjusted equity diversity and inclusion um also with um chicken county regional planning with a lot on the plate equity advisory and um monewski school district um anti-racism my question is and I'm so I'm very fortunate to be able to help make some decisions and give some ideas suggestions and learn from others by the ways people should work or everybody should work together in Vermont can I flip a question on you before you ask me do you feel as though your perspective and ideas are respected on those committees and do you feel that are based on just raw numbers and demographics do you are you or do you feel like you're a token member or do you feel fully included in those conversations yeah so those are good questions yeah so first of all I as a person who um look like me a person of color you know um I believe that um and in my character in my personality as you know I'm straight up with anybody who's with the president of the United States and I'm gonna be just like we're human beings so I think um when I aspect people are very fortunate to have me around and first of all in the race in Chicago we've been through the civil rights movement you know as well you know I've been and I can I see things I understand things um I'm anyone who um will put me on these inventions as a person you know like a token it's got they they but they don't know more than they bargain they don't know me right so do I think um by your peers on those committees does it feel like a good set of people around the table well the thing is that um you know um as as you like we just discussed like I think Vermont is like the second one is getting out maybe it's the first deal so my peers around the table are not really you know they're my peers but not really my they're humans around the table but they don't have the experience right they're not people who look like me you know I'm saying so so I don't think they quite understand like uh like for instance I say this all the time that like I don't go to school with you I don't go to church with you I don't live next door to you you know we're we're not uh I might see the grocery store whatever so we really don't know each other to communicate a lot of times individuals know about me through um through the TV do um stereotypical ways right and so they don't really know me until they know me you know so yeah so so I say to people around the table with me who are learning and probably all these boards and that I sit on um a lot of them especially the Vermont transit I'm on I'm on that advisory team that I um it's a lot of people who um who um from other countries so they they they have their own they know what's going on they they feel they all you do is a personal color you know and you get it you know and so they they make good I have good answers um so for me in um uh in uh let me see the bottom line is the um the um outcome measurements I think in that uh I believe that um that um it's not you know we're not nowhere near we're any outcome where we need to be there is no outcome measurements you know you know what yeah lieutenant governor um sir um the thing for me let me let me just say this to you is that um you know at one time there wasn't no you know when I went to um college whatever high school I never heard about no um diversity equity and inclusion or justice equity I never heard about that you know and they probably haven't made you can major that in college now and I've never seen that no major life in college and so now ever since with the issues with the people of color with the police you know Black Lives Matter and Floyd you know everybody needs to hire or some equity director you know and they and that's probably around the world you know and um what what what is their job really really equity director what is their qualification how do you hire a person like that you know I don't care I tell you this I don't care if you have 150 PhDs you know you cannot be an equity director if you don't have life experience be right you know you know you can't you gotta like I can talk to any white person in America and then I can tell them some of my plights or some of your typical things that happen to me or there's some racist things happen to me you feel me you understand you know it don't feel good but you ain't gonna feel in your heart like somebody if I'm telling you another person look like me so so a person who have life experience are the best equity directors ever you know and so and also and I've said this many times I don't I believe that um companies hearties and equity directors or diversity equity inclusion directors is because if they don't have one they need they have to lose what do you have a DEI do you have a DEI policy do you have a do you also are they gonna then do something real with it is it just performative or is it real now you're talking token right exactly right so so now I believe that totally all the anti-racism and human rights commission commissioner I am all those things I believe you know I mean I still believe that it's um it's a you know if you it's just a tokenism I don't believe that um there's a anybody should have an equity director at any of their firms or anywhere I believe that they should come up you know there's some smart people around the country you know there's people who who like regular people like me who can come to and talk about um diversity equity and inclusion you know and how I feel and stereotypical so I believe that if you you know I don't need to teach or tell a white person that I need to tell white person that but their white person also need to tell me what they think how they feel what their culture is how their ancestry or what they learned through it I can say what their beliefs are from coming up through their generations right and why and they you know a lot of them will tell you that they didn't they don't believe that they've been stereotypical then they don't know they're unaware they're unaware we're unaware of our biases yeah for sure and we all have biases and so so together all of us need to sit in the same room and come up with these answers that's the only way we're gonna make a difference I can't I don't need to come up with the answer if people look like me and then and then um try to teach the white person and how stupid is that when white boys all need to be together and come up with the same and so this board these boards are on um have that mixture of folks and are those conversations happening well you know there's always a agenda on every week at every meeting right right so um so who sets the agenda right and there's always a so we do some um you know they do the best they can for what for the information that they get in seven hours and we're bringing maybe you can help the chair with the agenda well you know I you know I think I'm gonna I'm gonna be doing something that um with the inclusive belonging um yeah because we said we know and I'm glad to take it out I said the same thing to them and um and I think everybody you know had some answers around that too and that so we're not gonna be a chair at the inclusive belonging because it's a new it's a new commission yeah so everybody commissioners there which I think is like five of us um will make a set of sort of consensus agenda and right and so I've been yeah so so so we work with the city manager and we work with uh one of um one of the city counselors in the in the city clerk it's an air part of our group and so um in the mayor it's an American scene not and so um so I'm glad that we decided that that's gonna happen that we're gonna all of us make an agenda and so as we because it's new we only had like two meetings so far and as we go forth then I'll be you know I'm you know one thing that I said to them too is like bringing in people like other people you know other cultures other religions other um relationships you know peers and um that have so they can voice their ideas and you know people like even I said oh shit I didn't even know I didn't know that you know how can we work together make sure that that we don't you know that we make it better for everybody and all it takes is is everybody just talking to their peers and you know how I go as a vote card you know you can you can do all kind of yeah you need the votes but um no I appreciate it I just uh I often hear about the different committees that are made and people on the committees and the question is are people heard are the issues able to be not only brought up but then appropriately addressed are the changes and policies you know being implemented um and you know I didn't mean to sidetrack us that's all right and I'm glad to hear what you had and then I want to add too is that I'm one of the things about um justice equity diversity and inclusion what people are saying is that they uh want want to have like all people in the back room you know I mean to make anything and for me I'm like get rid of that damn back room man you know what I'm saying we need a back room for you know what I'm saying let's get rid of it nobody needs to be back there let's make the decision and in the open because a lot of times like and fortunately and unfortunately I've been in those back rooms you know what I'm saying right and um and um people you think when you come out to um the big room where everybody's sitting that you've got a chance to to be something and whatever it is you know sure and then they have already made their decision in the back room who's gonna get the job who's gonna you know with the money's gonna yeah a lot of people have already made that that decision already and they come out there like nothing happened you know like we didn't make this decision and you know people are hopeful and then Johnny gets a job or Jane gets a job you know what I'm saying that we already they already knew who's gonna get the job and um you know and you know and I'm gonna tell you something since you asked me that question I don't believe this will ever gonna change it's not gonna change I mean that's been the way unfortunately for a long time although often the world but not just in white culture the rest of us in a lot of different cultures that's what I mean I think it's an interesting dilemma because on the one hand having been a policymaker for 18 years um I would say at least that my experience in Montpelier was the vast majority of it was in the public setting and the conversation around the table around do we include this language or not and having committee votes um on the other hand each person around the committee is an advocate they're not a good for their town they're not a good for their people they're not a good for their perspective whatever it is as legislators or as as you know advisors on these different committees um at some point decisions need to be made and with the different perspective that you bring you want the decision to be in a way that fits the world as you know it and might solve challenges in the way that you know it and you know on your way in or out of the meeting or at coffee with one of your colleagues you you advocate for why something is should be a certain direction so is that coffee the back room you know or is it where you try to advocate so there's a little bit of both and and I don't know that absolute all of it most of it should not be back room or coffee table or whatnot um but sometimes when there's an impasse sometimes people are able to go talk a little more quietly to try to figure out what's the deeper root for the impasse and is there a way to create a solution that both sides can live with and can those two people bring it back for the rest of the group so there's a little bit of that that sometimes has to happen yeah that's true but not so much as a back room or any payoffs to make it happen but maybe not in the limelight um but most of it I've experienced and I think should be a more public conversation one thing one thing that I appreciate about myself is that I'm telling all my youth that I mean what must happen they will tell you is that um I you know I get like I tell them I say I'm not a doctor lawyer or an entity you know and so if I if I need those answers I'm gonna go to the doctor lawyer in the chief of the lieutenant governor if I need those answers that's why I'm gonna get the answers from from the person who knows who does the job and so I don't make decisions on like my youth advisory boards around I don't make decisions on youth issues without talking to my youth board president you know I don't make decisions about a doctor lawyer and I talk to maybe Dr. Lewis first or something but um or lieutenant government I'm gonna talk to you um without doing that so when I'm in the back room or in the I mean the coffee house I don't be making decisions with people I'll be trying to figure out what's good I mean how can we work together right I'll be synergistic proactive in trying to collaborate and I'm very proud of myself for doing it because I don't feel good about making decisions about something that other people without hearing from the person who should be helping maybe add more history or knowledge about it whether it's lived experience or education or both yeah and so let's talk about youth yeah yeah let's get that on the table lieutenant governor so um youth are so important to us and we created 2003 probably remember youth on boards for the city of Burlington now it's part of now we just did a new resolution for youth on boards and city of Burlington it was approved in the in and out of the sleep at city council you more more more commit more committees they can sit on and more and voting rights and that's it now it's happening we help them say sorry Burlington it's in s's yeah or it's not in s it's quite it's working in s's but it's in muski and um and so we're very happy happy that youth on boards has been people appreciate youth on boards and so youth are so important you know I think everything we do is for some youth and some new whatever some youth do do for some new elementary school kid or something um so how are they gonna how are they gonna make you work for you forever you know I think we when we met you was a Beth Rosensky one of my uh wow interns back in the day and um and I forget what we what you did with us I don't remember about but it was yeah yeah that was years ago you know and Beth was like she was like dedicated when she was my um actually she was like one of my coordinates and she's like she's incredible today with her community activity yeah yeah um so so why do you how do you fit in on your government sir how will you fit in well a few things I've uh when I was lieutenant governor we definitely had some interns where they could learn more about how the system worked and get engaged in really understanding um how to use their voice for most effective change but also I've really enjoyed going to elementary school groups and high school groups talking with and answering questions from young people about the system you know the our governmental system has been um both knocked down and and naysayed by the sort of more conservative side which just says government is bad um for a long time and I would argue an agreement that our government has failed our policymakers and I didn't win the battles I was fighting so I failed too to really shift how government works to be more effective for everyday people including our youth and um some of the ways I've talked to youth and listen is trying to help empower them to the idea that right now in policymaking young people have the opportunity for a louder voice than they used to have and the reason I would say that is you know a lot of young people feel like well if you're 18 or under 18 you can't vote therefore you have no voice but we have methods of communication now where young people could email or social media their legislators or their city counselors or their commissioners and say hey I hope you're thinking about this issue and I would love to hear your views on it and if you excuse me I apologize for being farming and getting on and doing politics I'm just tired all the time but but if um so I apologize but but you could as a younger person 16 14 send a note to your policymaker they don't know if you can vote they don't know if you do vote they don't check but they've got a personalized note or letter asking them about some issue or to get involved with you and they should respond if they don't ask them again and say you know I sent you a note a week ago I recognize you're really busy but I hope you'd get back to me on this because it's important to me if they don't again then you say you know I've been trying to reach you um I don't know you know I'll try you by leaving you a phone message as well but I hope you will treat my question with respect and get back to me with an answer and if they don't then at some point you say well I'm gonna post the front porch forum that I've tried to reach you two or three times you have neglected or chosen or maybe I have failed to communicate with you in a way that you you read or cat but um it's really disappointing to me that you're not giving me your opinion or your attention as one of your constituents and I tell you when a when a city counselor or a legislator um sees a post or hears about the fact that they've been sort of called out after multiple respectful attempts for for good dialogue uh they're gonna respond pretty quick right because you don't want to be in that position um so partly it's how to empower young people to be involved in the policy making and through their representative democracy whichever form it is city state level to um affect the outcome so if you care about the climate if you care about economic inequities in your neighborhood or in our society if you care about policing if you care about education you know you could name whatever it is and um and you can engage in how that policy is made and we do such a bad job of teaching that through civics and through those of us in these roles um that we have to rebuild that that people have influence um more so than most other systems is it as much influence as we'd like is it always hurt you know to the old north enders have less influence than the south enders and therefore things happen in one neighborhood and not another well this is a self-fulfilling and perpetuating circumstance and if we if we get more people involved and using that voice through policy and through communication um then maybe some of those disparities will start to be addressed so i have to go back to um my quickly um diversity equity and inclusion so sure how do you how do you how do you think we're gonna make a you know a difference with that you know i mean i think when you look at so many of these issues they stem from systemic economic injustice and inequity and right now when you look at who is uh economically struggling in our society it's people of all stripes but it's disproportionately within each population it's disproportionately women it's disproportionately people of color it's disproportionately trans and non-binary people and so therefore if we work to address economic inequity we will work to disproportionately address those economic inequities that are hitting those communities harder but also those in the power structure really want finger pointing they want poor white people pointing at immigrants and pointing at trans folks and pointing at communities of color and pointing at you know women as the reason that they're struggling right and this is a narrative that is fomented by those who firmly believe in concentration wealth that you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps even though it is shown statistically that if you're in a certain economic class you always never move up to another class no matter how hard you work no matter um how hard you you know put other aspects of your side your family or your kids it is really hard to move between classes so unless we address some of that then we won't be able to address the finger pointing where people blame those people for my struggle right when the system is holding you down no doubt about it it's not those people or those people and um so I think we really have to address the economic injustices while also shining light on how these systems over time have perpetuated these inequalities have perpetuated these segregation in different ways um but they're all interrelated and they're all related to the fact that there's some people who live way high on that hill that don't have any of these realities in their life um and they don't want to see them they don't want to deal with them and they they move to to protected areas to do it that's that's the system in a nutshell now do we have people in vermont with resources who are willing to pay more or who um are willing to put their money where their mouth is to try to challenge some of these inequities and injustices yes we do we're probably luckier in vermont more people willing to do that than elsewhere but the numbers still speak and uh and we still have these challenges so um as a human rights commissioner um good thing about that is having that position is it is that um it's just we follow have we have to follow the law we have laws that we have to follow and there's um and um but not everybody has to follow them equally that's what i'm saying so when we try to um make decisions all our steps on the status of the law so vermont human rights commission has to follow things on the law and so what do you my question is do you think that um there should be some more laws made around university equity includes because a lot of people they are not going to really go on the top go out of their tradition what should i say right of who they are and what they i think there's a combination there's certainly room for more laws at the same time we're not enforcing the laws we have you know we need stronger leadership to say wait a minute we have laws on the books that are being enforced you know george floyd was trying to pass a counterfeit twenty dollar bill and lost his life you know donald trump has duped people out of millions and billions of dollars and he's still walking free he has he has stolen top secret documents stolen and i'll say that because you are not supposed to take them with you period right um and he's walking free today and will continue to do so probably for a long time so and there are lots of other people who um walk through life with privilege where they have the ability to pay for lawyers to get them off of things that other people are thrown in jail for 20 years for so the first thing we have to do is resolve why our laws are not being applied in a just and fair manner as well as maybe tweak some of those laws so those folks can't get away with it right and so we aren't disproportionately punishing people um because of poverty through because that's really you know um race is involved and poverty is involved with the disproportionate enforcement of our laws no doubt about it yeah well we can't leave out what donald trump said he can he can he can kill some he can kill someone out of it yeah he didn't want to do with a woman you know yeah i mean he has stated how unjust the laws are by his own statements i mean it's just it's blatant and it's right in front of everybody and that's why people do feel such cynicism about whether it'll be changed and i think it's fair to be cynical it's only fair yeah anyway so um yeah so um but hopefully we make progress and we gotta make progress faster than we are you know we gotta make progress faster than we do and so i just you know i'm very hopeful you know um vermont has been like first on everything you know to do everything you know many many many many ways and um you know i think uh they um vermont love people they love the neighbor they love community they love being activists and volunteering you know i've learned lessons i've been in since 89 exactly you know and so um well i'm hopeful that the it'll get better the whole thing about it's got it's about communication and education right so i think like like i said i'm not an extra neighbor and i would add self-reflection self-reflection yes sir right and especially for people that walk through the world as i do yeah uh you know privilege white male and positions of power with reasonable uh economic circumstances uh have to reflect on what got us here and it's not about guilt it's about understanding and when you understand it then you can start to see how the system needs to be changed and or how one can apply one's own resources to try to foster some of that change but you know um i think so anyway i didn't mean to drop you know no no no no self-reflection that was that is very it's like like might just say the man in the mirror there you go for real you know you got to look in the mirror and um see what's good to me yeah every day every day and actually and say how did i get here to do another musician talking heads you know how did i get here and um who are these people around me who is this wife when am i why am i in this house no no and uh it is both our own hard work and the hard work of those before us and some of the circumstances that made it so that that hard work was rewarded more for people like me than it was for people like you sure and therefore how do we change the system so a hard work is rewarded to everybody equally on that uh effort they put in but also how do we write some of the wrongs of history and and help foster more opportunity to folks who have been left behind or disproportionately enforced by our laws or disproportionately impacted by housing laws or housing practices or educational laws or educational practices so that we can change that trajectory for uh more folks in a more positive way okay so let's go back to the shelters right yeah sorry big stuff no no no so yeah everything you say is correct and i feel it's a hard hard fell for me you know when you say that because i know how you operate and that's how this these are the ways you operate period and i make mistakes i'm not perfect by a long shot you know none of us none of us but but let me ask you something um so they say that the temp dose i don't want to cook they was calling them pods and then they said my one of my assistants um she's over there um this but we changed the name because we couldn't stand keep calling the pods whatever but anyway because um we're gonna be doing some part on the ground in that area right but um so they say it's a temporary temporarily that's they're gonna be there yes so i think when you spend politics is is something else so it could mean two things it could mean people are going to live that temporarily or the or those shelters are going to be that temporarily right and um and i and um and so i already know that two things could happen that those those individuals who's going to live there are temporarily and then i and then because they only got 1.2 to do that project um after that money is gone somebody's got to pay for right for the council to keep going right so who we gotta wrap up okay sure so so um um what do you do with if you have to wrap up the project if you'd have 1.2 if you you know gotta pack up the shelters what do you do well i i mean i'm not the mayor and i don't know that what the city budget is but as a community the community decide do they want to make the investment to if that program is successful to keep investing in that program and if they do is that money gonna come from cutting other programs which may or may not be effective so you gotta look at that and um and or raise revenue and i would argue from those who can afford it property taxes are not the best way to raise revenue so um so those are the kinds of questions the city's gotta wrap away but we gotta wrap i gotta go because that's what you want to say before you go just thank you and that folks have questions they can reach out through my website zuckerman f or vt zuckerman for vermont.com and uh you know happy to answer questions people have they can call the office they can email and we'll get back yes sir right on yes sir