 Welcome. Aloha. Thanks so much for joining us on Think Tech Hawaii. Today we've actually got two of the leading and most experienced attorneys in mask claims, class action claims in Hawaii to talk with us about the Maui wildfire situation. We've got Ilana Waxman of the Gallagher, DeRobertis and Waxman firm. Ilana is actually from Maui, a lot of history there, and Mark Davis, founder and senior partner at Davis-Levin Livingston. And both of Ilana and Mark have done a great deal of work in victim representation, in victim relief and compensation work for large mask claims and class claims, as well as individuals. So welcome. Hey, Ilana, Mark, Ilana, you want to start us off and kind of put this in context? Tell us a little bit about Lahaina. And what makes it unique? Yeah. So Lahaina, as many of you may know, Lahaina was the ancient or the original capital of the kingdom of Hawaii. It is an incredibly historic town. And the current community is also, it's a very historic plantation community. It's a multi-generational community. It's an immigrant community. And it is a town that has just absolutely been devastated. The scope of the loss is hard to put into words. So just in a nutshell, the history, tradition, culture of Lahaina, how would you characterize that? You know, it's a place with very, very deep roots in the Native Hawaiian community. It's a place with history in terms of the missionaries, in terms of the wailing days, in terms of plantations, and now tourism. And Mark, your thoughts. I'm sure you spent a great deal of time on Maui and with Maui clients as well. Well, I think that what is rather unique and kind of devastating about this whole experience for Alana and I, who basically spend our careers dealing with individuals who have had catastrophic experiences in their lives. And as you can imagine, day by day we hear all sorts of extraordinary stories that are quite devastating. But in this particular case, you know, what's been going on the past 30 days in which, you know, our phones have been ringing from morning till night, hearing one terrible story after another. You just can't help but be very touched and moved by the drama and the devastation that occurred there. And I think for many of us who are in this world of attempting to represent clients, this feels quite different. You know, this is personal. You know, it's not simply an objective evaluation of cases. It's, you know, I think we're just struck by this kind of intangible aspiration to try to do what we can for these people. And it's been, you know, I think quite an emotional experience for not only the people that suffered it, but also all of those, all of us who are involved in trying to do something that is, you know, constructive. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. So Alana, we know that this is a pervasively damaging disaster. Housing, health care, loss of income, schools in education, transportation, literally every aspect of daily life and destruction of the records and information information and resources that people would need to be able to even deal with any of those losses, much less all of them. So what are we looking at here for relief and recovery as the highest priorities in your perspective? Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's so much assassinated. I would say that the, obviously the highest priority right now is people to get long-term shelter, housing, but also, yes, replacing documents, pedigree and loss, identification. Yeah. And we're having a few issues with your connection, unfortunately, but I'm sure other areas, loss of income, employment, those things. So what can attorneys do to help? Well, I think that, you know, there's, I mean, typically what we try and do in situations like this or others is, you know, take a look at the, you know, the recovery of damages that, you know, tends to assist in the recovery of losses and so on. But it's not always that easy because to me there's a multi-level of needs that are required of this thing. And so as Alana pointed out, there are issues that are compelling issues with regard to shelter, food, clean water, replacement of documents and, you know, identifying the survivors, all of which kind of, you know, is the front lines of trying to, you know, have the first step in moving towards some level of recovery. And then, of course, a second level is to make, is to try to figure out a way in which people are compensated for their losses. It's not certainly an easy issue. It's not something that's totally clear. And as you are well aware from the media that there are, you know, multiple investigations going on everywhere with regard to trying to answer the question, you know, why did this happen? And, and of course, in any situation like that, there's always lots of, you know, finger pointing and, but there's a lot of, you know, energy and resources being placed into that investigation. And of course, the issue which is perhaps looming over this thing is whether ever there's going to be adequate resources, you know, to compensate these folks in a manner that is appropriate or a reasonable indication. And of course, those of us who are looking at this from 30,000 feet and we're just, you know, time to take a look at the broad approach. And I think that some extent the governor has voiced the same views is that, you know, there's, that's going to be an extraordinary challenge. So Elana, what are you seeing and hearing from people on Maui as their top priority concerns? I mean, as you said, you know, jobs and income, but housing, housing is the number one concern. People are very afraid that they're going to lose their entire community. That Lahaina is going to become, you know, my apologies to the Honolulu people, but another white key key that the sort of multi-generational, native Hawaiian working class community that has been there for the last couple hundred years is going to be replaced by fancy condos and luxury housing development because it is such valuable real estate and such a beautiful place. And so people really want to make sure that the community as a whole is protected and that people have the opportunity to rebuild. And there are so many layers to that. But as Mark said, that is going to take resources because this is a community of people who, you know, one of my friends who works in one of the resorts out there, he told me after the fire, you know, that his guys said he works with, everyone was just scraping by, and now they know more scrapers, they know more nothing. So it's a situation where, you know, really there are a lot of needs, there are mental health needs, but there is a huge need for monetary resources. That's what's going to let people stay and rebuild. So that's a huge priority. And that's a really important point to understand is that, yeah, monetary relief and support and compensation are critical, but right now people need a place to live, they need basic daily living need resources to be met. And, you know, I think in terms of what we can do as lawyers, you know, there's, there's absolutely the entire infrastructure in the economy needs to be rebuilt. And that includes the legal infrastructure, even though you might not think of it that way. You know, there are insurance issues, there are land title issues, there are immigration issues, there are family law issues that are coming up in everybody's life because kind of all of the, all of the normal everyday structures that were in place are, you know, they don't work anymore because the fire came through and destroyed so much. And so in a lot of people to rebuild all of those parts of their lives, really the law plays a very important role throughout. And we as lawyers have a lot of power to help people kind of walk through those different problems. And that's a really valuable insight, Ilana and Mark. So what do you think need to be important considerations and elements for the new model that doesn't repeat the vulnerabilities and the inequities? Well, I think, I think the community of Lahaina has spoken loud and clear about, you know, the fact that they intend and want to be at the table as the future is mapped out for rebuilding. And I have to, you know, acknowledge that some of our politicians have been, including the president of the United States has been, you know, receptive and sensitive to that issue. It's easy to kind of speak about these issues because words are cheap, but it seems like that at least the process commences on a common belief that the community of Lahaina must be the masters of their own destiny in terms of how this, you know, property is built. I mean, Lahaina had these unique characteristics of having, you know, buildings extended, you know, on pylons out into the harbor, very, some of the many restaurants on Broad Street were just, you know, almost inches from the bay, from the harbor. And all of those things, of course, under existing codes are not supposed to be rebuilt under the same circumstances. So I think government's got to be a big player in recognizing that despite their, you know, concerns, setbacks of the building, you know, that exist in normal situations, this is far from a normal situation. And perhaps one of the ways the county and others can, you know, contribute to this is to recognize that the character of Lahaina, you know, to be recaptured in some shadow of what it was has to get around some of these very difficult environmental protections that had generally served to cover all development in the state. So that's a picture that needs to unfold. You know, and you make a really good point because in addition to helping individuals and groups with compensation, how can lawyers help the community have a voice in the relief, recovery, the rebuilding? Ilana, your thoughts? Well, I think, I think Mark put it very well when he talked about having the community have a, have a seat at the table. I think people in Lahaina, especially in the native Hawaiian community, but the local community generally, there is a feeling that, you know, they've been displaced and pushed out and not listened to. And I think it is very important to kind of have, you know, members of the community organizations that have so far really led the relief effort for them to continue to be represented, you know, in how Lahaina is going to be rebuilt. And I think we as attorneys, you know, we do have, we have a voice, you know, that might be louder than, than some of the other community members when it comes to government officials and legal processes. And I think if we are very mindful of trying to listen to the community and help make sure that community members voices are heard and that they do have a seat at the table, I think that could be a very important role for attorneys to play. Mark, what are your thoughts? No, I think you are right. I think that, you know, this is only going to happen in any kind of a logical or sane development over a period of time if everybody kind of recognizes that, you know, there has to be a give and take process among all the governmental entities. I think to some extent, you know, the governor, when he, you know, was talking about some types of a claims process that recognized that everybody, you know, has got to kind of participate in that process. And I think it's only going to be as a result of a very unique and difficult collaboration that, you know, and it's going to be divisive and there will be, you know, disagreements. And there will be people with money who want to invest and there will be people who, you know, might have contrary viewpoints. You know, it will be a long and difficult process. And Hawaii, unfortunately, has had a history of, you know, struggling with these kind of issues like a lowest stadium and other places like that that are, you know, places for kind of logical, thoughtful redevelopment that, you know, all the various interests. So, you know, I think that nobody's got, certainly not me, you know, has a magic formula that can, you know, put all the people in. People need to be heard about their concerns and recognize that there are opposing viewpoints. And it's a process that, you know, hopefully some of our, you know, cultural approach to aloha and other things might manifest, you know, a result that is actually thoughtful and constructive. I think in terms of how the mass torts process and claims process possibly play a role in that. So, the idea that the governor is proposed of a claims fund, I don't know what that will look like or how that will work. But I do think, Mark, for us as plaintiff attorneys and claimants attorneys, that really is also an opportunity where, you know, I know we represent a lot of clients who are more, people ask, you know, they're not necessarily the people who have huge reviews or people whose voices are usually heard in these development issues. But I think kind of they are being represented by council and they do have an important role in this process. I think that actually becomes a good place not to say that all of our clients will agree about what should be done. But it does, it does give us a chance to represent a lot of different voices in the community that. Yeah, no, I agree. And I think the Hawaii bar, our local lawyers kind of have a unique position in this thing because we are governed not only by doing the best job we can for our clients, but we also kind of recognize a cultural and patriotic, you know, a duty to our community which sometimes may conflict with, you know, how we typically approach some of these issues. So I think that, you know, from my own personal standpoint, to me, that feels right. That's something that I endorse. And I think that, you know, part of what we have to do is the local Hawaii bar is to, you know, steer this hordes of lawyers that are used to doing mass tort work into the direction that best benefits not only our clients, but also the community and and and has a recognition of the limitation of resources that will be, you know, on the table and, you know, part of the issue. You know, and that's a really important insight, both of you, Elana and Mark, that we've seen the 9-11 disaster, we've seen the BP oil spills, we've seen the California wildfires, but in none of those have we really seen the victim's relief and compensation work and funding and process connected with the community relief and recovery. And you've raised the possibility, can Hawaii's lawyers contribute to building and making that connection in this situation? The lawyers throughout the state, and especially on Maui, have already been an integral part of some of these relief efforts, fundraising, you know, making donations of tangible goods, and then also pro bono legal services. You know, I've spent a number of days out in the family relief centers in Kana Pali with a lot of other members of the Maui Tony bar, giving people, you know, free legal information. There are legal hotlines that have been happening for the past few weeks, you know, statewide. And yeah, I think there's just a lot that is coming from the legal community. So, I mean, Jackie, you said, can we help? And the answer, as Alon explained, is that we indeed can. But more so, we have to, that's our obligation. And, you know, we spend our lives pursuing hard claims against third parties. But I think that there's a greater good overhangs the entire analysis of the conflict that, you know, I think it's something that many of us who have lived here our whole lives and, you know, practiced here for all this number of years, you know, compels us to be put as part of the calculus, you know, as we move forward. I was, you know, a million years ago, I was part of what was called the TLC, the Trial Lawyers Care Program for 9-11. And that was the claims fund that the United States government had absolutely, you know, no, probably no liability whatsoever. But nonetheless, compelled them to, you know, create this fund. And there were, you know, certainly some people who believe that, you know, they wanted to pursue the typical liability claims that might exist for, you know, building deficiencies or other issues. But, you know, to me, the national bar came together. All 50 states, there were lawyers in Hawaii that helped represent some of the victims, plane crash in 9-11. And, you know, and it got done. And I know the, it's going to be a very complicated process, but something worth pursuing, I would think. You know, and you both raised a really good and important point, which is that, as you know, from your decades of work representing victims, victims of injury, harm, damage, loss, tend to be from the more vulnerable, the more underserved sectors of the population and less able to manage their rehabilitation and resiliency without that kind of assistance. And lawyers can play an important role in that. But as you've also pointed out, that group represents a really core part of the heart of the community, whose voice has far too often not been heard, given weight. And this may be an opportunity that you're pointing out for Hawaii's lawyers to try and change that model somewhat and get that voice out front and center. Does that make any sense? That is my goal. You know, I'm from Maui, born and raised. And I have seen, you know, a lot of people in our community have been pushed out by the high cost of living and there's been a lot of loss. And LaKaina has been such a resilient and tight-knit community. I want to see it rebuilt in a way that lets it stay local, stay Hawaiian, stay true to Hawaii's roots. And so, whatever I can do as an attorney to make that happen, that is absolutely my goal. And I think Chuck, you make a good point that not only should we review this as, you know, our responsibility, I think we need to look at it as an opportunity. And I think that if the lawyers who are involved on the front lines of these issues, those of us who are talking constantly to, you know, clients that have suffered these tremendous losses, we need to do what we can do, but we ought to want to do the same thing by virtue of the fact that this is an opportunity to kind of show what lawyers can do and what we should do. And that's a great point because you're talking about making that voice, making that influence, making those values and interests a central factor in the relief and the recovery and the rebuilding and how Hawaii lawyers have a unique role and, as you say, responsibility to do that. Are there factors in Hawaii that give that some particular elements of hope? Well, I mean, my own viewpoint is that, you know, Hawaii has always been a very special place. In terms of the bar, it's a place where people know each other, you know, in terms of litigation, like big cities, we, you know, we are remarkably civilized in terms of the way we interact with each other. And, you know, the bar is growing, we're not always big, but, you know, these are all the factors that kind of, you know, lead to a feeling that, you know, we can work together. Elana, your perspective? Yeah, well, I think, as Mark says, Hawaii is a small and tight-knit community. And I don't think there are probably many people in the state that have not been touched by this disaster in one way or another. People have friends, people have family, people know and love behind that. So I think there's a lot of room for creative solutions. Yeah, and I think you've alluded to another point that you mentioned earlier. I mean, we have people in our leadership here. Chief Justice Rectonwall in the judiciary, the governor who, as I understand, is consulting with Andy Weiner, who has history of not only having done work for victims' representation, but also former chief of staff for Senator Schatz, and somebody who may help be responsive to putting together that collaborative voice for the far too long vulnerable and underhood. So any wrap-up thoughts? Jack, thank you for, you know, starting this conversation or continuing this conversation. I think that's the heart of, you know, how we are able to connect with each other and, you know, consider out-of-the-box alternatives. Elana? I'm just very hopeful that we will be able to find a way to rebuild behind us and make it better. You know, and Elana Waxman and Mark Davis, here are two of the people who, for many years, have been leaders in not only representing victims, but in enabling them to rebuild community connections and resilience. And the importance of exactly that connection is exactly what the two of you do well and have highlighted here. Thank you so much for joining us today. Think Tech Hawaii. Maui Strong.