 And one second, once again, if you just joined us, you wanna say good morning, good afternoon, or good evening in the chat, we'd love to see where everybody is zooming in from today. And thank you for joining us. All right, good morning, everyone. Once again, please let us know where you're dialing, zooming in this from this morning in the chat. We're keeping an eye on it. It's great to see people from Europe and Amsterdam and London, New York City, Tripoli and Brazil and Montreal. What a global community we have. My name is Daniela Barbosa and I'm the Executive Director of the Hyperledger Foundation. And I have the honor of celebrating with you all today our Hyperledger Foundation eighth year anniversary. We have a great amount of speakers and really some great topics around where Hyperledger is today and where we are going. In numerology, if you know, the number eight represents victory, prosperity and overcoming challenges. And it's seen as an indicator of wealth and fortune in Chinese and other Asian traditions, embodying the idea of flourishing and expansion, something that I think here at the Hyperledger Foundation, we have proven to be. As our communities around the world this week celebrate Lunar New Year and our friends in celebrating in Brazil Carnaval, we are also a worldwide celebrating our anniversary and Hyperledger love this Valentine's Day. So good morning, good afternoon and good evening to all. A couple of things to keep in mind, all are welcomed in the Hyperledger community. So please make sure that we are committed to creating a safe and welcoming environment. Please use the Q and A, please use the chat and it will be monitored, but please be nice to one another. And once again, all are welcome, so welcome. Some quick housekeeping as well. Please note that we do under the Hyperledger Foundation follow the Linux Foundation anti-trust policy. So if you have any questions, please do look that up and let us know. We have enabled Q and A for our panels and our discussions. So please use the Zoom feature by clicking on that Q and A button and entering your questions to ask the questions of the panelists and the moderators and staff will be monitoring those questions for you as well. After the session, we will be providing the recording and available on our website under the webinar session. And if you're registered, of course, you'll get a copy of it as well. So once again, welcome to the Hyperledger Foundation eighth year anniversary. It is hard to believe that our community has been added for eight years, but here we are. And today we're really gonna focus on a lot of the things that we've accomplished and the things that are to come. For those of you who might be new to the Hyperledger community, we are a global community of open source enterprise grade blockchain technologies. And our mission is to be front and center in all the critical developments and implementations around the world. And you'll hear from our panelists today on how we are achieving that in our eighth year. So since 2015, the Hyperledger community has really been the place where we build and shape the enterprise blockchain market with frameworks, tools and libraries that support your real world enterprise needs. We're seen as open, global and trusted throughout the world. And it's amazing because this is exactly what we aim to do when we formed the Hyperledger project in 2015. So thanks to you all who are speaking today, our community members, we have really grown to be the open, global and trusted open source community. We believe that the future of decentralized technologies is around open source, open development and open governance. And the place for that is at the Hyperledger foundation as you'll hear today from our speakers and the topics that we have arranged to speak on. We are really a foundation of the foundation itself. So the organization, our member organizations, many of you who are industry leaders and businesses and startups and consortiums worldwide using, contributing and really leading the way in enterprise blockchain. And we are a global community worldwide. And I'll talk about some of our global community today that are really contributing and driving the adoption and the use of these technologies under the Hyperledger foundation. When I talk about our core principles at the Hyperledger foundation, it is about our developer community, making sure that the developers and the contributors have the tools and resources that they need to be successful. It's about educating and training the market, not only making markets and coming forward with new ideas and innovations in blockchain and blockchain related technologies, but educating the market. Our Hyperledger blockchain intro to blockchain course has been seen by over close to 300,000 people worldwide. Many people come up to me at events and say, my first entry into blockchain was because the Hyperledger course. And we continue to create training and education for certification of developers that really drive the enterprise ecosystem. And last but not least, it's about creating a healthy and growing commercial ecosystem of these open source code projects that you can rely on thousands of vendors worldwide and many who are supporters of the Hyperledger foundation and available in our vendor directory or become Hyperledger certified service providers to implement these open source tools within your enterprises. The Hyperledger momentum continues. We are here today celebrating our eighth year, but we have many projects and labs and really a growth in the community worldwide. And it's fantastic to see everyone here this morning. So once again, welcome everyone in our global community to our Hyperledger foundation, eighth year anniversary. I wanna specifically thank our supporting members who without them, we wouldn't be able to provide the resources we do to our developer community that we wouldn't be able to provide the education and the training that we offer to hundreds of thousands of people worldwide. And we wouldn't be able to support, very importantly, the growth of the community and the adoption of these new technologies worldwide. So I wanna thank all our supporting members worldwide who continue to join us just last year. We had 23 new members join the Hyperledger foundation. So welcome to those new ones and welcome to the ones that have been with us since 2015 when the foundation was still was formed. Quickly, a community by the numbers, we are today, we have over 59,000 lifetime pull requests with close to 7,000 unique contributors across our projects in our labs and 34,000 GitHub stars. And those numbers continue to grow as new community members participate. We have innovation happening in our Hyperledger labs with close to 58 active labs that have active contributors and participants with over 340 lab maintainers. These are people that are watching and contributing to those labs. And many of our labs have become projects like Bevel which is currently an incubating stage or Cacti and Firefly that have graduated and Solang that is also an incubating project stage. And we see continued growth. So we encourage you to look at our labs where innovation is happening. And we are global and we are local. We have over a hundred thousand meetup members worldwide in our lifetime of meetups. We've conducted over 1,400 meetups around the world in seven different languages with six regional chapters. And those numbers continue to go up thanks to people like you here on the phone who participate, who contribute and very importantly who lead, who are leaders in our regional chapters worldwide. So I thank you all for your support. An example is in India where there are 18,000 community members actively participating in our India chapter and have seen a 20% growth in just the last year alone. So congratulations to the India chapter for their continued support as well. And we have many by the numbers community, our webpage views just in 2023. We had over a million people visiting our webpages. We had 17 workshops. These are multi-hour workshops that you can learn hands on about open source projects here at Hyperledger. And we have over two million views today on YouTube. People are watching this content, creating content and contributing to it. So thank you all who create workshops, who do meetups and who do a lot of the content creation in our community. Without you, we could not achieve what we have. And our journeys into our projects today, we've had 21 lifetime projects with seven graduated projects and six incubating projects along the way. These are projects that our community brings to us. These are projects that our community creates from within the community itself. And it's really great to see the growth of these projects worldwide. If you look at our timeline from 2015 to today, you see our projects that have come in like Fabrik and Eroha in the first year, Indy in 2017 really giving birth to a lot of identity projects that today now have Hyperledger Aries in the non-creds and are adopted worldwide for digital identity projects. Hyperledger Basu in Firefly and Bevel, these are new projects that came in as tooling is required. And we'll talk a bit about them in a second. And as well as the newest project here, so right here, which we just announced this week, which is Hyperlever Web 3J. And Web 3J is the Ethereum Integration Library for Enterprises. And it comes with a very well-established open-source project community and in the Ethereum Enterprise space. So we welcome the Web 3J community this week into our community and I encourage everyone to take a look at it. So our projects even, our projects from the beginning of 2015, 2016 like Hyperledger Fabrik continue to innovate. Fabrik version 3.0 is coming out with a BFT ordering service and many other features that community needs as they use Fabrik in productions for most of the permission distributed ledger implementations out there. Today, Hyperledger Basu is running about 14% of the Ethereum Mainnet as an execution client alongside many permissioned EVM projects worldwide that we'll hear about today as well. And we are very happy to see the growth of that community both in the Ethereum Mainnet as well as in the permission based EVM side. This year alone or last year alone we had two projects graduate, two stars within our Hyperledger project community including Hyperledger Cacti that was created from within the community contribution by Accenture and Fujitsu and now have maintainers from IBM and other companies. They're really tackling the integration requirements of these networks worldwide. So I encourage you to scan that QR code and read the blog post around the Cacti graduation and get involved. Another project that graduated in 2023 is Hyperledger Firefly an original contribution by a company called Kaleido and we'll hear a bit from Kaleido today. And it really is a tool for enterprises to build and scale Secure Web 3 applications. And once again, scan that QR code to learn about what Firefly is, how to get involved and how it's really driving enterprise blockchain adoption worldwide. And we all open source projects have a life cycle. They go from incubated to graduated but to sometimes we do have to prune inactive projects in order to make our community feel like when you come in you understand what's happening. So we thank and applaud our blockchain pioneers and just in the last few months we've highlighted Hyperledger Composer a much love project within our community that has been archived as well as Hyperledger Ursa. So please be on the lookout and celebrate our blockchain pioneers, a lot of the work that the community has done and these developers and maintainers continue to contribute to other projects and we're very excited to honor the work that has been done in the Hyperledger community. So our community sees and brings and builds what's next in the enterprise space. All of you here today on the Zoom but more everyone who's watching via the live stream, everyone that will watch this recording we ask that you come and participate and contribute bring your code, bring your community, bring your business needs and let us help what's built what's next in the Hyperledger Foundation over the next eight years. Today we have a lot to learn from a celebration to learn from our leaders. We're gonna be learning from our premier members on building the enterprise grade market, Accenture and DTCC and IBM who have been with us since 2015, since the start of the Hyperledger Foundation and this fireside chat will be hosted by Sophia Lopez from Kaleido. Then we'll have a community recognition and then we'll break for two very important panels to talk about what's happening today and what's happening tomorrow around digital assets and tokenization where Barnaby Nelson from the value exchange will be moderating a panel with Adahar, City and Deloitte and then we'll close off with interoperability a very important topic around our community where we are and where we're going and we'll have Accenture and Digital Acid and R3 moderated by Hart Montgomery, our CTO. So we're very excited and welcome and thank you once again for celebrating our eighth year anniversary with us and with that, I'd like to move over to our panel discussions. So Sophia, I'd like to hand it over to you. Thanks, Daniela. Welcome, Sophia, thank you so much. Very exciting to be here. So we're gonna be talking about the Hyperledger. I'm on mute, hold on. No, I can hear you. Yeah, I can hear you. All right, great. Wondering if the double mute with the speaker. Well, so our session is gonna be about talking a little bit about the Hyperledger Foundation journey building the enterprise grade blockchain market. So deep dive into the impact of the Hyperledger Foundation and the development and deployment of enterprise grade blockchain technologies over the last eight years. I did want to start the panel just by wishing everyone a happy Valentine's Day. And I was- Happy Valentine's Day. It's really a special treat and a privilege to be here today with some of the people I've really enjoyed working with in the blockchain space over the past eight years. Feels like a really cool reunion of sorts. And they're all very special people, good friends, and I feel like privilege of having great adventures in the digital assets and blockchain spaces together over the years. I did see a quote just in the Valentine's Day theme that said, a friend is someone who understands your past, believes you're in your future and accepts you just the way you are. And I thought that was a good analogy for this panel discussion today. So we're gonna talk about the evolution of enterprise grade blockchain, understanding its past. Really, we all believe in its transformative potential for our future and society together. And then just accepting where we are and that this one one step of a journey. So we're excited to talk about with the panelists what they see, what's coming next as well. So I think just, I'd like to start with some intros. As I mentioned, we've got some very illustrious people here and to now play favorites because you're all my favorites. I think I need to go alphabetically here. So my first name, I'll go with David. David, you get to go first. Awesome. Well, Sophia, thank you. And Daniela, I know you're still listening. It was wonderful to see all the stats and data. We should look at it all together more often. It really is impressive. And just congratulations to this whole community. I'm very proud to have been in this journey from the start with the Accenture team has and I have been, it's been an incredible journey. We founded our blockchain business almost simultaneously with helping to pull this community together back in 2015. And so just very proud of Tracy, you know, Tracy Curd and her contributions and people like Peter Somigavari and my client and many more. So, you know, we've had a dedicated focus. We are a services company, not a technology or platform company. Very proud to be part of this community to then work with all of our clients and industry peers and the platform and software companies that are out there. Great. Jerry. Hey, Sophia. Hey, I'm Jerry Cuomo and I'm with IBM and I'm proud to be like several of the panelists to have been in the room when it happened. So from a Hamilton reference there and to look back from then to now and to see the progress we've made in eight years. First of all, time flies when you're having fun. It's just nothing short of impressive. And from an IBM perspective, we are a technology company to see how rallying, how hyper ledger rallied IBM inside to get the best out of our technologists. We continue, our research team continues to contribute to various projects. And it's a place where we can vet, you know, some ideas and kind of not like be overly focused internally but get the ideas out. And when we get them out to hyper ledger, we know we're vetting with the best in the world. So from the earliest starts of some of our fledgling ideas about what is blockchain for the rest of us, you know and thinking about the enterprise context to where we are today, looking at the intersectional quantum computing. You know, none of this would have happened without this wonderful, you know Linux foundation and the hyper ledger project. So wonderful and glad to be here. Thanks, Jerry and Johnna. I, it's wonderful to see everybody here and I just wanna echo the sentiment that, you know, looking at all of the data and seeing the wonderful journey is just so inspirational. So I'm a managing director in technology research and innovation at DTCC. I've been a part of this journey just for about seven months but my predecessor Rob Palatnik was part of the very long journey. And so DTCC has been part of this for years and I'm proud to, you know kind of continue that legacy and we've done a number of different projects with hyper ledger foundation and we're excited about the future and to continue all of those initiatives. So yeah. And then I guess in the prior roles you were working with a company that was a significant contributor to hyper ledger Vesu. Exactly. Go in prior, I was at consensus and you know, obviously consensus was very, very integrated in many hyper ledger Vesu and hyper ledger foundation initiatives. Yeah. And then David with Firefly with Cactus and which was mentioned Cacti actually and Bevel and then Jerry was very instrumental with fabrics. So we've got direct relationships contributing code, building communities as well as interaction. Sophia, you're an original with fabric and innovator around Firefly. So you certainly have your mark there too. That's the full circle here. Well, I'm curious, I think a good way to start just on where we've come from reflecting a little bit, you know in the year nine of the history of enterprise grade blockchain and then how the panelists have seen that evolve over the years as well as hyper ledgers role in that which has evolved as well. So I think there was an initial, you know mission statement to hyper ledger and the community has sort of grown in terms of how they even look at enterprise grade blockchain. So I don't know, maybe Jerry if you want to take that first. Yeah, a little bit of my history. Sure, sure. From a history perspective, you know it was interesting. I remember phoning up Jim Zemlin and pitching an idea that we thought was novel and IBM only to find from Jim humbling that, you know get in line, there's about 16 other folks that you're number 16 that has called on this notion of how do we apply enterprise qualities to what we're seeing in Bitcoin and the fledgling Ethereum at the time. So let's get together. And it was very clear just in 30 seconds in the conversation with Jim that there was no one company that can pull this off by themselves. Right? And, you know, we're so glad we didn't kind of go back into the lab and try to do something crazy by ourselves. So back then we realized that not everything was exactly the same. The concerns from the DTCC from some of the early members were, hey, you know, we're regulated institutions and what is this anonymity thing? How does that apply to it? And all of this kind of stuff. So what about permissions and how do we make things more auditable? And all of those things that the enterprise worry is about. And, you know, it was great to then sit down and say, okay, let's start tackling these one at a time with the advantage of the collective knowledge bringing folks thought together. We quickly then assembled from that thoughts that translated into code which then translated into many, many experiments live in situation around the world. So I think earliest days, you know, going to Jim was really the moment. It was the spark moment to say, no, one company should be wrestling this by themselves. Let's do it as, you know, an open ecosystem. And I think the rest, here we are, eight years later still going. Yeah, it's great. I'm just reflecting Jerry in the early days, JetWebSphere, you've had different titles, which was, you know, critical software IBM provided in the industry. But with blockchain, you always said, you know, now we're building in the open. So it's not something that belongs to one company. It's not closed source. And that was part of the beauty of going, you know, helping start Hyperledger under the Linux foundation, just creating an open development community. And it really mirrors sort of ethos of web three as it's evolved as very that sort of openness and open source based across all of web three. David, you went through similar sort of journey and thought process with, you know, you had teams building really cool technology. How was it to them think about Hyperledger as a place where maybe that code should live? And then in Accenture, you know, really seeding these very important open source communities in web three. Yeah, I'll just echo the sentiment, right? Just implicit in the blockchain innovation wave is it's about bringing multiple, you know, multiple parties together around, you know, around a whole different model for data and interactions. And so it was very, you know, as Jerry said, it was very natural or necessary to be able to craft a whole community. So right from the start, you know, we are devoutly a services company. You know, we do get involved. Obviously we've actually, I'm very proud of the team. They've contributed more than six million lines of code now to the Hyperledger projects. And so we're, you know, we're out there building and configuring for clients. But the importance of the Hyperledger community was it was really the place to be able to convene with those that were not only expert in the technology and the various facets of it, you know, in partners that focused on the software and platforms, but the industry groups that showed up that to bring, you know, to bring the expertise of the context into which the technology needed to be applied. So that we had, I think one of the, you know, one of the things I'm, I think I'm most proud of for us in this journey over the past eight years is we've had a very stable, valuable handle on what the core business requirements are. And Jerry referenced some of them around, you know, around the, you know, the, you know, nature of what regulated environments, you know, require, you know, specifically that stability of maintaining the, you know, the must haves for that to then guide how the technology, you know, developed and the innovation flourished was, I think is critical. It's, I think it's very unique to our community to be able to have that balance of the, you know, the innovative mindset, spirit and capabilities with the grounding of the practical realities of the business context, you know, into which we deliver solutions. And so I think that's incredibly special. It's been part of why we've participated in what we've tried to bring to the mix. And then I guess the only, the other comment I would make just broadly is it really is about the people. That if I think about the highest concentration of some of my favorite people, this community's got it. It just has always been a opening, welcoming culture that has attracted, you know, really incredible people and people who want to work together. So I also deeply value that part of our journey. Thanks, David. And then John, I'm just reflecting on your background. So I know you started as an engineer, actually even did some work at IBM, some cool areas, logic and processor side of the business. Then did strategy consulting with McKinsey, then you were at consensus and you were building products and working with customers, delivering solutions. And now with DTCC, how do you see enterprise blockchain having evolved over the years and just the vantage point of open source as part of that and hyperledger's role? Yeah, so I mean, just to echo some of David's comments, you know, we've been through so many ups and downs in this industry, it's so cyclical. And Sophia, you and I have, you know, obviously been super close to that as well, being more in the retail space to start at consensus. And, you know, we've been through booms and busts. People have started hasty projects and have just, you know, failed because they were going through, you know, for the shiny new things. And I think, you know, hyperledger foundation has really embodied the slowest, smooth, smoothest, fast approach in that they didn't get caught up in the FOMO. And the focus was, you know, around building the community, addressing client needs, working hand in hand with them to deliver that. And I think we've definitely seen that at DTCC, right? So we have a long-standing history, of course, with the hyperledger foundation. We're proud of the partnership. It's been an important part of our innovation journey. We've done a number of pilots. We're working actively with hyperledger Bezu. We've done assessment work with hyperledger Firefly, contributing to hyperledger Explorer code. And our most recent endeavor with hyperledger foundation is that DTCC recently launched a test net that is essentially a DLT ecosystem. And that's for the financial industry to just, you know, experiment together in the digital asset space. And it includes networks, tooling and so on. And that's built on hyperledger Bezu. So we're really excited about that. And, you know, I see a really exciting future for, you know, DTCC's partnership with hyperledger Bezu. And, you know, we couldn't be more excited about the past and the future path. Thanks, Jonah. I'm, I guess, transitioning to think a little bit more about the future and getting all the panelists' thoughts on that. Do you think from the early days, you know, maybe in summary, hyperledger's always admission was about bringing this technology to enterprises to really realize the potential of it. And of course, realizing enterprises have certain considerations. I mean, privacy, Jerry, you mentioned one of them, security and scalability and all the ill-ties and enterprise needs. And then I think over the years, heading into year nine, that, you know, there's this law called Emra's law that we tend to overestimate the impact of a new technology in early days. And I think we've, you know, coming into year nine, we've lived through some of those cycles. And, John, you mentioned that that's B2B and B2C has seen that. But then we underestimate the impact in the long run. And it's usually around that 10-year mark when you get that inflection happening. So I'm curious to hear from all of you, you know, what your individual thoughts are about what you're excited about on the horizon and then, you know, what's next. And that could include a combination of technologies. I know, Jerry, you mentioned some. And I know, David and John, you've both been active in some other sort of complementary technologies as well. So I guess I'll leave it to the three of you who'd like to tackle the future. Jerry? Yeah, sure. I'll just jump in here and say, you know, from the beginning to today, one thing really hasn't changed at all. And that's a wonderful thing, which is Satoshi, whoever that group of folks are, mixed a cake with some amazing ingredients. The healthy dose of cryptography, a pinch of distributed computing and whatnot. It produced a very compelling architecture that transcends today, whether it's a public, private, some hybrid in between. And one thing that we see looking back to today is that these ingredients are applicable in whole or part, whether it is a blockchain, that thing we call blockchain, or whether it's taking some of the core pieces, you know, like Merkel trees and applying them to trust in AI, right? So what I see over the years, practically looking at the hype curve, when you look back at how these pieces come together, the whole is worth quite a bit, but the parts are also worth quite a bit too. So over time, as this hype curve has been evolving, I have seen groups, you know, really look at the blockchain pattern and apply it liberally across IoT, AI, and now quantum. When we look at, you know, the Q-Day coming soon, like Y2K, that when you look at quantum safety, where would the whole quantum safety algorithms be with the Institute for National Institute for Technology and some of the recent approval, if it wasn't for Hyperletter and some of the work that has gone in? So I will start, Sophia, saying that over time, something, the core ingredients that made up the DNA of blockchain in whole or part has contributed back to society, across technology in many interesting ways that continue to give over and over again. So I guess that's one thing that's heavy on my mind around how compelling that is. Yeah, I'll pick up from there and I'm gonna butcher the analogy maybe, but that wonderful cake there, Jerry, the reference of the multiple ingredients, right? I think the other thing is to recognize that the biggest transformations actually come from the combination of these innovation waves and some of the existing technologies. And so considering the entire meal of the ice cream that gets paired with the cake or let's be healthy and think about the entrees and the sides that come before it, I think you're spot on with your references to AI and to quantum and the notion of how the integration of these innovation waves actually create really special outcomes is very much our focus. And behaviorally, what pairs with that is a bit of a mission that I and several of you are on openly, which is to end the intellectual Peewee soccer of this whole space of all of the attention goes to one thing and then we all run to the next thing. We've been the beneficiary of that at different points in time over the past decade and we've had the attention sapped away from us and others. But in wrecking, again, just building on the point it is about the combinatorial value of all of these technologies. Blockchain is and distributed computing decentralized systems are providing this necessary foundational layer upon which now incredible experiences with spatial computing, incredible insights through AI, incredible advances in security and business and I guess insights also from the quantum space are possible and our ability to think about how all of these hang together, reinforce each other, compound the benefits of each other. Blockchain I think plays a really unique facet of connective tissue through these different ways of innovation because at the heart of it, the data and shared access to data and confident knowledge of its provenance in history and the transparency around it is just critical. Yeah, I agree with all of those points. I think, advancements in interoperability is also going to be very important. Another one is a much clearer regulatory framework which we can help influence but has been traditionally quite difficult in the US. But I think all of these technologies and kind of the convergence of these technologies not just DLT but also AI and also quantum and so on I think is going to be a forcing mechanism for things to get much clearer. We're going to have to develop quantum resistant blockchains obviously and get ahead of that. There's the role of AI as both David and Jerry mentioned in verifying the authenticity of AI models, datasets reducing the risk of fraud but also looking at interesting opportunities like decentralized compute. So it's incredibly exciting and I think maybe the last opportunity that I'm really excited about is just getting an end to end the settlement flow where we're actually settling a real digitized cash leg. So there's a lot of really interesting and exciting opportunities in the future. Well, I love John, you sort of went where I was going to try to bring the panel to predictions and advice. So we got some of your advice and predictions. I was wondering, David and Jerry if you'd like to offer some of those as well. We have over a hundred attendees. So there's, hopefully we can leave them with some good thoughts as they're building in the space and could benefit from that. I gotta, sorry, go Jerry, go. Yeah, I'll be quick, David. Just be thoughtful but do things as well because what you learn from doing, you can tell a child that the stove is hot, but it's not until they touch it that they really realize what you just meant. So there's so much said about blockchain and it's really hard to internalize. And now with like the likes of Kaleido where you can spin up a blockchain before you even thought about spinning it up it's already there, there's no excuse to not try. So think but try. And I think there's always grandiose thoughts about, well, the entry price for blockchain is high with respect to forming consortium. None of that is true anymore, right? So seek out a good consultant to help you figure out the road. It's been figured out, no need to reinvent the wheel. So what took six months, you can now do in a week and really get out with good advice and also services like the Kaleido service to just spin it up. So I think one piece of advice is think but do. And doing today is a fraction of the cost. I know blockchain budgets aren't as big as they used to be but that's okay because you don't really need that budget anymore because of hyper ledger and the things that it has created. So anyway, think but do is kind of my advice. I do want to tag on. Jerry has a great book called Think Blockchain. So for those who are thinking and then want to do, he has a lot of great case studies and then some lot different ways to get started building there. Proceeds to the American Cancer Society. Amazing. I'll maybe go more philosophical. If when I think about the macro elements of what's going on, right? If everything from the concerns around data and privacy, GDPR, California privacy are frustrations with the, how this social media construct of the internet has developed, the end of the end of cookie wars, the powerful aspect of AI insights to be able to work off of unthinkable amounts of data to generate really hyper personalized service and products. When I put all of those things together at the heart of it is really two things. One is I think an even bigger case for why the strong foundations of the provenance of data and control and transparency, auditability is key. But then also something that I think we've net, we've, I, sorry, I will own this. You can, you can attribute as much as you want to it. I, you know, our ability to make, to really create lovable user experiences, you know, off of these foundations, I think is a huge opportunity for us now that we have different end points to work with, whether it's, you know, new headsets or, you know, spatial computing capabilities or the inter, you know, the human interactions with AI agents. And that's not something for someone else to go do. That's something that, you know, I believe requires the partnership with, you know, our community and its foundations as a key part of that to really make those lovable, immersive, engaging, hyper personalized experiences, you know, with the, with the, you know, the ownership of our identity, money and objects at the heart of it all predicated on the types of data structures we've been working on. And so our, our reaching out to the other innovation communities, partnering with them to really create those lovable, safe, controlled, you know, user-centric experiences is both a prediction and a wish and a prediction and wish. Thanks, David. And I know I mentioned, Donna, you already had previewed some predictions and advice. So I don't know if you want to spend a minute more to develop any of those or just simply share what excites you the most as you look forward for the next year or two. Yeah, no, I think just echoing on what I already said, I think, you know, the end-to-end settlement and settling on a cache lag is something that we're really excited about, right? It's kind of like the intersection of CVDCs and stablecoins and finally being able to execute this end-to-end issuance and settlement process, the concept of something that truly is 24-7 institutional grade payment systems for global currencies, you know, being able to do, you know, real, to, you know, really prove real capabilities and DVP, PVP and so on. And so, you know, our partnership, our strategic investment and potential partnership with Finality is exciting to me. But, you know, echoing again what, you know, what has already been said, I think the convergence of all of the technologies is going to be really interesting and exciting. Okay. And I appreciate you did answer a question on the Q&A as well. That was a little more specific about DTCC. I see there is a more general question that Karen dropped in about, people are curious what panelists see as projects that would like to see come into the Hyperledger Foundation in the coming year or years if there's any thoughts that come to mind. I think one just picking up on the theme we've just been talking about is the integration projects, right? So reaching out to other open source communities and realizing that it's the combinatorial value that's, you know, that's the, you know, so what, you know, whether that's a real, whether that's a project that would meet our definitions is, you know, we can debate and discuss, but that notion of spinning those up and recognizing or identifying where there might need to be additional, you know, additional components that are, you know, that should be built to enable those, I think is a rich area to investigate. Yeah. And I just add, you know, the intersection with AI, AI is certainly so hot. I would say maybe not as much on the hype curve because I think, you know, with some of the generative AI stuff, you can sit down in 30 seconds and show someone the value of it, which back in the day, blockchain, it took more than 30 seconds. So it's real. However, when I hear some of the conversations on trustworthy AI, it's almost like it's like, like, you know, what's your line or game show where I'm like, wait a second, is this a test? No one in this room knows what blockchain is. Like they're asking questions around trusted AI and this and that. Is anyone but me making the connection? So I think there's so much we can do in Hyperledger to, you know, look at trusted AI. You know, as Joanna said, there's the data model side. There is, you know, and when you look at communities like Huggingface, where there's a whole collection of these things, you know, having registries and online places where, you know, communities could look at really the food label, the trust, you know, where did this thing really come from? And not guess or not, you know, Boy Scout, Girl Scouts on, or we swear that this thing is what it's, we said it. So I think we know that a little algorithmic trust that you get from blockchain plus a little, you know, reputational trust could go a long way. And I just amazing how the two streams haven't really crossed yet. So I think Hyperledger project could help bring those streams together more efficiently. Great, thanks, Jerry. Well, I know we're basically at time now. So I do wanna reiterate, David, your thoughts, it's been great to see what Daniela reading the stats and how far Hyperledger has come and all the momentum wanted, I guess, on behalf of all of us, a big thank you to Daniela for her leadership and to Brian prior to that, Brian Bellendorf as well as the whole Hyperledger team. And I do get to see David and Joanna regularly on the board meetings of our Hyperledger governing board. So thank you both for your incredible contributions and Jerry's also a musician who plays part-time in Raleigh against the CMI. I owe you a beer next time. The proceeds of that always goes to the Kansas Society too because Jerry's a great guy. But I enjoyed reconnecting with all of you and thanks so much for sharing all your insights today. Thank you. Thank you. Daniela, you're muted. Is that again? First time on Zoom. Thank you all for joining us today. Fantastic panel, be thoughtful, but do things. I think that has been a core of what the Hyperledger Foundation has been doing for eight years, thanks to our community who are really understanding how enterprise technologies come to market, how they are innovative and how to bring them into production. So be thoughtful, but do things. A lovable user experiences. I love it when Dave talks about lovable experiences that we're creating here at the Hyperledger Foundation. And very much today, obviously, with the theme that we have around Hyperledger Love. And I'm excited to also just show everybody that we are launching our new Hyperledger Love T-shirt. And we have a new store where new Hyperledger Foundation swag can be found. So we'll put it on the chat, but if you use the code HyperledgerLove, you can get 20% off our Hyperledger Love T-shirt as well. So once again, thank you for the panelists. It's very exciting to see what's coming in the future of Hyperledger. And once again, it is about our community and what you bring to us and how we develop and build these projects as well. So I'm looking forward. Without our community, developers, contributors, it would be very hard for us to achieve everything that we have. So I wanna share a bit today, a short video that really highlights the community that we have and our community members that we'd like to honor for 2023. So let's take a look. So once again, thank you to all our community leaders worldwide and those are the leaders that we've chosen to recognize this year, but there's hundreds and hundreds more. And without you, once again, we cannot achieve all our goals. So once again, do please take a look at the Hyperledger Love and show our community some love by buying some swag. All right, let's go ahead and go to the next panel. I'm very excited to introduce the next panel and it's gonna be moderated by Barnaby Nelson from Value Exchange. And I met Barnaby a couple of months ago, actually at Cybos where he moderated a panel and really talked about the real ROI inefficiencies that blockchain and tokenization are bringing to the market. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce Barnaby as well as the other speakers. So welcome everyone. And I'm gonna stop sharing and I know Barnaby, you have a deck that you're gonna share as well. So welcome, hi, Peter, hi, Roy and hi, Ryan. Welcome. Great. Thank you so much, and thank you everyone for joining us today. So we've got half an hour to walk through essentially the kind of current state if you like of digital assets and tokenization, really with a view to drawing on the huge amounts of practical experience that we've got across Ryan, Peter and Roy here to really actually give a kind of, as I said, a good present tense view and also kind of a little bit of runway view basically where we go from here. So before we kick off the way we're gonna run it, it's basically we're gonna focus on a few key questions. Just one is basically where do we see the problem statements around DLT being solved? Two, then basically how are we getting on, why is it not kind of ubiquitous already? And then three, what are we doing to basically to solve the blockages and issues that we're seeing? So to run us through that as I said, it's brilliant having the three panelists here today. So perhaps, Ryan, if you don't mind just kicking yourself and giving a little bit of context of you, hyperledger, digital assets, how do the three converge? Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, I really appreciate it. So my name's Ryan Rugg. I am currently the Global Head of Digital Assets for our Treasury and Trade Solution Business at Citi. I've been with the organization a little over a year and a half. Prior to that, I worked for IBM R3. So I've been in and around this space for quite some time. I'm excited to share what we're doing at Citi with Citi Token Services. And really the pain point that we're trying to solve is that cross-border, cross-bank inefficiency with liquidity and how digital assets can really start to scale that. Brilliant, thank you, Ryan. Peter, from your side and that horror side. Hi, everyone. Your domains. I just realized that I've been in the space for about 10 years now. Looking back over my various engagements with banks and Spintex, I'm currently with Adora, with Julio Flora and Ed Budd, who I think many of you know. So we provide product software into the space for commercial banks, FMI's and central banks, various solutions based on deposit tokens and settlement into bank settlement tokens. We have worked, we've been a blockchain partner to Finality International for the last five years now. And we've helped them go live with Stirling, with the Bank of England and a number of commercial banks in that space and obviously working with them on some of the other currencies they're targeting. And we've done a, we've done a, I've personally done a lot of the integration work. So other, the Adora deposit token solutions and going with Finality for into banks at the moment. Or I've worked with HKLX, with the Intraday Reaper, with HKLX collateral sibling against Finality. So that's my background, Angel, I look forward to this panel. Thanks, Barnaby. Thanks, Peter. Roy, how about you? How does it all come together for you? Thank you. First of all, Daniella and Hyperlegium Foundation for hosting us, privileged to hear the first panel. I've been with Deloitte and I'm just stretching my hand a little bit over 19 years in the US. But clearly I've not been in all of them and digital asset, it will have been interesting. But Deloitte itself, across a different services, have been supporting the area since, you know, 2010, 2011, where the clients were started exploring with crypto coins and others. And I've been, I've had, I mean, Peter, do you know that I've looked at that and coming up to seven, eight years of helping clients to start exploring in this space. And we've done a number of projects, so clearly working with a number of industry institutions, industry consortiums who are building capabilities in this space, helping the industry that, and then assisting any of our clients or looking across building capabilities, getting regulatory permissibility, building strategies, both across crypto as well as tokenization itself. Brilliant, so we have a huge amount of experience as I said, to be able to call on here. So just to kick us off, what, from a value exchange perspective, what we do is market research around anything that's plumbing and infrastructure. So what I thought we could just do is basically is just walk through a couple of slides, just to set the scene before we start going into the problem statements that we're trying to fix. And so this draws actually, I know Dave treats on the line, Dave's been a very kind contributor to our research for the last few years, along with a broad ridge finality, actually, and Metico, and so this is some research that we ran last year based on feedback from pretty much every bank broker and marketplace around the world. So really just to set the scene in terms of digital assets present tense, I think for me, one of the most important things that actually gets lost and a lot of the messaging these days is that they're becoming more and more and more important to us. You can see every segment of the kind of there, the connected and active kind of investment management or security cycle, if you like, is really seeing a big growth in terms of year and year importance, barring perhaps the asset owners who are serviced by everyone else. But I think for me, one of the big things that I want to really drill into with the panel now is essentially why we're using it and how is that changing? So what answers we're looking for in terms of problem statements? Because coming from where we come from, we seem to have been using VLT and digital assets very much as a cost-saving measure and underusing it potentially for everything else, including the whole question of liquidity. And so for me, there's a question mark there about really the journey that we're on in terms of actually, as I said, what's the point of all of this? What is very clear though is that we are starting to answer some really significant questions in some serious ways. So you can see here, actually it's five plus one. So basically five asset classes plus payments. You can see that actually we're getting to the point of maturity now. A lot of this conversation so far in this webinar has been about the eight years. This is where we're at. We're actually really delivering real results across. You can see five major asset classes here. And one thing I'm looking forward to talking about with Peter is the HQLA Exide as well. One of the standouts for me, the way you're seeing digital asset liquidity form is in the securities finance space, particularly as you can see here, a great example of this move from basically a very expensive reconciliation platform to something far bigger in terms of actually something that really delivers balance sheet savings. So just a quick bit of context there, just as I said to the panel before we started to give everyone something to disagree with, there's nothing else. So Brian, coming to you, I mean, this stage of, as I said, problem statements from a city token services perspective, I mean, this is, well, where do you see the problems that we can be fixing with these technologies? Yeah, great question. So, since the beginning of kind of, you think back to Satoshi's paper and really originally what they were trying to solve was like frictionless movement of assets or payments. And that's what we're trying to create right now. City token services, like, city has 95 branches across the world. There's different outages due to bank holidays, due to cut off times, really being able to move that money frictionless. So if it's 5 p.m. in New York on Friday and it's 5 a.m. in Singapore where normally you wouldn't be able to move money and large multinationals keep buffers of cash and all these different kind of banking hubs for to cover payroll or taxes or whatever is gonna come due on that start of the week, now being able to do just in time funding to really match payments to this 24-7 kind of e-commerce that we're in now globally. And I've been working closely with Roy and the team at Deloitte on like the RLN Initiative and not creating a silo token. That's not what clients want. They want multi-bank, multi-border liquidity and that's really what we're trying to solve and have been actively testing this with clients. And I think that's the key part is working closely with clients, really solving that pain point that clients want. And we're doing it on a ERC-20 token and we started with cash, which is, you can argue one of the most simplistic assets and then with the aspiration of moving into other, tokenizing other assets across the ecosystem. Yeah, no, fantastic. And thanks for that. I mean, buckets to drill straight into there. Peter, your thoughts on it, as I said, particularly you've been on the kind of currency lag and on the collateral side. What are you seeing in terms of problem statements that were really helping or really defining it? No, 300% was Ryan there. So we're seeing the same thing. Obviously the cost of liquidity is going up. The regulations are becoming tighter, BCVS 248, which I think was introduced in 2013 has put the emphasis on intraday liquidity monitoring. Basel III now has the requirements for managing specifically intraday liquidity, but that has a spillover to overnight as well. And so Treasures are looking at ways of, one, making sure they can do their jobs, looking for instruments that help. And then we've seen these platforms like HKLX with the intraday repo product, Fentium with intraday effects drops. And then settlement, real-time settlement platforms like, and the product that City has built out across their branches and other banking groups doing similar things. So providing effectively Treasures with the tools to do their job. And then the other thing, which we've always battled with is the ability to tie multi-legs of transactions or the settlement part of the transactions together. And so being able to do DVP in an atomic fashion or PVP in an atomic fashion, whether that's across two different interbank settlement platforms, two different currencies, or something like HKLX in finality, or the positive token solution say at City and an interbank submission provided by finality or some of the others that are out there. And so the interoperability piece is a significant challenge, but I think it's something that we are solving for quite well. Yeah, no, brilliant, thank you. Roy, from your perspective, I mean, how do you find, I mean, obviously you're very closely involved in all of these projects, but how do you find the kind of the problem statements? Because for me, one of the things that's so interesting is to build on what Ryan and Peter have said is that you've kind of got the removing friction, but then you've got, once you remove the friction, you end up with a surety and a security that allows you to do a whole range of additional stuff now. And I'll take it one step aside for a second and then bring it back. So I think you mentioned from a use case perspective, clearly looking around optimizing operations as one use case around tokenization. The other area is at least speaking to our clients is can I introduce new products through tokenizing something or can I explore new markets that they currently do not exist? And reach out new segments that are currently hard to reach out to. And I think touching upon what Ryan and Peter spoke about, and I think leaning on what Peter mentioned, so with the AeroLand project that Ryan was referring to, the approach there was, and leaning on what said earlier, was being able to bring the industry together, being able to say what is the business problem we are trying to solve, right? This is not, we have a technology, we have this shiny object, let's find something around it. First, let's Peter to your point, let's go and speak to treasurers and understand what the issue is. I think the dialogue that we've had there was around cross-border movements of US dollar, how much risk and money is left there and kind of walking through how a tokenized version of US dollar could help accelerate the movement of cross-border and reduce the frictions and the risk around that. And now very similar around that, can we move it into, once we've done the payments versus payments, can we move it to a DVP? The other point that Peter touched upon which is crucial here, and I think, again, I apologize, thinking about solving it is the interoperability because we've seen, we've got a number of islands across the industry and we've named a few of them, right? So HQLAX, we have the broad reach solution, we have ONIX, we have a few solutions and all of them are operating to some extent, optimized within their own four walls for this to be successful, we clearly understand that there's not gonna be a single solution that's gonna solve it all. There's gonna be some sort of a platform and FMI that we'll need to build upon and create some interoperability between all of those. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's kind of telling of where we are in 2024 that we probably lasted about six minutes before the word interoperability came up but I think it is, as you said, we're at this stage now, aren't we, where we've got this maturity, we've got the usage, but ultimately, exactly as you said, we've got a lot of islands of liquidity at the moment, but the big question is how does it all join up and our ability to really actually answer questions meaningfully to coalesce and come together, obviously, that requires some kind of connectivity. And this is one of the things I wanna touch on just quickly is actually, fortunately, there's a couple of stats that I just wanna throw out very briefly in terms of actually interoperability, limiting liquidity is exactly the big reason why basically why we're not statistically, why we're not where we could be in terms of actually this, the overall our ability as I said to meaningfully answer questions. So limited ability, limited connectivity, but again, the secondary consequences of that in terms of the, basically if we're not connected then our ability to deliver big solutions means that actually, we're just not able to really make a business case that's that compelling, which is why a lot of projects are falling short at the moment, I'd argue. So, and I think for me, one of the big things in part of that is also is whether or not we're involving all the right people in those interoperability conversations. I think when we look in the capital market space, here the problem is that finance and treasury is back to Peter's point, if we're building these solutions to help them do their job, they're not in the room half the time. So, there's a question is not just about basically the technical interoperability, but there's a question of stakeholders. I don't know if those kind of things resonate, but I mean, I guess maybe Peter coming to you, I mean, we can talk about what we're doing about interoperability for a second, but where are you seeing the blockages in terms of why we're not necessarily just blowing the lights out right now? I think we all kind of work together to achieve significant structural benefits for the financial market, infrastructures for the banks. It is, as someone once said recently, it's kind of a once in a lifetime shift in the way we do settlement of liquidity and the way we do payments. We've all spoken about really audacious visions and there's a lot of moving parts to get that done. So, this technology that's literally improving day by day and Daniel, I can probably throw a whole lot of stats around how much work is going to our village of Bessu, how much work is going to Firefly, how much to Firefly and others. There's improvements all the time. There's new regulation, so SEO 60, which you highlighted to us, it's brand new. It's a really, really good legislation. It really helps define a lot of the framework into which we're all building, but it's literally, you know, has been put together recently in the last couple of months. So, I'm putting out great work at the moment as well. So, there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of things that need to come together in order to get the scale that we're all looking for. But we are, as you said, we are seeing really good progress. We've seen live solutions. And that's probably the other problem we've had is that we've had a lot of PLCs, a lot of people saying we could do it like this, we could do it like this. And as we all know, to get that first live transaction out with real money, that's a big challenge. But we're there now with a number of different platforms and I think we can start to build on that. So, it's taken us a long time to get to this point. But now that we're here, I think we were set and we've seen the support come in both the technology side and the regulatory side to move forward. And Ryan, it's such an interesting point that if you look at it from a linear perspective, we've got the end of PLCs and this switch over from, well, we're all going to try it differently to actually try to forge some consensus view, but also the regulators really coming into the room in terms of actually setting things up. I mean, how do you find the trajectory of that in terms of actually, I mean, do you feel that we're actually, we're making meaningful progress in terms of actually answering some of these challenges? Because I'll just add in one of the questions on the comments was also just this whole interoperability question, it's not new, is it? No, it's been around for quite some time, but I do think that we're at a different spot than we were in the past. Now, having gone through all the new product approvals, regulatory approvals, legal approvals, compliance approvals, actually implementing it into a large enterprises where we're not, in regards to like AML, sanction checks, all the TRADFI checks and balances that are there that protect the individual are here or we're still using. And if not, we're adding, even adding an additional scrutiny to it. So it's not a POC or MVP that sits outside of our infrastructure, it's actually implemented and being scaled internally. And we're still in the testing phase. We've used real client money, but we haven't kind of really started to scale it yet. But I think also you're starting to see, we're a US entity, so we're regulated by the OCC as well as the other entities. The OCC had a symposium, I think Roy, you were there last week speaking about it. And they're much more forward thinking and talking about like the cool things that banks are doing. And they recognize that we're progressing here, which I think is really positive. This space had been dominated for quite some time by the FinTechs. And I still think our strategy is build by partner. We're gonna build some, we're gonna invest in technology as well as partner with like kind of the best in class out there. And I think that the regulator are taking a much more forward look on this, I think is extremely positive because we won't operate in a gray area. It has to be 100% permissionable for us to be able to actually use this technology and scale it. And I think it's positive that you're starting to see more kind of insight come out in this space and clarity. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Roy, are you feeling that kind of the same thing that we're actually that we're in a much clearer state than we were a few years ago in terms of how we can operationalize digital assets? I'm not sure if they're clear. I think there's better directions around that, right? So, Gandhi. And I think going back to interoperability, I think you're talking about two different scenarios. One is we've got different blockchain ledgers that operate with different technology. There's interoperability linkage there. And then you've got interoperability into the legacy systems at the banks themselves or any financial institutions. And those are two different, somewhat similar, but two different issues. Going back to the regulatory clarity, at least in the US, if you're speaking about it, again, what we do see is a higher involvement of the regulators around understanding what it is, being involved in the dialogue, coming in and listening to the industry themselves. And yeah, I want to echo what Ryan mentioned about sitting in the room last week in Washington and we had academia, we had industry, you had fintechs, you have native cryptos in the room and you've had OCC and the FDIC and SCC, all innovation terms and FDIC, at least sharing their perspective and also having the offline discussion with the industry. At least that shows that it's not being ignored and there is a dialogue around that. If I lean on the work that Ryan was looking to earlier about the regulatory liability network, the benefit that we've had there is that the work was done in collaboration with the New York Innovation Arm of the Fed, which again allows them to take part, ask questions, learn and evolve their understanding of what a tokenized version of commercial bank money may mean. How will that may work, possibly in the existing Fed system money, FedNow and Fedwire and potentially is the thing about their future systems. Yeah, absolutely. And similarly, I'm just thinking, to your point, you've got the room going on in Washington, you've got huge amounts of progress being made in Singapore. You've obviously got a lot of conversations going on in Europe through the pilot review, through a lot of, so you've got a lot of different streams not to do the other parts of the world down, but you've got a lot of different streams where that conversation is happening with the right people in the room now, as opposed to the old structure where it was kind of, no, we'll cook it up first and then we'll basically share it across to the regulator afterwards. I mean, just, Peter, as we're chatting, I'm just kind of thinking that you mentioned a couple of great examples already of kind of, so interoperability and practice, right? So what does this actually look like if it is one of the biggest things that we can't go a few minutes without mentioning? Tannality, HQAX, these kind of things, I mean, they are, they're great examples, aren't they? You have kind of really actually delivering this across multiple counterparties, but also across the trade cycle. Curious to see what learning points you feel we're taking away from, what scales from those experiments, if you like, into other areas. So I think what we've tried to do is to create, well, so the HAPALATI Foundation has actually helped us significant in this, to create a lab. So we worked with a couple of organizations as well as R3 to create HAPALATIA harmonia where we've tried to put all those learnings. And I think the big thing that we found was many of the technologies that are out there that work in perhaps an unregulated space in public blockchains are not fit for purpose in the regulated space. So you'll see within harmonia what we've done is we've listed all of the principles that we're supposed to say, from a legal commercial perspective, this is the framework that we have to work with in. And then we've looked at the commercial requirements and then we've got some reference limitations that come out of that. And those reference limitations are based on some of the real world use cases that we've seen. So I think it's a great place for people to go and have a look and say, how can we do interoperate between a quarter platform and an enterprise Ethereum platform within the principles? And you'll see the principles are quite clear, clearly defined within harmonia. So I think that's helped to catalyze a lot of different players in the industry and to provide a focal point to say let's work together. And we've seen some of the standards bodies like the enterprise Ethereum Alliance, the ITF, picking up on them and saying, okay, well, we can see the industry coming together. Let's work with them to put some protocol standards in place, which will then help the protocol, which will then help the business. So I think it's quite a nice process at the moment. And so, yeah. I mean, there's great technology out there to do cryptographic interoperability. There's some fantastic tools. We just got to find the right ones and the way to put them together within the regular space. And we've made some really, really good progress across a number of different platforms and organizations in the last few years or so. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Ryan, similarly, I guess, I mean, to your point about removing friction and kind of, to Peter's point, you're doing this in a fully regulated environment, right? And so, it's not your wings a clip, but ultimately you don't have the full flexibility to your point earlier on about other fintechs and everything like that. Where are you finding the real success kind of factors driving? And particularly in terms of the design of how you build out the platform and the proposition and how we make it work in a world where, as Peter says, you've got SC60, you've got a lot of constraints coming in on you. I think one thing that's been really a key to one of our successes is working with our clients and collaborating with them. City moves, I don't know, $4 trillion a day and really working with our more innovative clients that have this pain point. They're helping literally dictate our roadmap in regards to which hubs we're adding, which additional currencies, which functionality. The future state is having automated treasury management and programmable money, right? If my account in New York drops below some threshold, send from another account, really automating that whole entire process. And really based on what our client needs are, in my prior roles in my career, we built things that I think we thought clients wanted, but not actually having that validation and having that feedback, which has been a key part of our success. And we've been fortunate enough to have some of the more innovative clients in our ecosystem work with us because as we move to this always-on digital economy, how does money actually match that? How does money move at the speed of sale? How does money move at the point of sale? How do we actually not just have messaging but actually have delivery and not having those holiday outages or the cutoff times? So I think really working with clients has been a key part of our success as well as doing it in a compliant legal and regulatory framework, making sure that all the checks and balances that are there for TRADFI occur with us. I think that part has been missing you mentioned that we do operate on a permission ledger because of being a highly regulated entity and not being permissionable to be on public, but I think safety and soundness is so key and for clients also like they're not ready that to send money or tokens or assets not to have that repercussion to have kind of someone to be able to help them through if anything everyone needs to have in. So I think that's been key working with our clients. Yeah, yeah, but I think that's me. Sorry, Roy. Just you've got the final word actually, I've just realized it's 19 minutes past, but I think if you draw all of this together, I think, Ryan, your point about porting over traditional rules and frameworks into this, that for me is the big thing that seems to be coming out right now is that we're getting better at transposing and interpreting traditional business requirements and regulatory requirements into a digital world. I mean, Roy, do you feel that basically, looking slightly ahead, do you feel that basically that we're getting better at this? I mean, do you feel that there's an exponential speed that we're going to be moving down or do you feel that we're going to kind of carry on for the next five years? It's kind of rough, similar pace because we've still got a heck of a lot to get done. My personal view, if we end up with five years, none of us is going to be here because that thing is going to die. I'll be very blunt around it. Thank you for smiling there, Ryan. I mean, the point there, and I actually wrote safety and soundness as you were mentioning, Ryan, before you said it, I think we've got to a point where we understand that we've got to build whatever we are building on the basics of at least in the US, I'm talking about the US view of the FFIC and other playbooks that already been there for years. And now we are introducing a new set of technology but it's got to operate within those risks. If we can operate and bring that and have the regulators understand how we are mitigating those risks, how we are meeting the safety and soundness capabilities while building the consortium, bringing the industry together, moving away from POCs into actual productions because that's the other point we didn't detach upon, we're going to see that accelerated point vulnerability that you were talking about. If we'll continue where we are, so again, my view is I don't think we're going to be here in five years, it's going to be. The technology is going to take itself and again, we haven't touched upon and I think we were mentioned earlier, right? We're going to have AI. Now AI will need to lean on the DLT based technology to validate some of the stuff that we don't know today. And I think I echo what was mentioned in the earlier panel about this as well. So I think that will drive a lot of that option. Absolutely, no, brilliant. Thank you so much. And thank you to all three of the panelists because I think it's a little bit of a rush through the key contextual points, but I think hopefully we set you, Val, and I run out nicely to talk about interoperability properly. So, Janela, over to you. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you. Thank you, Roy. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you, Peter. Thank you, Barnaby. I agree, this could have been a much longer session and I think we need to plan those out as we go through. I want to point out also very importantly that these three new members, Deloitte, City, and Adihar have joined the Hyperledger Foundation in the last six months to help support the work that our community has been doing. So it's great to see not just your contributions and the way that you're using technology and production use cases and innovations and really driving the market, but also in your support of the Hyperledger Foundation. So thank you once again. And before we get started and actually go to some of the OGs in our member community, I'm going to go ahead and share once again the video that we have about our wonderful, let me see if I could bite it, our wonderful community. And these are community members that over the last year have really amplified how our community is growing and how we are here to build better together. Wonderful. Thank you all once again, all the community members that have been supporting us. And from some of our new members really talking about the topic of tokenization and digital assets, I like to move over to our next panel, talking about our journey in interoperability. And we have some OGs here, some old guard folks that have been with the Hyperledger Foundation since the beginning. So we've known both Yuval and Richard and Tracy and Hart as well for the last eight years. So welcome. Thank you for celebrating with us today. Well, Hart, I'm going to go ahead and stop the screen and please take over. Yeah, I know, Hart. And Yuval and Richard, if you can turn on your videos, that'd be great. Thank you. All right, Hart, thank you. No worries. Thanks a lot, Daniela. And thank you everybody for being here and thank you to our panelists for participating in this discussion. As we've heard quite a bit already today, interoperability is very important in modern blockchain solutions. And we expect also the future of blockchain. And today we have an excellent assembly of panelists to tell you why and give some background. So I'd like to start by asking all of the panelists to briefly introduce themselves and give some background on what they're doing in Interop. Let's go in alphabetical order. So let's start with Richard. Thanks, Hart. Hi, everybody. Richard Brown, Chief Technology Officer at R3. I led the team that brought Corder, the open source enterprise blockchain to market. I guess first release maybe seven or eight years ago now. So in parallel with all the work at Hyperledger, there's a whole bunch of work we've done on interoperability throughout those years. And I'll talk a little bit later about some of the mistakes and lessons we've learned along the way, but probably the most relevant symptoms of what we're doing right now is Hormonia Hyperledger Lab, a piece of work we're doing with many supporters, including Adhara and others, looking at how to enable open interoperability between Corder, EVM networks and others. And we'll talk about that later as well. Delighted to be here. Thanks, Hart. Thanks a lot. Over to you, Tracy. Yeah, thanks, Hart. So as far as interoperability is concerned, I think it was actually my very first day working for Accenture, where I got involved with the team that was working on our interoperability asset. They really wanted to open source that, figure out how to bring that to Hyperledger. And so what we did was we brought that as first Hyperledger Labs with blockchain integration framework, and then finally into a top-level project with Hyperledger Cactus and Hyperledger, finally Hyperledger Cacti as it got renamed just recently. So yeah, I've been, I guess, involved in the interoperability space since about 2019 and working with the team very closely here at Accenture, including Peter and others with our Labs teams to really bring that into a fruition here at the Hyperledger Foundation. Great. Thanks a lot, Tracy. And last but certainly not least, Yuval, would you mind introducing yourself? Sure, Yuval. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Digital Asset. I'll just jump, given that we don't have that much time. What we're focusing on with respect to interoperability is a few actual projects to show the value out of interoperability. So actually implementing interoperability use cases where we think that it will demonstrate real-world ROI. So doing repo against tokenized bonds, using collateral for securities landings and all kinds of different use cases to actually show the value of interoperability. We also just finished conducting a project with 40 plus market participants where all components of what we consider to be capital markets are interoperating with one another. And then lastly, I mean, a lot of people talk about the technical nature of interoperability. I think that probably the more challenging part of interoperability is agreeing on data models. So I think that technology itself is actually the less challenging, but actually how do you get an industry to coalesce around the data model? Because if technology works, but the data models don't match, there's nothing to interoperate. Absolutely. So perhaps we should probably start by laying sore background. You know, where are we today with interop? Where do we come from? How do we get here? So since you insinuated a storyline about interop, Richard, maybe we'll start with you on this and then the other panelists can chime in. Sure. You have to promise in one of the later questions that I get a chance to tell you what we got right because I'm gonna start by telling you what we got wrong. So if I think back to the early days of when we were building Corder, we made a decision that we didn't even realize was a decision because it seemed so obvious to us. And then in hindsight, it turned out it was. And it turned out it was like, it was a really wrong one. And it was directly related to interop. So here's how we viewed the world back then. You look at public permissionless networks, the Cordernet, so the Bitcoin network, the Ethereum network, there's one of them. There's one Bitcoin network. Yeah, there are some folks, but there is the Bitcoin network and there are lots of different users of that for different purposes. There is one Ethereum network, lots of different contracts on that, they compose, they interoperate, things sit on top of them, there's one Ethereum network. So we kind of assumed that's how private networks would or permission networks would play out. And we designed Corder to work that way. So we designed Corder. So if you wanted to, there could be one global network of Corder nodes. They could find each other, they could interoperate. We even built something that I guess you could look back on as the first public permissioned network, Corder network that any of our customers, any user could join, any legal entity in the world in fact could join to be part of the network. But what we discovered was with one or two notable exceptions, that isn't how it played out. What happened was each major network, and this wasn't just for Corder, we saw it with Fabric as well and other networks as well. Each major network tended to be its own deployment. So there would be in say in our world, the Swiss digital exchange running on Corder, that's its own network. That's different to the Splinter network in Italy. And there's good reason for that. It's kind of obvious in hindsight. They've got different requirements. They need to move at their own speed. They need to have their own governance. They don't necessarily have to move at the speed of the slowest or force everyone to move at the speed of the fastest. But what it meant was each of these networks was a separately governed network. And so the need to interoperate was not as it is on public networks, is the need is not within a single network. It's between instances of networks. And then of course, when she gets to that point, it's just as important that Corder networks can talk to Corder networks as it is Corder networks can talk to Fabric or Bezu or Damel networks. And so that then completely changed the interop strategy, which we'll come to. But that distinction was something that took us a while to realize. Yeah, maybe just to add to that, I think there's some kind of background in the Hyperledger projects that we have. If you look back to Hyperledger Quilt, one of the things that it was looking to do was to interoperate across different ledgers. And those ledgers could be blockchains or they couldn't be blockchains, right? And I think in the last panel we heard that it's just as important for us to interoperate across these networks of many different platforms where we've got the liquidity as well as into platforms that are not blockchain or DLT ledgers, the existing ledgers that we do have today in our everyday world that we're constantly dealing with. So I think there's a lot of space that we can look at from the past as far as where we want to go in the future as well. So not just the blockchain networks and the DLT networks. Yeah, and maybe just lastly, I think that maybe to kind of where I started, I think that the question was like, where did we come from? I think that to me, what's important to understand when it comes to interoperability is really understanding the motivation, why people are so loud about interoperability. And the reality is that they are ledgers that are popping like mushrooms after the rain. And a lot of the market participants are worried that if they're gonna go all in on a ledger, they're gonna get stuck on an island. And therefore, I think one of the concerns and potentially the reason why the industry haven't moved that far, although I don't necessarily buy that is that they wanted the industry to prove that interoperability is possible. I though think that the reason interoperability didn't work till now is because there wasn't a compelling event or a compelling use case that had enough assets and enough volume to actually require interoperability. And that's kind of, I think maybe the point that I was trying to make is, I think interoperability is a technical problem and it's a technical problem that have been proven many times that it could happen. And therefore, for us, and this is what we're seeing now, is I think that there are enough use cases and enough volumes in many areas where suddenly we are starting to see opportunities for interoperability. And therefore, with those opportunities exist, I think that you can actually solve that. Again, I'll repeat, I think that the bigger challenge with interoperability is what it is that you're interoperating and can you actually interoperate these assets to begin with. Awesome, thank you all. That was really interesting. So the next question I have is about open source since after all, we are talking about open source coding today. So what do you all think is the role of open source and interoperability? And can you talk a little bit about how your organization is involved and why you got involved? What business advantages did you see for getting involved in open source with respect to interoperability? And I'll start with you on that one, Tracy. Okay, so yeah, I think the main key here is, back in, I don't even remember when it was, think about the member summit in Tokyo, whenever we had that. I think it was probably very close to the 2019 timeframe where we got together, realized that Accenture was working on an interoperability asset. Fujitsu was working on an interoperability asset. And I really thought, hey, what we really need to do is work together, collaborate together, come together, figure out what this interoperability challenge is that we have, talk to what it would look like to get others involved in this space as well. At the time there was quilts, should we get involved with the quilt project? Should we start our own thing? What is the right sort of thing to do here? What we did is, okay, well, let's start in the labs area. Let's start with a place where others can come in, see what we're working on, come in and collaborate with us. We really want this to be an open community to bring best practices, the general ideas around the way that people are looking at interoperability today. How can we advance this space? Because we knew it was going to be a space that was very important to the future of blockchains. We knew there wasn't gonna be just one blockchain that was out there. And so what can we do to really advance this space as both Accenture and with the rest of the community within the Hyperledger Foundation? And so that's kind of the reasoning behind why we started this project and brought it to the Hyperledger Foundation is to share our knowledge as well as to get knowledge from others. The key here is that I think we've been fairly successful with Hyperledger Cat Guy. We've not only got Fujitsu and Accenture as maintainers IBM is also a maintainer of the project now Hyperledger Cat Guy. We've brought in a lot of people from different areas including the research space, the education space of people who are looking to do things like doctorates. And this group of people has now starting to talk about standards around what interoperability looks like. And so I think in general, I think we've accomplished what we set out to do which was to build a larger community of people thinking about the interoperability space. Great. Yuval or Richard, would you like to add anything? Yeah, sure. Like I said, I think first of all, if we want to be able to interoperate assets I'm just gonna take a very simple example. We wanna interoperate bonds and those bonds will be created in different ledgers. Those bonds need to be the same. So it's not just the underlying technical ability to interoperate zeros and ones across systems but just that those zeros and ones are the same. So there are many initiatives including under the Linux umbrella, for example, Finesse which are trying to actually also open source the data models under all of these assets. So I think that that is just another critical part where open source can play a critical role to achieve interoperability. Yeah, I do agree with that. Just a couple of points to add. So in terms of hard-nest about your open source involvement clearly quarters open source harmony at the hyperledger lab is as well. And from an interoperability perspective I think there are two possibly three really important reasons why perhaps even more so than the ledger it's important that interoperability protocols and associated code are open. First is from a consumer's perspective is just purely strategic. Interoperability is about connections. If you imagine a firm were able to establish a control point as the provider of interoperability that's the mother of all toll bridges. So there's an industry imperative if you're like on the consumer side that interoperability protocol is remain open. There's also a security aspect. Many of these interoperative protocols it attempted to minimize trust. So the protocol itself, the code in the protocol is verifying proofs. It's verifying what happened on the other side. So you need to check that the verifier is correct. You've got to verify the verifier which opens also allows you to do. And then maybe Billy on what I think was one of you Bell's points as well is it's not just about the code. So if I take an example of one of our customers HQ LAX you can think of as they're a firm who in effect tokenizes government bonds. So I think of it as a bond platform. They wanted to be able to do repo. So they wanted their customers to be able to sell bonds in exchange for cash. So cash lived on the network called finality which runs on Hyperledge of Bezu. And so immediately a need for interop was created that led to a harmonia, but it wasn't just the code. One of the issues you have to have is being able to align the code with the business rule books as in how these networks work and convince the lawyers that both of those things together comply with the law. So just one example, many purely technical interop protocols they vary without a great deal of thought they use words like escrow. You know, it's a word the technical people throw around we usually just use it to mean things like lock but lawyers get very, very itchy for them. Escrow is a very, very well-defined term. And so being able to show that the terms of the technical layer map to the rule books the government networks and map to what the lawyers understand to be on compliant with law. Being able to have those discussions in the open so that the whole community understands and the lines behind the same terminology turns out to be super important. Great, thanks a lot. I learned a lot from that response. So another question and I guess, you know more related to the business conditions than the technology. So could you all talk about the marketplace conditions today around interoperability and you know, what is driving adoption why are people getting involved and maybe even a little bit about regulation for those of us that aren't in heavily regulated industries. And I know you've been riffing on this a little bit already today. So maybe I'll hand it over to you. Yeah, sure. So like I said, I think that one of the challenges for interoperability in the past was that there were not real world use cases that required interoperability. Probably the best place where interoperability was taking place was actually in crypto where DeFi needed assets from different chains and people created asset bridges to kind of provide liquidity into some of these DeFi protocols. But now what you're seeing as you know some of the projects that R3 has been working ourselves and others, you're starting to see more and more assets coming into different networks that actually do want to collaborate with one another. I think that in order to drive these use cases given where interest rates are and maybe this is an open source conference and people don't really think about interest rates but market conditions today don't allow people to just play around with technology and just throw money around. One of the things that you're seeing from market participants is there's a strict demand for almost immediate ROI on their investments. And that's why I'm saying it is extremely important when you're thinking about interoperability projects to really understand what is the value add and the revenue opportunity or cost reduction opportunity as a result of that. So that's, you know, we're seeing that there are multiple opportunities. I shared a few in the past, but I think that cash on ledger against, you know tokenized assets and settlement transactions is going to be probably one of the most interoperability story out there in the next few years. And then the last thing that I would say is a lot of interoperability solutions are not just technology-based, but sometimes they are also by using like a third party to intermediate the interoperability transaction. And that maybe is where I would conclude hard with your question around regulatory is we just saw the Basel committee end of last year effectively saying the tokenized assets on permissionless chains will not be recognized as what you call category one asset where they get the financial benefits. And the reason I'm sharing that is one of the things that they stated as their reason for that is giving up control over assets. So I think that if you're going to introduce interoperability where third parties that today do not participate in settlement or some of these transactions and those are not well-known entities or even known entities, you run the risk of regulators being extremely uncomfortable with these type of solutions. So I think looking at the Basel document and really how regulators are concerned with technology that is being introduced to some core functionalities of financial services is going to be an important component of the success of interoperability. Maybe to build on that it's, because I agree with all of that. The job of the technologists or perhaps the tech firms such as ours is to help our customers deploy things that we can easily show or their lawyers can easily be convinced or compliant with the regulation. You know, often I hear people say, oh, I need the regulation to change or I need to be told by the regulator that this is okay. Yeah, that's just too slow and isn't going to happen. Instead, you have to be able to demonstrate that you've understood that context and can demonstrate that the solution you've deployed matches what's required. So to take just another example again from HQLX, Finality and Harmonia. So I gave the example earlier about the meaning of escrow. Another thing is what happens in bankruptcy? So this asset is locked. Okay, so we've agreed it's locked. Okay, now the original owner goes bankrupt. What happens? Similarly, it's locked and interest payment happens. Who gets it? Just being able to have answers to that. The lawyers can tell you what it should be. The rule books can tell you what happens in various edge cases, but you've got to map that down to the technology and say like, and this is how the protocol would support it and demonstrate that those things all line up. And so, yeah, the regulation is important, but we're not waiting for them to tell us what to do. It's our job to show that we're compliant with them. Yeah, and I guess I would just add, not on the regulation side, but more on the technology side, if there's things that we need to be thinking about as far as security, things that we need to be thinking about as far as the different ways in which we can do interoperability. There's, I think you've all mentioned kind of the central party, right? I think that's where we started at Accenture was, okay, there's a central party that will do interoperability across these different networks and then realize, well, this is a blockchain network. Let's start by looking at how we would do an overlay across these blockchain networks to have an understanding and trust of who the parties are that are involved in this particular system. Looking today at the different sorts of bridges that they have on the public permissionless blockchains and the ways in which things are done. But there's a lot of concerns, right? There's a lot of issues that are occurring where people are losing the different assets that they have because of these different sorts of bridges. And so I think, you know, not only looking at the regulation, but also the security and the safety and the trust of the technology that we're implementing is very important. Great, thanks a lot. And I guess one sort of final question before we move to questions from the audience, we've sort of transitioned as Richard outlined earlier from a world where people see blockchain systems as monoliths to a world of many networks where we've seen a lot of different networks and we obviously expect to see some interoperability or communication between them. What do you think the steady-state long-term of the blockchain ecosystem will look like? And what role will interoperability play with that? What will our interoperability systems look like? And I'll open this up to anyone who wants to take a first stab at it. I think that what will end up happening is that certain network will quote unquote win certain use cases or certain assets and it wouldn't make sense necessarily to move from one network to another or move the whole payload or activity from one network to another. And I think what you're going to see is that interoperability will start becoming much more active and developed across those ledgers. Again, no different than I gave that example of an asset bridges into Ethereum because Ethereum became the main area of DeFi and therefore you saw massive development of asset bridges into Ethereum. So I think what you're going to see is that I think within the next two to three years certain ledgers will become kind of like primary destination for certain use cases and assets. And as those ledgers become kind of the anchor tenant for those use cases, you would see interoperability become much more developed and much more serious and mature for these ledgers. Yeah, and then you play that forward. So I completely agree. This is going to be driven by which networks get liquidity, which networks get customers, get demand to take, take finality for example, you know, synthetic CBDC, synthetic digital currency, you know, pounds available right now. If they're successful, there'll be a huge amount of volume. They're running on Hyperledger Bezu. So anybody who wants to be able to interoperate with them needs to be able to interoperate with Bezu. What I think may happen at some point is the networks who get this right and can leverage interoperability to bring demand because they show they're open for business. They show they can accept demand from corridor or Damol Cantone, wherever it might be. They'll have, they will get more traffic to their network. You certainly find that other networks realize they don't just become passive consumers of interop. It's highly in their interest to make sure they're the most interoperable network and that the interoperability protocols out there work best with them. And so I think it creates an incentive for the operators of these networks themselves and not just the tech vendors to get involved with the projects because it becomes a strategic advantage to them that they can be interoperated with. Maybe I'll take a slightly different alternative view on what the future might look like where I think you've all and Richard are very much focused on the networks. I think it's very important to think about as we take back ownership of our identity objects and money, how do we as the people owning those things and the technology that we're using to access those things become interoperable across these different networks, across these different assets, such that potentially my wallet in the future is the space where interoperability actually occurs. It's the space where we think about what it might look like to be able to exchange, for example, a digital dollar with a digital pound directly from my wallet, where I know that I'm going to be visiting the UK and so therefore I want to be able to spend the US digital dollars that I have in the UK but as a digital pound. And so I think there's a lot of things that we could be thinking about in the future and I don't say that this is a tomorrow sort of thing or next year sort of thing, but I do think that this is the space where we should be trying to think about going potentially five years from now as we start to really look at that ownership of our own identity objects and money. Yeah, absolutely Tracy. I also agree that digital identity will play a huge role in all of this, particularly if we want things to work seamlessly. So we have a few minutes left. Is there anyone from the audience that would like to ask any of our panelists a question? Please feel free to post in chat. I guess if there are no questions from the audience, I will send sort of Tracy's remark back to, I guess we have a question. Are there any thoughts on ISO standards? I'm willing to take the controversial position, which is I think standards get said by winners. Setting standards is usually, in my opinion, happens when market reaches some form of stability. Trying to create standards in a vacuum where there's no clear direction where things are going, in my opinion, ends up taking too long and wasting a lot of people's time. So I think allowing the market participants, the players to really develop some of these use cases, see where center of gravity goes towards, will then eventually create these ISO standards, which I think eventually become extremely important. Yeah, I agree with that. It's kind of, to factor, to start with rough consensus, get something working. I think there's value then in then trying to formalize, consolidate and bed everything down subsequently. And then the trick then is to make sure it doesn't become politicized and you end up in like the POSIX walls or something. But yeah, I agree with that. And I think someone on the chat is mentioning Finesse. I think that that's a good example. Finesse did not get created in a vacuum. It actually created by market participants that came with quite a lot of market position already that had value and real traction. And then said, can we actually open source some of that traction and effort and make that into an open source standard, which is extremely valuable. Yeah, and so I would just maybe add on that, that hyperledger cacti is a place within the hyperledger foundation where we are looking to create this de facto standard, where we're looking to bring in the community and collaborate with others on what interoperability should look like in the future. And so obviously I would invite anybody on the call or anybody listening to the video, either now or at a later point, to come in and participate. That community is very opening, very welcome and welcoming. And I would highly recommend just having a conversation and bringing your thoughts and your knowledge to that community. And just to response to that, because I've got firsthand experience of that. We were a firm with that horror who came to hyperledger with a different approach to interoperability for a particular financial market use case. And Tracy and the cacti team, Hart, a whole bunch of hyperledger projects and executive members were extraordinarily welcoming and helpful, even though our code base creates complexity as well as well as value. So I can completely echo what Tracy just said. Wonderful. I think we're out of time. So thank you very much, Yuval, Tracy and Richard. It was great talking to you. I certainly learned a lot and I hope everyone else did too. So Daniella, back to you. Still learning how to zoom. Anyway, thank you, Richard, Yuval, Tracy and Hart for this great conversation around the topic of interoperability. I think earlier in the webinar, someone asked about like, haven't we really figured this out? And Yuval's comments specifically around that the technology has basically proven that interoperability is possible, but we need the compelling use cases. We need the real world use cases that we're seeing across multiple networks. And I'm glad Richard also spoke about the fact that the Hyperledger Foundation and the umbrella of projects that we have in our Hyperledger Labs area is a place for us to bring these open source projects to be able to collaborate together really across blockchain networks. It's not just about being a hyperledger project. It's about projects that occur and are active and are bringing value to the markets across the entire ecosystem in blockchain, both in the public and permissioned blockchain space. So I like to close by, we did a very fast tour of some of the projects that have been in the Hyperledger Foundation umbrella since the 2016 timeframe. And we continue to see new projects come in, as I mentioned, within the Hyperledger Labs where projects are very active and moving into our project lifecycle. And a lot of the project work that we do in the interoperability space, for example, with Hyperledger Cacti across multiple networks and multiple communities. And we welcome everyone to come join us in these projects as we go around. I want to highlight, obviously we are early in 2024 and we have a lot of great news. We just announced this week that we have the Web3J project, but we announced, we'll be announcing more projects, more interesting open source projects that are happening in the lab. So please keep an eye out and participate and contribute to those things. I know we have a lot of projects and a lot of things going on. So last year we also launched a great resource for everyone to be aware of what's happening within the project umbrella ecosystem with our project matrix. So I would encourage you to take a look to see which projects within our umbrella are addressing which needs in down to what languages they are coded in and other important things that are important to understand about these project communities. We now have a use case tracker where over 200 plus use cases are identified with the description and also with details for more information, whether these use cases are POC or in production. So I encourage you to look at the tracker and if you have use cases that use hyperledger technologies, please submit your own use cases. The more we tell the world about how blockchain is being used in real use cases, the more community interest we get and the more developers and support we can get into our project. So please do check out our use case tracker on our website. And this is just one anniversary, happy eighth anniversary webinar. And we do meetups, workshops and webinars on a weekly basis. Just today we had a Spanish meetup with IO builders around building a world asset tokenization platform with Hyperledger Basu. Tomorrow we have deploying hyperledger fabric networks with Kubernetes using Bevel operator. And that's another hyperledger project, Hyperledger Bevel. Next week we are hosting one of our members around deploying and hosting EPC nodes based on Hyperledger Basu coming out of the European Union. And our workshops once again are very well attended. It's a great way to get hands on and our next workshop will be in April around zero knowledge proofs and ZK programming in blockchain application development. A key topic in the entire blockchain community and one that our own Hyperledger Foundation community is addressing and you'll see more projects and more opportunities to engage in throughout this year. As a reminder, we are a Hyperledger open community. Everyone is welcome to join our meetups, our webinars and our workshops. And our Discord community continues to grow. We have close to 5,000 users now. Any of the maintainers and contributors that you want to meet within our community please pop into the Discord. We have channels on each project, on each labs and other community channels as well. So we look forward to finding you there and please do reach out on Discord to myself or to the rest of staff as well. So first I want to thank my staff, all the Hyperledger staff members who have worked behind the scenes, especially Tomas Seja who has been our director of today's webinar. So Tomas, thank you so much for all your support over the last few weeks to get this going and Karen and Tony, as well as all the other staff members supporting it. And I want to thank our members and every single panelist that spoke today, everyone who's contributed to the Hyperledger Foundation over the last eight years and who will continue to show up every single day and talk about what's real, what are the opportunities for our community and how can we build that together, building better together forever. So if you're ready to shape the future of decentralized technologies, please join us, please join our community and please become a member as well. We'd love to host you as a member of our community and help once again build the future of blockchain. So thank you all. I hope everybody has a fantastic day and here's to the next eight years with the Hyperledger Foundation. Thank you.