 Jimmy K here, Metal Voice. Look at us. The Metal Voice shirts are now on sale. Just go to the video description to find out on how you can purchase one. Metal! And welcome to the Metal Voice today on the show. A special, special guest. A guy who's just released or is going to release his new album Thorns. The one, the only. My friend Tony Martin. And of course joining us with us today as a co-host Jaws Lavery. What's going on guys? Never heard of him. Who's that guy? Who's that guy Jaws? Tony right off the bat. Let me just, let me just pull it up the sheet here. Thorns will arrive on January 14th on Battle God Productions and Dark Star Records. Battle God will handle the distribution in Australia, Asia, Europe and Japan while Battlestar will handle it in North and South America. You know, right off the bat. You know, Jaws, you want to start off with a question on the new album? I love the record. I think this is going to be, this is perfect timing I think because over the last sort of five or so years or longer, I think your era of Sabbath has got a real, people have taken a second look at it, or even a first look at it, if they didn't listen to it the first time. Those records have really come into their own as far as whether it's people, you know, finding used copies or listening to them on YouTube or however they're listening to them. There's a lot of love for that era, which I, you know, I was the guy in the early 90s that was in, you know, at school telling people, you've got to listen to the headless cross. Don't just listen to paranoid. You've got to listen, you know, I was that guy. So first of all, why now? Do you feel the timing's right? Is that a big part of it? And, or is it just, is there something, a record that you've been working on, you know, for years and years and years, or did you just sort of last year go right time for another solo album? Okay, thanks for your question, mate. Yes, and yes. Great. Did that really inform you? Well, the time is right. The time's right for lots of reasons and reasons that we didn't intend. I mean, you know, COVID put us into a lockdown in all around the world in different places where, you know, can't do much, can't go anywhere. So music in whatever you listen to is important now. I think music is a light in the darkness, kind of. So for that reason, the timing is right. But yes, it has taken years and years it's actually taken 10 years to get this album running. That's because my life, my career, my existence took me into the studio as a songwriter, recording, all that kind of thing. And I do a lot of guest appearances and sessions and stuff like that. So in my world, when something comes into the studio, the solo album gets put to one side, and then you work on that, then the solo album comes out, and then something else comes in and you put the solo album to one side and then you work on that. So it just got stretched out and stretched out in time. But also, it sort of evolved. The album originally was called Book of Shadows. And I was going in that kind of direction until I met Scott McClellan on Facebook. And he started sending me riffs and things and slowly this thing changed. Well, by the time I was even thinking about getting it completed, he released an album called Book of Shadows. Come on, tell me. You know what? It's coming to my head. I know who released it. I just don't remember who it was. Bruce Dickinson, won't it? I made the Book of Souls. That's right. That's it. So I thought, okay, we can't use that title anymore. So then it changed to Black Widow Angel, then it changed again, and eventually we arrived at the name Thorns. So in answer to your question, it's taken 10 years for lots of different reasons, but the timing is right, I think. Now people are looking forward to kicking the heels and getting out there and rocking again, I think. I think so. And let me ask you this. Me and Jaws, we've heard it, and personally, and we've already reviewed it, and we thought it was your voices at its peak. You're doing a great vocal, great songs, and a professional production. Now, one of these half-assed productions that you hear today, a beautiful production, for those who haven't heard the album, just describe the musical direction you chose on this album on the various songs. If you listen to this album, that's what it sounds like. That's what's in my head. That's what my head does. It flips from one kind of thing to another. And so you've got a mixture of really heavy stuff with some unplugged acoustic stuff. There's a lot of melodies. There's always a story, but everything I write has to have a story. There's got to be a beginning, a middle, and an end to everything. So there's always a tale to follow. There are lots of people on the album. Friends, they're all known to me. They're all great people. There's no strangers. Apart from Scott McClellan, who I met on Facebook 12, 15 years ago. Everybody else is known to me, and I trust them, and I like what they do. So it's a mixture of whole family, buddy, rock, acoustic stuff that just goes everywhere. And that's kind of what my head sounds like. If you was me, that's what it would sound like in my head, just all over the place and just enjoying every minute of it. It's just great to have that freedom to bounce off any wall that you want and not be stuck in a box, which is a curse for me. So it's diverse. That's what you're saying. It's a diverse piece of work. It's a bit of a curse for me. My head won't allow me to stay in one place too long. Well, this is certainly a brilliant album, and I'm excited. I'm excited for everyone else to hear it, so we can all talk about it on Facebook and celebrate it. Because I think it's brilliant. Again, it's long overdue, but again, the timing is right. Any plans to reissue your first solo record? I don't know about that. This is what I'm all about. Inside my head, right, the first one, you're talking about back where I belong, right? Okay, so that was me trying to be a 1980s kind of pop rock dude. Okay, it was kind of okay-ish for the time, but that wasn't really me. And then the second one's screaming, well, it got a bit heavier by then, but that still wasn't really me. This one is really me. This is what Tony Martin sounds like if I'm let loose. So Pamela Moore, famous from her role in Queens Rake, Sister Mary, how did you go about- at first it wasn't in the liner notes that she was there. So I didn't really- I go, who's this voice? I couldn't pin it down. I go, who's this person? And it was Pamela Moore. So you want to tell us about how that came about and her contributions to the album? Um, I've never met Pamela Moore. Okay. She- she- Neither have I. Oh, wow! That's cool. She was another Facebook friend, but it turned out that we've known each other now on Facebook for years and years and years. And so from time to time, we just kind of bump into each other on Facebook and we have this little mini, uh, bust up thing. She's got exactly the same birthday as me. And so she says like, you're my- you're my brother from another mother and you're like, you know, like this dude who I relate totally to. Well, never met. Anyway, we've had this banter thing going on for some years. Now the song Thorns, which is the one she sings on, um, it's really about domestic abuse, kind of a woman who is severely abused and she self harms, you know, people cut themselves and stuff like that. And so she goes inward and then the character can't then, uh, engage with anybody and any word of kindness feels like thorns sticking in the skin. You can't stand it. Well, I can't sing that. I needed a girl to sing that. And so I started thinking about it and then her name came up and went Pamela, Pamela Moore. Oh yeah, Pamela Moore. So I got onto Facebook and said, do you want to sing something? Yes, of course I do. And that was it. She was on the album. So I think she did a great job. Yeah. Yeah. Just a great job of putting across that, um, tension and that fear of a female voice, you know, it just, uh, it's great. Really, really cool. Yeah, she did a fantastic job. Well, I guess the another inevitable question, will the Sabbath albums ever, ever get reissued that you are on? I have no idea. You probably know. With bonus tracks and a nice box and like, you know, like they've done with almost every other Sabbath album. Okay. Let me tell you how that came about because I think it's weird. Right. It is weird. Right. We had a guy in Black Sabbath called Jeff Nichols. He was the keyboard player, you know, Jeff? Yes. He died four years ago. And, um, when we was at Jeff Nichols funeral service, um, I bumped into Tony, I owe me there. And he said, I've got loads of stuff to play you and, um, you know, we have to get together and see if we can write some new songs and then maybe we can rerelease the Tony Martin era albums. I thought, well, that's cool. Oh, yeah. Okay. Whatever. Then the phone went dead for ages, months and months and months. So I called him back and he said, you know, come over to the house and we'll talk about it. So I said, okay. So I went to his house and he said, we can't do it. I went, what? He said, we can't do it. I said, why not? He said, because there's an agreement with the guys of Sabbath that they can only re-release something under the Sabbath name if it's the original Sabbath members. Nobody else can record anything under the Sabbath name. How does that square with all the reassures they've done with Dio stuff? Do you remember that they changed, they went out and they called it Heaven and Hell, I think, didn't they? Or something? They went out as a band. Um, what they said, what he said was, what we can do is just re-issue the albums. Right. We can't add anything to it. So what we're expecting, if he ever gets round to it, is for the Tony Martin era albums, apart from Eternal Idol, because that's owned by somebody else, if the Tony Martin era albums to be re-issued, remixed probably in the case of Forbidden, but I think it'll just be as it was. However, the phone went dead again and now I haven't got a clue. Honestly, I really don't know what's happening. So, you know, if it does happen, you can use outtakes from the respective eras. I would assume you just kind of record new. Only stuff that's already been recorded at the time. Right. So, you know, I searched through, I've got hundreds of tapes and, you know, things from the writing sessions. I've got the tapes when Eddie Van Halen was with us writing on cross purposes. I sent that over to Tony. That appeared on YouTube. I don't know how that got out. But I've got all sorts of stuff like that. And I thought that was the kind of thing that they would, you know, re-issue the albums with. But, mate, I have no idea. Like I said, you probably know more than me. But about like, I read, thank you for that. I read the autobiography of Tony Iomi, you know, and I'm sure you did too, or at least maybe you've heard about it. Nope. Nope. Okay. I mean, do you think it was a little unfair? I mean, like I reading, and I mean, you were there holding the band together. You brought in so much great music that people have appreciated more over the years. You know, to this day, people are saying, you know what, I missed that Tony Marniera. Were you kind of disappointed in his autobiography and sort of maybe the portrayal of you? I didn't actually really, I really didn't. Okay. But people have told me, you know, except sort of what's in there. He, you see, he's looking at it from his point of view. If you ask me the same stories, you will get a different answer. Perspective. So I, my story hasn't been told. Nobody really has expanded on anything that happened with me in the days. And I keep meaning to write a book, but I'm just not disciplined enough to be able to put something together. Like if you're listening to me now in the way I talk, I just talk. And I wanted to write a book in that way to explain everything. But that doesn't work in the book apparently. So anyway, I have a different take on it. And from my side, you would have to understand that I am 12 years younger than the guys. And it was, it was like being the younger brother. You know, if you've got like, if you're 20 year old blog, and you've got like a 12 year old brother, you don't want to take him around with you everywhere. He's going to cramp your style and stuff like that. Their circle of friends is completely different to my circle of friends. You know, the distance, the experience they had was way more than I'd ever had. So it was just a disconnection between me and the rest of the guys. And all the way, I was having to try and keep up with them. If you're not, I mean, it was just constant learning curve all the time I was with them. That made it really hard work. On top of that, they had like four managers or something like that, and they don't speak direct to you. So the message, the message goes up from them to the managers, through the managers, down through my manager to me, and then back up across down. It just made it really hard work. So, you know, with that background, and not knowing if you're in the band or not, made it really difficult. So they have a completely different take on it, you know, to my side of the story, which is a bit more realistic, I think. But yeah, I don't doubt that that's what he feels. But until you hear the other side of the story. So when's that book coming then? When's that book coming out? When are you going to get it down? I know you've been telling me this, you texted me, yeah, the book's coming, the book's coming, the book's coming with it. I have tried. I have tried. Okay. You could do an audio book. You know what, that's not a bad idea. That's right. Just an audio book, that's all you gotta do. Yeah, yeah, I just took my ass off. And then, you know, but that's the way it sort of comes out to me. If you asked me what date it was, in fact, I am not a clue what date it was, but I know, you know, what the thing is, I would have to go back and check, you know, in the tour books and find out what was happening at the time to put a date or a time or things like that. But, you know, I've been associated with Sabre for 11 years or something since 1986, was the first contact I had with their then manager, which was Patrick Meehan at the time. And they were having problems with Glenn Hughes doing the seventh star, was it at the time I think? Yeah, and then I think they'd had some problems with Glenn, and they put me on standby, which scared me to death, because I can't sing like Glenn Hughes. Nobody can sing like Glenn Hughes. And then they found Glenn, and then it went to Ray Gillan, then he left. Then they put me on standby again, and then they got me down to the studio in London, and that's how it all began, you know. So there's lots of stories from my side which don't get told. Yeah, well, yeah, maybe one day, maybe one day you get that book out. Yeah, no. Is it going to be another 10 years before you do another solo record? I don't think so. I mean, I'm already writing more with Scott. He's a great, great guy to work with, and reminds me in many ways of working with Tony Aimee. He's so prolific, just keeps on churning stuff out. It's amazing how a mind creates and freedom to create is just brilliant. The great thing about Scott really is, he's not like a raging great solo player, but his riffs and the story he tells with guitar is really cool, and it works with my voice. So to that end, the labels asked me to write some more tracks, and then they'll release a double vinyl album later on in the year. So that's going to be something to look forward to later on. But we've also, he's also sent me 39 new tracks of guitar that we can get two albums out of, you know? I don't think it will be that long in the future. We've already started writing more. To that end, when you think about touring, I don't have a band. I hire the musicians, whoever's available at the time, makes it awkward because you have to wait for people to be available. But these guys on the album, I think they'll be the guys that I would like to take with me. I know other names have been mentioned, but I'm decided yet on what to do with it. But in any case, until the COVID thing sort of gives us a chance, my country might say, yeah, you can go, but your country might say, no, you ain't coming here. It's what I do for a living. I manage a number of different artists, as you know, and it's just been a logistical nightmare that no one can understand unless they're trying to do. Yeah. And honestly, I don't think it would this year. I'm not sure it'll be next year. So in the meantime, you know, hey, what would you write another album and maybe two albums, you know, after one of them? What kind of set list would you do? Would you bring in, you know, the black Sabbath material, or do you want to strictly stick to Tony Martin stuff? Or what would you do? You'd have to include some black Sabbath stuff. I mean, that's why people know who I am. Some Dio, maybe some, you know, some Dio. Oh, just strictly Tony Martin era. Why would he go out and do Dio songs, Jimmy? Because he can. That's why, because he can. He's the only black Sabbath singer other than Dio who can do Dio. That's why. There's plenty of Sabbath stuff. Right, Tony? Like, look, I heard, I heard. Sorry. Let me just tell you this, right? I used to do some Dio stuff because Jeff Nichols was involved in the writing of some of that Heaven and Hell and things like that. And so in respect to Jeff, we used to, he used to be in my band and we used to play some of that. But now Jeff isn't there. I tend to concentrate on the Tony Martin era of black Sabbath. So it would be, you know, headless cross or eternal idols stuff or things like that. But not masses of it. I mean, I don't want this thing to get hijacked by, you know, the Sabbath thing. And here's the other main point is because I don't have a band and I have to hire the musicians, if you're not careful, it's, it can start sounding and looking like a tribute act. Yeah. Because, you know, there's a certain sound that goes with black Sabbath and you have to learn that. It's not, it's not immediately obvious. And so you can't just throw a bunch of guys together and expect it to sound like black Sabbath. It sounds, it can sound like a bit of a tribute act and it can look a bit like a tribute act as well. People running around the stage and stuff, which is, is not the sort of atmosphere that you need when you're playing that Sabbath material. So it is hard. I would do some Sabbath stuff and I would do like, especially the Tony Martin era, because I know what that is supposed to do. But then, you know, concentrating on the solo things, and especially with this new guitar player, Scott, who's really, really worth looking out for. I think you'll hear more of him along the way. But, you know, it's, it would have to be worked out. And I've told the labels this, that if we do tour this, it's just got to be done right. You know, it can't be just thrown together. It's really, really got to be done right. So it's something we have to work on. And for me, that means starting from scratch from the very beginning. And that just makes it slightly harder, along with the COVID thing and the, and the rest of the stuff. It's just an extra thing that you got to take care of, you know. Yep. Have you ever sat down with Ozzie, talked to Ozzie, had a conversation on the phone with Ozzie, or sharing for that matter? No, no, no. And I only spoke to Ronnie James Dio once. Okay. I'm just going to tell you. Tony Iommi had invited me to backstage to do one of the gigs of the dehumanizer tour. And Ronnie wasn't happy at all that I was there. He was just, what the fuck is he doing here? So I just momentarily, just momentarily managed to get hold of his attention as he walked by. Ronnie, right. So he walked over and he just stared at me. Like, and I said, Ronnie, look, I love what you're doing. This whole singer shit. I'm not interested, but I just wanted to tell you that you're a hard act to follow. And he said, good, and walked off. That was it. Wow. That was it. So, you know, I very briefly spoken to Ronnie, but he was unhappy that I was there. He wasn't pleased that Tony Iommi had invited me. But that's when that whole dehumanizer thing was, it's all very mixed up. And they were, they were having problems, you know, I don't really know what the problems were, to be honest. But they'd asked me to go back and do some stuff for the dehumanizer thing. And I did try, but we couldn't do it. They didn't have enough time for us to rewrite it and do stuff. So they carried on with Ronnie in the end. But it was all very tense at the time. Yes. Well, and you came back for cross purposes, which was yet another brilliant record. I love that one. Speaking of thorns, I witness immaculate deception, the hand that rocks the cradle, that's some absolutely fantastic tunes on that record. I love that one. I do. And a shift from where we were before, because Jeff Nichols brought a melodic keyboard background to Sabbath music, which enabled Ronnie and Tony to explore, you know, layers of sounds and things like that, which is completely different from the Aussie era, which was like a three piece band. And they were making much more basic music. So once we'd got past tier headless cross on tier, which we were making like things complicated for ourselves, because I was doing, you know, 50 tracks of vocals and Tony was doing like 20 tracks of guitars and and stuff like that. When it came to cross purposes, it went back pretty much to the basic thing where we wrote it before we went into the studio, rather than work on it when we're in the studio. So when Giza came back for cross purposes, it kind of went back to the sort of three piece sound. Jeff was still there, but it wasn't lots of stuff being layered. So it was a very big shift from tier to cross purposes, you know, but it was great. Working with Giza was really cool. Yeah. What about the tour of, you know, when you went out on tour, I guess it would be after, I guess it would be cross purposes in the US versus Europe. The difference in, you know, the audience, you know, how they accepted you or, you know, or Black Sabbath in general, more in Europe than in North America. Right. Yeah. Europe has definitely been the prominent place for me. Whether you could say for Sabbath, I mean, Sabbath had a huge following in America already. And that's hard to, what would you say? It's hard to beat or it's hard to match or, you know, it's a feeling, a challenge, you know, that it's really, really big to overturn, not that you want to overturn it, but to match it or to take that and make it your own is hard. And so generally, I think what the idea was, let's go to Europe, get it all built up and, you know, functioning and working, then we'll go to America. Well, it kind of worked and it was reasonably well received. But, you know, it took a long time, I think, and that's why you're hearing now people are just reaching out for the albums now, because they've had space now to sort of think about it and to sort of reconnect with the albums that we were doing at the time. Now it kind of makes sense. But at the time, you're just following another singer, you know, back then. And Ronnie had to do it as well. I mean, Jeff Nichols told me that when Ronnie first joined, his problem was following Ozzy. You know, he had a real big shift to and that kind of challenge for him. So every singer goes through it. And Savits had more singers than you know, most people have had breakfast. But, you know, it's a challenge, mate. It's a challenge. Well, I think you rose to it very, very, very well, indeed. Thank you. I did my best. I'm not sure there is anything else I could do. As I said to you, I mean, I was 12 years behind them in everything, experience and age. And it was a constant learning curve for me. I never, ever quite caught them up, you know, because that experience was always 12 years ahead of me. And, you know, it was really hard. It was like being the younger brother that nobody wanted to take with them. But they liked my voice. And I was cheap. So they got you on the cheap, huh? They got you on the cheap. Okay, so there was heaven in hell. I mean, could there be a Martin, I don't know, the headless cross band, you know, you just, Martin goes out with IOMI and, you know, we call it headless cross or cross purposes or we can call it tear. I don't know. We could call it something of some sort of legacy there. Headless cross is mine. You can't hit that one. No. But yeah, it could be called something. But I honestly, I don't think it will happen. To me, I think the only place they could go was back with Ozzy. And I did keep asking them when I was there. I said, are you guys planning to get back together? No, no, no. It's just rumors. It's just rumors. Yeah, right. With Black Sabbath, you have to read between the lines like constantly. And my manager was telling me stuff. So we already kind of knew which way it was going. And so, you know, it was just like everything was just hard work, really. Yeah. Well, what a great legacy and what a great body of work. And hopefully it gets the, hopefully it gets the reissue treatment it deserves one day. But, you know, let's not worry about that for the minute, because on Friday, there was a fantastic new Sony Titan record out called Thorns. Everyone should buy it twice. They should definitely buy it twice. Tony, has everything been okay with the payments over the years with the record companies with publishing or royalties? Have you had any issues with that? Yeah, loads of issues. Everybody has issues with royalties and getting stuff. It never, everybody promises stuff in the beginning and it never quite works out the way you sort of thing. So you're usually grateful for whatever does come. But, you know, if the album isn't on sale, you're not going to get any royalties. So, you know, the whole Tony Martin era Black Sabbath stuff isn't on sale. So I don't get a penny from Black Sabbath. No, nothing. It's not on sale. So my royalties tend to come from all the guest appearances and the sessions that I do, you know, since then. My voice appears on 75 albums or projects or something now. And so, you know, that's what keeps me afloat, stuff like that. But I don't get a penny from Sabbath. And that's because it's just not on sale. I mean, if they ever reissue it, then I would expect to get something. But, you know, I'd have to wait and see. All right. Go ahead, Charles. Well, I think I'm good. Any final questions, Jimmy? I think my final question would be, you spoke about it really briefly. Eddie Van Halen, since, of course, the passing of Eddie. I don't know, your feelings about, you know, just working with him in that brief period, thoughts of his, you know, as a guitar player, as a person, as an influence. I mean, as a guitar player, what can you say? Dude was just talented. And he stumbled across a technique which was just unique to him and like, didn't everybody try to do that, you know, since it's just like a fabulous. And I love, you know, people who are at the top of their game. I just love that. I mean, I don't have an ounce of jealousy inside me. If somebody's good at something, you praise them, you know, for whatever they do, whatever it is, because if they're at the top of the game, it's a joy, you know, it's just a joy. And I didn't even know he was coming. So like, Tony, I owe me just turned up with Eddie Van Halen. Man, look who I brought. Yeah, it was just like that. What? You're kidding me. I haven't combed my hair or anything. It was just like a complete surprise. He just turned up. Eddie's just popped around for a jam. Okay, so I have an eight track I had, an eight track recording scene. I just pressed record. Just press record. Just press record. Leave that on. So I did get the recording of Eddie sort of playing with us, which is, it was amazing, really cool. And then in no time at all, he'd gone again, and I never saw him again. I only saw him once at Donnington. Why are you years back? And we was backstage at the time, but we never got a chance to speak then. So my relationship with Eddie was very short and very limited, but wow, how cool was that? That was awesome. Yeah. And he came in and he sort of, he just brought his guitar and plugged into one of Tony's amps and they just jammed and just played. And I'm just sat there going, oh my God. He didn't actually play on the record though, did he? He was, he was. No, I wrote the song, I think. If I remember correctly, weren't they on tour or something? And they happened to be in England at the time and Tony managed to grab Eddie on, you know, a couple of days and sort of hung out. But I think they were on tour. So no, he didn't play on the actual album. But I do have the recording of Eddie playing on, what track was it? No, Evil Eye. Yeah, Evil Eye. And it was fab. It was really good. I mean, as soon as the recording starts, you can tell who is who. You can tell Iome is playing and you can tell Eddie's playing. So it's so obvious, but it sounds great when you listen to it. It's really, really cool. You know what? I just have one last question. Yeah, keep going. I'll just talk. And that's it. And then I'll let you go. I know you're a busy guy. Did you ever get tired of just being the replacement in Blacks? Like, you know, they kept calling, like, you're such a nice guy. I mean, to keep going back there and I guess the voice is what always brought them back to you, right? You had a great voice. Did you just saying, you know, guys, can you just, I'm tired of being the replacement guy and I'm tired of always picking up after everyone sort of picking up the pieces in a sense, right? I didn't say that, but I did have a conversation, like, you know, to sort of say it would be great to be feel like it was more part of the band. Honestly, it never happened. I was always the new guy and I was always going to be the new guy. And so once you get that sort of in your head, then you just have to do the best you can, work the best you can with the work you've got. I knew that they liked my voice. But it was just the gap between us, the experience and the distance of their friends, the circles of friends, everybody was separate and distant. And it was just really hard work in that respect. But I did try to be part of that. I just couldn't keep up with them. They were just, you know, way out in front of me. And that was just tiring, really. And the whole management structure thing where, you know, the guy is on stage with you, like 10 feet away, but they won't talk to you. They'd rather send a message up through the managers and then down to your management stuff like that. It's a little bit spinal tap for want of a better. That's interesting you say that because that was Ray Wilson's big complaint about when he fronted Genesis. He said, you always felt like you could never just talk to the band. It's weird, isn't it? And when you're on the plane or if you're, you know, when you do get to hang out at the hotel or whatever, they talk normally. Nice guys. I mean, they're all great guys. Tony, I always a lovely guy. But the management makes it really worse. I mean, there was one point, was it cross purposes? So Giza had his manager, I've got a manager. Tony, I always got three managers. So there was like five managers all doing their thing. And it was it was just a United Nations meeting. That's what it is. It's a board meeting. There's an awful lot of what? Sorry. It's an awful lot of commission. Yeah, five, 20%. He's 100%. Right. There you go. Yeah. Good thing you were cheap, then. Yeah, cheap. Mate, it was so cheap. I was getting just hundreds of books. There was nowhere near them. Nowhere near them. But in fact, I think the Sam guy got paid more than me. Yeah, right. All right. So yeah, I guess on that, go ahead. Sorry. I can't complain too much. I mean, like after all, you know, Black Sabbath is what got me out into the world. And it's the reason why people know my voice. And ultimately, it's the reason why I'm here, like doing thorns now, because that that voice has carried me from what I developed way, way back then. So Sabbath is important. You know, it's got a great story and lots of great people have been involved in it. And I have nothing bad to say about any of them really. All right. So I was just going to say thorns to be released January 14. It's probably on preorder right now. And you could probably even get it right now, I would think. Very exciting. Congratulations. Thank you so much for for spending the time with us. I know that you're a busy man. And we appreciate, you know, your talent. We appreciate your time. And let's do it again when you have your next project. Any closing remarks? Any you'd like to say? You're okay, Giles? Yeah, I'm good. I'm all right. I think we've covered everything really. Yeah, well, you demand it's been a long time since we've seen each other. But yeah, actually, I owe you an email, I think. So I'll get onto that. Well, do that. Do that. Now, anytime you guys want to talk, I mean, you know what I'm like, I'll just keep talking. Yeah, that's getting on. And thank you for your interest in the album. It is important to me. And I am very happy with it. So yeah, bring it on, I