 George Bruno with the 21 report the European edition. We are in Warsaw, Poland, and I'm talking with Richard Granin welcome Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. Absolutely Wow, what a talk. I was in there taking notes, and I got some of those notes here. We're gonna talk about those things Where do you get the insight from? That you teach it's powerful I'm lucky in that in that regard. I think there's a there's a natural tendency towards certain things and I'm lucky in that I can take a concept a problem and a situation and I seem to be able to just go Oh, that's like this. Oh, that's like this. That's like this It's probably like a manifestation of ADHD in some sense, but and when it comes to issues related to psychology I Can see clearly. I mean if you ask me about finance or mathematics There would be a very different response. I can assure you But if it's if it's my thing if it's psychology, it just pops up in my head. I can say oh, there it is That's quite clear. That's quite clear to me. But yeah, I'm lucky. Very lucky. Oh, wow It you know I I can only talk about a couple things There was so much content there on stage give us the Just the short version The short version is I'm focused on a concept at the moment that came from my work where I work with people who've been in abusive relationships bad divorces bad relationship bus stops and usually they're they're people who've been with abusive personality types narcissist psychopaths and so on and they Develop a tendency in the way that they respond to relationships and the way they respond to life and this is typically called codependency yes, and What a lot of people in abusive relationships do is they sit in them knowing it's bad Hoping it will get better even though it can't and hoping isn't a strategy. Is it? Yeah, not really And even when they're presented normally intelligent people are presented with tons of evidence to the contrary like it's not going to get Better and they still just keep on hoping so I started to look at the concept of becoming toxically passive like toxic passivity toxic passivity Wow Wow describe that how would you I never heard anyone say that how would you define that I? Would define it by inviting people to look first at how we're living now I mean that where our culture so-called culture is up to now It is the embodiment of a toxic kind of passivity where watching ourselves and we're watching life slipped by and Literally not figuratively we watch it on phones. We watch ourselves on social media It's not affecting us as much, but I think for younger people coming up who are digital natives They're born with a smartphone in their hand My personal theory is it's actually splitting the ego So they're very fundamentals of the human personality is now splitting So there's the real me and then there's the online me Wow So we would think well the online you is not as important the online Wow is the real important one, you know I saw cartoon I don't I don't know if it was like Bizarro world or one of these Interesting funny cartoons and it showed like if the Titanic sank today and had all the survivors You know like in their little Life vests floating in the water holding up cameras watching the Titanic sink. Yeah. Yeah Like live-casting it to their Instagram. Oh my god hashtag lol can't believe this is happening freezing to death. Hashtag hypothermia Yeah, they would I'm sure I'm 100% sure that there would be many people who did and that's the first instinct It's worse the younger you are because of neuroplasticity or more open to her But we're just as where we're susceptible to Using the technology it won't I don't think it'll split our egos the way it does for them But the technology is so well crafted to make you that way. It's such a brilliant conditioning tool. Yes Built by the world's experts. It's had billions of dollar thrown thrown into it Just to get people to that state that you know, we're all susceptible to it But that's toxic passivity. I'm no longer in the driving seat of my life I'm watching it happen problem comes up with with women with men with finance with life, whatever We process in this toxically passive way and we pretend that we're not in the driving seat That it's not it's like a story that were that we're watching rather than living first-hand and that's really sad People have lost the ability to live first-hand You said something regarding the manosphere, which is a word I I Swear every day that I'm never gonna use that word, but it's awful. Isn't it horrible. I just Don't I don't like that that glossary of words. I'm really trying to get away from it Yeah, but you said it's not alpha or beta. It's not about being blue pill or red pill. It's more Being an adult or a child mm-hmm as a man. Yes explain that The I think because the it's called the manosphere So that's like in response to the womanosphere, I suppose and it's a risk. It's a reaction It's a response to an ideology that has been putting women first irresponsibly Unfairly and in a totally unjustified way. So that this is it's a response to that So naturally it creates a dichotomy. We live in an era of just rampant with dichotomies, but it's a false dichotomy Yes, it's not man versus versus women. It's not black versus white or left versus right. All of this is Garbage. It's a total distraction really the challenge that we face as human beings is Child versus adult the social media the culture we live in it wants to keep us in infantilized consumers Obsessed with the material world so that we keep buying products and they can stick keep harvesting taxes because Love is free and the best things in life really are free being intimate with somebody loving somebody. They can't tax that So so in a very real sense love is the enemy of the agenda It's a hundred percent the enemy because if you're with a beautiful goal and you're spending time with her and you feel good And you're fulfilled. You don't need to buy all the stuff that I want you to buy you don't need to pay me taxes You can just be yes, you can just be and you can just be content and that that sucks for me So I need to stop that. Yeah. Yeah, that makes They want to keep us consuming and not producing or creating right a hundred percent you didn't touch on that being just a Consume consume. I was wasn't what was the movie with Rowdy Roddy Piper? They live they live. Yeah, and one of the signs When you put on those glasses, you would see a sign that that would say consume. Yes. Yeah, and that's we live in I mean, that's a long time ago. That's the 80s. We live in a much more hostile Weaponized version of that today. Yes much more much more ferocious and it is It's there. It's consumerist Materialistic it's individualistic It's hyper competitive and these are they've they've infantilized us We now think like children and live like children. Yes, because it's all about trinkets It's all about beads and shiny things and we've lost we've lost ourselves And worse, we've lost each other We've lost the ability to connect with other human beings And then you have this rising tide of mental health issues and anxiety and depression people go well Why is this happening? And I'm like, what do you think we need each other? And if we're not only are we ignoring each other by being stuck in the phones and stuck in our own narcissistic story We're splitting from each other. Everything is a division. Everything is a tribe You know, you're in that group. I'm in this group. So um When you said you didn't like the the the name the manasphere one of the things that I want to make sure Happens because it's growing. It's developing. It's maturing and I think the 21 convention is a good example of a maturing open Source system that's it's philosophically very grounded Is that we don't feed into that false dichotomy? It's not about men versus women It's for men in a space for them to move forward to grow and develop and where we see a problem or a fight that needs to be Fought um, this is this is how we're doing it. So it's not men versus women It's infantilized consumer versus responsible adult So maybe we should rename it the Adultus sphere or something, you know, I like that. It's a little clumsier, but yeah, yeah Uh Here's a statement from your talk. We have never loathed ourselves more We have really gone against the grain of nature. Um, it is not Not in our nature, I believe, uh, though mass media would have us believe this mass culture would have us believe this To be narcissistic. It's not in our nature to be greedy It's not actually within human nature Um to be obsessed with material things in that in that way There is a flaw in human nature. It's always been there. It's not a modern effect. The Greeks were talking about it How will we deal with the flaws in human nature? And many a lot of Greek philosophy That we take for granted now the Judeo-Christian philosophy was rooted in Greek philosophy said Don't become obsessed with pleasures of the flesh. Don't become obsessed with materialism Yeah, I mean I'm not I'm not a downer aesthetic who's like, hey, don't drink and don't have fun but If that becomes a core value of life, what's life about just material things and the pleasure of the flesh you've you've lost And then you call that freedom. You're totally trapped. You're the worst prison you can be in You're a self-obsessed narcissistic infant Who you observe yourself in life acting in this way that's childish and pure isle and stupid Yes, we have that. It's the weaker part of our nature. It's within us But the higher parts of our nature are loving. They're giving their community focus. They We feel good like you see somebody who needs help and you help them and then the The serotonin in the endorphin system reward you you feel good for that. That's better than a facebook like That's better than getting extra followers on instagram. You saw a human in need and you helped them That's that's who we are. That's what we are. This is all falsehood Your body of work draws on so many different disciplines. I mean you're talking about greek philosophers In one breath and you're talking about history in the next breath and the latest cutting-edge technology and That's what makes your work so interesting. Thank you. Yeah Nobody is coming to save you that jumped out at me. I said I got to write that down Elaborate on that Um, I'm not I'm not the first person To say that it's an important element of our development therapeutically Um, I ran across it years ago and I was particularly focused on childhood trauma at that time And it was a piece of the puzzle in my own personal recovery So I was like, well It's not like I think anybody is coming to save me and I was like, well, hang on a second If there was a Freudian psychoanalyst in the room, what would they say? So if you've been abandoned in childhood It's not that you literally consciously think somebody is coming to save me But you end up with the the emotional scars and the echo of that desire. I hope someone's coming soon I hope everything's going to be okay because mommy or daddy or an authority figure come back and do something for me so it's A consciousness elevating tool to remind yourself Stop, you know, don't as like the the Nietzsche quote I gave Which was hope is in fact the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torment of man If you're sat around hoping You're not acting and action is the only resolution Now is the time not to be just sat there. Oh, well, let's hope everything works out. Give up hope It's not going to work out. Okay. The boss is already tipping off the edge of the cliff We see that in every area of society. We've got to do something. So stop hoping start acting Yeah, I've heard it said that you can think your way into depression or anxiety But you have to act your way out So you did a workshop I did How did that go? It it went well. Um, the guys enjoyed it. We had a good time. We covered magic Tarot cards the notion of free will religion economics. We covered a lot of ground. Wow. Yeah, that's great We even got into some guys were talking about martial arts and self-protection issues Which is some of my favorite subjects is around martial arts. Um, so yeah, it was good. We had a good time It's so personal too. I mean when you're up on stage and the bright lights are on you You know, you can see guys maybe in the first two rows, but you can't see anyone there But when you do a workshop you're six feet from 20 men 100% and it's it is for me It's it feels like martial arts training where when you're delivering a workshop That's like doing a cat. You know, we're exactly where you're gonna start where you're gonna end. It's pre-written I I wrote it for the workshop. It's like sparring. You're playing with people You know, somebody will say something and I'll I'll pretend I didn't hear them or I misinterpret what they're saying and then they'll go That's not what I meant. I know that's not what you meant. Yeah, I it keeps the energy alive Yeah, um, and it's it's that to me is uh is really really good fun and you can see What I like to see is um The lock in people's eyes where they ask me a question. I say something that they're not expecting and they kind of go Oh You could see them thinking and they're like, oh, I don't really know how to place that. Yeah And I'm in my head. I'm hoping that I've given them something that they'll still be wrestling with in like a week's time Or two. Yeah, rather than just give a pat answer. Yeah, I don't I don't really Think it's all that useful to go. Oh, here's the pat answer There was a guy a young lad I was chatting to in there was I want you to philosophize for yourself I want you to grow the muscle of Asking the question and debating with your friends and thinking it through with yourself and following something through to a logical conclusion Rather than just coming to me and asking for something because that again is back to toxic passivity. Yes I want you active engage with the subject material, you know Fight spar roll with it. Tell people they're wrong. You know, don't be disagreeable Be polite as you're doing it. Enjoy the process. This is how it was always done Historically people were just sitting debate and discuss without getting upset without calling each other names There was a boundary format for doing it. I think Socrates came up with, uh, you know The Socratic method was the best way of doing it. Yeah, and people would find pleasure in it again You can't really tax that Maybe you'd have a couple of cigarettes a couple of coffees or something and maybe one little cup of wine And you can go for three or four hours and it feels good But it makes you a better thinker Can't really have that we can't afford to have people being good thinkers and figuring things out for themselves because They might not do as they're told. Yeah What keeps men awake at night? What do you think generally speaking in all of your work with men workshops conferences What keeps if you could Sum it up I think the for men There is a desire for some kind of structure and When they don't have a strong Moral philosophy and confidence in their ability to resolve issues for themselves I think that creates both depression because they don't feel good about themselves. So low lying depression And an anxiety. Yeah, and I'm like and so They can be pushed And I think this is an ideological push into god if only I had the answers Everything would be okay, and I could sleep whereas I would rather say no forget the answers You want the strength and the skill to figure it out? And then you develop the confidence to go, you know what? I don't know what's going to happen Whatever happens everything's going to be okay. I'll figure it out. Whatever happens. I'll figure it out And when antony's talking about the necessity for a patriarchy And for fathers to be present I think that's what a good benign loving present father gives a human being is just a sense of Oh, it's going to be okay. You're okay kid. You can figure it out Whatever it is, you're going to figure it out when that is withdrawn and that doesn't happen There is this anxiety and this depression. So I think that's what keeps most men awake at night is the lack of confidence in their own ability to just handle problems Yeah, they have to have a A comfort level With not having all the answers Exactly that exactly that and that's where in my own Research and coaching people and helping people. I'm coming back again and again to philosophy That's what philosophy was for that's how We've protected ourselves always with our it's your ability to reason and to think and to process It's like we don't trust that anymore or we've lost interest in it Or perhaps we would rather just be toxically passive and let some mummy or daddy figure just give it to us Um But yeah, it's a good it feels good to be able to say well, what's the question? Let's lay it down here. I've done this the confidence say we've done this loads of times Whatever the question is somebody could bring it here now lay it between us You and I can talk 15 minutes and we'll have something. Yeah might not be perfect. Yeah, it's something and that that feels good. Yeah You're familiar with jordan peterson What is your take on? What I would call the jordan peterson phenomenon I would say the phenomenon and the the the stellar rise Is a response to toxic passivity Um because he offers something else he offers You know, he well he actually talks in terms openly of a moral philosophy. Um, and I think He's also encouraging people to have a philosophy of competition So there's an appeal in that and people say, oh, it's just young men online It isn't I've spoken to people in the real world. There's many many women Um, uh, who uh, you know, not they're not young They're not they're not university age college students who absolutely love him So I think somebody's come along and seen that there's a deficiency and gone. No, okay Here's actually something that that we can do. Um, so the jordan I understand the phenomena Of how popular he's become from that point of view and you know as a psychologist I think he's he's uh, he's hugely insightful But when he drifts into other topics, I'm like, I'm not sure you're qualified to talk about that Mr. Peters and not taking anything away from the guy. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely You are an absolutely important voice In this men's community movement You are so needed. Thank you and Watching you on stage As you're walking Back and forth on stage and I'm watching all the heads I'm sitting way in the back and I'm watching everyone Not taking their eyes off of you, right? You have their undivided attention Your voice is super important. Absolutely. Thank you very much. How can our watchers Find you how can they explore more of what you do? I think I think the best way Is to is to just go straight to youtube. Uh, there's a spartan life coach youtube channel There are other places where I am But I think in order for people to know whether they're gonna like my style the particular flavor that I come with And that would be the best way to go and it does like thousands of hours of content on the channel So they're more than welcome to go and have a look at that. It's been magnificent and it's great to get to know you Thank you very much. So cheers