 Hello and welcome to the leader's room. I'm delighted to introduce you today to Lynn McTaggart She's the author of many books including the field the intention experiment and the bond and she's here today to relate her ideas which come from science and spirit Back to the business world and into the world of leadership I guess the way I'd like to start this is To ask you a rather blunt question. Why is it you think Darwin was wrong? Darwin is on a sort of scientific continuum Science really writes the story that we live by you know lots of things do religion and philosophy But science is the main author in terms of our understanding of the world and and the human experience and The scientific story up until now has been one of Individuality thanks to the work of Isaac Newton, but also because of the work of Charles Darwin an idea of scarcity Darwin was very influenced by population explosion theories of the time and so he concluded that life must proceed through struggle and Because of the advent of mass printing his ideas swept the globe and they and they became a justifying principle for many things including industrialized capitalism and It is essentially a construct an idea But like all of science, you know We think of science as this ultimate truth and this static truth that gets written for all time but scientific discoveries are just a story and New chapters refine the chapters that have come before and all of the new evidence coming out in both biology, you know biology, but also the otherologies like anthropology, etc. and physics Demonstrate that nature didn't design us to compete nature designed us to connect and you see that in every way That's very interesting. Did you were there any hints in what Darwin has to say himself that perhaps he missed or he didn't emphasize? No later in his life He really came to the idea that cooperation was really the key to nature not competition But one of his good friends had come up with the idea of the term survival of the fittest He never actually coined that term and because Because he was a real he was a PR person at the time essentially That information and that idea just took fire and that became the kind of code word For the new model of capitalism and of course, you know, that's been propagated by The ideas of Adam Smith, you know, we do best for society by looking out for number one And that that whole idea of you know life being erased to the finish line There's not enough out there. So you better darn well get in there first has been Essentially the paradigm by which we live I'm getting stressed just listening to you Why do you say that it's more about cooperation and collaboration than it is around competition Well, if you look at a lot of the evidence for the human experience For instance, we need to belong, you know, we try to be here Yeah, individuality and individualism and you know in all of our popular culture There's always the guy in the movies with his fist up against the establishment You know the John Wayne type character, but actually that type of person is the perfect candidate for a heart attack People who live very individualistically and live, you know against Society and against the establishment tend to get heart attacks, you know half of all people who get heart attacks Have the usual risk factors that we know of for heart attacks like, you know High blood pressure or high cholesterol the rest are lonely. Yeah, and loneliness is one of the hardest things to bear in The human experience, you know, we and they find that with belonging if you belong to one group You join one group next year whether it's a book club or a bowling group or a church group You will have your chances of dying, you know, it's that profound our need to belong. I Took a class at the Mind Body Institute at Harvard many many years ago and the topic was stress But the topic could have been loneliness or could have been isolation because the evidence is so strong that when people Converse when they join a club when they connect to family friends community, right? They're their blood pressure goes down They're absolutely they're they're Outcomes absolutely improved People in the hospital Even when they're very stressed in their lives. There was a study of people who were in the lowest income level in in the US And who had lost their jobs and they weren't stressed so long as they had two things a strong spiritual connection and a strong but more importantly a strong spiritual community You know community is the best drug we've got So let's go to this notion of spiritualism then this whole notion because that's where a lot of your work has taken you Right, so you've looked at Amazing experience and I'd love it if you would perhaps describe a couple of the ones that you like the best that show You know, how much we influence each other or how much even you know, molecules influence each other how much there is a You know a common field that has a communication Web throughout it that allows us to have connectivity and support and influence on each other Well, let's just look at the whole idea of thing this, you know, because that's really what we think we think that We are isolated in self-contained. I end with the hair on my skin at which point the rest of the universe begins But when you look at ours us and the world subatomically what you see is that you know Subatomic particles aren't little discreet billiard bowls as we learn in physics they're actually vibrating packets of energy sending energy back and forth in a constant trade and in that trade a giant field gets created because each subatomic trade creates a virtual particle that exists for just less than the blink of an eye and That's not very much energy But when you add up all the virtual particles getting created by all the subatomic trades in the world come up with this Just unfathomable supercharged backdrop backdrop and that field is Something we're part of even Einstein said the field is the only reality and there's a big big Implication of being part of a giant energy field of subatomic waves Which is that we're all connected on that basic level and it Describes a very neat mechanism By which we can understand things like one person affecting someone else just through thought alone or ESP all of those ideas those supernormal ideas that you know, we've never had an explanation for In terms of not to interrupt you but before we get even to that level. Can you just describe the? This notion of action at a distance which to me is a really you know sort of foundational building block Understanding on a scientific basis that may get us to yeah interconnection of people. Okay, well, you know ordinary science believes in a very mechanistic universe and in terms of Force they think that influence has to happen through Something physical you have to do something physical to something you have to drop it burn it freeze it or give it a good Swift kick, you know, you have to do something physical to something But the new science is demonstrating that first of all we are energy Secondly, we're beaming out energy in the form of a tiny dribble of light called biophoton emissions All living things are sending out this light and all other link things are sending the light back Synchronicity Fritz pop came up with biophoton emissions So we know that's going on and when scientists like dr. Konstantin Karatkov and a number of other scientists have actually measured this light When healers are so-called running energy when they're sending healing The light changes something about it changes other aspects of energy change They've measured increases in electrical energy increases in magnetic energy Somehow there is some sort of energetic Thing that goes on that a transfer a sense essentially but there's been a lot of Study huge amounts of study on the effects of thoughts on other things people trying to influence something else from single-cell organisms to machines to full-fledged human beings and There's been thousands of these studies and they've demonstrated electronic anomalies research. Yes have a stock or any of these places Absolutely many many prestigious centers where they've looked at the ability of a thought to affect something else And they found essentially that a thought is a thing But also a thought that it is a thing that affects other things. So it's so if we are Energy fields fields of various sorts of energy, whatever they may be This thought is not a different thing from a cheek cell necessarily I mean, you know what you're saying. It's it's sort of as alive and as real. Yeah, it's another. It's another energy It's another thing this yeah, well, it's another energy. Yeah, it's another energy source Essentially and that you know a thought is an actual something with the capacity to change physical matter, right? And we know that in terms of my favorite experiment there were two of them one of them was in a dream laboratory in New York and what they used to do was put people hire, you know hook them up to certain equipment and put them in one room and Have them sleep and in the other room. They would put somebody who would randomly pick a bunch of Pictures and they were usually images. They were usually images of paintings certain famous paintings And they were then told to look at that image and transmit it to the sleeping person in the other room And they found an enormous number. It was something like two-thirds of their studies The person in one room would be able to transmit that image to someone else and they would incorporate it into their dream for instance One guy was looking at an image of it was an image of the Mexican Revolution And so it had lots of people, you know going savers and yeah And just kind of like a almost like a big big, you know mass movement and the next day They're under under a very cloudy Stormy sky and the next day the person woke up and said it was really weird. It was almost like a big Hollywood movie I saw all these people sort of going along almost in with revolutionary fervor and there was dark clouds in the background And he proceeded to describe the entire scene. It was really quite amazing. That's one incredible experiment another one I love is An experiment that the Cleveland Clinic carried out Looking at whether or not there's a difference between going to the gym and thinking about going to the gym That's a struggle I face every day Don't we all and What they did was they took two groups of people and one group were sent to the gym to work on their biceps And the other group were to sit in their arm chairs and think about going to the gym and working on their biceps And the people who went to the gym increased their biceps size eventually by 30% But the people who just thought about going to the gym also increased their biceps size by 15% So it just demonstrates that you know our brain is quite a marvel in lots of ways But it's also just a little bit dumb because it doesn't can't really distinguish between an action and a thought Well, maybe there is no difference between an action and a thought. Maybe that's what it's telling us This is it this idea of dreams The idea that these thoughts were being sent to someone who is asleep. Is there anything about this dream state? That would that influence that choice of experiment I mean, is there is there a reason why they had people sending ideas to someone who's asleep as opposed to someone who's awake? Well, there were a lot of studies were done in altered states of consciousness a thing called the Gansfeld which was An idea a number of researchers came up with around the 70s where you would block out a lot of exterior extraction, so they would have somebody putting, you know, sort of some sort of mask or cover over their eyes and also Wear headphones listening to white noise, you know, just Sort of static so that they couldn't hear what was going on They couldn't see what was going on and so that forced them to focus inwardly So there have been lots of studies like that and studies in meditative states and they feel that those are more conducive to Receiving this information. Yeah, are there in your Research or the research that you've seen are there some people who are more able to Send or receive these kinds these thoughts and messages and some people who have a harder time Well, yes and no Yes, certain people are more gifted than others naturally gifted, but This is an ability that's present in all of us and it just needs to be cultivated And I discovered that just in workshops of mine where I get people who are complete novices To send and receive information to each other and they do it and usually two-thirds of the room get it right That's amazing. So let's pull this discussion then to leadership. It seems pretty obvious I mean, it seems very apparent the evidence is there That it is absolutely possible to influence each other without without speaking without seeing each other with Sleeper awake. How does this play out in terms of leadership? I know that you give a lot of workshops I'm sure you've got business people going to them. What are the kinds of things that you've been hearing? well, first of all I think people are recognizing that We in the West have a real busted flush of a model You know, it's a model that doesn't work anymore The whole idea that the business model the business model the general financial model and the general life model Yeah, we do best for society by looking after number one I mean one of the most compelling statistics is looking at Fairness models, you know epidemiological studies of fairness and they find When they've looked over 15 Countries in the West that the more unfair the more there's a huge disparity between rich and poor The more of unfair any society the worst off it is in terms of all the major social indicators You know crime and violence mental health Health education teenage pregnancy, you know, all of this is indicators of dysfunction Yeah, and America for instance, which has the biggest disparity of all in terms of of Big sort of unfairness indicators also has the worst worst Social indicators it is of the 15 countries in terms of worse Health education crime. It's on the bottom absolutely on the bottom. So I think we you know, it's pretty evident that this Selfishness model this we look out for number one model Is just not working. It's collapsing on itself. This is the end state of that You know the end point of selfishness is the breakdown of every societal structure. So it's really clear We need a new model now. How do we do that? I? Think we create a new paradigm and one of the things I like is I very much like the economist Stroke mathematician John Nash's Discovery called the Nash equilibrium, you know, which he worked out mathematically that Adam Smith was wrong that Adam Smith You know was incomplete the whole idea that we do best for society by looking after number one was wrong He said no the best response individual response is looking out What's best for you and the group and he came at the same time? He came up with a group theory idea and wrote the Nash equilibrium to demonstrate that that is that mathematical model is The is the best response is the best, you know and works out the best mathematically and Works the best in real life too and it ended up earning him the Nobel Prize now I think this is highly overlooked in terms of a business model, but I think it's a brilliant business model because it is basically saying we move beyond the idea of just the short-term gain idea of looking out for me and Me can also be just the organization and look at it larger way look at it in terms of the whole Stakeholder population of that business, which is everybody who's affected by hurt or helped by what you do You know and that can be the people that are Surround the area where you get your raw materials and to those people who are Who are your consumers? Yeah, and there's no place for business anymore in areas where the Final product or any aspect of that chain is harming people don't you think it has a lot to do as time frame? I mean if if you're only thinking about the quarter or the half or even the year and trying to maximize within that Versus trying to maximize within the lifetime of your children in terms of in terms of you know What you think goodness is yes, and I think it's you know I think it is it is having that longer term vision because after all you know We have we in the West in particular have messed up so much for our children and they're now you know the you know the Undeserving beneficiaries of this model now But also it's not only the long game in terms of just being a good organization It also makes for good business and that culture that Unified culture has a real important point inside an important place inside that business too For instance the science demonstrates that when you work together for common goals Everybody's brain waves start operating in synchrony and also they found with a study of Oxford rowers That when people row together they have a higher pain threshold than when they row alone even Athletes when they use self-talk. That's about the whole group rather than themselves so instead of Instead of I win I I'll do my best. I'll win this game. They talk about we'll win this game we'll do our best and that ends up Improving they've shown in studies that improves not only the group's performance, but individual for performance too So even just thinking we makes I do better so what they found in a number of studies is When businesses have adopted that kind of mentality it actually improves their business for instance Microsoft Maintain although it started out life with a kind of you know a freebie model They also created a lot of internal competition and they created these small silos of competition where they would You know they would be rewarded if they beat the rest of the silos bake off a bake off cook off kind of idea Exactly now that became created such a fear-based model that it actually inhibited innovation Compared to the result. Yeah, exactly compared to Google where the whole team was always rewarded for Individual effort to that didn't stifle individual Innovation it created such a generous model that was not fear-based where people were allowed to blue sky and we're unafraid to come forward with ideas and Everybody was egged on by everybody else because the whole team benefited from it that that stimulated in innovation That's right. So suppose you're a leader who gets it, you know you Understand that it's much better to have a collaborative environment than a strictly competitive environment But you're surrounded by people who've grown up in the old paradigm, right? And maybe you're not even necessarily being that valued because you're not a part of that dominant paradigm, right? You're not that one that who's gonna go out there and you know kill the competition or kill their colleagues What can you do if you're that person who realizes that you're trying to make a change? Okay, there's a couple of things that are really important to understand here one We're hugely infectious, you know people are hugely infectious And you know, we're even if we were to look at this interview later You'd probably see that you are nodding and blinking in time to my voice when I'm speaking we're that infectious and studies of business people have demonstrated and businesses have demonstrated that When somebody is strongly positive in a situation it can actually positively affect the moods of everyone around them and influence better decision-making and We also know we're not only infectious and the reverse is also true the reverse is also yes But the other interesting thing is in a culture where turn-taking has fallen apart and where you know You don't have this kind of fairness and it's maybe dog eat dog All it takes they've also demonstrated through game theory that all it takes are one or two people wedded to fairness and reciprocity to turn that whole game around now I give you a wonderful little example of the power of just a tiny Act to completely transform a culture There's a woman called Marie who had a typical dog eat dog office and She really hated the culture, but she said well, what can I do? I'm not a leader here So she came up with the idea that maybe every day She'd leave the change in the coke machine when she went to get her coke And she'd leave a little sign that said your coke has been paid for keep the spirit alive and pay it forward So this of course completely freaked out all of her Co-workers because they they started creating a spy network to find out who the secret Santa was So Marie then starts upping her game She moves to another floor and she starts leaving donuts with the same sign You know these have been left for you keep the spirit alive pay it forward so that became the conversation in the lunch room and in the den around the dinner table for weeks and Ultimately it became the mirror that was held up to that office to for it to see and it completely Transformed that they were not being that generous exactly Everyday dealings and it was the thing it was the little act that completely transformed the culture in that office So sometimes it's that simple. Yeah. Yeah, but it also requires on a leader's part resolve To be that change agent you have to be the change agent and you have to create and Persisting create that new culture that culture for instance of generosity. I love it I've also heard you speak of intention circles That's another method that can be used right another technique Well, I've been playing around with intention as a group effort for about six years now I was really intrigued by studies showing that Lots of people having the same thought at the same time seem to affect random equipment They've done a lot of experiments in Princeton and elsewhere Princeton University where they've used these random machines called random event generators which are like modern-day tosses of the coin and Normally, they have a random output of heads or tails each 50% of the time but they found if they have lots of them running all the time and there are moments of Collective horror for instance the Twin Towers disaster You know that attack or the death of Princess Diana and things like that the machines veer off their random course as though There is some collective there is an effect on them by the collective mind So that inspired me and I wondered so what happens if lots of people actually have an intention to change something? Well, we have an effect And I've been doing large-scale intention experiments since then where I asked my audience over the internet My readers to come on every so often and send an intention to affect a target in a laboratory So I've done that. I've done 25 of them and we've had Positive effects in 22 of them. I mean, they've been quite extraordinary but I've also been playing around with small group intention and Because I was very interested to see that with these large groups I would pull them afterward the the people who are participants and their lives had really changed by being part of this Collective effort they kept talking about a palpable feeling of oneness They kept saying things like I'm I'm you know, I'm nicer to everyone now But most particularly they found close they found themselves The biggest change was they found themselves closer to strangers and I thought this is really interesting So what happens if we not just feeling a oneness with this group that they're assigned to you But it's actually opened them up to a oneness with with a sort of a larger Yeah, this feeling of being part of something bigger like this and actually participating in this experience Seem to you know open their hearts a lot more basically and make them feel a sense of oneness with other people So I thought okay, let's try small experiments and I started this in workshops largely because it's hard to Show somebody intention over a weekend. You know, you can't intend a new job over the weekend So I thought okay really good. Yeah, I know you're really lucky. I'll come forward in a day So I thought well, let's get together people eight or twelve people And just have them all together Send an intention to somebody in the group with some sort of healing challenge, you know health challenge So we started doing that and I low and behold. I mean these incredible Responses happened where so for example people will well A person with you know, I've had a lot of people with arthritis who are pain-free after the experience Woman who had an opacity in one eye where she was you know, she had very little vision in that eye said it was 80% restored. I mean it was just Mind-boggling and is mind-boggling and it just seems to keep going and I mean I've never professed to be a healer or understand anything about Yeah, actually practicing healing But I was noticing Extraordinary effects in these groups not only among the receivers, but the rescinders too and that was even more interesting Because I thought wow, you know giving is as good as getting here because if they had a health challenge They would feel less pain or less something or be more mobile or whatever So I first of all I thought I'd found something pretty amazing Until my husband who reads it was reading about the ancient Aseans Found that they used to do these healing intention circles too You know even Jesus used to do these healing intention circles So it we you know, we just stumbled on some sort of ancient practice But what seems to be the case? I used to think it was the power of intention, but I think it's the power of connection Because people talk about Wow, I never felt so supported because these are usually invariably a group of strangers and yet they come together in this experience and Remember brainwaves in a common goal like this start operating in synchrony And there's been some other evidence that other parts of the body start operating in synchrony with intention too So you probably have this one wonderful little super organism that gets that gets created So there's enormous potential here focused concentrated deliberate effort. Yes, and there is connection That wonderful connection between people Who are doing something selfless together for a higher goal? It's called a superordinate goal and it's been demonstrated That it's such a powerful way of making people come together and over overcome their differences So this technique I think is a brilliant technique for business because first of all it makes everybody closer and Secondly, you don't have to just focus on you know a person's health. You can focus on the health of the business Yeah, you can focus on next year's profits. You can focus on doing good in the world You know, you can do all of those things with these little intention groups Yeah, it's very interesting because in my work because I've been doing this leadership development stuff for 20 years plus One of the things that I've observed when I've worked with an or my team has worked with an organization over time is that when we introduce say we're introducing a new idea like Giving more constructive feedback and some things simple like that And I'm thinking of an actual experience that I had with a huge telecommunications client And of course we didn't go out to the entire organization at once we did, you know, you know Every couple of weeks we do one with this group and that group and the other group really a tiny percentage of the overall 60,000 person well division But what we discovered is that even if the people that we were dealing with in a new workshop Had nothing to do with the people in an old workshop. They somehow learned faster and they somehow almost Had the idea in a sense and this is long before I read any of your any of your work But it was it was an observable phenomenon that the organization actually seemed to be learning as as in as members of it learned and I and I've seen this over and over again that somehow or other it's very strange But organizations learn faster as time goes on and I've always wondered if maybe there's something around this this sort of collective intelligence is even Reaching out beyond its own the circle that we've created if you know, I mean does that make sense to you sure? I mean the scientist Rupert and Sheldrake the British biologist has long maintained. There are morphic fields. So a nested hierarchy of fields that Allow us that these fields Generally generationally allow us to learn faster and maintain our information and that could work in a corporate Manor to and of course the epigenetics would say they would work across generations as well. Yeah, absolutely So this is a very not just a multiplicative. It's very multiplicative It's it's exponential actually the effect that you can have if you get the right thing rolling Yes, it's also exponential what can happen if they get the wrong thing rolling when you look at how societies can go completely wrong very quickly Absolutely, the poster child for that would be, you know, Nazi Germany or something like that But I guess you could argue the United States too. I mean, how does it how does it end up in this place? Yeah, it ends up where it's where it's not conforming to its own ideals No, yeah, and it's come to this divisive polarized and selfish place Because it honored in a sense it bought into the wrong cultural paradigm, right, right? Which is completely derogative competitive individualism. Yeah, exactly exactly very good Are there any questions I haven't asked you No, really, I guess some of the ways to address Reestablishing the bond and I've always I've called it a bond because From our subatomic particles to our bodies in their relationship with their environment to the way we relate to each other and and even our societies as a whole in our Relationship in a in also with things like the Sun. I mean, we're so interconnected There's it's so there's a connection so profound an integral that it's impossible to say where one thing ends and another thing begins hence the bond and The problem is our bond now is broken because you know, we are marching toward greater and greater atomization, you know in the way that we conduct our lives in separation and Defining with more and more boundaries. What's not us and here's we've got a smaller and smaller ring fence around the tiny group that's us and a bigger and bigger barricade against the Giant ever-increasing group that is not us or them and you know We can continue going down that road or we can embrace a completely new model And I think what's really important here is to start looking at what we have to do consciously and what a leader has to do because you know Back when it was turning 2012 there were a lot of ideas in the new conscious community that this is going to be just in a Natural evolution that you'd just be able to sit back and you get a little fairy dust And you know, you'd walk through this new portal and everything would be changed But it's not going to happen that way. It's going to happen With a lot of conscious change like Malaysia coming out of its banking crisis in the 90s Where there were a lot of conscious decisions to completely change what they were doing and by the same token I think leaders have to really change this paradigm. I Would just suggest four things they maybe five one is to start seeing and I mentioned all of these with a lot of Exercises in my book the bond, but the first thing is to see more holistically Because we're very good at only looking for individual things and individual solutions that are basically What's in it for us? Yeah, or what's in it for me or maybe what's in it for my family? Yeah Yeah, our very little group. Yeah, our little not the big picture to we have to learn a new way of relating to people That is much more intimate and much more about connection and not Dominating yeah three we have to learn to move to a larger version of we and Work together for common goals in that as I say use these kind of superordinate goals Working together for common goals together as a whole as a group is a powerful powerful mechanism to bring people together And for we have to accept responsibility to be the change agent It's no good waiting for the big people in charge to do it because you know as we've seen in America They don't even know how to talk to each other across the aisle in Congress Well, I actually wanted to ask you unless I'm cutting you off. Was there a fifth one? No, no, and it just as part of learning to relate to each other and use groups is use the power of intention the power of the mind and the power of Those hidden connections and that extra sensory information were constantly sending out to make change because that is a powerful energy Yes, very much so I'm wondering have you seen any difference in generation? because one of the reasons why I think we can't wait for the The senior level people to get the idea before the junior levels because perhaps the junior level actually have a clear sense of The bond then some older people I asked this because we've actually been doing research here in Asia And one of the questions we ask people is you know where what's your source of energy? You know what makes you excited? What makes you want to do your job and sometimes in certain places we hear more from from the older generation we hear more of I'm doing my duty or Basically, you know, I want to have money or position and younger people In some parts of Asia are more likely to say I want to fulfill my values You know, I want to act on my on my passions and interests And so I'm wondering if you've seen any evidence of that in the work that you've been doing that there is a any sort of generational shift around tapping into one's own inner sources And You know more of an egalitarian. Yes, I'm seeing some Not seeing as much as I'd like in the West I'm seeing a lot of People though prepared to Across all the generations wanting to do whatever they can to make this shift in all of society I mean, I just put this on Facebook a few weeks ago. I just said So, okay, you say you want a revolution Anybody want to step up to the plate? Let's see what your CV is what would you be willing to donate what in terms of time and I had hundreds and hundreds of responses and Them saying people fundraisers and web designers and people saying I'm in I just want to do something Yeah, I just want to do so what can I what can I do? And I think people are so fed up with the way everything is going now and so fed up with With the life as we've created it, you know, so stressful so hard-working So so anti-community because you don't have the time anti-family because you don't have the time And just realize that this is the end of days with that mindset and they want to do whatever they can to create a new one So what's happening? Well, we're just starting a group. I mean, we we wanted to start it starting off with health To set medicine free because we see there's a dominance of the pharmaceutical industry on medicine now That is so pervasive. It's been it's being even compared by the people at in the heads of medicine like editors of medical journals Richard Smith former editor of the British Medical Journal and Peter Goche who is the Head of Scandinavian cocaine collaboration. They're among the you know They're the top people who do medical research evaluate medical research calling the pharmaceutical industry akin to the Mafia, you know they're saying that whole Very destructive Type of business practice is destroying medicine now. It's destroying health so we want to try to set medicine free from the pharmaceutical industry and Also encourage an open system of medicine So that's one thing that we're looking to do but I want to I think the real solution is Small group bottom-up type of actions from within corporations and within communities to be local local Reconnective types of groups where you're re establishing revitalizing community Okay, thank you Lynn. Thank you very much. Thank you. That's Lynn McTaggart visit her website. Would you give us your website address? Yeah, WWW dot Lynn McTaggart com. Okay, and look into the intention experiment and Thank you so much. That's it for today from the leaders room. It's a wrap