 Welcome once again to the series that we are running on the Central Vista and also I really thankful to Vivan Sundram Sir who's joined us to discuss on the issue of Central Vista and as most of us know Vivan is an artist and someone who's been there for the last five to I'm more than five decades and who works into that interdisciplinary art, social and architecture and I think that's so important to have Vivan with us and just to go into retrospective I think to mention that Vivan was also the Kiranadha Museum of Art and Haude Constant Munich. Yes please correct me for the pronunciation and of course Vivan was the petitioner in the Central Vista case that went to the Supreme Court and which gave two to one verdict. So multi-media artist and Vivan is also associated with one of the pioneer organizations to actually lead this movement on the redevelopment of the Central Vista impact against the redevelopment of Central Vista. So thank you Vivan. Thank you, nice to talk to you. Yeah joining us. Everyone we've done actually a series of episodes on Central Vista right from. I've seen quite a number of them. Some people I only know like Mother of Anand Murthy. So we've spoken about history, we've spoken about the architecture, we've spoken about many many issues. Today what concerns actually I mean the impression that has actually passed on to the people is that look what is the problem in case the government constructs a new parliament building but now we are realizing it's not just the new parliament building and even that if that has to be constructed I mean one can't imagine to be doing so in a period when we are stuck with the pandemic when thousands and thousands of people are dying for want of oxygen, for want of basic medical health facilities. Well keeping that apart I think what is also now unraveling or what is actually unfolding is you know the demolition of the IG, the Indira Gandhi National Centre for Arts, the museum, I mean all that was stored in our heritage and many are actually pointing out that this could also be you know to get rid of whatever heritage that we have at least when you get rid of the museum I mean you know so a new generation that gets developed. So it's part of that ideological and historical task. How do you look at this entire process that is taking place? Yeah well you know you said a lot in a nutshell and many people know about it and these are complex and difficult times and one has been partisan as you have already stated and that how do we pitch when I say we that as I said my association with Lokpat and that as an artist how does one you know work in that kind of quite terrifying space. I mean there is there used to be an age of anxiety now this is the age of fear and the fear is coming through multiple of different routes. There is the fear of course from the biological aspect of of COVID-19 but there is the fear of of even the state and many many people hundreds have experienced that and that one has to then bring together democratic forces which I believe still are alive and I don't have to quote the instances where they are able to speak out but to come back to the central vista it is an extraordinary project I mean of a scale no doubt which nobody in contemporary India has seen and so in a sense whatever the wishes of the of the prime minister the leader who wants some stamp to be put on there is the company HCP which is you know executing this project I won't go into that but just to say that there is it's all you know in people's image it's a top-angle view in fact of of a model because we have no information even about the parliament where it's being dug deep down for lower levels but even that is a model so this aspect of hiding of secrecy one really wonders what what is the reason because the company the chief architect is a very sophisticated well-educated person and what should he be afraid of he has nothing to be afraid of to put all this out in the public domain and there is an increasing voice of this public domain and I'm partying with that so you said this is a kind of shift from the age of anxiety which I find is quite good because you know then you bring in that creativity amongst the people but the age of where you demolish the where you demolish the creativity okay so and what kind of a society so how do you I mean so these angularities that we're trying to discuss and build how do you actually correlated to the to the entire process of redevelopment of central wisdom there's something very important that you said from the age of anxiety to the age of that was connected very much with the kind of existential aspect to it and as Picasso said Cezanne expressed one of the first this age of anxiety and made one of the greatest examples of modern art so that is part of you know 20th century history but we are very much into the 21st century and that the forces that are there and now globally as well that are coming together and that it's unfortunate that when there was democratic aspirations there's a great birth or resurgence I don't say resurgence but a growing social media presence but social media you know occupies a huge space but there's a much larger space outside as we know there are the people who are not connected and how do those people in some way get involved and how are the creative people the thinkers the intellectuals the historians the economists you know how are they able to speak their voice to then say how did this happen how is it happening in front of our eyes I mean just digging up the central vista for some toilets which is a euphemism I think there are other reasons for it understandably because if you're building so many large blocks of bureaucratic people to live in sorry to work in then obviously you need a lot of underground sewage so we have to see that and all the other aspects of it but to come to the ground above I mean again as I said we there's nothing or so little put in the public as a general impression and I'm now being as a speaking as an artist not as an architect that the buildings strangely have a way of not looking out but looking in and that all these spaces are in a kind of I mean they're not exactly square they have a looking into a square but there is intentionally not to look out on to Rajpath your look you've got your backs to it from whatever I've seen there no what does that mean what what does that mean well I think that it is well I think I mean I you know artists are a bit free in that use of words but I think that it is some wish to to kind of look in words not to be open to the public and this has been commented upon a lot I mean all the new technologies of TOD which I just learned from Martin and what that means that these sophisticated interior passages from the metro to that and it'll all travel underground nobody will be seen you know all these huge number of buildings all the offices will then move in this subterranean way move through lifts go into their place and they'll all you know be there working and then they will leave I mean what happens when they leave those that have cars or who don't use metro so I think that there is something in the design of efficiency certainly or wanting to get to your place as quickly as possible criticism that there was never enough parking space so unless you had a driver you had to keep looking so things like that certainly a certain aspect of efficiency and newness is is necessary that's that makes the question that why does every single ministry have to be on two sides of the Rajput and we know and and on one from the the the main Vijaychok on one side is the prime minister's residence and on the other side will come the new parliament and then where is the democratic space to go in and move into that space so many architects so many people have said that although technically HCP might say that we are not occupying this public space at all we have not taken a square inch into that it will be available for the Janta but that's begging the question because if on both sides you have these you know huge buildings and they are like in fortress like position and every snipers snipers of the top as you you got the word for me I don't believe and so far there's no there's no helipad on any of them but that that could also be so I think that this you know is going to create fear in people that what space are we entering into and what's going on behind I mean there's some trees up to a level but they are going up six stories and and almost supposed to be higher than the India gate or at least parliament was and then that's been you know brought down so this assertion of whether it is of numbers that are needed or an image and images are very important you know in this particular direction that the state of the leader wants to move in and the architect you know is intelligent and he knows you know how to supply that kind of form and there's not been enough discussion because architects understandably say we don't have enough data so how can we make comments you as an artist can use some expressive words but that you know constitutes not the full of the real picture so we will have to be continuously in waiting you know till that moment comes then I'll come later on to the cultural hub. Okay now I think we just switch over to our you know the main proposition that we had laid about the the National Archives the museum and the in the National Center for and I'm told that the museum will be coming up in the north and south blocks and of course the parliament will also become one of the largest museums of our heritage but I mean there's a fear that and as you said this age of fear and there's and lots of writings we are we are looking at that are pointing out you know to the to the damage that it can do to the syncretic culture that we've had you know we've had different we've had the we've had the Buddha period we have different forms actually of of cultural diversity that we have witnessed in India and I think that is what India is all about the the massive diversity so I mean I mean how how genuine how how valid is this criticism of for you know playing with the with the with the heritage and the museum and the archives yeah because I guess I'm not about but I think they're very important yeah no well that's a tough question to answer playing you know with this historical material and data or misusing it I think that is not a question that anybody can answer because answered back where is the proof I mean without anything happening how are you assuming that this will take take place so I think that we have to to keep you know aside but the main anxiety and in fact it's surprisingly that it has come up very late in the last few weeks or a month or two months that both these buildings you know were named to be demolished means raised to the ground and the collections of course the archive has incredible data and national archive was not supposed to not be because it's grade one building but even there was a slip there I believe important architect pointed it out and that so that's not good but everybody has said that the annex actually now has the major amount of the data and that little strip you know is to be part of this office complex so that has you know kind of some alarm bells all over the world because you know the Indian archive as well as the museum has you know incredible amount and range of of work into running into lax and to and as number which I said with a remarkable exhibition in the national museum about six seven years ago said that the other we are not so efficient at our at our data collecting and our data sorting and presenting so there are many gaps in it and then we are anxious you know that will these be you know known that what went and what didn't go all that so that's a big big anxiety that how can you know it just slip under the carpet under the table passed on to somebody else you know there are I've heard that many of the senior curators have retired one recently died so there's very little stuff to oversee this work and and and I believe it is still not started they're planning an exhibition of the central Asian art so I think that that you know the answer to that nobody has and it hasn't come forward by the architectural firm okay so everyone I think the moving on to the final question and it pertains to you know art is such an important form of manifestation but everyone doesn't understand that and unfortunately the kind of movement that I mean I'm saying unfortunately for the simple reason that you know the the the opposition or the counter to to the to this entire process of redevelopment has come from the artists from the architects it has not gone to the public domain after all it is the people I mean I mean this all this belongs to the people the government is just a custodian I mean so I mean what do you think should be and we've seen what the courts how the courts have also behaved so and it's it's a common heritage it's it's not that you know it's a heritage of A, B or C so what do you think I mean needs to be done or of course we are finding voices but those voices may be very temporary I mean once the pandemic is over they may just mellow down because you know one of the most diverse voices are coming that look when there's a pandemic but even if when there's not a pandemic why is still we should have at the Central History Development Project I mean what do you think should be the way forward? Yeah that's you know nobody can really answer that question and let you say low pass if you see the amount of writings they have got they've been very exceptionally well tabulated when Arayan Murthy was looking after communication in in the digital languages so as much outreach was possible by a group of architects who you know put their more money into the kitty to run it and of course certainly more efforts can be made you know you go to change or etc but I would like to come back to the question about to counter with the proposition that why demolish that there is particularly a senior architect like E. G. Krishna Menon who believes that conservation but not just conservation but retroactive dynamic transformation of the museum all over the world takes place and first I was told that three fourths was built of the museum but just now a mother said no it's not three fourths it's half and I just happened to have googled last night because I said how big is this area and with my little ruler I mentioned that the length on Janpath is 150 meters long and on the side it is sorry 300 meters long site is 175 and at the half of it the other half now the temporary archaeological survey of India which was there you just in the photograph you'll find bricks on the ground so that other half is available for a new extension of the building so apart from the old building you know being rationalized the space you have a whole new building and I think this is a very exciting moment that this is what the cultural hub that a contemporary interpretation of it we hope it will be well done and that they will be all you know scrutinized it could be if the group architects feel that why not it be international or national that's not the main thing is I'm a strong believer that this site you know with having a sense of history where if you're 70 years old or you went to that place you have huge memory children have been there and it's been ongoing to shift it somewhere else you know just make sense and it is possible and it is not a new unfair demand I mean the state can build a large amount but in this what was called the cultural hub by Latvians and Baker they had the archive which could not be broken and then post-independence the national museum was built by Diloy Likert who was built the national the sorry the supreme court at other major buildings and and I think that the building itself you know has an impressive quality of gravitas a weight and and it can be you know made into a kind of very contemporary dynamic space and one director when he was there was there I did a report he just transformed the museum you know he opened it out and there were shops and cafes and all so even in the old building and if money can be brought in and I'm now here that there's a pressure put on the government that you stop all NGOs to get money from abroad and I think that that should be challenged because if supposing people feel strongly that this should survive and that there is you know support for it it could come from across the world that yes we want you know an extension it requires money the state can you know public-private partnership and I maybe I'm being romantic but I think that could make a tremendous you know extension and you would have really all the space that you want you know for this museum so I'll end on that thank you Ivan and just to I mean when you were mentioning agk and especially restoration of the building I mean why do we forget we did it with gated theater in Simlano and with the town hall I mean the gated theater that was burned I mean we restored it to the to its to its old glory and I know that building from childhood so so that's that's why that's why ever since we have that common thread I thought I must point out yeah thank you Ivan I think thank thank you so much I think yeah but I don't think that I should be that cynical but at the same time that the age of fear that you pointed out and some of our panelists who actually raised this question that actually there is a deliberate attempt maybe we are not able to substantiate it now but you know we can smell that in the air we can smell that in the political environment and of course now it is reaching to the art and thank you so much Ivan for joining with us and all the best for all of us who are part and parcel of this movement for actually I won't say conserving but actually reclaiming our right in that is the spirit of democracy and as I said the large part of this country you know is there and it has to be mobilized in different ways and it has happened but of course culture takes a backseat you know by almost all political parties so this particular space these two the archive and the and the extension we all have to fight and make it you know get national and global support absolutely so thank you thank you okay thank you thank you so much yeah