 We go full speed and force ahead and launch into another fascinating afternoon discussion led by my dear friend John Palfrey. The next hour is about bringing it back together what we discussed this morning. Try really to understand, is there come ground among the three perspective, three tracks we discussed this morning and Catarina helpfully reminded us of course that there is significant overlap among the three perspectives. So this session tries to bring these three perspectives back together to identify key factors and also get as concrete as possible and identify intervention points. And I'm really grateful that you're moderating this session. It's no easy task and you're the best. No, that's not true. Thanks. Over to you, John. Bruce, thank you so much and thank you everyone for the great food for thought we've had so far. So I think you know this, but the design of the program over these three days features two moments where we consolidate our gains. One is sort of a top down consolidation of gains, which is this one. And then a second since the synthesis session, which is a little bit more the bottom up out of the cluster sessions. What have we been discussing in a more distributed fashion? And we've structured it along two lines, at least for this sort of midpoint check-in. One on the left here are key factors for success in OER and then on the right, somewhat more detailed potential intervention points, things that people are excited about doing, moving forward to accomplish a vision that I think we're all still trying to parse out. The wonderful Berkman staff and thank you for this have been listening through the session so far and have started to parse things into these categories. But what we're about to do is a total unconference session. We will just be discussing as a group where we think we should populate field 7 to N on the left-hand side and field 16 and down, or you can edit the ones if you feel like you've been misheard here on the right. But I thought just briefly before going to these and allowing you in the background to take a look at what we've got on the Google Doc, I suspect we could even share with you the link somehow to the Google Doc and you could write directly into it. I don't know, do we want to create you guys a tiny URL or something that we could, Berkman crew? Could we create a tiny URL slash something and then share it? Yeah. So if other people want to use those computers that you have here, I'll let you look at these for a moment. I want to just describe two projects that relate to the Harvard Law School and might situate this session in the actual building that we're in right now. Story number one had to do with the renovation of some old classrooms on this campus. And this is a building just, we walked by it on the way to the dinner last night in Lope House. It's the very long grand building called Langdale Hall, which has the big library and it has classrooms situated on either end. And in the late 1990s, during the dot-com boom, I was a student at the time, several others in the room were students, but I was not on the faculty. But the faculty had a discussion and decided to renovate the big classrooms on either end. And the idea was to wire them and to make them much more comfortable. So in the old Harvard Law School tradition, they had very hard plastic chairs. They were quite uncomfortable and you couldn't even swivel them and they had a stick to the bottom. So you kind of had to sit there and be grilled, socratic style. And that worked with the teaching mode that we had. But in front of all the students, more comfortable chairs were created, but in front of all the students were put two things that looked kind of like an ash tray that you flip up. One was power and the other was an ethernet jack. And what happened after completing this renovation, a million dollars per classroom, was that they looked beautiful and they were much more comfortable and students could roll around instead of sitting like this while they were being taught. But the faculty immediately took a vote to turn off the ethernet jacks as soon as they had been put in. Why? It just seemed like a terrible thing to let the internet in the classroom. Why did we spend all this money to wire this up? One faculty member, our friend Jonathan Citrin, said, oh, in the past they were doing solitaire, now they can do hearts, right, if they're networked. But this basic idea that in institutions we often say, yes, we need the technology, it's going to improve education. Let's put some in. And then once you have, they're like, oh gosh, what did we do? We want to turn it off immediately. A similar project is the building that we're in now to situate you. This building actually opened only a few months ago. And it reflects in many respects what the Harvard Law School seeks to be in education. There are wonderful aspects of it. It was designed beautifully by the then dean, Elena Kagan, now Justice Kagan, which I love to say, our Supreme Court Justice, by bringing teachers in with architects and others and said, what kind of an educational environment do we want to create? And some aspects of this have gone very, very well. So a third of this building, the segment this way, is all the clinical wings. So now every year, most Harvard Law School students do real lawyering by practicing in communities. And it's a crucial part of the educational mission. And we've honored it with a third of this huge, beautiful building. It's a very important part of the experiential learning of being a lawyer. Other respects, if you tour through some of the rooms, you'll see lots and lots of rooms where they're sort of small clusters and tables so that students can now work in teams. So instead of just drilling them as we did individually, we now actually have them work in teams to solve problems. Another thing very hard to do in classrooms that were structured the way others were. There are breakout rooms everywhere, which are filled with students. It's actually hard as a teacher here sometimes to get breakout rooms to have students in because they work in them constantly. But it's also important to note that in this room, many of you have had to sit in the back to try to plug in your computers, right? We have not put power plugs in here. And I'd like to say it was because we decided that we shouldn't have power plugs so that people wouldn't be distracted by the technology. But I'm told, this may be an apocryphal story, but the designers of the building thought that there would be electrical power via wireless by the time the building came online and that that would be a more efficient way to do it than putting these in. I don't know if that in fact happens to be true or not, but in any event, that's why if you need power, you have to go back to the back. But I think that this notion of intentionality is really important in the design of our teaching institution. Sometimes for education spaces, we sort of go too far ahead with the technology and then don't know what to do with it. On the other hand, sometimes we don't do enough imagining that the future is there and seems to me for OER, we're at a moment where a lot of it is actually happening, but we need to have the vision for where these many interventions actually come together. And I think it's wonderful that we have this moment to discuss both the key success factors necessary and the key interventions that we're most excited about. So hopefully that's given you enough time to look at what's up on the screen and think of your own things. There are Berkman runners with microphones, I hope, and I can be a Berkman runner with a microphone. But who would like to add either to the key factors for success or the specific interventions that we're most excited about from these various perspectives? This is the hardest segment right after lunch when everybody settles in, but I'm sure there are great thoughts brewing in this room. Or you can critique ones that are already up here. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. We'll let you do more reading. Well, maybe I'll ask, while you think about specific interventions, a question that Carolina Rossini's and others' comments brought up for me as I was listening, we broke it down into the perspective of the learner, the facilitators, quasi-teachers and other intermediaries and builders. And if you listen to each one, somebody forcefully said, the most important thing is for us to get into the perspective of the learner and work from there. And somebody else said, the most important thing is to make this easy for teachers and have teachers as partners. And somebody else said, the most important thing is for us, in fact, to make it easy to do building in chunks, right? We've had a lot of most important things. And the answer may, of course, be we have to do all of them, but also maybe there's a force ranking. Does anybody want to weigh in on what the most important thing is or must we have a multi-front effort? Yes, thank you. Sally, this is a group effort, our cluster effort. It must have come out of the cluster F success. It did, but you missed it. I see, yes. I was meeting with a student, actually. I was doing my day job. This is a home game for me, so it's difficult. I have to sneak out and do other things. I'm not sure this is on. It is now. I believe, yes, indeed. One of the things that you missed in our discussion of our cluster was the whole notion that if we focus on too many things, we can get lost in what we're doing. And there are finite resources to develop materials and to develop learning resources, and it's good to move them in similar directions. All of those things that were mentioned are important, but they build on one thing I would suggest, and that is the student and learning. And if we start with that as a premise and say things need to be built to help students learn and to acknowledge that no group of students learn in all the same way, it's important that we have resources that are available to let students have access to learning materials and resources from very different perspectives. They come with a different learning style. They come with different a priori knowledge. They approach whatever they're doing with a great deal of diversity across the whole concept of who are the learners. Yes, it's important that teachers have things that they can help students have access to to allow those students to learn what they need to learn. And yes, it's critically important that the teachers and or whoever the hierarchy is in the framework be able to organize the students' learning and assist the student through the learning, but the learning materials themselves need to be geared to students and we need to take a perspective of what's going to help students learn to move this forward. Thank you, so I hold onto the mic for a second and I'm going to nudge you one bit more since you've stepped up to the mic. Wonderful prioritization. Students come first. This is where we should start. Just so we kind of get the language of what you're thinking about in terms of what the science of learning is. Are you adopting the Howard Gardner style multiple intelligences framework since word Harvard may as well invoke one of our own from 30 years ago and up to now? Or do you have something else in mind when you think about students and multiple learning styles? Can we use Gardner's multiple intelligences as a keyword or would you adjust it in some fashion? I don't think we can use Gardner's because we're no longer dealing with an individual that we say moves into these different realms of approaches to learning or multiple intelligences. We're also dealing with such diversity in knowledge base for learners. So I'm at a university right now that our faculty do not teach. Our faculty coach and guide our students have to have access to good online high quality learning materials. We don't create them. We license them. We find them. We pull them together from all kinds of resources. Some of the students that are working in the same program of study are going to come into that program of study with highly developed literacy skills either in computation or in language or whatever and others are going to be at a different level and they're still working in the same realm. So that's an example of how I don't think Gardner's work really would reflect what we need and some students will have to work at different paces not have to but choose to work at very different paces. If the materials aren't designed to allow that to happen and they're keyed to only a classroom environment back to the teacher being quote the most important we lose the effect of being able to accommodate to the widest variety of students and the Gardner approach is one. That's fine. I mean, I studied that as an undergraduate. It was great. However, we have so many more variables that are coming into play when we try to describe who the learners are. Got it. Thank you. Will anyone agree or disagree even better with Sally's opening premise? Back here please. I just want to add one note to that. We're talking about making it possible for diverse learners to reach the same goal but I think the other thing we keep forgetting is the type of economy that we're in. We actually don't need to anymore produce learners that are clones or that meet the same particular standard. We actually need diverse learners. We need learners to learn different things to develop different skills and that's in the knowledge economy where the ultimate goal of education should be different as well. Great. And would you mind telling us your name and where you're from just as a norm unless you're not willing to be on the record? But it feels like it might be helpful for everybody to get to know one another. It's Yota Toborganos and I'm the director of the Inclusive Design Research Center and Flow Project. Wonderful. Thank you. Other comments? Yes. Sir. So along those lines and with like with most hard problems I think the biggest challenge is the last mile. Oh, I'm Andrew Maliazzi from finalsclub.org. The last mile problem. So the end goal is not necessarily only getting resources out onto the internet but into students' brains and I think that requires more than anything the students' motivation. I think when we talk today about teachers in the flip classroom as being coaches and motivators, I think that's probably the most valuable intervention we can enable to encourage students to want to learn. I think when they're ready to have it really at their fingertips I think that's why Khan Academy has been such a success because it's really just a Google search away at the moment when you're cramming for your exam the night before when nothing else is at your fingertips. So Andrew, I'm with you. That would be a good thing and that certainly belongs as a key factor but can you just do the obvious or maybe not so obvious linking between that and OER because they don't necessarily that you could have coaches and mentors and use entirely Pearson produced materials that are not at all OER or pick your commercial publisher. So they're not necessarily linked concepts unless you do a little bit more kind of logical work here. Well, that's true and you cannot read a free textbook just like you cannot read a textbook for $200 I suppose. So it doesn't matter necessarily where the content comes from. In terms of OER, I think the key is having it be most accessible because that paywall when you most need it is important if you can just get access to it immediately that does lower barriers to learning I think but also just in terms of being something that is equally accessible to everyone who's involved in a student's academic life whether it be the teacher, a parent or a tutor at home you don't have to worry about having a textbook because it's always freely available wherever you are. So am I restating it incorrectly or correctly when I say the most important thing about OER is its broad accessibility to lots of people in the learner's life? I think so. I would say that. Very helpful. We're getting someplace. These are prioritization statements. Carolina wants it back. So talking about most important things, right? One of the things we were discussing in our group it's about, sorry, localization, right? And what does that mean? And I think that opens in many to be most important things that is about open technologies, open licensing, involving community and has individuals and volunteers. So this is one of the things on how you enable people to localize, right? It's not how to localize OER but how you enable a broader community to use and localize those resources and what are the implications for economic knowledge and law and et cetera. So can you just maybe take a discrete example and build that out a little bit? So what is the... Let's use the R. We've tended to focus on the O and the E but what's the R you're thinking of that needs localization? Is it a... Are you thinking about a file in the sense of a Wikipedia entry or a Khan Academy video or any number of other things that might qualify as an R that then needs to be localized? Are you thinking about that in different terms? We are thinking about how the translation of softwares and platforms like we are thinking about building OER within curriculum. So when we take technology to developing countries OER is already part of the training of the teachers, right? Or we are thinking about taking this topic to multinational forums. So when OER arrives in the country that doesn't clash with the local policy. So there are various examples that are more concrete, right? That comes from it and how we think when we are designing our OER projects that how we're going to design our projects in a way that this development is enabled. And can you give a couple examples of what localization means? Is it linguistic localization? Is it for an individual learner? That was one of the discussions of our group and I think we mainly think about language but also language means culture. So that was actually Wayne used that phrasing if I'm not incorrect. So starting with language and then letting people do the second step which is the culture, right? And would the localizers be the facilitators in our language or the makers or the learners or all of the above potentially? So in terms of individuals we were looking both into collaborations between the users and also gerry's. So if you think about that macro micro categories there are two that need to talk. Got it. And what's your cluster Carolina? Which was your cluster that had this good conversation? A. Cluster A? All right. Cluster A gets an A. That's cool. That's a good one. Excellent. I love how the clusters are coming in even in the top down session. That's good. Awesome. Who else? I did not expect silence from this August group I have to say. Matthew Battles tell us who you are. I'm Matthew Battles with Metalab, a Berkman project. I feel like I'd like to see some intervention around outreach and raising consciousness beyond the classroom in communities at large in the cultural discourse as it were. I think we have some kind of wedge points in terms of the breaking down of cultural barriers to the use of Wikipedia in many contexts. The work that Creative Commons has done to slowly infiltrate the world of cultural makers and artists and creators, I think there's more of that work that could be done for open education resources ways to intervene in the dialogue so that what learners expect, all of us being learners ultimately, what students expect, what parents expect their children to experience in the classroom is open. So what does that kind of outreach look like? How does that conversation get fostered in the community at large? Matthew, we're here at the Harvard Law School and one of the things that we drill students in is thinking analogically. Are there analogies that might help? Can you think of any analogic movements or experiences you might know about getting it out in this fashion that we might model the OER experience after? Well, I think again of Wikipedia and Creative Commons as resources that have built an identity in society at large. Sort of on the other end of some spectrum, I'm not sure what it is I think of long term projects like Theatre of the Oppressed you know community developed engagement and a kind of rubric for a kind of experience that happens among people in community organizations. I'll give you one example. I've got a friend in Toronto who developed a project called Upper Toronto and this was a kind of crazy theatrical slash community development intervention in which he and his collaborators started a series of community meetings like community, like neighborhood development meetings organized around the idea that they were going to build a Toronto on top of the Toronto that exists today a kind of Toronto in the sky and under this kind of science fictional notion they got groups at neighborhood levels to start thinking about what their ideal neighborhood is, what their ideal city is, what ways their experience in Toronto falls short from their model of what they'd like to see and so in a kind of fun and playful way they moved towards a kind of set of begun to specify a set of interventions that they could make in policy in the political dynamics of the city so maybe there are ways in which you can think about anything from a pop up classroom the way groups around North America had these pop up parks in parking spaces maybe it's a media campaign with viral video, maybe it's a way of using Khan Academy videos in kind of remixing them in interesting ways to get to other media other than the web I don't know, those are some kind of spectrum of analogies that come to mind. Super helpful and it turns out that in one of the nice serendipitous events we have many people from Creative Commons here who might be able to amplify this and Cable Green is in fact the director of global learning who could answer that but if things get slow again, Matthew I'm coming back to you, Matthew is written too at least of the most interesting books on libraries that I know of and we haven't actually talked that much about libraries, they might be a good piece to fill in this puzzle as a library director myself, I'm quite conscious of the extent to which there is commonality of effort and increasingly so as we digitize our collection, so I may be coming back to you if you're willing. Very well, thanks John. So I like your question a lot about how do we get parents and students to expect that open is the default in their learning environments and when it's not there that there's something wrong with that and I think there's a lot of strategies that you could use, one of them that I'm most interested in is commonly referred to as open policy so open policy in a nutshell says if you are taking public funds and you're using those public funds to build something that it's fine to keep the copyright whoever builds it, but you must put an open license on what you build why? Well, because it was paid for by the public the public should have free and open access to what they paid for. If we move to open policies and move broadly to open policies and what I mean by that is countries around the world adopt open policies where they say if you take this federal or national government money you will share what you build. If there are institutional policies that say if you are a faculty and you're paid with public funds you will share what you build. If states, countries that recognize that they have common educational resource needs for example to use the United States as an example today there are 46 states that have adopted the common core standards in fact those 46 states have common need around textbooks and curriculum that's updated to meet those new standards. It's appropriate I would argue for the government to see that as a national priority and a common need and in fact as public funds are already used in public education in this case elementary education and they're currently being used in a highly inefficient manner. Public policy makers once educated about public policy should very quickly move toward it and then the default the net result of that is really two things of open policy. One is that the public money which is where most of the money is I mean as grateful as we all are to the Pulit Foundation and other foundations for helping to fund OER movements most of the money is not in foundations most of the money is in the public sphere so the one outcome is that you move the bulk of the public funds that go to education and go to research to open and the to be very specific about that if you want this money you will share what you build if you're not willing to share what you build you may not have this public money that's what open policy gets at. So the one outcome is that sustainability around open really ceases to become an issue because the public funds have shifted. Open is now the default and closed and proprietary becomes the exception and if you want to use public funds and you want an exception you want to close it you're going to have to make quite a good case before the public will allow you to do so. So that's one outcome you get in the second outcome which I really think goes to your question is that you with public policies you really change the air you change the environment of the learning of the learning space because if the default public policy is that all public funds are openly licensed materials or research or whatever is being produced then the public now has an expectation that they'll have access right so if I if I go into a classroom as a student as a taxpayer I have an expectation that my my textbooks my course materials the research the data that's generated by my government etc that as a public tax-paying citizen I'll have access not just free access but also legal access to all that information then I think we change the expectations and I know that Sir John Daniel and to make our here from Commonwealth of Learning they'll talk about some very exciting work that's happening now and this year in fact around this very topic. Okay we'll hang on to the mic for one second just want to have you look at what we've put on the screen because I'm not positive it reflects what you meant so where it says adopt open policy in OER movements is it in fact adopt open policy at the school of what's the level at which who should be adopting open policies. In your ideal world a year from now if X people said open policy is the way to go who would that be. Yes so open policy the one sentence on it is publicly funded resources are openly licensed resources now you can also say publicly funded resources go into the public domain that's that's okay too but to the extent that some people want to keep copyright publicly funded resources are openly licensed resources so it's not just about OER right it's about anything that's built with public funds should be openly licensed and freely this obviously links us to the open access movement others have taken similar policies who's the decision maker who are the series of decision makers that we're speaking to. Yeah so I think ideally those of us who are interested in open policy we're shooting at multiple levels certainly governments so you're looking for national policies where the country is saying when public funds are used of public monies at the national level that those those resources will be openly licensed you're looking at states and provinces to adopt similar policies you're looking for educational systems to adopt certain policies so my last job I worked for the Washington community and technical colleges and they adopted a system-wide policy that said if you take money from the system you will put a CC buy license on everything you build if you don't like those terms don't take money from the system right and then you can then you go down to institutional policies also very effective you can get a single institution to adopt a similar policy and the nice thing about these open policies is as precedents begin popping up we can point at others and one country will point at another country and say well the Netherlands are ahead of the United States we need to catch up how do we catch up to that the Netherlands is ahead Australia is ahead Poland just moved ahead with open textbooks Brazil has been leading for a long time and so there gets to be some competition right we don't want to be behind so it's national state and system-wide policy makers who are the target in a way of this at least the next stage in policy making and I'd go as granular as institutions I wouldn't go much lower than that got it very helpful and I'll come back to you if there's not another hand I just want to do one per customer until then yes sir I think part of our struggle when I think about raising the discourse is it strikes me that to a large degree we really struggle to put forth exemplars that can really capture people's imaginations right why is this important you know I subscribe to the sort of clay christians in view of the world that says people hire products and services to help them do a job they have in their life and and they want that job to be done more efficiently more cheaply and they want it to be done easily and so they go out and look for a product or service to help them do that and I think what we struggle with to a degree is why who cares why should it matter what is it that we can say what is it we can hold up that people can grasp onto that's why I look at something like textbooks and you sort of say that that does capture people's imagination a little bit because they understand it they understand they pay $180 and I could pay anywhere between zero and $30 and that that's concrete and helps people do a job they're already doing more cheaply and more efficiently so I think that part of the challenge is you know sort of what is it that people publicly can rally around and say this is a really important movement I mean I think Cable you know your point is right but it doesn't mean people get emotionally behind it and so what is it that we can hold up that people can get emotionally behind you know when Excelsior University builds a sub $10,000 bachelor's degree because they were able to build it on the building blocks of open resources that becomes more meaningful in people's imaginations wow you're saying a degree can become less than $10,000 because of the existence of these open resources I get that but we we don't have a lot of those so the intervention I guess there specifically is we need more I think really specific examples and beach heads that people can grab onto and say I see the end benefit of this and therefore I can get behind the policies that would scale this greater and faster great can you hang on to the mic for a second you invoked Clayton Christensen another member of the faculty here and I wanted to push you a little bit on his view of this to see how far you'll go have you read his book on universities I suspect being a flat world now as you would do you subscribe to the full extent of his theory about what the future holds for universities which if you have read it it's pretty bleak right we may be the very high-end universities will persist but the vast majority of universities that either don't have a brand to rest on at the very very high level or who do something really radical and amazing in terms of changing themselves are going to go out of business right do you go that far I think I probably do I don't know what the time frame of that is but we were talking in our subgroup I think at the end of the day you know Maslow's hierarchy is sort of real and I think one of the things that people are in pursuit of is security and a big part of that security is economic self security and I think people will pursue the avenues that they see as the direct lines to that economic self security and so as I thought Kevin Carey wrote a wonderful piece today in the Chronicle about badges at UC Davis and you know we're all talking about skills like systems thinking and problem solving being critical and what UC Davis is saying is I can give you a degree but along with that degree I can give you some real badges that indicate that you are an excellent systems thinker and that's blending the best of sort of a traditional educational approach with the best of sort of a new approach to education I think that is an enlightened view and that could make UC Davis's program in agricultural systems very relevant into the future I think that competing with programs that don't that's going to win the marketplace will value that approach and I actually think one of the great benefits of OER but it's hard to put your finger right on it is that in our own way in a very disconnected incidental sort of way we are creating a lot of the building blocks that are allowing disruptors in education to come along and say hey there's starting to be enough stuff that I can stitch together affordably and start to deliver an alternative product to the traditional institutions and provide a more direct pathway for people looking for economic self security that's a huge macroeconomic driver I think that trends are going to just continue I think that disruption will become increasingly exponential and I do think that he's probably right in the long run that that's going to happen great so one more beat and we'll go to Erhard one of the difficulties I think that we face those who believe in OER is to articulate this vision that you're talking about and have some exemplars as you noted one of the difficulties I have with Clay Christensen's arguments and was on a panel with him recently on this topic is the extent to which I think there's a version of this that really just stands in for online education and actually says it's not about residential experiences it's not about the kinds of magic that one can put together in a campus and we can sort of forget about all this physical infrastructure and these face to face experiences I don't think he's talking about the flip classroom I actually think he's saying the flip classroom too might be completely out the window I think he's going way further than that are you also saying we can repurpose the great land grant universities and these wonderful spaces that we have created for education and just rely on your materials it is the logical extension of the argument and I wonder how far we actually go I think at the end of the day it feels like one I'm a supplier so I always take a supplier in a content view of the world I went to see John Bourne one of the founders at the Olin School of Engineering and he said it's good you'll take the cost of textbooks down you'll transform the textbook from the static object to this dynamic platform and people can incrementally improve it and it's all good, that's really happy stuff does anybody disagree up to that point I think most people in a sense would think more dynamism in the teaching materials is a good thing and there's nothing wrong with it but that's not really how people learn people learn when you have a really interesting and hard challenge you put them together in a team and say go solve that challenge and then you provide them with some coaching along the way and then the materials and the supplies come in in support of the pursuit of that challenge I need information, I'm stuck, I gotta read something I gotta go get a video, I gotta watch something and the more that's available to me at that just in time moment the more helpful it is and I can solve the problem and move ahead and I've actually learned something really well in a lot of places and we do it really well in other places so I think learning has to happen and it's not gonna happen by just being plopped down and here's resources so I think learning environments need to be there I think those learning environments are gonna change dramatically I don't know if I answered your question Sort of you did but you also dodged it I'm pretty good at evasiveness Erhard, there we go Hi, I'm Erhard Graef I'm a lecturer at the Berkman Youth and Media Lab I work with Andrew on Finals Club and I've been researching this space for a few years Maybe just go a little closer to the mic Sure, I can put it up I want to move a little bit away from economics and talk about culture connected back to a few things that have been said during this course and in particular SJ's point yesterday at the very end of the introductory session where he said that maybe we need to stop thinking about what we buy and sell and maybe thinking about educational materials as the building blocks of our culture and society and really maybe there needs to be a shift in the culture and the way that we think about educational materials and so I wonder if there's an intervention point that can happen at the teacher training level at teacher colleges at programs like Teach for America where we actually change the value or the values that these new teachers have when it comes to educational materials and so they're entering the classroom they have an incentive to move toward open learning tools and objects, right? because they have to create curriculum from scratch for the classrooms that they're going to enter and so they could have some building blocks to start from that would give them the incentive then to contribute down the road when they're creating their own curriculum and I wonder if that's something we could instill as a value at that level and one thing that I think about is the free culture movement was nested in colleges with free culture clubs kind of putting these ideas out there and encouraging students to change their value system around what it meant to be buying and selling culture and I think Alex Kovac who's here could do a better job of describing that model but I wonder if that is a good intervention point Eric, take a look at what we've got up here is there something more specific that you had in mind rather than sort of broad cultural change do you want some specific teacher training or are you thinking about just we should all devote ourselves to this kind of reform of how teachers think about their jobs well I mean quite honestly I think it needs to be grassroots I don't think we can ask for a value change I think it sometimes happens in politics but I really think that we need somebody we need a teacher to come to the classroom to say I'm committed to using these type of materials and contributing to that from the get go and then from there on give them tools that can support that but it has to start from then I think it's a great sound bite we cannot ask for a value change I suspect all of us would agree but can I push you the same way I push Matthew what is there any analogy to the kinds of programs that have changed cultures as substantial as the teaching culture in the United States or teaching culture in the world that's a tall order we're looking at intervention points I think just plunking it down on something to do that well there's a cognate movement I would say which is the open access scholarship movement and in that I'd say we have a cohort of graduate students that are coming through and seeing that as a value that they want to persist as they become professors and publish in open access journals and so I don't see why we can't have that at the higher education level as well as the K through 12 level saying that both of these areas are pushing toward open as the model for publication and sharing is Peter Super still here yes Peter would you mind reflecting on whether this is an apt analogy or an in apt one and then Sally gets the microphone after you then I don't see a good analogy we've been trying to change values in the open access movement for more than a decade we've started to succeed but that's because when you let enough fires they start to join together I wish we had a strategy 10 years ago to change values systematically it was called a lockdown it was called fund Peter suburb it won't work this time around but it worked the last time but you're right we have to do it that way we have to change minds we have to change minds separately we have to fund people who will organize people who will change minds we have to write persuasively so that we succeed in changing minds when people pay attention but I don't think there's a systematic strategy for doing that I wish there was can I ask you to think about other analogies so we may or may not think the open access movement is a good analogy for the kind of culture change that I heard once are there other ones that you would bring into play I can't think of a better one right now but I want to build on what he said we are now seeing graduate students and publishing scholars internalizing the values that drive the open access movement there were always some of that in the movement but the movement was largely driven by like me or by librarians and by administrators we needed uptake from the people whose decisions would make a difference those were the publishing scholars we're finally getting that but we got it after ten years of changing the environment I think we'll get the same sort of change in OER when we get uptake from the people whose decisions will make a difference that will be the people who build the people who teach the people who learn that's what we're all working on together but it's another way of saying I don't see a direct path there just a lot of indirect paths great Sally has your point been made or do you like to amplify no you'd like more and then you have to I wanted to sort of echo the notion that a change in this realm has to start very early in the teacher education and intervening having tried to do this in multiple times in the last five years intervening in that is a tough tough issue because the people who are the faculty in our colleges of education across the country have no clue how to do this so trying to think in terms of interventions that are appropriate perhaps professional association levels for faculty who teach pre-service teachers could be a very critical intervention point it will take a long time but all of our faculty and teacher ed colleges across the country are not all going to retire in the next two years they're going to be around for a long time and helping them to understand how you flip a classroom or how this can happen it's really critical and most of the efforts right now in interventions in that area is just trying to help pre-service teachers understand how to use data how to comprehend analytics so that they can understand how to predict what their students are doing it's a tough model aim for the ed schools that goes up there too can you hand it to the cool cat teacher over there with the blue skirt great thanks I'm going to go over some of the numbers Eric I'm on the supply side as well just to address your thoughts around an analog for how can we actually make this work it seems to me that it's fairly easy to export product and a lot of us fall prey and victim that fairly easy it's far more difficult to export practice and when the NBA wanted to get their sport more prominently adopted and considered around the world they didn't just ship out NBA clinics they're involved with the hearts of the minds of the folks out there and they showed them reference models and approaches for actually do this so for us I think as we think about actually having this take ground and get traction and be more effectively sustainably adopted across the globe amongst multiple stakeholders we need to think about how to also bring along the practices that go along with the product that are actually being delivered and consumed on the other side of what quasi did I say your name correctly if someone might be watching this as a separate segment you're all well known to us Vicki Davis flat classroom projects and cool cat teacher blog what you said about clinics is exactly right and I'm going to give a hat tip here to the clandestine cluster K that we're in we've named ourselves but if you want to look you've been asking what are some examples of grassroots change and I saw many speak from K-12 and they're three I can think of number one the web heads when they created that program at edtech talk about four years ago that preceded the explosion of podcasting and education you've got the Google teacher academy that's three or four years ago that it started and now you see it two or three years later and you've got the 23 things which is a very viral open training program for librarians that just about every savvy librarian I know has been through that program it's very open and so our group has actually been talking about creating the OER challenge for 2013 where there need to be and to sell it as the opportunity to explore and align so that you don't leave opportunity on the table as you're aligning with common core standards and give them a way to go through 52 weeks out of the year you know a different opportunity every year but to also ask OER resources to make it so that we can tag everything with a standard so K or the US it doesn't matter that we could actually tag your resources with a standard and find other users that are using those resources so you know I think there should be a formal program and since you're open it's going to have to be an open program but actually have an injection point to get everybody on your platform and using it this week and then using it next week but those are if you want to look at best practices those are the three that I would suggest you look at because they have had major change in K-12 Vicki thank you and what's your cluster so we can credit your group for those ideas the clandestine cluster K's I love it the clandestine cluster K's we've got just a moment or two before we switch over to Justin right can I know Justin if you want to come on up and start setting up as we do so there's good transition time but I wanted to see is anyone from our host at the Hewlett Foundation want to have a last word on this segment noting that we've made a bunch of suggestions as a community of both key factors and key interventions I don't know a privileging of a host comment might make sense at this point that was a general cold call on our friends but yeah that would be great Caroline here has the mic coming to you sorry hi so I'll just say thank you all for your for your great ideas I mean I think overall change needs to come from everyone in the community right and so I can't say anything about like what's fundable or not fundable or those kinds of things if you're looking for that kind of this is more a reflection or is this in the right general direction that sort of thing but I think these are all great intervention points for us to keep in mind as we continue to talk through our clusters as we think through the heat map as we're thinking about where could these possibly fit in the ecosystem as far as being sustainable I like the idea of probably taking a few of these maybe to the hack day and seeing if there are some things that could come out of the hack day also great so for my part the thing that I heard very clearly was we trended in the early segments to be focusing on relatively kind of point interventions and in this broader group it seemed like there was a hungering to take a very successful but relatively early stage movement and make it a much bigger one and one that is mainstreamed I don't think that's a surprise but it just seemed like that's where we all inclined that seems like a good sign that everybody's thinking about scaling up in productive ways and I want to thank you for active participation in this first of the synthesis session so thank you so much thank you so much