 Hilaria so Andrew what what were you up to over the weekend? Do anything fun? I was with the babies I spent the entire weekend doing nothing and just hanging out with the kids this is this is you know, actually Tom I don't think I had kids the last time I did the show Well, so it's been more than a year. It has been morning. I have more than one. I had no job. I had no job And I had no kids So much has changed. Yeah. All right, context. Yeah, you know, just hanging out that I actually I have no I'm remodeling my house Which is a total disaster. I have no first floor now and I actually have no studio because it's in pieces So next time we see each other You'll not only have kids and a job, but you'll have a first floor. I'll have a first floor. Yeah So we started doing the last time we spoke. I had no first floor. Well, who knows? Maybe maybe I won't have a second floor the next time I do. Yeah, right For not having a studio your shop looks real nice. Yeah, I'm in my I'm at my office on In midtown Manhattan right now, but I have a little piece. I made a makeshift I guess the only part of my house is not destroyed is the corner that I do my shows from So I'm looking at I guess just plywood. Yeah at that point. I'm just that's my view with the point You know what up when I'm doing the show, but it's been a you know, they told they say six weeks It's been three months Always the way though. It's always the way they'd said three months have been six months. Oh, it's brutal It's brutal. So at least you know, I'm lucky enough to be here. So this is easy Yeah, we're gonna be you know for a dingy room. Yeah, no works works great And we're gonna talk about the future of podcasting Yeah, or the lack of Yeah, I meant to read this Well, Carl Bode Carl Bode does not pull punches when he writes his stuff for Tector. Let me just tell you that the first first line of his story about The lawsuit against California's net neutrality law law is let's be clear about something Audgett Pye's FCC repeal of net neutrality was already a mammoth f you although he writes it out to the American public Lead lead sentence right there you know Otis says I don't understand net neutrality He'll get there He's young. It's a long-income complicated road I'm like, yeah 30 years later. He still might not really go to All right, I am good All right, I am ready to go to you guys ready. I Am ready. Yep Okay I'll go in 10 seconds maybe four three two one Thanks to everyone who supports the daily tech news show directly to find out more head to daily tech news show dot com slash support This is daily tech news for monday october 1st 2018 in los angeles. I'm tom merit and from studio feline. I'm sarah lane And from l.a. county. I'm roger chaing Also joining us today very happy to have andrew zarian from what the tech back on the show After much too long andrew. How's it going? I'm back. Uh, all right. Not bad. I think we figured out before The last time I did the show Before we started the show the last time I did the show I had no kids and I had a first floor and now Now I have two kids and no first floor. Yeah, was it a direct trade or to the one after come after the other One had to come after the other. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that that actually sounds sounds familiar. That sounds about right Well, we're going to talk about the the future of podcasting with based on an article in medium or medium post From one of the guys who formerly led the podcasting effort at audible and so he he knows quite a quite a bit from the front lines about the Supposed decline of podcasting that maybe some people are saying but let's start with a few tech things you should know Google is adding a commute tab to google maps that highlights congestion and disruption on your route In 80 regions, it'll show you your bus or train in real time on the map And if you live in sydney australia, you'll also get passenger capacity as well Maps is also adding playback controls for spotify apple music and google play music And the updates are rolling out worldwide to android and ios this week And i wish i shaped it this best buy best buy mistakenly sold a customer a third generation chromecast Thing is no third generation chromecast has been announced It's probably going to be announced at google's october 9th event Which is obviously going to be about the pixel 3 but they the rumor is they're going to have a lot of hardware announcements The buyer said it wouldn't scan it check out Because it's not supposed to be sold until october 9th But since the list price was the same as the current chromecast the best buy let him buy it anyway He couldn't set it up when he got home though. It requires a new version of the home app that likely will be released I don't know around october 9th probably but it's just Funny one now we have pictures of what the new chromecast looks like not much different than the old one to be honest instagram co-founders kevin system and mike kriger named vp of product out of maserie as the new head of instagram This was rumored last week when we heard that the two were leaving the company the two founders The founders said they think maserie will continue to keep the instagram community front and center What else would they say? Well, they try to downplay the Facebook's gonna ruin instagram, but but of course. Yes Facebook has made some inroads into Instagram as it is so sure Okay, let's talk a little more about uh someone else who we've been following Lawsuits around elan musk. Yeah elan musk has had an interesting couple of months So saturday tesla ceo elan musk changed his mind based on what he had said previously and settled with the sec in the us over tweets about taking the company private you might recall He did that and it may have affected stock pricey and add things that aren't necessarily kosher So the sec had filed a lawsuit claiming that the tweets were fraud musk and tesla will pay 20 million dollars each In fines each an independent chairman will replace musk on the board of directors And two independent directors will be added to the board as well musk will however remain a ceo in a separate investigation by the department of justice continues So it's not over yet. We'll see what the doj comes up with but I mean, oh it's so tempting isn't it to just because Andrew on friday musk was saying well, I can't do a settlement. It wouldn't be true to myself So I guess he decided it was true to himself over the weekend I think we all could learn that the some of these CEOs of especially publicly traded companies maybe shouldn't be going on twitter and uh, you know divulging and ideas that they have and and futures of the company like that There is I'm trying to think of the you know, why is it understandable that he did this? It's easy to to throw the mud at him at this point and say, you know, what an idiot Why did he you know, why did he ever think it was okay? I guess there is a strain of musk that says And this is what people admire him for Rules are made to be broken. Not all rules are great And this is how I've been able to do space x and tesla is to to turn over the conventional wisdom And maybe it's okay to just tell people be transparent and say hey I'm thinking of taking the the company private and I think I've got it figured out It was all about the phrasing and the impact of the words I think Yeah, and I think you know, there's there's two ways you can look at it Was it some sort of premeditated way to To inflate stock prices. Was it just musk saying this is twitter? I'm just talking I'm a person like everybody else, which of course you would say That may or may not be true. I have no idea, but um, why is twitter the platform that always gets people in trouble? Because there is no filter You can put anything you want you've got plenty of other platforms. You could have written a medium poster, you know taken to reddit or I don't know Anyway, all right on august 10th the fbi executed a search warrant on the home of grant makalski looking for evidence of sending or receiving child pornography The agents found an iphone 10 and asked makalski to look at the phone in order to unlock it using face id Which he did he did they didn't like grab his head and force him to do it He he did it willingly by all accounts It is thought to be however the first case of law enforcement using face id to unlock a phone as part of an investigation makalski cooperated so this doesn't test whether suspects can be compelled To use their face to unlock a phone although you could make some arguments about you know It's kind of intimidating. Everybody's crawling all over your house So maybe he was compelled in a way from a certain point of view But this wasn't someone who was actively resisting and calling on their lawyer and and being compelled in that way We'll see if that changes when he goes to court if he goes to court They also didn't get all the information within the time limit of the face id unlock And so later they had to crack the password anyway, which they say they have tools Just took place in ohio and apparently the police department there had tools to be able to crack the password, but People making a lot of significance about this. What do you think folks? About the significance of this particular case Andrew I've you know, it's funny because About a year or two years ago the argument was can they take your forcefully take your thumb and make you unlock the phone And now we're talking about they don't even have to do that and I don't know Where to go beyond this if you know, obviously if you're a criminal and you committed some heinous crime like child pornography You know, I'm a little bit more To the side of the government to do whatever they have to do to kind of prosecute you and figure out What the what the next process is but if you are you know, whatever the who knows what the scenario is if A police officer or an FBI agent, you know, federal or local takes the phone just holds it to your face And you have no idea what's happening Is that you know unethical? Yeah, and and that's a question that this case isn't going to to clear up Uh, and and what Andrew's referring to as far as the forcing your fingerprint The the way the law works in the u.s. Is you're protected against self-incrimination So the contents of your mind is usually the way courts put it are protected You don't have to give a password because that would be self-incriminating. However The print on your thumb is not protected. It's not self-incrimination. It's a thing you have Like being compelled to give over a key for instance Uh, so they've ruled that you have to unlock with your thumb print in in a couple of cases They've never ruled on face ID and face ID if you aren't looking if you keep your eyes closed you can You know pretty credibly prevent it from working That's said as somebody who has face ID for the first time because I never had the uh, the iphone 10 I will say there are times where it's like the phone is almost like Like going by my face quickly and it unlocks real quick and you know, I set it up to do exactly that Face ID works almost too well at times So and again, none of us were here in you know the event that we're describing But I wonder how much it was like what's your password and he says I'm not giving it to you Well, okay, and then you know face ID kind of you know, they they get into the phone it is It it seems like It's one step easier than forcing somebody to put a fingerprint on their phone and again The accounts are that they asked him to unlock it and he did there wasn't there was no account that said that they tricked him into it Or they asked him to unlock it and he wouldn't there was no Report of resistance in this case. So it's not a great test case for that reason Fast company reports that tim burners lee will launch his company Inrupt Court of like disrupt but inrupt this week to offer user control over personal data using the decentralized platform solid developed by burners lee's team and at mit Inrupt stores data in a solid pod which lets users own their data and then control which services and applications Can access their personal data rather than storing it separately with every service developers can build decentralized apps through the inrupt sites He may made a Comment in the fast company article That he is not working with facebook and google because he doesn't think this fits their business plan And he's not going to ask them for permission to develop this So this is something i very much want to see catch on the idea that you have a decentralized pod That holds your data and you get to decide Who you share it with and can revoke that access? I love this idea The only way it catches on is if enough startups and developers create enough Services and applications that use it that people also want to use That it becomes something where the google's and facebook's of the world feel pressure to include Because people love it so much in the other places where they use it And and so it's a chicken and egg problem at this point And this is the week where it starts to see will we get enough of these kinds of services on board? Yeah, i'm curious to see what what other companies adapt this because that really holds the future of of this kind of decentralized platform when it comes to your your information Yeah, uh, it's it's open to developers as of this week Uh berners lee says this is the kind of thing developers love but when he's talking about developers He's talking about indie developers. I think Uh, not so much the developer who works at amazon the developer who works at google um I i'll be very curious to see who the biggest company to jump on the board earlier is Uh, or if a startup Can can leverage this to create a service that does something that the others can't and disrupts them or interrupts them that way On sunday california governor jerry brown signed a net neutrality bill into law that forbids isps from speeding up or slowing down certain kinds of content Or charging companies to deliver their sites or apps faster To customers of their services in the state of california Within hours the u.s. Department of Justice filed for an injunction against the law on the grounds that the internet operates across state lines And therefore states cannot regulate interstate commerce The california law would not go into effect until january 1st This is going to be a fight It's the federal government saying the states don't right have the right to regulate the internet There could be some unsettling precedence if the government the federal government wins this because I don't know state taxes Are levied on the internet, uh, and and the internet across the state lines for commerce there That is in fact interstate commerce Right there um, i'm not sure what kind of pandora's box they're opening here and Most of the experts out there when the fcc said we are not in charge of regulating net neutrality for the internet, which is one of the premises of the of agit pies fcc Uh, they said well if that's the case then that leaves it to the states and courts will say well You decided not to regulate therefore it's up to the states to determine how they regulated themselves Andrew, what are your thoughts on? obviously, we're talking about california, but um many states in the u.s. Have have Either introduced various, uh, um Well laws that would become laws eventually or at least Said they'd push back on on what the federal government has put into place or You know, the these are the sorts of things where i'm like, okay It sounds like a you know a big legal tussle that's going to happen for a long time Now i have my own opinions about what should happen But in general, it's hard for me to to see something like this and know how it's going to play out So this so is this the first is this unprecedented? Is this the first time that a state has done this? Yes, the other states that have done similar things have said if you're dealing with the government Will only give you a contract if you agree to these rules, which is which is harder to go after This is the state saying whether you're dealing with us or not You can't do this for customers that live in the state of california. You know, I I don't know how I feel about this if this is a positive Obviously, we're going to see we're going to see other states follow through with this if this is successful Or even if it's not successful, we're going to see an attempt Um if I were to see even on the lowest level if we leave it down to the municipalities to control our internet access And how that works, you know here in new york city doesn't work too well when we're limited with what we could do if a state is now Putting in regulation obviously it's we don't want to regulate speed when it comes to certain types of applications or sites But once you extend this where where does this go beyond this and that's the biggest question that I have I don't think the argument is this is terrible that the state of california wants to Forbid isps from regulate, you know downs making the speed higher or slower depending on the site But it also opens up a whole pandora's box. Like you said as to what else this leads to Yeah, uh, it's again, uh The the government the federal government is trying to make the argument that because the internet is so complex and crosses state lines one state can't decide how it works, but They do in lots of other internet related things so, you know Particularly taxes state taxes and deciding where someone is when they buy something is done by ip address I mean, there's lots of good arguments on the federal government side, but they apply to more than just net neutrality We'll see well, let's talk about 5g shall we Verizon has turned on 5g service in parts of houston indianapolis, los angeles and sacramento The expected average speed is 300 megabits per second and customers get free access for the first three months After which point it'll be 70 dollars per month At the same time pew research published a study showing that the percentage of people in the us Who use smartphones as their only internet connection? rose from 8 and 2013 To 20 percent this year the number of households with home internet connections dropped from 70 percent in 2013 To 65 percent. This is the landline all over again. Yeah, so it started with the landline that it moved a cable Uh and now cord cutting as the fortune article says is moving Uh to actual home internet I'm going to be old-fashioned because I've got wired internet in my house. I'm not just relying on that fast 5g Which is also interesting because the 5g service verizon is launching today is home internet service Even though it's wireless it's delivered to your home. It's not necessarily for your mobile phone at this point There will be 5g service for that down the line as well, but uh, I think it's fascinating this trend of Hey, you know the internet's just in the air so If I want to save some money and I've got to choose between an uh, $50 a month Mobile phone plan or a $50 a month wired internet plan. I'm going to choose the mobile phone plan Yeah, but now we lead into the world of caps and limitations and uh peak hour usage and all this stuff One of the verizon's big thing has been uh What pushing this has been watch your netflix. Watch your hulu. Watch your streaming media all on this wireless service That we're providing you for only 70 bucks Um, I I'm curious to see how true they stay To that model in the coming years when you know right now, they're in limited areas like houston india and apple sla How about when they expand to their overall network, you know, verizon's 5g network that'll spread all around the country Uh, I'm I'm I'm hoping that they stay true to this Not I'm I'm going to use the term uncapped right or unlimited because unlimited can be limited Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, but if we if we are unlimited and I'm using quotes for people listening How unlimited will we be because we've seen what even with fios there is a threshold of tolerance and obviously with 5g it's going to be way less At least at the beginning right until until that capacity is fully built out. So as we did with lte lte had more caps in the early days than it does now they became more unlimited even though there are limits to the unlimited We're all sort of we we the people on the show are kind of interesting use cases because where internet is really important Right because of the stuff that we do for work If I did not have to for sure make sure that my wireless internet was not going to make google hangouts act weird I might not have a problem with this. I also have a plethora of friends now who They might have a laptop that they can access if they really need it But really just use their smartphones as their computer. That's their computer. It's been that way for years It's fine. It it it's that's the way it has been going for for lots of folks. So I think that this is again You have your special use cases But those are going to continue to dwindle as most households Don't actually need the kind of internet That has been offered to them and something like 5g service as your only internet option works just fine And a couple of points here Verizon's home 5g that's launching Have promises to sometimes have sub millisecond latencies But even if it's a millisecond or two, that's the kind of latency That you can deal with in streaming videos is suddenly wireless becomes a potential replacement and They're giving you a discount if you have a Verizon phone for this this first 5g program So it's $50 a month if you have a Verizon mobile plan Imagine that becomes the norm too where it's like, hey, we'll give you 5g wireless You can use it on your phone and we'll hook it up so you can use it on your tv too without having to tether your phone I'm sure you're going to see lots of plans like that, especially because they're giving Free youtube tv free apple tv's to some of these early folks who sign up as well They want to get you used to using this as if it were a wired internet connection Hey, folks if you want to get all tech headlines each day in about five minutes You can you can do it easily just go to dailytechheadlines.com and do it So, uh, we have an article from Eric Nizam former audible podcasting team leader Still involved in podcasting and thinks podcasting Is getting a bad rap and some of the industrial podcast industry posts out there Paniply and slate have moved away from podcasting buzzfeed laid off its entire in-house audio team Of course audibles podcast team left Eric resigned as well He says it's not a bubble as many people have been saying but a gold rush And we're starting to realize that like all gold rushes, uh, most people don't find gold They just end up making people who sell Levi's and pans very very rich And he's like that's that's what's going on with podcasting here We've got a gold rush with four sources of money advertisements derivatives like merchandise listener support like patreon And investment from places like networks and he thinks the problem is number four investments People were pouring a lot of money in this hoping to get rich and now they're not getting rich And they're pulling out but he says podcasting is still strong the ad rates the cpms may be high But they're stable and audience numbers are actually growing more and more people are listening to podcasts. So he points out People have not only been predicting the death of podcast I've seen them predict the death of podcast more times than I Can count at this point in my years of podcasting and he points out people have been predicting the death of radio Since television came along and even podcasting didn't kill radio. He says audio is very Resilient and I'll I'll take this quote from his his post nothing beats great stories and conversations No marketing plan no network effect no tricks or tips is ever a better investment That's simply trying a bit harder to be a bit better than your last episode Which is you know Sounds very high-minded, but that's kind of the advice I've given people over the years is Prioritize making a good show And then build everything else on top of that. Andrew you've been doing this for a long time as well I what do you think of all of this? You know, I I think it comes down to uh, how you define a podcast I think over the last couple years We saw the definition of a podcast kind of evolve into more of a spoken word Type serial show for lack of a better, you know example there, but I think when you talk about Uh the amount of production that's put into some of those contents and the money that's invested and the and the quality of shows I did You know when we first started podcasting the biggest rush was comedy podcast and type podcast, right? I mean that was really the the main thing that was driving podcast The ad revenue was down. There was no major investment, but some of those shows survived and some didn't We're in a different stage of podcasting. It's very mature. Um, and obviously it's still maturing It's we're getting ad rates like radio is getting. I just had a meeting with a A big radio network here in new york an am radio network And we were discussing in a podcasting and they really wanted to know the business of podcasting and To them a podcast wasn't a radio show on the internet or or or even just what we're doing video To them their concept of a podcast was more of a spoken word Serial type show and he was asking me how do you sustain a show like that? How is the longevity of it? How much money are you putting in and I had to Essentially teach him that that's not The definition of a podcast a podcast is very broad So when you are talking about the investments like number four like you pointed out that the investments may not be there You may not need the investment of What their concept is To grow a podcast or grow brand niche products like what you do what I do Saru you've been doing podcasts. You know as long as I have it's not longer Not to date us. I don't want to do that. I'm not I'm not dating us here I'm I'm still a young man I'm still a young man in this but I I think I it bothers me when I read even these stories of his podcasting dying Top top reasons why podcasts aren't what they're meant to be Podcasts are whatever you define them as if you could have a podcast from your living room that draws 5,000 people which is not significant on a on a broadcasting level But you know what you could probably monetize that more than any Sports show in in the new york market camp because you have a niche niche audience that is willing to purchase What you are selling them? I I I don't think it's necessarily investment. That's a problem. I think the problem is Uh the the overall concept of what the podcast is I don't I don't have a specific definition Of of what it can be it could be anything to some people a youtube channel could be a podcast Um at the end of the day, you know, we have so many different Ways to get media, you know, but at the I think I was reading an article the other day They said majority of podcasts are listened to audio I think video is a very small portion as long as people are downloading things There's always going to be money and there's always going to be growth Well, and I think you know in the podcast market because of course besides dtns We all dabble in many other podcasts. We're all familiar with the fact that if you can get a General number for audience. You're good to go, but there's no real number But that's the same thing that you could argue for Uh neils and radians and tv and you know radio to a certain extent as well I met somebody the other day who was not in the tech world and was like Oh, you do a podcast. That's cool. What do you guys talk about? You know, and he wasn't being disparaging to me, but it's I think for a lot of folks that sounds like Oh, you have like a hobby thing Do I'm like a little yeah, that's you do bottle trains. That's yeah. Oh, yeah, cool. What's your podcast about? I'm like, well, it's I mean it's like a show I mean it's providing the service that you know we used to do in television But I'm kind of used to that and that's fine But I think that there's a little bit of that going on where The hobbyists and they do exist and they should In the podcasting world. Yeah, it's it's not just about like, oh if you understand how xml feeds work Then you can do a podcast It's like you lots of people do them now And that's the same thing for yes a youtube channel or something something else where it might be a labor of love That's not going to get you a lot of money Of course getting a lot of money would be great But for a lot of folks, um the barrier to entry is is lower than ever. That's a good thing But I do think that yeah, you have a lot of folks who are like, well, okay I'm in the advertising part of this and how many people are listening to your podcast or watching it As andrew mentioned video is a little bit tougher, but it happens And there are so many questions around, um, you know the bang for your buck and yes niche Niche marketing niche advertising on a podcast that's very focused on something that's actually very valuable to the audience As long as you know exactly who you're marketing to And and because of that we're still in the that wild west Part of podcasting which makes people say well, it's not lucrative enough Yeah, and and the bottom line folks, uh, when I was at sea net Sales staff was super excited about the podcast we launched called buzz out loud couldn't wait to sell it sold it to earthling It was great next best thing can't believe it. We're on top of it Within six months podcasting is dead. We can't sell podcasts Maybe we'll throw it in as a bonus with other buys, but we won't make any money off of it Uh, and that cycle is repeated over and over and over again multiple times Uh, and it's not just podcasting. I've heard it said about social media. I've heard it said about the internet itself Uh, so, you know when someone tells you something's dead that still looks pretty strong Uh, it probably just means it's changing in a way that that person doesn't like and they're very upset Now and I think gold rush is a great metaphor for this a lot of companies poured a lot of money in here thinking Oh, we'll be the next serial to andrew's point not realizing that that's not all that podcasting is or can be Uh, and when it didn't pay off quick, uh, they they cashed in their pans and and Levi's and tents and And went on back east coast with broken dreams We're still back to new york Well, it's like, you know, it's like a good book, you know, they're they're not all going to be like serial Sorry, it is the method of of of communication not the actual content itself Well, thanks everybody who participates in our sub reddit You guys are the method of communication and the content itself and we love you for it Submit stories and vote on them at daily tech news show at reddit.com We're also on facebook want to hang out in both ways is even better facebook.com slash groups slash daily tech news show Oh, look, it's the mailbag. Oh goodness gracious. How about this? Macy j from humid boston has some feedback on our quarterly hangout content idea brainstorm if you missed it Roger and tom and i got together on saturday and It talked about the show what's working what we want to improve And solicited a lot of questions from all of you and got a lot of responses. So thank you in advance Macy says i like the idea of a dTns product review show You could differentiate yourselves from others by spending At least a month with a product right instead of just being first I once got an xps laptop. It was well reviewed after a few days with a laptop I realized actually pretty hard to find the volume button when i'm watching netflix at night and I do that frequently I think if any of the reviewers actually had used the laptop for a month or more They would have noticed this and similar small issues and at least list them in the articles Which would be helpful, obviously Macy says by spending more time with the product And not solely replying on first impressions and specs You can provide your audience with relevant and quality reviews that your supporters would appreciate. Hopefully Yeah, we had a lot of suggestions along the lines of Extended reviews that's that seems to be something that because there's so many review shows out there that people don't do often enough Uh, even somebody suggested up to a year or so interesting interesting suggestion there We'll definitely keep that in mind. Yeah, and that definitely applies to a lot of reviews that I read as well It's like sometimes you read a review that's very thorough, but it's like well This is your first impression, you know because you wanted to get it out as soon as possible It's not really your six-month impression because that would be different Because you notice things over time Andrew's arian probably notices lots of things about tech reviews over time Andrew what has been going on in your world since you were last on the show Which was I don't know two children ago and how can people keep up with your work? Uh, obviously two kids So it's uh, I'm doing a little less now when it comes to the podcast, but you could follow me on twitter Obviously at Andrew's arian and of course the gfknewark.com You could check out all my stuff there. Uh, I generally do It's it's a bizarre world since we were talking about podcasting. I do technology with paul therat I do a professional wrestling show and I do a hair loss show A hair loss show that is my number one. I I produce a hair loss show. It's called the bulk There is there is a there's an audience for all three of those that overlaps. I think yeah, those are my top three You have so much hair. I was like I have a lot of hair because I have been informed on how to keep it By the way, you want to talk about podcasting what a what a what a mishmash of of nonsense that is right Technology and of course hair loss No, it's like when people say like oh, you don't need makeup and I'm like Okay, well, I won't wear any and then let's see what you say Go find it folks gfq network.com Also, october 1st means it's patreon day This is the day uh that we collect all of the pledges from folks that support the show and make it possible More lots more than 90 of our revenue comes directly from patrons and that keeps us independent. Uh, so thank you. Thank you Thank you so much. Uh patreon.com slash dts. We ended up with 17 more patrons than last month Let's see if we can get at least one more this month as well Uh patreon.com slash dts Your feedback also helps us build the best show possible because we build it for you feedback at daily tech news show Dot com is where you can write in questions comments and all that stuff We're also live Monday through friday at 4 30 p.m. Eastern 2030 utc Join us if you can find out more at daily tech news show dot com slash live back tomorrow with patrick bezia talk to you then This show is part of the frog pants network Get more at frog pants dot com Diamond club hopes you have enjoyed this program See if if if you want to learn how to lose your hair You need to host it by a bald guy if you want to learn not to how not to lose your hair You want a guy with a full head of hair, right? That's how it is I mean, you're you're selling I actually I I'm a I'm a regular on it, but I'm the producer I'm the I'm the producer of the show the guy actually the guy that does it. He's my business partner and other things Uh, he was on the radio for like 17 years. Oh, yeah here in new york and w Actually, he was on uh in la he was in on uh in washington and new york. I mean it's it's wild It's wild as a producer of shows that aren't necessarily my my my personal wheelhouse, but I mean production Um, I totally understand how that goes and you must get that so often and people saying oh, but you have hair What's what's that about? Yeah, I sometimes mess with them. I'm like, you know, it's it's a I tell people sometimes when they're like, yeah, but you have to you have a lot here I'm like, wait a minute. I'm gonna go to the bathroom. I'll take it off and then look at me like I'm nuts Well, I'm getting looked at like I'm nuts right now by uh by my co-work podcast Would you want to a person who is like sickly to to give a do a podcast on how to stay healthy? No you Obviously what the person with there, right? It's it's an aspiration quality shows it works. See look. Yeah. Yeah Also, it's it's cool too. Yes, exactly. I tell people first time I uh, so my business partner He's uh, he's a consumer advocate for hair loss. He cleans up the industry and I get asked all the time people from people They say what what should I do? I'm losing my hair. I said save yourself. Just shave your head Just shave your head. It's a good row of beard. Yeah call it a day. You're good You got you you got you got life You're controlling the destiny you're going on don't don't go down this rabbit hole of what am I doing? What elixir am I putting on my head lean into it? That's good advice. I like that. Yeah I mean think about all of the bad hairdos. I mean Hair is nice, but you're you're You're almost better off just being like let's not even get it wrong No, you could be like me and have the yeti monster thing going, you know Yeah, I have a long-term plan to keep my haircuts getting shorter and shorter and shorter So that when I do go finally bald, you won't even notice because I just you know, because yeah, you'll just it'll be it It'll be a yeah Ah, I don't know. I plan on keeping my hair till I till I throw those people Not under your control like I honestly think Roger would look cool with a shave I'm not telling you to do it, but I'm saying I'd like I think you'd look cool I will will my follicles to stay with me for the entire ride All right great Yeah, that always comes back to me. I can't escape it. Yeah, I'm sorry I can't I I've always wondered what if balding happened the other way instead of going down It was just so at the end you would have like zippy you just have like a a tuft of hair at the top Right, you would ball from the bottom up the bottom would go. Yeah You everybody will walk around with an undercoat it'd be the the uh the hairstyle of the future Well, I mean hair does tend to grow well I'm talking about men mostly about like you kind of get hair in funny places You know more ear hair and you know as you get older. Yeah, why don't ears go bald or noses? Yeah, well, you need the nose because nose hairs to keep out the dust Yeah, but you don't need them. Why do you get more of it over time? Is it because You're becoming more frail and you need more because life is cruel Life is terrible You know, it's weird. It's not weird But you know like like your feet your nose and your ears continue to grow throughout your life Is just growing a very slow pace We're not talking about the actual cartilage though. We're talking about the hair Well, I'm just wondering if that's just part of it It's like the bison. Well, that's gonna grow and might as well grow some more carpet to keep it I was not aware that feet grew over Yeah, supposedly your feet keep growing Because I know as when you talk about kind of like little old ladies my my grandma I mean, she must have shrunk half a foot. Um, oh, I see. So it's not that your feet keep growing Yeah, I think yeah, the rest of you might kind of Get on the shape of your foot changes. Yes as you get over. Yeah, right What are we calling this? Well, oh, we're calling this uh, the death of podcasting has been greatly exaggerated So long the pod cup the pod That's also the name of the Particle I like podcast. Oh it is. Yes. See I'd like podcasting is dead again All right, we can do that. It's pithy Pithy we need like three or four words male pat male patron baldness Are we uh, we're still streaming live, right? Yes. Yeah, okay. So I'll I'll tell the story. So the company it's um That I met with uh It begins with a w And then it follows with three other letters And it's an am station here in new york and uh, they're talking they they're launching a podcasting network So it's not katie k a in pittsburgh. It is See I I don't actually it's one of it's one of the big networks. Sure. Sure. Yeah And they're launching their own podcast network a podcasting network and we're having a conversation about it I'm sitting there and I'm and I'm you know I went into this and I'm talking about podcast and how I do it and my niche content and you know I'm doing a whole spiel and they go but so There what I understood from it is how do you produce a show like serial every week? That that's what they were asking me like after like 25 minutes of of me not understanding And that that's essentially what it was. I'm like, but that's like spoken word, right? I'm like, that's not what I do and you guys what I'm like just Just check it out and then uh someone's sitting down like okay. We want to start a television network How do we produce a show like game of thrones every week? Exactly? That's what we want to do about our television network I want lots of money the other guy that knows my content goes to the other person goes It's like a radio show he does. He's like, oh you do like a radio show And I'm like I do like a radio show. It's an internet radio show that you could get on demand And sometimes it's called a podcast. Yeah. Yeah, he had no idea what a podcast was He knew that serial made a lot of money or had a lot of listeners and wanted that Like, you know, you know who does good stuff like the podcast network? I'm big like into the some of those like conspiracies and then they debunk some conspiracies so they do There's skeptics that pretty much break down a thing like The Illuminati, right? They'll talk about like the legitimate backing of it and then the second episode will be the conspiracies And then they'll do one to ten of how likely is this of happening? So but that follows a spoken word style There you go Yeah, it's like saying I'm a radio host and someone being like, oh, so you're this particular kind of host It's like, I mean think of all the different radio stations that you know and formats and it doesn't really mean anything It's just like the way that it gets delivered. So we want to start a radio station. How do we do it like? Oh now I can blanket on his name crap Um Shoot like number one. Howard Stern. Howard Stern. Thank you. Why could I not think of Howard Stern's name? How do we do Howard Stern every day? We're looking for a Howard Stern type show, but we're also looking for 30 million listeners How do we do that? Yeah, how do we do that? Yeah, and how do we do it like out of the gates? Because we don't have a lot of time to like Also, we don't have a very big to like build an audience And that's what that's the secret sauce of any kind of platform or it goes outside pocket. How do you build an audience? You know, and that's one of the things I've it's if someone can figure out a foolproof method of Well, and the thing is like it depends on the audience Well, first of all, like sure some people have runaway heads, but most people don't So you you can't start something hoping that that's going to happen because it probably won't to my aid But it probably won't So you can be like me and latch on the success of others. I mean you could do that as well That's generally what most people do But yeah, it's like, you know, who is the audience that you're attracting What do you know what are their habits? Because people are not all you know an audience is not like an audience member is not an audience member across the board There's no such thing as a turnkey audience. No, not at all And one thing I learned at tech TV was The biggest audience isn't always the best audience Or whatever your monetization strategy is So They all were like, we can't sell the screensavers Even though it's got the biggest audience Because the advertisers we can get don't want to reach the kind of people who watch the screensavers and by kind of people I mean the demographics, you know And and so they were they would always sell. What was it? Um The rotato no the interview show Silicon spin No, not silicon spin. There was big They would always sell big thinkers big thinkers would always be sold out because Everybody wanted to reach the rich people who watch big thinkers But it did it had like very few actual viewers So it always it used to just confuse me. I'm like, so you sell big thinkers, which has two viewers Always but you can't sell the most popular show in the network and listen for me I mean the wild thing is so I did I did like a like a howard stern type show for a while No, obviously we didn't without the sex stuff But we did we did like a like a talk style guy talk style show for a while. I couldn't sell a dime on that show I mean, I couldn't sell that show at all. My number one successful show Still to this day outside of what the tech is this week in radio tech with uh with Kirk Harnack because it's so niche It only caters to radio engineers and that show was sold out. It's been sold out for four years I can't put an ad on it. So it's it's there is something to that But when you're on a cable network, that's you know Trying to survive and the costs are so much, you know, maybe maybe you should lower your cost and try to sell it on the most popular show Well, and that I think that that is a conundrum that a lot of podcast producers and creators have Andrew right is like if you get that niche audience and you're selling at your show, it's like great Okay, we found our people. This is awesome You know, we're delivering something that they want and they're you know, gonna, you know, it's it's it's it's bang for your buck but And if you're independent then you have the right to say this is perfectly fine or I want a bigger audience But for a lot of folks who work for larger companies and I've been through this as well It's like, okay Well, how do we like reach more of a mainstream audience? And that's where it can get weird because then it turns into an editorial conversation Well part of it is that one of the things they did at tech tv was they had to educate Not just the salespeople, but their clients on exactly what the demographics were for the shows on the network And in the end they you know by the time g4 came around and I picked up the the network We were running six to seven different car ads On the network and that was a huge win because car ads are usually one of the biggest Ad buys you get Yeah, and I remember talking to glass beer. It's like it was very methodical They had to go through and explain like no, these aren't just you know The what you consider a you know a guy in his base, you know parents basement working on computers These are individuals who work in it. These are individuals Whose you know average income is anywhere from 60 to 60 plus You know, you you have to bring it out to them one of the things that kind of Uh that was kind of a shift when revision three was picked up by discovery Discovery was that their salespeople were trying to integrate our sales team into their structure And they didn't understand what exactly what the shows Were and what they were doing they came with the mindset Well, we've been selling into tv and this is how we've been doing things for for years So we're just going to work it out this way. It's like no It's it's a it's a different model that doesn't necessarily have a one-to-one translation and well and sales staffs quite often Want to continue to sell to the clients they know how to sell to Absolutely. There's someone very close to me possibly living in this house Who's been and running into that kind of problem at work Where they're like we sell we sell to these clients and they're like we're making new content That will appeal to new clients and it's it's always a struggle. That was the case with buzz out loud, too Where they were we're like, hey, we've got all of these people listening to this show and they're like Yeah, but the people we sell to aren't really interested to like find new people Which is I know it's easier said than done, you know, I mean, you know, just having worked with a lot of our salespeople Um sales is like more than 50 percent relationship, right? You build upon it You know, it's I can totally see it and and especially, you know, it's like asking someone who's only Hung out with you know Groupies and rock bands and stuff and then you're asking them like well I want you to to start mingling with, you know, the symphony audience, you know Pretty much what I do now, right? I'm in marketing and sales for a hospitality group and uh, it's all relationships That's that's that's that's the hunt. That's the point of success is the relationship that you build and people liking you I've always said even with podcasting Um, I did an interview I forgot years ago at one of those expos and they said how do how do you sell your ads? I said to be honest You could get better content somewhere people just like me You know, that's the reality of it There's always somebody that's a little better and somebody that has better production or looks better sounds better Or they're more informed but at the end of the day the relationship that you have with the sales department Or the or the ad agency or even the company it really comes down to your relationship And you know, there's a margin of of of error Where that exists, right? If if your if your show is so poorly performing that you can tell But then there's you know, it's not an exact science So as long as it performs well enough that they can Justify it in the presentation like yeah, we bought ads on this and look and here we can show return Then it really does come down to the tiebreaker and the tiebreaker is the relationship For the record, I have never had a basement But if my mother had a basement, I would live in it Happily And I think the whole basement dweller thing needs to go away because that sounds that sounds real fun to me Yeah, right? You got your own floor your underground probably If I still work in my old place, you could have lived in our basement. We because it had its own bathroom its own entry Yeah Yeah, that I anytime, you know what I hear like, you know, I love an interference basement It's like, okay, I understand that that's supposed to mean like that somebody's like a loser But I'm like that sounds fun. Yeah, I would take that More basement living for all everyone assumes it's an unfinished basement, but it doesn't have to be Put drywall up you can and it's weird because you know in shows like happy day He didn't live in fonds. He didn't live in the basement. He lived above the garage And so it's you know, why is it not like oh is it is above the garage? Is that and greg brady lived in the attic? Yeah, you know, that's 70 show the whole show took place in the basement They're having a great time You know the first girlfriend I had in high school We go watch video tapes in the basement Do you want to come to my basement and watch videos? I would I don't think that was like like, yeah, maybe we'll meet at like the the malt shop or something first Hey, we should say goodbye to the video anyway. So thank you. Andrew. Uh, appreciate it. Thanks for hanging out. Bye guys I appreciate it. Thanks so much Thanks for being on