 Hey everybody, tonight we're debating whether or not sex work is good or bad for society. And we are starting right now with Rachel's opening statement. Thanks so much for being with us, Rachel. The floor is all yours. Thank you, James, for having me on. This is, I think, my third or fourth time being here. So it's great to be back. If we are talking about whether or not sex work is good or bad for society, that's a moral question. So right off the bat, we have to kind of distinguish we're not talking about legality necessarily. We're talking about morality, whether it's good for society. I think that the focus is going to be we don't want to get into a bunch of philosophical and religious arguments because that's not going to be within the scope of what we're trying to do. So we should probably take a look at things like statistics, studies, outcomes, things like that. We can look around the world and see places where sex work is legal, where it is not, and what the implications of those things are so that we can see if there's more sex work, whether legal or not, are there better outcomes if sex work is illegal or there's less of it somewhere. Because of that, then is it good or bad? So that's the position I would take is that it is bad for society as a whole because we have multiple studies, a huge one, which I can drop into the chat or something if you guys want, but it's from Harvard, 2014 massive study where they looked at human trafficking inflows related to that country's sex work trade. So if it was legal and more ubiquitous, the human trafficking inflows were much higher in those countries in places where there is less sex work, where it's not usually legal, there tends to be less human trafficking, less illegal sex trafficking. So the more sex work you have, the more permissible it is, the more legal it is, it's actually worse when the traditional argument is that we just need to take away the stigma, normalize it, make it safe and regulated, and it takes away the problem, but that's not what we see when we actually evaluate the evidence. So that would be my position. You got it. Thank you very much for that opening. And folks, visually, just so you guys know what's going on, Rachel, who you can see on your left, as well as Lab just below her, are taking the generally, you could say, sex work is generally not good for society position. And then on the right side of the screen, Pauly and Ashley are taking the yes position that is generally good for society. So with that, we're gonna kick it over to Lab for her opening as well. Thanks so much for being with us, Lab. The floor is all yours. Thanks. I'm Lab. I'm new into this whole political sphere. I did sex work for six years. I'm 24 and it had like unimaginable consequences on my life and I'm basically like devoting a lot of my platform to let women and young girls or anyone going into sex work, what they're up against and what they could potentially deal with. And everything is basically just like my opinion, obviously. But yeah, I think generally I want to exist and contribute in a world where women are made foreign with purpose and not for purchase. I'm a feminist first and foremost. And I think that, yeah, I think that without even having a moral argument because a moral argument can be made, I think that it's just not like conducive to women's liberation in general is the selling of sex and women's bodies and commodifying them, so. You got it. Thank you for that opening as well. Also, before we kick it over to the generally good position side, want to let you know folks, if you had not noticed in the live chat, I had pinned a comment saying 100% of tonight's super chats are going to the Domestic Violence Action Center as a charity with a great charity watchdog rating. They're linked in the description if you'd like to learn more about them. And 100% of the super chats, as I said, including the 30% that YouTube usually takes is going to that charity. So we're gonna kick it over to Polly, thanks for being with us. The floor is all yours. We can't hear you yet in case you're on mute. I am pro-sex work, of course. I think sex work is real work. The problem with sex work is that the work itself is criminal, which creates unnecessary dangers for both buyer and seller. I think the typical, well, it seems interesting that a conservative person is arguing consequentialist moral philosophy with respect to whether sex work is good or bad. I guess that serves her purpose for this specific issue. However, she is doing something that would be considered wrong in other areas. Like the idea, nobody's for human trafficking. Human trafficking is bad. We should stop human trafficking, particularly sex trafficking, particularly the worst kind of sex trafficking of minors. Nobody's for that. You don't typically make something illegal simply because people illegally traffic off of it. We might have the decriminalization of drugs, for example, if we focused on the trafficking issue. Usually we try to prescribe the things that are wrong with it. Moreover, I'm going to take the position that making sex work illegal is actually pro-patriarchy. It is not liberating to women or to anybody. It is also making sex work illegal. Limits choices that can be made by free people. So there's a freedom argument for it. I just look forward to seeing what other people are saying and I'll respond to it. You got it. Thank you very much for that opening as well, Polly. And we'll get it over to Ashley. Thanks so much for being with us. Ashley, the floor is all yours. Hi, my name is Ashley. I'd like to introduce myself by saying that about three months ago was an incredible super hardcore feminist. And then doing my research into why I was such a hardcore feminist and anti-man, et cetera, I realized that I wasn't as much of a modern day feminist, more of a traditional feminist. Having said that, I like to kind of take a point of view on both sides of the spectrum. Also, I've never been involved in any type of sex work whatsoever. I'm just more, I kind of air more on the side of plain devil's advocate. And I do not agree that sex work is necessarily bad. I agree with Polly's statement. I can correlate it to making drugs illegal and kind of what she was saying with that in sex work. I'm kind of curious, because I've been reading some things about what Rachel said. And it's interesting that her study was from 2014. I think that maybe her and I could have some points of discussion there. But my overall stance is that while I personally may not participate in sex work, I also do not want to impose my beliefs, views, morals or stances on societal appropriation to whether or not sex work is okay versus not okay. You got it. Thank you very much for that opening, Ashley, as well. Well, I'll let you know, folks, if it's your first time here at Modern Day Debate, we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science, religion and politics. We hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you were from. And don't forget to hit that subscribe button as we have plenty more debates and panels coming up. You don't want to miss them. Hit that subscribe button now. And with that, thank you very much to our guests. The floor is all yours for that open dialogue. So I guess I would pose the question of the panel. How is the oppressive nature of sex work? How can you distinguish that from just ordinary capitalism? I think a lot of the arguments I see people make about sex work is that, well, you're induced to do things you might not otherwise like to do with your body for money. That sounds a lot like just a regular job. So how do you distinguish it? Well, I think a major distinguishing feature which maybe Lav can speak to better than I can based on her opening statement is that for one thing, it's not something that ages well, right? So you may have to take a job you don't like when you're young because you're an experienced. You don't have a lot of skills yet, but you can work your way up into things. You can get an education. You can learn skills and you can get yourself a better job you can find something that you do enjoy doing to make money. However, even if sex work is something you like to do when you're young, you age out of it very quickly. That's to me, one of the biggest pitfalls of it, practically speaking. How quickly would you say is very quickly? So nobody should ever be a gymnast. Well, I would never recommend being a gymnast for a career necessarily, no, that's gonna be like a top 0.05% of all gymnasts in the world and you're done with gymnastics. So then after gymnastics and that careers over with and then move on and find new skills. Well, the thing about something like gymnastics is you can coach, you can teach, there's other avenues, but as far as sex work, you could. I think one of the biggest things is safety. So we know that sex work is one of the most dangerous jobs imaginable and there's no option for unionizing and people are actually effectively against unionizing for sex workers because of what that means. So I think that there's a lot, but I think that mostly it's how unsafe it is for women without regulation to be thrown to the wolves, so to speak. Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing is your chance of dying working at Taco Bell is very little and your chance of dying or being raped through this line of work is exponentially higher than any other job available. That's a good point. I mean, that sounds like an argument for decriminalization or legal. Yeah, that's why I don't make that argument because then what everyone always says is, oh, well, we'll just regulate it and make it safer and then it's fine, but I lived in Nevada in Reno for five years where prostitution is legal. We had the Bunny Ranch. I knew some of the girls there. I was doing hair and makeup at the time and got to know a few of them. It is not the glamour and wonderful life that you think it is. There's still a ton of drugs. Who thinks it's glamour and wonderful? Plenty of women. Plenty of women do. Are you kidding me? No, no, no, no, hold on. Hold on. I would like to make it very clear. I don't know how old you guys are. I'm 24. I'm 36. So I'm a Zoomer and I grew into an internet age where only fans thrust upon you the second you turn 18 on TikTok, on Twitter, on everything. How does only fans compare to working at the Bunny Ranch? You're not going to get raped when you're only fan's person, right? But the pipeline into sex work desensitizes you to other forms of sex work. So that's like saying that you smoke weed, then you're going to become a heroin addict. A lot of people do. I'm not saying that only fans. I don't know what you think my argument or my prescription is on that. I'm just saying that if you're so desensitized to commodifying and objectifying your body for financial gain, you're going to be like, OK, well, I am sexed. But that's capitalism. I mean, you're just a cop. Instead of interrupting, just to hear the rest. Lav, go ahead and finish. Yeah, but you're going to be like, yeah, I have sex for free. So I might as well charge, right? That's exactly how I went into it. I was like, I'm a free woman. I'm 18. This is my body. This is empowering. I'm making money from it. I came from very humble beginnings, right? So this is the first time I ever get to see real money. And then I'm like, oh, fuck, this is ideal for me, right? The problem is that then the other things come. But I also think, as far as legalizing it, we actually, like Rachel said earlier, we know that the industry existing in itself, bad people are able to use those laws for the wrong reasons because it exists. What I think is that we should decriminalize it for the workers, but we should criminalize Johns. I think that we should criminalize people paying for it. That's what I think we should do. That's the Nordic model. Yeah, and I can support that argument by saying, pornography is legal. We have a very strictly regulated legal pornography industry, and the horror stories that come out of it would whiten your hair. So legalizing things, destigmatizing things, and regulating things does not take away the nature of that thing, which is inherently exploitative. I think it's also a matter of how used to objectifying women you are also. Because I think if we were to say, oh, if kids wanted to do this, if they thought it was empowering, we should be able to, right? That's ridiculous. Nobody's saying that. Why is that so ridiculous? Look, can I please interject? So I want to hear an argument, because all I've heard so far are arguments to the effect that you're using your body in ways you might not otherwise would have for money. Some people who are already desensitized to the type of work that you would engage in in sex work are more likely to engage in that work, just like anybody may choose a job based on a bunch of choices that they may not like based on something they may otherwise be able to tolerate, right? This is capitalism. This is like free market shit you're talking about. If you want to argue about the problems about capitalism, you can go there, but this is about sex work, which is something that is specific. I want to hear a specific critique that applies to sex work and not just selling your labor, not just wage slavery, for example. And anecdotes aren't going to get you there. Like, old stories are going to get you there. So it is obviously more dangerous. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Flat out, just like with anything, this isn't going to go away. It's not going away. Whether we legalize it and regulate it or we don't, it's going to be there forever. So what is your fucking argument? So first of all, why are you so angry and yelling at everyone? Have you never debated before, calm down. People are also molesting children, and it's never going to stop, right? So we just make it from free for all? Exactly. What? Molesting children? Yeah, that's always been a thing, and it's always going to be a thing. It's always going to be a thing. And opioid addiction has always been a thing, and it's always going to be a thing. Yeah, and we have regulations on it. I have a sister who's an heroin addict. I get opioid addiction. Okay, what about you? You're not used to making arguments, are you? Could you have an argument or are you just going to yell at everyone? You're being very obnoxious. Thank you, Rachel, I appreciate that. I do have an argument. The argument is just like with drugs, it's never going to go away. Yes, you can argue that. You can go down rabbit holes all you want, but the fact is that people want sex, people are going to pay for sex, and women and men are going to sell their bodies for sex. So do you want to regulate it, just like with drugs? Or do you want to sit here and say that just no period end of story, and then we go back to prohibition times? I don't think I know this. You see what I'm saying? It's not going to go away. Has anybody ever tried something like this? Do you want to err on the side of caution? Or do you want to err on the side of just say, no, it's not good, deregulate it? Everything's illegal, period end of story. Also, with sex trafficking, I mean, I've looked up the study you're talking about. You can find statistics for statistics until you're blue in the face. But one thing said that nearly 90% of the federal government's 24 million trafficking provision budget was used to arrest consensual adult sex workers rather than detect traffickers or assist victims. This is in 2020. Who was to say who was the victim, though? So the reason why that argument is worthy of your addressing of it is that your argument was essentially consequentialist. So if a lot of these types of transactions are going to happen between adults, we can just say, kids, that's bad. That's bad, right? These types of transactions are going to happen between adults anyway. Why not make it safe? Exactly. Or try to make it as safe as you can. Well, we're arguing whether or not it's good for society and we can see that to the extent you normalize, legalize, and make these things accessible. But if someone's opinion has you as it is good for society, though, then you do get into that rabbit hole of morality. Yeah, sure. And I will go there if you want to go there. And what we're, Lab and I are both saying. I want to hear what you have to say. Lab and I were both trying to make the point that even if you get into sex work voluntarily, even if you say, yes, I'm using my liberty and freedom to do this for myself, because I think it's going to be good. Very few people come out of this. I just want to make money. Well, yeah, I mean, it'll be. That's the thing. Is what I'm saying is that it lends itself to far bigger problems. It's not just a simple transaction. And if you are somebody that cares about people and cares about society, you look at the entire problem and you see that it lends itself to exploitation. It ends with more human trafficking, more sex trafficking, bigger sex industries in general. And so do you want to encourage? Do you want to encourage making women into commodities? And I think this argument is so fucking moot. I really the whole point is moved because I believe personally that it really does go back to morality from everything you guys are saying, morality. It really does. Yeah, it does. But you can debate that. Which is what you said you weren't going to go into. Well, no, I said I wasn't going to get philosophical. I've been on this channel before. I'm somebody who does a lot of philosophy debates. And when I do that, I kind of lose the whole audience here because they tend to be more empirical and not as deep into like metaphysics and epistemology. Well, everyone's opinion on that can also vary drastically. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. So I'm trying to keep it within the purview of the show and say, look, we can look at what happens when we do this and the outcome is not better. Now, if you want to make a moral argument, then we have to get into how do we know what we ought or not ought to do. And then it becomes philosophical. So then I suppose my argument. I'll go with whatever you guys want to go. I guess my point of view on that is just that I feel like maybe this entire premise is just, to me, it feels like it does all go back to morality, though. Because my stance is that you're not going to make morality. Let's engage with it on a moral theme. OK, all right. So can I just follow up on something Rachel said? You said that I think I've addressed specifically your point about human tracking as a separate issue that's not we're not talking about sex work. Usually you criminalize the thing that you think is wrong. What is it about sex work specifically that if you think that a thinking adult who is exercising freedom and is choosing sex work out of a bunch of options that might not be super appealing in this world, it might not be the only job you do. It might be your part-time gig. What is the greater problem that you were referring to? The greater problem I was referring to is that the nature of sex work itself cannot be separated from the fact that it is exploitative. There is something different about selling your labor as far as I'm going to go and work in an office or I'm going to go with a hammer and nail and build stuff versus I'm going to allow people to. Are you a teenager? Yeah. And you could get into moral arguments about if those things are good or bad too. But sex work for morality. Sex work is specific because you are the product. You're selling your body. And if you have to be such a material reductionist that you believe that your body doesn't matter, your body isn't you, you almost have to think that it's not going to affect the person. Yeah, but that's a story you're telling yourself. So one of the things that a healthy person can choose, I'm sure this is the case, a healthy person can choose that it is less degrading and your body is less invaded in a sense by going into sex work versus working in retail where you're stuck behind a counter or someplace. Hold on a second. Let me finish my statement here. Being spoken to by customers being dehumanized and being paid far less for the privilege to do so. Certainly somebody could make the decision and people have it. People say this all the time. That it's an easier life. It is a less terrible life than doing retail. But that's also a story you're telling yourself. But yeah, this is also for people who are like 5% of people who are able to do it from home or who are safe, privileged, white, rich, able to do it. But for most people who are existing in this sphere, it's incredibly dangerous. There are so many things. But that's a legalization argument once again. Exactly. If you think the making illegal except work is oppressive to the most marginalized, then you shouldn't. I mean, which is by the way the intent of making sex work. I assume that you guys think that men and women should be equal, right? I assume that the entire argument goes down to honestly, whether or not legalizing it is going to be more beneficial or more detrimental to sex workers. That's what I think. Because again, it's not going to go away. It's not going to go away. Just like with the legalization of marijuana, the legalization of certain. I mean, we're even doing psychics. Why make murder illegal? Why do any of these things if it's just going to be? Now you're going down the morality rabbit hole. No, it's not a rabbit hole. It's a legitimate. It is a rabbit hole. No, it's not. It is the logical consequence of the argument you're making. We are making arguments. You can't just pick and choose arbitrarily what applies to what. No, you can't. That's not how you debate. Then don't debate. Then go have a conversation on Facebook. But if you're here, you're trying to make an argument. You're trying to do a debate. And so you have to accept the logical implications of your own argument. How is that on an argument? When you go back to prohibition days, you could do the same thing then. Do you believe that alcohol should be illegal? I believe that sex work is different than alcohol. There are. OK, that again, it just goes down like you said. It doesn't. You can make an argument. You're picking and choosing now. No, it's not arbitrary. No, it's not arbitrary at all. Because there are some things that are better dealt with in different ways, right? There's a vice. How can you take an argument and talk if I could explain? You're picking and going like this. Hold on one second. You're picking and choosing what you think is arbitrary. What we need to do is I'm going to let two people. This is pre-planned, so this is not spontaneous. This is something that I discussed with them earlier in the day. Two people will be joining in the panel in just a moment. However, just want to be sure that a couple of our speakers, for example, Lab, we haven't heard from you for a while. So feel free, Lab, if you have any thoughts before we let these speakers in in just a couple of minutes, the floor is all yours. Thanks. So I think that this is bad because it makes people feel bad. I think we should also think about how this is contributing to the cultural zeitgeist and how we treat and feel about women in general. Because I think that there's a big argument with inside of feminism, how we are purposefully degrading ourselves necessarily to go into work like this. And then it's just adding into the loop and feedback looping on this. This is not women's liberation. This is actually like. I agree with you on that. No, I don't agree with you on that. I want to engage with you on that. Oh, my God, please let me talk for just one second. OK, look, look, you asked me a question. Do I think men and women should be equal? And I said, yes. But we agree that patriarchy exists. Right, right? Yeah, of course. OK, OK, so so you're OK. So so we are your argument, I assume, is the standard like McKinnon type. You know, like boomer argument where you say, because men and women are inherently equal, you're paying to access a woman's body, which is essentially paying to rape them or something like that, right? Because of the inherent difference in in power, right? I mean, I. Yes. Yeah, OK, OK, so so. So it is incumbent upon you if you're going to make that argument then to explain to me why patriarchy with respect to sex work is more oppressive than patriarchy with respect to to virtually anything else. Like sex work is the only place, if I dare say, where a woman or a sex worker could actually paywall sex. Right, you can't really do that any other place. So you can at least be at something for what's that you should be able to paywall it. No, like a woman's body is not like a product. Like a human body is not like a product. Yeah, but I mean, yeah, we should be selling selling people. Yeah, OK, then that's OK. OK, OK, but that's an argument against capitalism again. You have to explain to me why. Sorry, socialist, Polly, but no, no, I know because. Because what about an act? I mean, if I'm buying a medicine, you can't be a masseuse or whatever, because you're using your body to like deliver. No, we're saying. You're going to be a doctor or a surgeon. OK, we don't sell organs, right? So why are we doing this? Why are we selling people's orifices? Why are we selling bodies? What? You're you're doing. We should not sell bodies. We should not sell bodies parts. We should not sell people. Again, morality, morality. OK, this is a moral question. Every year, I know this is your body. I know this is the first time debating, but that's what I know. I know that you keep going to bring that up. But otherwise, I've got to mute everybody. So just a second to restore order. Otherwise, if everybody's speaking over each other, they can't hear anybody. Let's go with Rachel. I think you had a question. So we'll give you a chance to finish that question. And then we'll go to Pauly and then we'll go to Ashley. Yeah, so the difference in all of this, and yes, it is a moral question because this is about what's good, right? It's a moral question inherently. But we can debate moral questions without getting way off into metaphysics. We can keep it relatively practical and relatively within the realm of what people can understand practically. But what we are arguing is that we don't think selling people, their body parts, people in general, their images, their video, their sexuality, things like that. We don't think that that's good for society. We don't think it's good for women. It does. You absolutely can't separate it from the objectification and the exploitation of women around the world or children. If you offer women's bodies as something that can be bought and sold, then you're encouraging buying and selling of women's bodies. That's far different than beer. OK, but it's not buying or selling a body. Every time you have sex with somebody, you get to keep your whole body, right? The question is, what happens in the exchange? Or like the surrounding circumstances before you have sex with somebody, right? It is not. They don't get to keep you, right? That's not what we're doing. That's trafficking. That's different. I know you confuse the two, but that's the beauty of it. It's no different than any sort of service that you do with your body, which is literally almost anything. There's some that's closer to sex work, like acting or being a masseuse, for example, or just being somebody to talk to. I mean, you can't distinguish sex work from really any other kind of work, except for vague virtue signaling as the morality. I just want to wrap it up. I promised Ashley next. So unless Ashley wants to defer to you, Lav, Ashley, if you've got a quick response, then I promise I'll do it. I do not want to defer to her. I want to say that, yes, I have gotten a little bit upset. Yes, this is one of maybe my, this is probably my fourth or fifth debate. Thank you, Rachel, for pointing that out. And I do appreciate that, because I am learning etiquette, and this is a learning experience for me. But I will say that I really do believe that you're wrong when you say that this, you said from the beginning, this isn't an issue of morality. Yet, you keep saying that, that's not what I said. All right, you guys, let's give Ashley a chance to finish. You got about 30 seconds, and we're going to kick it to the lab. You did say that. I can record it and play it back for you later, Sweets. But you did. And every argument you keep coming back to comes down to morality. Then again, you say, well, I'm differentiating between X, Y, and Z. Well, how can you do that? And then where does that take you? It all goes back to your personal decision and choice of what morality is and what you deem or believe to be OK and not OK. How do you say that that's this or that's that? Again, I go back to saying, this isn't going to go away. Then you, I really like Polly's argument when she talks about, well, as a masseuse or anything that you're using your body for to make money, right? You're not actually selling a product, but you are selling yourself. In fact, you are. And then you also compared it to, well, I'm not going to illegally sell my kidneys or my liver or my organs. But yet you say that having sex with someone, you liken it to that. It's akin to selling your fucking kidney. And I just, I don't see the correlation there. Again, I think it just goes back to what you believe is morally right or wrong and what's legal or not legal. Whereas I say, just like with the drug laws, just like with human trafficking, which again, you cited a fucking article from 2014. I found one from 2020 that negates what you said. I mean, come on, come on, dude. No, like this goes back to what your moral compass tells you is right or wrong. I'm saying, again, I've never done sex work. I don't want to because I agree with a lot of the points that you yourself make, but I don't see how it's going to go away and I don't see how you're helping the problem or how at all saying like, it's like teaching, excuse me, it's like teaching abstinence versus teaching contraceptives. It's stupid. Go ahead, Laf. Okay, so I wanted to remind you, Ashley, that the debate isn't what we can do to make sex work go away. Is it good for society? And then I wanted to read a quote by Esperanza Fonseca who is a transgender sex worker feminist. Prostitution has never existed without violence, slavery, patriarchy, and class oppression. Prostitutes experience violence primarily because the relationship between the prostitute and the client is necessarily antagonistic. The session between a prostitute and her buyer is always a power struggle between the man and the woman, the buyer and the bought. Any prostitute knows this intuitively. Clients want us to do more for less money. We want to do less for more money. This isn't dependent on the disposition of the client, the structural positions of the buyer and the bought necessities, these interests. While you can say this antagonism does exist in all labor under capitalism, the difference is that when the power struggle is enacted in such a tangible way during sex, a sex that most in the trade were coerced into by material conditions, sexual violence is a necessary component of the equation. Every interaction as a prostitute is to fight a battle on the terrain of your own body, the prostitute is fighting for her right to bodily autonomy and the client is fighting for his entitlement to her body. And I think that that is something that is really important to speak on when we're talking about, is this good for society? Because when we make... It's a story, okay, so like... We're gonna kick it over. I did promise I'd kick over Rachel next. So Lab, if you give you like maybe 10 more seconds if you had anything else to add, otherwise we'll kick it to Rachel. Yeah, just to wrap it up, yeah. I think that, again, the conversation is like, is it good for society? So like we're not talking about like, is it God in the Christian lens? Is it good in the Christian lens? We're talking about how is this going to affect women in the future, our daughters, our daughters' daughters? What world are we setting up for other women? What are we making people think is okay to treat women? How to treat women? Adding to the culture is like, guys, that's the debate. So this is morality. Like, that's the whole thing is, yeah. It is. Okay, okay, okay, maybe Ashley misses it again. She might have misheard or misunderstood what I said at the beginning. I said this is a moral question. The nature of this debate panel is a moral question. I didn't wanna get deep into metaphysics and epistemology because frankly it's over most people's heads and I just lose them. So I was trying to be, okay. If you know a lot about philosophy then you can just school me on it then. If you're gonna sit there and laugh like you do know about metaphysics and epistemology. I just kind of have a feeling you don't. I just kind of have a feeling that you're real fully yourself, sweetheart. No, I'm just, I'm somebody who's experienced in doing this and I'm trained in philosophy and debate. So, but on a panel like this, I'm not going to try to like sit here and do metaphysics because you're just gonna stare at me with a blank look on your face. So I'm trying to keep it within the realm of something. You're also very presumptuous and full of yourself. But you should brush your hair and put a bra on but let's get back to the debate, shall we? We have a bra on. Are you body shaming me, sweetheart? Don't call me sweetheart. Let's not get into it. Let's do the debate. Don't excuse me of not wearing a bra. Men are watching and they're watching this and they're saying hell yeah, these women are fucking ripping each other apart just like they want us to. Let's not give them more fuel. Speaking of men, one interesting question that I have because don't get me wrong. I understand that you could say, well, how about let me ask you, what do you all think in terms of sex work it seems probably intuitive and not? I do want to say I like that Rachel noticed my boobs. Thank you, Rachel. She's the least. Seems pretty intuitive that probably women are, I mean, we'll all ask you guys. Is it more likely that women or men are going to get hurt potentially in sex work if anybody is on average? Would everybody agree that it's women? Absolutely. Okay, she got you. I think that we would need, I think statistically probably, but I think that we would actually have to look into the transgender and the homosexual side of things when it comes to sex work. And I think that we would need that point of view. I don't feel comfortable speaking on that platform personally. Gotcha, anybody else? Okay, well, I think it's, well, I think the world is more unsafe for women and sex work without the, as a criminal act is specifically unsafe, but there are a lot of unsafe jobs that's for, there just are. Gotcha. Okay. But to this degree, absolutely not. I don't know people do sign up for the military. This is more dangerous than the military. This is like 20 times more dangerous than logging, which is the most dangerous job. Well, I would like to see statistics on that. But the fact that you even have to is insane. Do you know how many prostitutes die like a year? Sure, sure, but... I think their life expectancy is very low. It's like 30. Do you watch a lot of serial killer documentaries? It's like 30. This sounds like stories that you hear people say, like at the last data I saw was nothing like that. Like, I happen to look even as a criminal act, sex work is unsafe, unreasonably unsafe, because the victim can never call the police. However, even in its unsafe state, there are, of course, plenty of jobs that are legal. Well, also because the man can kill a woman with their bare hands. Okay, yes, which is why it should be decriminalized. Well, that's actually an argument for legalization, because if you want to be able to watch... But that's an argument against marriage, too, right? So like, I guess... No, it's a different thing. You don't have to dehumanize your wife to marry her. Well, do you think, I mean, how many women die from intimate partner violence, right? Like, be careful why you argue, because you're implicating large segments of society that, to be fair, deserve to be implicated, but that is not a sex work argument. That's a structural argument. Well, Polly, I've got some facts for you that might help. Hold on a second. Sure. Covers the whole, all of society. Men are always going to be at an advantage in any situation over a woman. The one place that I can say that people, the people involved know a hell of a lot about the nuance of consent is in sex work. Hold on, hold on. Shit, just let me finish, okay? So if you listen to like, you know, like red pill guys talking about how much they hate women, the thing they do not, they will say over and over again, the one power that women in society have over men is the withholding of sex. 100%. Paywalling it is one way that we capitalize 100% on that specific, on that one area that we have at least a tiny little bit of bargaining power. I mean, we have Lab, a chance to respond. This I do know a lot about. I like it. It looks like, I think Lab had something that she wanted to add, but before I do, I'm going to add those two people who I had mentioned who will jump in the panel as well. And of course, we'll give you a chance to respond first Lab, so please go ahead. This is just one of my notes. So a man can make himself completely vulnerable while paying a sex worker, but because he's the one with the money, he's always going to be in control because men have power over women in every sector of society. It's close to impossible for him to ever truly be powerless around a woman and definitely not a paid sexual encounter. A man in this position is very plainly doing what men have done to women for at least the last century, asking a woman to strip herself of her personhood, even her own personal sexuality for his pleasure. A man asking a woman or telling her to sublimate herself to just a body in exchange for money in the act itself, he degrades her. There is no other job that's intimate. It's only degrading if it degrades you, if you allow it to again, Marilyn. So this is like a cultural thing, the act of buying sex, women do not buy sex at this rate from men, like they don't and they will never. Like I said, this is the one area. One person at a time. Okay, sorry. This is not power, that's not power. Your personal empowerment, like, oh, he has to pay me. The act that he even thinks that he can pay you for your body is degrading. That is disgusting. You're a body. Your opinion. Yeah, well, if you guys can't take, that's again an anti-capitalist argument. Let's hear it, because Alex just jumped in, let's hear it, Alex, what have you got? Do you want to remind you or I should say update you, given that Alex and Stardust just entered, Alex is generally for the idea of sex work being beneficial for society, who is on the right side of the screen in the middle and then Stardust just below me and in the middle, is actually generally of the opinion that sex work is doing more harm than good currently. But go ahead, Alex. Yeah, so I was just going to respond to what Lavender was saying. So that is your opinion that's degrading. I've interviewed multiple porn stars on my channel and they all seem to feel that it's actually quite empowering. Well, to some people it's degrading. To some people, well, okay, but that's like me saying. It's called empowerment, it's called empowerment. Okay. Let's let him talk, sweetie. It's all subjective. It comes down to some people think that this is good, some people think that's bad. So this is your opinion that's degrading and you're entitled to your opinion. Now I've been following this dream as I was kind of driving today and I just kind of want to start off by clarifying the positions, because a lot of people are saying that sex work isn't good. But my question is this, do you think it should be outlawed? I want to see kind of where everyone stands on this. I think it should be based on the fact that to the extent we legalize it, we see a massive inflow in human trafficking and sex trafficking in those places. So you think it should be illegal, right? Illegal, yes. I don't think it should be illegal to sell. I think it should be illegal to buy. Wouldn't that kind of create a messed up market where you have one part of the act? Like I have a store, I sell nails. It's legal for me to sell nails but it's not legal to buy nails. The problem is that if it's a good interaction, then nothing happens because of a prostitute is going to be making money and she's not going to go to the police and be like, this happened to me. What then happens is if she's like abused during that act, she can go to the police and they will actually care because it's illegal. Which is not happening now. Okay, I have something that I think we should add just to clarify and make this a little easier for everybody since we keep saying, well, that's just your opinion. That's just your opinion. So a couple of quick facts. That was just me saying that, a couple of quick facts. The average age that women around the world enter into prostitution is 14. It is still one of the most dangerous things. That's their legal prostitution. Hey, I mean, that's the problem with the jail. There's only legal prostitution in a couple of places. Go ahead. The average age that anyone enters this business is 14. 204 out of every 100,000 prostitutes in the United States die every year. It's one of the highest death rates for any occupation that you can do. And we know that there's higher sex trafficking, higher human trafficking, just like I said, we know that it lends to exploitation and it creates bigger markets. That's how things work. So- Is that legal or illegal? I'm just curious back to Alex's question. Wait, are you asking- Are you asking- At the jail? At the jail? At the jail? At the jail? You know, that's one of the virtues- This is in the United States and the only place in the United States that it's fully legal is- Is the body roll is, right. Certain counties in Nevada. Right, but the problem is you can't tell from data like that. Exactly. Which is why it's a miscellany. You can't tell which of that is like two consenting adults and which is trafficking and which is, you know, it's not super useful. I do understand that it is dangerous when it is done legally. I don't think that that's good. I'm not for sex trafficking. I understand why you wanna keep making it seem like my argument is somehow related to sex trafficking. But it's not what you're arguing is that there is somehow an effect of sex work that relates to sex trafficking. But however, that's an argument against or for the enforcement of sex trafficking laws. Right, it's- You know, you don't- You're already in for sex trafficking laws. It's not a problem that we don't enforce them. Or we don't have- We should decriminalize all drugs then, you know, like because the trafficking of drugs is inherently linked in your mind or the trafficking of anything that's illegal is inherently linked in your mind such that we have to decide public policy based on whether the trafficking of it goes up or down. Yes, and if we saw that making drugs illegal or making them legal resulted in more drug use then I would definitely argue that it should be illegal. Yeah. So according to this logic, Rachel, do you remember prohibition when they made alcohol illegal? Did that cause more illegal activities, more drinking, more everything? The answer is yes. We all knew that was a horrible consequence. Yeah, but that's not the case. That's not the case with other things that we prohibit. There are many things we prohibit by law and it results in a reduction in that thing. Like what? Like hard drug use. When Portugal first decriminalized hard drugs, everybody thought it was a smashing success, but now 20 years later, we can see that they have massive problems that didn't work out as well as they thought. We see that in places that were legalized were one of their... Do you know the statistics on that, Rachel? Not off the top of my head, but I could pull them up. They've had a worse opioid epidemic. They're since... Then we do now. Yeah, and in places where we have safe needle programs there tends to be widespread drug use, more drug use than in places where you don't have that. So to the extent that we can... Are you missing that off the top of your head too? So I think we're conflating. We're conflating. We want to take it over to one sec. Pardon me, but I do want to do this just because Stardust hasn't gotten to speak yet. In particular, for this topic, especially that we're currently on, Stardust, any thoughts? Yeah, so I want to make it clear that I'm pro-legalization of sex work for the purpose of regulation, but when we look at sex work as a whole, I think sex work as it's practiced today, whether it's legal or illegal is largely forced or coercive. This idea that there is a clear line between consenting sex work and non-consenting sex work is a complete myth. There are plenty of people who enter sex work who are coerced into it, who continue to participate in sex work because it's what they know and they don't know what else to go into. So this idea that we are, I'm not willing, I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to completely rule out all of the sex workers that are trafficked because they were not consenting. There are tons of sex workers who are coerced into it, who we don't know, it's a gray area. So no, I'm not willing to rule out this entire group of people just because they're considered trafficked, but they're for some reason not considered sex workers. I consider them sex workers. Globally, on a global scale, the ability to enter sex work and view it as empowering is a place of privilege. If you are able to enter sex work and view it as empowering, you are in a position of privilege. The average person who's into sex work is not entering it from a place of empowerment. They're usually entering it from a place of desperation. Now, if there are people, I don't know why you have to vocalize, but... Sorry, I just, you're speaking my language. Okay, so whenever, so if there were more people who were in sex work, who were truly seeking it out because they themselves were choosing it, they themselves are empowered by it, and they were entering safe spaces to practice sex work, I think that would be fine, but I think it would be a very small amount of people who would do it, I think it would be a very, very small minority of people, and I think that even looking at the porn industry, you can look at people who've entered the porn industry consenting, fully consenting, and then enter situations where they were agreeing to one thing in their contract, and they are pressured on the spot to participate in acts that they did not initially agree to, and because they're in the spot and because there's the risk of getting blacklisted within that industry, they feel like they are forced to do that. There is a great interview with Lana Rhodes where she talks about how they sprung a situation on her where she had to do something that she didn't want to and she's in tears basically describing it. So I think it's a very complicated issue. I think legalization is the way, but I think there are a lot of hiccups to get over it. There are a lot of things that we need to address within the porn industry, within the sex industry, when it comes to the ways that people are taken advantage of and how often is it really that people are entering it, truly consenting to it? Well, nobody consents to any job in a certain respect. Jesus Christ. Hold on, hold on, hold on, let's, Jesus Christ. Just hold on a second. I want to put this in perspective. What's going to be correct? However, however, what about the sex worker that does sex work on the side? Because it is, you know, the least horrible option. Like it doesn't have to feel empowered, it doesn't feel great, but it's better than the other, maybe perhaps more legal alternatives that might be more degrading. What does least horrible mean? It means the least horrible. There's a lot of shitty jobs out there. Like say I could go into sex work or I could go to war or I could go, or I could work- Shuttle dog shit for a living all day long. Yeah, I could work burgers for like 40 hours a week and make half of what I- If you say sex work is less horrible than flipping burgers. I think it's more mentally. Yeah, I think mentally, it's definitely more horrible than flipping burgers, yeah. I would say, then there's another thing- Can't people say, hold on a second, can't people say, you had a lot of time to talk. Can't people say for themselves and have you not tell them that they're lying? Say, look, I flip burgers, I've done sex work. I think I'd rather do sex work than flip burgers for- For five years I said that same thing, and then it caught up to me. For five years I said that exact same thing. What you're describing is- I didn't get burned out. I was sublimating my own feelings because I was making so much money, it became a pipeline. I was like, I should just shut the fuck up, everything's fine, I don't have to flip burgers. How much money did you make? In my first year, I made $300,000. It just sounds like it wasn't for you, which is- Wait, hold on, hold on. There's a lot of women that it's not for who end up going into it because it's not an easy choice. I wouldn't do $300,000. Pete, okay, let Lav fit and then we'll come over to you. It's not as easy of a choice that it's like what ice cream flavor am I choosing, right? It's a choice that I was homeless when I started. I had been groomed, I had been an attractive teenager, I had been groomed into sex work. This is not a choice that I was just like, yep, think I'm gonna go into this. It was something that I was kind of like in a way like forced into, you know, I have agency, right? I would have made the homeless then. I feel like most of the women in the industry were groomed into it. I'm curious, honestly. It's impossible to say something like most, but I think that most women are told that it's not going to like harm you in the way that it does mentally. I think that a lot of people don't talk about that. Sure, yeah. They're offering only fans classes now. Like how to like, yes. And there's only fans classes, there's also like a referral program. Like it's fucking insane what's going on around us. Like it's for young women. Again, yes. Yeah, so it's being groomed into sex works bad. Nobody thinks that's good. However, it seems like it's not just super offering somebody $300,000 to do something and then only explaining half of the story is going to be inherently misleading. Like I would degrade myself for $300,000 in ways I probably couldn't even imagine. I would feel bad about it later, but $300,000 is $300,000. I think we should teach women how to have self-esteem. I am just fucking Christ. $300,000 is $300,000 and I wouldn't have to get a therapist or something, but I'd have 300 motherfucking thousand dollars. You're pro capitalism. Well, no, no. We have to- No, so you're pro capitalism. You're pro-sublimating yourself for money. I thought you were getting- I'm pro-reality because I know whatever job I take, I'm gonna have to do that. Wait, so if you're pro-reality- It seems like you have a weak argument. We won't let me finish what I'm talking about. Is that what it seems like? Okay, it does seem very much like that because who are basically telling one story after another story, after another story? I'm responding with actual like- No, Polly. I've yet to hear any actual- You haven't made an argument. And I'm trying to put an argument- This is anecdotal, I guess I wanna go. I'm trying to put this into perspective. I actually think Polly makes some really wonderful arguments earlier. We'll give you a chance to make a pithy case, Polly. Go ahead. Okay, all right. So I already lost track of where I was, but let me say this. Every job is going to- If you don't take a job in our system, you will be homeless and you will die, right? So the question is, every job is going to be coerced upon you to some extent. And the more money they offer you, God knows I've been in an investment banker, right? They paid me your fucking money. I felt degraded the whole time, right? It was a lot of money though, so I did it. I felt bad, I worked 80 hours a week. It was fucking hell, but I did it anyway. And I didn't feel good about it. That's every job. So do I think that some women can exist in this space and feel good about it? Absolutely. The problem is that there are plenty of women like me who think they can and aren't able to, right? So I'm not saying- I've never said, I agree with Stardust and that I think it should be legalized. So I think that there should be a workers union. I don't think that- That would look great. And no, but I think that we need to talk, when we're talking about like, this is empowerment, this is like awesome. We need to talk about the realities that is happening is that it's like not empowerment. Personal empowerment does not mean liberation. And there's so many pitfalls as to like, there should be so many safety nets put in place so that women don't have to do things like sex work, right? So it shouldn't be like, oh, sex work should be a fine option. Like, why don't we talk about like- But it's not only to feed the society, it's never going to be something. I do wanna just because Stardust has had her hand up. Go ahead, Stardust. Could I go up for that one? Yeah. Sure. So I just wanna say like, we can make these arguments that everything is coercive to a point, but I feel like that actually really undermines and honestly is kind of disrespectful for people who are coerced into sex work. I think it's a really, really disrespectful argument. I don't think that you can... So while I think sex work is work for some people and it can be something that some people choose, although a very, very small group of people who are uniquely fit to it, I think that for the vast majority of people, sex work is unlike any other work that you will ever do. I would liken it much more to somebody who is their main product is their body, right? For example, people who are pro athletes, right? And you know that pro athletes, their bodies get destroyed after being in their career for a while, same thing with porn stars. Depending on the type of porn that you do, you're destroying your body after a certain point. So this idea that sex work is somehow similar to any type of work. One, I don't agree with it. Two, I think it's disrespectful to sex workers who actually choose that field. And I think it's disrespectful to people who are coerced into that field. And so I think that we need to be realistic about this. Yes, I think people should be able to have the ability to choose the field that they want to go into, especially if they really do love the sex work field, there are plenty of people who need that. Of course, like geriatric old people who can't, who need specialized sex therapy and stuff like that. But this idea that we're just sugarcoating it and saying it's empowering and that anybody gets coerced at any job. Yes, a lot of jobs are coercive, but there is a uniqueness to sex work that I'm not willing to not give to that. There's something unique. You say, Mari. And then we'll come to you, Ashley. Okay, so I actually kind of like the analogy that Stardust made that it's like being an athlete. porn stars quite often call themselves sexual athletes. And that kind of makes sense. Yes, it takes a toll on your body. It's not for everyone. However, at the same time, we allow people to be athletes, right? So the same thing. But it seems like pretty much everyone on the panel with the exception of Rachel thinks that sex work should be legal. So I wanna first just kind of, I guess like, see if I can nudge Rachel's position before we move on to the ethics of it. Rachel, do you think that there's gonna be, there's more likely there will be like shady legal activity, like trafficking and like underage type of stuff and coercion, if it's legal or illegal? We have a giant comprehensive study from Harvard from, yes, Ashley, it's from 2014. That's only six years ago, seven years ago, whatever. That shows that around the world in places where they legalize prostitution, Sweden is one of the things that they highlight in this study that to the extent they legalize prostitution, it didn't seem to matter what type or anything like that. But to the extent that they legalize and normalize it, they see a greater inflow of human trafficking and exploitation in general, meaning underage kids, adults, everybody all across the war. So it's like you're either saying human beings are something that should be bought and sold and are a commodity, a sexual commodity, which like Stardust said is different. That is different than, okay, I'm gonna build, I'm gonna be somebody who lifts heavy stuff all day and I'm gonna have a bad back when I'm 50. It's very different to when you look at what happens to sex workers. Their life expectancy is far shorter. They're more likely than any other segment of society to be a victim of violent crime. They're often real. Yes, or to get sick or mentally ill or to commit suicide or to have addiction problems. It's very weird that to me also that only the two biological males on the panel are kind of arguing that this is just a transaction, right? It's just a transaction. You're just, I'm just giving you money and you're giving me pussy or whatever it is, right? Like it's biological males. We're always there to turfs, you know? They're always there to raise their leg. No, but I think that there is something there. I think that there's a unique experience that a woman grows up with as a girl. There's a difference, biologically. Wait a second. You just told me. I'm just going to get my friends. Guys, I am staying out of this one. Wait, hold on. I think that trans women suffer from patriarchy also because they look like females or because of their adjacency to females, but there is a very unique experience that a biological woman has in regards to her own body. Like that is just absolutely true. Let's get Pauli in and then we'll go back to Alex. Okay, okay, okay. How is a person who is assigned female at birth who engages in sex work, somehow has a different bodily experience than somebody who's assigned male at birth who engages? Well, because I think your body is commodified the second you fucking out of, you come out of a vagina. Like if you're a woman, you are like a, you have to like fend yourself off from like, are we going to start courting the Bible now? Well, no, no, no, if I can, if I can, if I can, I think there's a middle ground here, right? I think that I would never, I would never like delegitimize the trans woman experience, right? Of course not. But I think that there is, when you go through puberty as a biological female, there is a very traumatic experience. I remember like the first time ever being when you're really young and you're getting first male attention. I remember one of my earliest experiences of getting male attention was when I turned somebody down and they told me that I was so ugly that the only way that anybody would ever talk to me or ever like be with me is with a bag over my head. And I was like 11 or 12. So growing up as a woman and growing up as a woman, I think that you look at media, you look at the way that your parents even raised you, your parents raised you to be like, for me, my parents raised me to be, whether my mom was a staunch feminist and still there are like these societal pressures that they put on you as a woman to be people pleasers, to do anything possible to not disagree with somebody, to not get into a fight with somebody. And that's something I really had to work on as an adult to kind of like get out of. So I do think that there's a uniquely traumatizing experience growing up as a female. I don't think that you could say that though. I get uniquely yes, because you're born. So it'd be super good if you were born. But I don't think that you can tell me. I'll give you a chance to respond to Ashleigh and Pauly. I don't want to be able to respond to the question. I can't understand what anybody's saying. Yeah, I'm trying to talk. So we'll give you a chance to respond to Ashleigh and Pauly, but then it does, you have to kind of maybe draw together the threads of this and wrap it up so that we can get back to the main topic of whether or not sex work is dangerous. So go ahead, Ashleigh, and then we'll give you a chance, Pauly, and then we've got to go back. Basically, I just think I just don't agree with being able to. Again, I'm very, very staunch on I'm not going to speak on the platform of which I am not experienced. I do have a transgender nephew and that just everything that's been said in the last five minutes makes me cry. So I just don't think that any of us can speak on that that are born cis female. I just think that you guys took this to a level that it's not supposed to be like the host said. Let's get back to the top. This is a virtue signal. Shut up. Sorry, if I get triggered. Pauly, do you have any last thoughts? Because I want to give you the last few minutes. I want to clarify really quick. Shut up for a second. Everything always goes to transphobia, no matter what. Oh, Jesus Christ. Everything's about you. No, it's not. I'm not transphobic. I just mean before we go, I want to go on topic. We do have to jump back to this. So I want to remind everybody out there, no matter how far politically left or politically right, you are Biden backer, Trump supporter, you name it, trans, white, black, everybody, we hope you feel welcome, no matter who you are, we're going to kick it over to Alex in terms of bringing it right back to the topic of hand. Go ahead. Can I clarify? If you can take eight seconds, Stardust. Yeah, it'll be really quick. OK, so again, I don't want to make the argument that I don't agree with this argument that, oh, it's the biological men on this panel making this argument. I don't want to make that argument. I think that people, regardless of whatever biology you have, your opinion is entitled to whatever opinion you have. I was just making the argument that possibly that being a biological female from birth, it can be a traumatizing experience on its own. However, I would not invalidate the trans-female experience because as a trans woman, as soon as you become a trans woman, you inherit all of the same discriminations as a cis woman would. It's terrible before that, too. Can we just please move on? Thank you. You know what I'm saying? Thank you, Polly. Thank you, Polly. I'll return it back. And this is just going to be a two-part thing that I want to do. I'm going to return this back. So Rachel, the argument you're making is basically, well, when it's legal, that has more consequence, right? So I'm going to ask you a question. If I could show you data that suggests that by making it illegal, the consequences of legal activity are worse. Would you be willing to change your position? No, because that's just one facet of my argument. So I have another whole entire foundation for this, which is that I don't take this materialist view that human beings are just sacks of meat. We just saw Smashley get very upset because she felt somebody was discriminating against it. She's been grating me twice now. It's your name. It says your name right there. It says Smashley. I didn't put it there. You put it there. But I mean, you know, whatever. So Rachel, if I showed you data, like clear-cut data, that suggested that making this legal makes the crime a lot lower, that would not budge your position at all. So Alex, I have a question. I have a question for you, Alex. No, because I think that it's inherently morally wrong to commodify the sexuality of human beings. It's... OK, so then you're putting this on because you don't really care about it that much, right? Because you're saying that... No, I can make more than one argument. I can make more than one argument. There's that, but I also, Alex, so we know that, like, with the rise of, like, Pornhub and Red Tube, since, like, making, like, legalizing, like, porn and free porn, there's been, like, way more leeway for, like, a child pornography to exist and also revenge porn to exist, just by nature of, like, making it more accessible and making it, like, easier to access. So, like, it's... To make the argument that less crime or less people will be abused if we make it just, like, a free-for-all is insane. OK, well, I'm gonna read a quote from Human Rights Watch. It's an article why sex work should be the criminalized. It's a very short quote. Criminalization exposes sex workers to abuse and exploitation by law enforcement officials such as police officers. Human rights such as documented that in criminalized environments, police officers harass sex workers, extort bribes, and physically and verbally abuse sex workers or even rape or course of them sex from them. Human Rights Watch has consistently found in research across various countries that criminalization makes sex workers more vulnerable to violence, including rape, assault, and murder by attackers who see sex workers as easy targets because they're stigmatized and unlikely to receive help from the police. Criminalization may also force sex workers to work in unsafe locations to avoid the police. So, I mean, like, I don't know how you can just, like, totally ignore that. It's on the Human Rights Watch. So, I don't think that Rachel wants to... I mean, I don't want to put words in Rachel's mouth, but I think that decriminalizing it for, like, the women or the victims being trafficked is probably what she agrees with. And then also, like, decriminalize... Like, I don't think that she thinks that all these women who are prostitutes should be, like, in jail, right? Well, she said it should be illegal, so she wants to clarify her position. So it should be illegal to, like, buy sex, not to sell sex. That's, like... Well, what's what Rachel clarified her position? Well, that's what Canada tries to do. Canada tries to make it so that the purchase of the sex is illegal, but that selling it isn't. And it's had, like, very mixed results because it's like... It gets very sticky legally. But when we're talking about whether something is good or bad for society, I think that if we're gonna sit here and say we care about people, I don't... I know Alex will find, like, the five people, the five women on planet Earth who really insist that it was, like, just super good for them to be prostitutes or sex workers. People find them. But, what? No, I'm just saying that's... Like, the best of a bunch of bad options. No, you're lying. That was funny, Rachel. Wait, I'm just confused because when I say that I have, like, an awful experience, no one gives it merit. No, they don't care. But you give way more merit to people than that. Well, somebody might like it, though. So what if somebody else likes it? I still want to clarify Rachel's position. So you think this should be completely illegal, then, right? You're not changing your position. I do think it should be completely illegal, but I am not saying there wouldn't be some consequences to that, but I think that overall, it would be far better situation. I think that when we are talking about whether we should promote something or not, like, Alex, you weren't here for the very beginning. I said, this isn't really about legality because we're talking about whether it's good for society or not, right? So the legality question is kind of a sidebar. We're saying, is sex work good for society? And I'm saying, no, society is better when we respect people as human beings and treat them as human beings, not commodities. And when we... Do you have a legitimate question for you, Rachel? When we treat women as... Sure. Society would be better if people didn't drink, but I don't think alcohol should be... Well, we also have to talk about why there is a demand for this. Yeah, that's true. Sure, we can do that, but just to kind of, like, one last thing on this position, Rachel, okay, fine. But, like, so how would you account for everything I just read from a human rights watch? Like, I'm being a direct quote that studies say that's a lot safer for the sex workers than the one else present. Yeah, they say it's safer for the... No, they say it's safer for the sex workers. First of all, there's a big problem with human rights watch. I've done a lot of study on that organization. It's extremely suspicious. There's a lot of feminists who are against what human rights watch is saying, and they say that the reason they're putting this out there is because they want to eventually legalize human trafficking altogether. There's a small movement within human rights watch that feels like you could just de-stigmatize by completely making human trafficking legal. Do you have any evidence for this pretty strong problem? Well, I could get it later, but these are things that, like, I have in research folders that I would have to dig out for you and stuff. I'm just saying, like, that organization is a little bit suspicious in and of itself, but we still can't say, okay, look, it's kind of like when your parents come to you and go, look, if you want to try drugs, why don't you tell me and I'll get the drugs and we'll do them together in a safe environment and that'll be better. And it's like, why not just tell the kid, look, I really love you. I don't want you to do drugs. I feel like that would be bad for you, right? Abstinence versus... Well, we have this... No, this is a false premise that you all have based on this liberal imperium where it's like, oh, if we just permit everything and make it legal, then there's no problems, right? The only problem is the stigma, the only problem is the criminality of it and that if we just decriminalize and destigmatize everything, it makes it okay and it makes it good for everyone. That is not true. I'd like to get back to... I really would like to ask you my question, Rachel. Can I have a one last question for her? May I? If I can... James, I'll let you decide what you want to say. Thank you. Whenever you talk about these studies and I'm not going to quote the year or anything like that, but I'm genuinely curious, really. When you talk about these studies in other countries where it has become legalized and the statistics that show the repercussions for that, correct? I want to know, like, how do you think, though, that that would compare to America? Because you're talking about other countries, right? Do you feel like that would directly correlate to our values, moral standards, laws, everything here in America? Well, since the country they cited most was Sweden because it had the most dramatic result. I would say yes because Sweden is a fairly liberal democratic, you know, Northern European nation, so it's gonna be somewhat similar. Whereas if you look at places like Thailand and Cambodia where they have some of the highest rates of sex working in the world. That's what I was wondering. It's a little bit different. And they have a sex tourism industry there, which is horrific and terribly exploitative of children. And it's because of the wars that happened there. They left a ton of widows and single moms and orphans there. And so, guess what? Spraying up a sex industry. Not because everybody was like, you know what? I really don't want to flip burgers. I'd rather have sex for a living and make way more money. So I don't think they have the opportunity to flip burgers. I want to know why you want to give away my right to grade myself for $300,000. I want to give Alex and Stardust Chance because they've both been waiting patiently with their hands up. Go ahead, Alex, and then start us. Okay, thank you. Rachel, okay, you're saying that you don't really trust Human Rights Watch. Do you trust Amnesty International? No, absolutely not. You don't trust Amnesty International? No, if you look into the founding of that organization, it's oftentimes the people who are saving everyone from things are the people who are doing the things. Yeah, sorry that you asked me my opinion. But like, who do you trust? Like, I'm not trying to be condescending. Like, who do you trust? Like, what are some sources that would be acceptable to you? It's hard to find sources on this because it's an illegal trade also. Yes, I think statistics are more reliable than statements from organizations that have an agenda for one thing. So like if you, but like Labrador said, it's very hard to get accurate statistics. So you rely on, you know, who you really trust, who's not working. No, I'm not making an appeal to authority here. So I'm not saying because this institution or this organization or I'm not sitting here going, well, the FBI says this, therefore we should do that. I'm saying my life. How many people use drugs? Really, there's no way to. But the problem with this logic, Rachel, is that you cited a source from Harvard and then you're like, OK, let's take this source. And then when I'm giving you. I can respond to the source from Harvard. I can respond to the source from Harvard. Artists have been waiting. OK, so so I think I can respond to the source from Harvard. I've seen it. I I definitely only see the concerns that Rachel has with it. And I myself was I was concerned when I saw that and was like very frankly with you guys. I was very blackpilled about it. But after like looking into it some more, there are multiple explanations as to why this phenomenon happens. Right. The countries that have better legal systems for prostitutes and for sex workers tend to have just more more sex workers migrate there overall. Right. So now you've got. So yes, while legalization does lead to more criminal, you know, trafficking and things like that. We're we're not taking the account that there are people going moving from countries where they can they practice this unsafely to now a country where they can practice it safely. And even the conclusion from the from the Harvard paper was was not super. It seemed like they were not super convinced by the result. It says the likely negative consequences of legalized prostitution on a country's inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favor of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking. However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalization of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes, at least those legally employed if prostitution is legalized. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky freedom of choice issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services. A full evaluation of the costs and benefits as well as of the broader merits of prohibiting prostitution is beyond the scope of the present article. OK, so so here's one more thing that we should think about, guys, is we're talking about making it safer. We're talking about safer sex work, right? Left or no trees with me that that's extremely tricky to do. How are you going to make sure that once the people end up so like there's another legalizing or indoor prostitutes are actually less safe than street workers? And that's because once you get somebody in a private hotel room, house, whatever it is, who's there to regulate? Who's there to make sure it's safe? Who's there to make sure that the transaction happens as it was agreed? Nobody. It's just power at that point. So there really is no idea that we can make it safe is kind of a lie. It's really kind of a myth. It's just not a matter of making it perfectly safe. It's making it safer. Common sense would follow that if you legalize something and you regulated and you have government oversight, they become safer than if it's illegal. You can see that with literally any industry like alcohol. When it was when it was illegal, there was all this moonshine, people putting all kinds of crap in it and people were dying. Once it becomes legal, right? Yes, there's still people who have been drinking and still people who are drinking and driving. And yes, those problems still exist, but safer because the government is regulated. Our medical industry is highly, highly, highly regulated. And medical mistakes are the third leading cause of death. So regulating. So we should get it legalized. And how many how many of us fix the problem? It's like a whole set of medical mistakes. So there we are regulated and have surgeons. All right, still. OK, Alex, you give me a chance. Then Ashley Short and Pithy one lab. Did you anything we haven't heard from you for a while? I could probably make something going on. First of all, just a quick response to that, not that it's relevant to the debate, Rachel, but that statistic is highly misleading. That was like rebuck many years later. But let's just assume that it's true. The alternative, making medicine illegal will make matters a lot more and there will be a lot more deaths from medicine being no practice. It's the same exact logic here, right? So I guess my question to you, what kind of data would it take from what kind of organization to get you to budge your opinion on this and think, OK, maybe it will be safer if it becomes legalized? Because if you follow common sense, then it suggests that things become safer once they're regulated and legal. But if you follow the studies that I gave, it's the same thing. So what would it take for you to budge your position on this? Well, my main concern at the outset of this and my opening statement was not safety. I'm not saying that's not a concern. It certainly is. My overall concern is that the entire idea of making women something you can buy is what I have a problem with. And even if women say they're voluntarily doing that, like Lav has pointed out a million times, there are so many pressures, so many social pressures, societal pressures. If you create that market, there will be women who will enter it going, yeah, I'm consenting to this and it's not really like that. It doesn't really end up that way and it ends up being very bad for them. So there's people who say that, you know, they're doing all kinds of things that are bad for them voluntarily and that it's fine, but that might not be true. So I'm just saying- But don't you think adults have the right to make up their own decisions? Sure, but it's about informed consent. So it's about informed consent and what women are not getting is informed consent when they enter sex questions. Yeah, I'm all for having more PSAs and like more information. But the problem is that when I even say that I had a negative experience, people like Polly are like, okay, but what about the positive experiences? Far more people have positive experiences. Like the problem is that I get shut down every time I'm like, this fucking ruined my life. Or people are like, I would do a lot for $300,000. What a spit in my face that I made as much money as I did and none of it was fucking worth it because I'm a human and money shouldn't fucking matter. Right? Well, give you a chance, Alex, to start that. When you move the conversation to places like that that's when it becomes a problem because you guys aren't even letting the conversation happen in this debate space. So how the fuck are we like, how are we going to do this in the actual zeitgeist? Past here. Give you a chance to respond, Alex. I think it might. Start us right after. Go ahead, start us. Lavender, I don't wanna speak for Polly but that's not how I interpreted it. I don't think she's trying to dismiss your experience. I'm sorry you had a really bad experience. I think the reason that you're getting that kind of response is because it just sounds like you had a very bad experience due to traumatic circumstances. That's fine. But that doesn't invalidate the positive experience that other people are saying. So it's like, it's just kind of like, oh, I had a really bad experience. No, but I'm not saying every single person. Again, I said this earlier, I'm not saying every single person is going to have the experience that I did. I'm just saying I want to protect other women from having the experience I did. So I want you to prevent it. I'm sure if you're a person who's like a YouTube channel or like give information about that, I'll be all for that. And I would like encourage that. I think you should speak out and talk about your bad experience. I'm just kind of going back to Rachel's point. I don't think the solution, just because you had a bad experience is to either one stigmatize her to make it illegal is just for you to share your story. I've never heard her say, well, first of all, stigma. It is unsafe. So that's not like a stigma. There are things that are like true that Rachel's saying. I've not heard her once make a moral judgment on any sex worker. So I'm not sure what you're saying. She's saying it should be legal. She said that. Sure, but because she doesn't think that a woman should be able to sell her body because a body is not a product. Sarda, so what do you got? So I think the issue here is, well, I think lab's anecdotal experience is important and it's valuable. I think probably part of the reason why it's harder to argue in the scenarios because we generally need to debate scenarios. People are looking for less anecdotal experience and more data driven experiences. So while your experience is completely valid and there are tons of people who have the same experience as you, probably speaking from a personal experience won't be as effective in arguing. I would probably say you can use that. You can use that as an argument. It's the only thing we can use because there's so little. We know that there's one statistic that 60% of women who go into sex work are mentally ill and have seek treatment. We know that those things are true but because it's an illegal trade, it's actually impossible to go to every single sex worker and be like, what was your experience? Yeah, and I think that's an excellent point that you make. I think that's an excellent point that you make because that kind of also helps argue my point in which I say I'm not willing to invalidate all of these people that people are deciding to put under the traffic category and not for some reason under the sex worker category. We don't know that the consent thing is great. It is black and white. We know it's gray. And like you said, so much of it is illegal. We don't really know. We don't have these answers. Now, as far as Rachel's saying, I would again repeat that making prostitution legal in an area, making sex work legal in an area is going to lead to, yes, more instances of trafficking but that's because you've got all of these people who are flowing in and who are going there because they can practice that legally there. And so I forgot where I was going with this. So I will just leave it at that. So, yeah. I will just say one thing Lavender, I think you can't dismiss data in this debate in this discussion. There's a lot of really good information on really good data and studies done on this. It's legal in some countries. This has been investigated very thoroughly. So I don't think we should just be like, oh, anecdotal evidence is all we have left. We have a lot of really good data on this. Well, no, I've also brought up data as well. I don't completely agree with Rachel in that. Well, I don't know. I kind of walk the fence on whether or not I think that it should be criminalized to buy or you actually said that it should be legalized. You said that. Yeah, so I, yeah, I walk the line. So I'm just saying, no, no, you, you flat out. No, no, I've said both though. I've said both in this debate because I You can change your position if you want. No, I don't have a solid position because I think that there's so much data. There's so much data. There's so much data. And we also like don't understand how that data would translate to America that it's like really hard for me, who's like not like an expert on statistics to make it like a full prescription. And I, it's my humble opinion, right? Like most of us here. All right. So I think it's important that I specifically address what Stardust is saying because she's trying to get away with saying something that is actually, you know, she's calling for nuance while at the same time saying, not exactly what the nuance is. I agree that the concepts of consent and coercion are nuanced, but they're intertwined in a way that's worth talking about. For example, it is not, it is not a dismissive thing to say as to the material conditions in which people seek to engage in sex work to say that they are choosing a, you know, there's a lot of trans people in sex work, a lot of trans women in sex work because we are heavily marginalized. And it is one way that we can pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. For example, among a lot of very bad choices, you know, it is very difficult to get a job being open as a trans woman specifically. This is one way that you might be able to at least get a lot of money and or get enough money to live. If you do that, you might describe it as a empowering or you might not. Go ahead, Ashley. Are you both coercive or you're coercive at the same time? That's still a decision and a consent that's, that's. Sure. I can agree with that. I can agree with that. But again, again, would still make the argument that, that again, when we look at, a lot of people want to invalidate people who are trafficked into it. And we know that people who are trafficked into it, it's just not that clear. I would never invalidate that group of people. And I think it's important for us to look at how common it is that people are coerced into it, how common it is that people choose it out of desperation. And, you know, as a, and like you said, Polly, like a lesser evil, right? So, so is that. I think everyone on this panel is against trafficking. I don't think there's anyone on this panel that's like, yeah, trafficking. But the thing is, we understand that there's new ones. We understand there's new ones. You don't have to say it. We do want to hear from Ashley. We get it. We want to hear from Ashley. Go ahead, Ashley. Okay. So I think that overall my feelings and thoughts are that this, again, it goes down to a moral standpoint as we discussed. But in my opinion, I do believe fully and heartily that legalizing those things that people are going to do anyway. And I hate that it was compared to having sex with kids. Like that's terrible. Like, no, that's not what we're talking about. Why? But why is it bad? Wait, let me send this, please. No, I want you to engage with why it's different. Why it's different than having sex with children? Yeah, then legalizing sex with children. Because as human beings, we want to have sex with each other. We want to have sex, right? A lot of men want to be in it. Most men are a few of your files, right? Like most men want to have sex at 15 year olds. We make it legal. That's not true. Wait, what are you getting back to just to end it? No, I mean, that is true. Kids can't do those kinds of decisions. All right, guys, this has been fun. I might actually. What's the statistic on that? None of my friends want to have sex with big year olds. I've never heard this before ever. You got sex, drugs and alcohol, sex, drugs, rock and roll. There's songs about it. It's a much more nuanced conversation. We can have Alex later. You can have sex with people voluntarily. You don't have to buy it. You pay for alcohol. You pay for drugs. You pay for alcohol. You shouldn't have to buy it. Get the fuck out of here. Like, are you kidding me? I do. I will say. I'm going to say what I think. All right, guys. Thank you for sexualizing me tonight. Rachel, I appreciate you. You proved that you're a real gem. I do have nice tits. Again, thanks. You guys have a good one. Thanks so much for coming by, Ashley. We're going to want to answer your questions first. I have a question. I want to ask not to minimize at all whether or not, let's say, like I said, we all talked about earlier. It seems like sex work. Women tend to be the victims rather than men. But are there any ways? And maybe the answer is no. Because I'm not trying to make a case here. Are there any ways in which sex work is not good for men? In other words, as customers, for example, even, let's say, only fans. So for example, is only fans a worthwhile endeavor or a good financial investment for men? What are your thoughts? I guess I'll go first. I would just ask whether I would just ask where the line is for sex work, right? Like what part? What are you doing on only fans? That makes it sex work. Well, I'm saying like, is there, for men as consumers, and the answer might be no. Is there anything bad for consumers? Is there any way in which it's like, as a consumer, like, you might actually be better off if you weren't a consumer? James, the answer is yes. If we assume that there is a patriarchal background to all of this and that men generally have the economic power over women just in a very general way, then that's going to be a less suspect transaction. And I think we can let the dudes do what they want to do. I would actually dispute that one, but I think that any man thinks that he has free access. I think the problem with only fans can be likened to the problem with internet porn in general. I think that there are clearly studies that this is affecting men, whether it be problems with sexual arousal, whether it be violence seeping into other areas because of the access to violent porn. I think that this is just something that is pretty pervasive. Do you want to get anti-porn too because of the addiction? I'm definitely anti-free porn, yeah. Anti-free porn, huh? Yeah. Were anybody, the average child now lose pornography for the first time at 11? Yes. Because you don't need a credit card. There's nothing to verify your age. It's just there. And then it becomes a sexual script. And then in the world where 85% of the most popular porn is violent towards women, a sexual script that is violent towards women is going to be destructive. Where do you think this is from? Well, you can look them up. You can look them up, I promise. I am leaving them to you, Google, and you can buy them. At a time, seriously. Just bite your tongue for a second if you feel like interrupting somebody. OK, go ahead. I think so. Lav, didn't you interrupt? I know that you were speaking. I don't know who was trying to interrupt. I don't worry about names of who it was. But go ahead, Lav. I think you're saying that basically men are more likely to be influenced in the direction of being more violent. Is that what you're saying? Yes. And that's not even. So I think that that is definitely a bad four men also. We see a lot of men not being able to. There's this rise of the in-cell community. They feel like they're not able to humanize women in the way that they're supposed to be humanizing women. They see them as commodities. They see them as something that is so easily sexualized and thrown away. You can log on, see a woman defile herself in any which way in 50 million videos at your fingertips, and then you get to log off and she doesn't exist to you anymore. This has just never happened in society before. And I think that we are definitely seeing movements, like the red pill man movement that has never happened in society before. And I think it's directly to blame. Go ahead, Alex. Lavender, do you consider like mild BDSM like ass slapping, hair pulling, could it be violent? I want to understand your position. I think that it can be. But I'm mostly talking about like, so if you go on Pornhub, I actually did this on stream a couple of days ago where you look at like the top viewed porn. And it's like whore takes huge, like whore teen takes huge whatever, like it's inherently degrading, obviously, to refer to women that way. But also, it's the way that the language is being used. It's the way that it's in five clicks. A 13 year old can find like German dungeon porn. It's like, yeah, it's accessibility. But I don't think that all of that is like inherently like abusive, sure. You see how the audience progressed beyond check. It was just, sorry. Go ahead, go ahead. I don't got a lot to say. OK, I'll promise I'll make time for it. So anyway, so OK, so I think that you're mistaken about this. That's my job. Actually, the most popular porn category, step brother, step sister type of shit. Well, it's it's not like violent. No, but it's no, it is violent type of stuff and violence in those sort of porn. So it's still degradation in step sister porn. OK, OK, hang on, hang on, hang on. Let me finish. So yeah, so like, I don't know how much porn you actually watch. But it's really OK. Well, cool. But majority of porn that I've seen is has no violence in it at all. It's just a girl being trope. It's all highly consensual. It's all in the context of media stuff. Violent type of porn where it's like, yeah, girl gets forced to do shit is a very small minutia. Second point, you said something about the about a lot of insults and whatnot. I agree with you. That is a big issue. This is something I deal with a lot because I'm a dating coach. I deal with a lot of those guys. I have never once in the case of someone being an insult due to porn consumption. It is always the fact that these guys have a lack of information how to approach girls, how to talk to girls. They're socially awkward. They don't really need to. And they don't need to because they've access to all this pornography. So whereas like, so it's like six year old men had to go like meet women in real life to like to get sexually gratified. And that like doesn't exist anymore. That's not true. All of these guys, all of these guys prefer to actually have interaction with women. All of them want to do. Of course, they do prefer it. I'm not saying that they don't prefer it. Right. They want to do it. But the problem, the porn isn't making them insults. The the porn is the only thing making. I think it's adding to the culture. I think it's adding to the zeitgeist, which is adding. I think it's a it's like a dance. It's changed over all of this. I actually think it would be. No, no, he's been waiting very painfully. Thank you, James. OK, so do you notice how the conversation has moved beyond sex work to things around sex work? Like pornography, you could, for example, note that the biases of society imprint themselves all over the place. Like a lot of porn is, you know, heavily racist. It is heavily patriarchal. It is demeaning to women in a way that reflects. You know, you got the causational error wrong. It reflects the larger problem than society. And it was just God damn. And and if we're talking about sex work, specifically, that's different from saying porn is racist and shitty and weird, right? I actually agree with you, I think. But that's another societal problem. It seems like people who are super warning to like cancel sex workers are are trying to narrow their vision about the problems that we have in as races and patriarchy, et cetera, how they impose themselves on on like the sex work industry and then attack sex workers for larger societal problems. The problem is anonymity online. So so where it's not like as acceptable that you're telling everyone that you're into like rape dungeon porn, like just to your coworker, you have access to all of that online and then you hear about it. It becomes a script. More and more children are hearing about it. That becomes their sexual script. One in four women has been choked during sex in Britain without asking for consent, without any ask of consent. One in four women has been choked, whether or not they think that that was abusive towards them or not. It is something that has been done to them without consent. And that is because of porn, making it so accessible to men to think that it's just like, okay, to do that. It's normal. I remember having, I remember the first time I asked someone to like video games for everything. Okay, but, but it's, it's very different. I remember because also women can also be indoctrinated by this, right? So like I'm also patriarchy sure, but also by porn. So like I thought part of the patriarchal problem, right? Yeah, so do we just give it a breeding ground then? Or do we probably try to like have some conversation around it to regulate? What if she just likes to be choked? Like, what is the problem now? Sure, and that's fine, but the problem is, the problem is that plenty of people don't and are like, and are now like sublimating themselves because it's like, what is popular and like, what is okay? So like, I literally had, I mean, I was having sex that was like very violent. I was having, again, personal anecdote. I was having sex and I want to avoid this for other people, right? It's not that I don't think that anyone can be aroused by this. I'm just saying that you, we probably want to avoid women like not being able to advocate for themselves or even seeing their own sexuality outside of like a male perspective, right? Like we wanna probably encourage women to have their own sexualities in their own body without like, oh, he will like if he does this to me, right? Artist? That's true. Yeah, so I don't think there's any problem with people who choose to be choked in all that and choose these certain acts, but it is true that there, it is a problem where people are doing these things without asking partners. And oftentimes women will, because we've been socialized once again to kind of be, people pleasers kind of go along with it, not really fight with a whole lot of stuff is a lot of girls growing up and me included learn to take these types of violence and just kind of deal with it. And even if somebody is throwing you around and your knees busted open and you're bleeding everywhere and they're still throwing you around, you like, you think that you have to continue in this situation when we haven't, we haven't learned how to advocate for ourselves. We haven't, and I don't know if porn is. Well, I think that all of you are gonna be that way. That is true. I don't know that. I don't, wait, let me just finish real quick, yeah. I'm not, I don't know that that porn is necessarily a problem with this. I do think there's a problem within advocacy for women. I can't say whether porn is a problem here and I would never try to assume that, but I do think that when it comes to like these problems that are socialized into women, I think we have this unique experience, but I think also when it comes to incels, I think we should be asking the experts, what makes them an incel? What is driving incels to view women the way that they do? And I know Lav was coming from a good place when she was talking about that, but I think Alex actually has more experience in that category since his audience is more red pill, right? Well, we still have access to like data. We still can like view like Jordan Peterson's whole like demographic, like sure. But I guess my point is I'm just, my point is that I would be curious to ask Alex what he thinks the incel issue is, I guess. I want to hear from Rachel immediately after Alex's short and pithy remark. Sure, it's a complex issue. I'll try to make it as short as sweet as possible. A big part of it is the sexual marketplace has gotten more and more competitive due to hypergamy. So you see a lot of women who want to go for the top guy, right? And that leaves less girls for the guys at the bottom. That's part of the issue. Another part of the issue is technologies making people alienated. Another part of the issue is lack of good role models, lack of good information about sex, about how to talk to women, how to be confident. Also a lot of guys eat a lot of bad food, which fucks with their hormones, they have low testosterone. So it's a very complex issue, but it's a combination of all of those things. It's not a simple issue. It's just like horns making these guys incels. Sure, and I don't think I said that. Sorry, I didn't know you were a red pill guy. Can I ask you a question? Oh, Rachel, Rachel's had her hand up for a while. Okay, okay, okay. I got a question for you. So that up until now, I've mainly just completely agreed with everything Lav said, but I'm going to actually surprise everybody. Well, maybe not Stardust and Polly, because they kind of know me, but I'm going to agree with Alex because I actually am, I have written a book about patriarchy and feminism and where the roots of it come from. And the thing he just said about young men is very true. Young men don't have dads anymore. And I just cited the statistic about how the average sex worker starts at 14 now. Where are the parents? Why are children seeing porn on their phone at 11? Why are young men, why do they have no idea how to talk to a woman? Why are they resorting to pornography? And then assuming that all of us like being choked in spank and whatever, it's because we have removed fathers from the home. We have, patriarchy was actually a good thing. I know that's a very controversial thing to say. I agree with you. It's a very controversial thing to say in this day and age, but it used to be family oriented and men were expected to be patriarchs which meant they were responsible. They had to protect their women and their children. It meant that they did most of the work. It meant that they built a modern world and so on. Now, because of modern technology and because of this like post-enlightenment, post-industrial idea that we're all exactly the same. We're all just interchangeable widgets. Everything is all screwed up like Alex was saying. And I think that it does put young men in this weird place where they have female teachers at school. They've raised by single moms who probably live with their aunt, right? You got it like single women living together raising kids together. And there is no healthy male influence anymore. We've gotten rid of all dads. We kicked them all out of the house. We tell them that it's fine to just go around and impregnate women without marrying them and committing and taking care of them anymore. So it does make young men grow up with this very weird idea about young girls and I have two adult daughters. And their dating experience has been horrific. They will meet a guy and within a date or two, the guy is like, so when do we whip out the BDSM stuff and start like doing crazy shit? And they're like, what? What? No, why would you think that? And then the guy like freaks out and this has happened to them over and over. And they're like, mom, what the hell? I think men are forced to also do this as well. No, no, I got a question for Alex. You have a lot to say, but I do want to ask you a question because I think you might be able to support my point here. So it's in your community, one of the things that is recognized, you can tell me I'm wrong, but I really feel like this is true. So isn't the one power that women have over men is the ability to withhold sex? Or isn't that the one? Yeah, it's the one. Well, it's not necessarily a power because- God damn it, would you let me talk? Holy shit. Okay, so do you think maybe paywalling sex would be in a way, women asserting some of that control over men? Perhaps even you might even say unfairly. Oh my God, oh my God. That's a fair point, Polly. That is a common saying. Yeah, I think it is. There's a common saying. No, that's recorded. Okay, let me first. It's the saying is women are the gatekeepers of sex, men are the gatekeepers of relationships. I think that's generally speaking, of course there are exceptions, but generally speaking that is largely true. The woman decides when sex happens and typically the man will decide when the relationship happens because the woman wants the relationship typically after sex. So what you were saying, Polly, is like, okay, if you put porn behind a paywall, wouldn't that get women some- I mean sex behind a paywall too, right? If you're doing in-person type sex work as well, that's paywalling it. And you don't like that, I assume. No, but- I saw that, I know you're getting owned here, but you gotta let him answer. I'm not getting owned. I actually feel sorry for you. I feel pity. The fact that you think that a body, that a man thinking he has access, if only he has the right amount of money, has access to any female's body is disgusting to me. When did I say any female? Any female? You're kind of moralizing behavior now. Like you're kind of like inflicting your ethics on other people. I'm sorry, moralizing behavior that protects women, sure. I definitely wanna protect women. Yeah, I'd like to point out that men, even if women are the gatekeepers of their own body, rape happens every single fucking day. What do you mean? No one is denying that. No one is denying that. So what the fuck is a paywall to a prostitute? Prostitutes are raped constantly. They're making a straw man argument right now because no one hears- What's the straw man? What's the straw man? Debunk it then. If it's a straw man, debunk it. You're making a straw man argument because you're saying, well rape happens. Of course, no one is denying the rape doesn't happen. Everyone hears against rape. No one is pro-rape, right? You're just kind of- I can't believe I'm on the red pill guy. How do you effectively paywall something? My only fans leaks are all over the fucking place. You can't effectively fucking paywall that. My body doesn't fucking belong to me anymore because everyone wants to fucking leak it. Like, you guys, like, there are so many nuances in this situation. It's not so easy as a fucking paywall. A paywall means nothing. Okay, take it easy. What I think Polly was saying is that- Yeah, I'm telling you to take it easy. Nice. Well, you're getting like so riled up. It's like hard to make a logical point. Just- You're right, I'm the only person riled up here. Not like Polly has been fucking screaming at me, but because I am a biological woman, I'm definitely the one who like- I need to calm down. I need to calm down. I need to calm down. Okay, let's return to the topic. I do wanna ask, before we get done, we're gonna have to go into the Q&A soon, which by the way, folks, wanna let you know 100% of the super chats are going to the Domestic Violence Action Center. No matter what your position is on this topic, I think we all agree on two things at least, namely that we all want fair debates or panels, but also that it's a good thing. Tonight's cause is gonna help a lot of people that have gone through domestic abuse, and so appreciate all of your donations for this, as let it, I said 100%, literally 100% of the super chats are going to go to that charity, linked in the description, encourage you to check them out. One last question before you do wrap up, out of my own curiosity, if you guys don't mind. So are there any other ways that it- Well, I think, Alex, I can't help but ask because it sounded like you thought that you're like, yeah, actually I do, let me know if I'm wrong, Alex, that you were saying yes, namely that you thought there are some ways in which being a consumer of sex work, such as, I don't know if you meant only fans or maybe even prostitution, maybe not in men's best interest. Do I understand right? Are you saying that you were kind of like, yeah, it might be, are you thinking, I have a feeling you weren't thinking what most of the other people said in the panel, which is that it might make men more violent. I have a feeling you were thinking it was something else, am I wrong? Yeah, I don't think it makes men more violent, but I don't think, I think it also depends on the level of consumption. I think mild consumption is probably not gonna have any kind of like negative long lasting effect, but I think severe consumption where you're just watching porn all day is horrible for your psyche and it's not a good idea. So yeah, I would never tell the 100,000 subscribers I have on my YouTube channel, your guys just beat off to porn all day, fuck going out and picking up girls, because that's like a horrible idea for your mental psyche. I don't think it's gonna make you violent, I just think it's gonna make you reckless, it's gonna make you socially awkward and it's gonna fry your dopamine receptors. But at the same time, even though I think that's not a good idea, I think everyone's adult, it should be up to decipher themselves, how they're gonna regulate and make their own decisions how much porn they wanna watch. If I'm all four people saying, hey, watching too much porn is a bad idea, but it's up to each person to make that decision and decide they wanna do. I think eating fast food is a horrible idea, but I don't think McDonald's should be legal. Gotcha, let's give everybody a last chance to give their kind of final drawing together of the threads of this panel before we jump into the Q and A. So maybe in about 60 seconds, if anybody else would like to kind of summarize what they would say from this panel, we'll give you a chance, Paulie, and then we'll go to Stardust, then we'll go to Rachel and then we'll go to Laugh. Okay, well, I would like to just say thank you for the invitation, this is my first time on Modern Day Debate. I had a great time. I would just like to point out that the person who was for patriarchy is against sex work, and I think that pretty much says it all. You got it, go ahead, Stardust. Yeah, I think it's important to acknowledge that, again, viewing, being able to participate in sex work in a healthy way is a point of privilege, I think, and I think that if you look at globally, the vast majority of people who are participating in it don't get to have that healthy experience and may not even want to be involved in it. Does that mean I think that sex work should not be legalized? No, I think sex work should be legalized. I think across data, it shows that it's better for the people who work in it, and people, it's better for them because there's regulation, they're in safer environments, all of that, and I do think, though, in an ideal world where people didn't feel like they had to do certain things just to get ahead or just to make some money and it wasn't something that was coercive, people actually chose sex work because they loved it, then I think that the amount of people that would choose it because they loved it and because that's their calling, would be a really small amount of people. And I think that's, I still think it's a valid profession for those few people, again, it's very, very small people, but there are people who need that, right? And so, I just think it's, yeah, I think it's a very complicated issue and I think we need to look at it from all sides, so. Thank you very much, Rachel. I think that when we're talking about the morality of sex work and whether it's good for society, we have to say that if it was something that was so wonderful, you wouldn't need to be paid to do it, right? Having sex on a voluntary basis is totally different than being in a position where you're like, well, I will only do this if I'm getting a significant amount of money. And I think that to the extent we normalize dysfunctional forms of sexuality is across the board, harmful to everyone in society, including men, women and children, but it specifically harms women and children the most. And I think the best way to have a good world for everyone is to restore family, restore men who are responsible protective fathers who look at responsibility as a badge of honor and that we encourage them to act morally and then we encourage women to be mothers, to be at home with their children, to have both parents home with the kids, knowing what's going on with them and watching them. So I think that sex work in all forms, including only fans, is bad for society at large for all of those reasons. You gotta think, you and Lap. I wrote something. So the narrative that a woman chooses to do sex work is oftentimes invalid because a lot of these women only choose between this and worse options because the world has failed her. Some women have to do sex work because she has no other way to survive or the privilege choice, which I understand even less and why I ultimately decided it was enough for me and I had to leave. I had to leave. Sex work is degrading to the women having sex with her John, the men using her content, but also all women because of what it perpetuates. And while I'm not mad at the individual who does this job as I've done it, I see the realities of the situation. I believe that there are truths in both sides here, obviously both with their problems, but I feel like there's a different gravity to each. I think so many fall into the trap of oversimplifying sex work. It's obviously vast and that's an umbrella term. Each form has its advantages and disadvantages, but it goes without saying that you cannot compare the danger of full-service sex work and person's street work and high-class escorting or even choice sex work, whatever that means. You cannot compare the impoverished, homeless women in Uganda, India, Thailand, Mexico with a college graduated late 20-something with maybe a degree in a big city in the safety of her home, having all the tools at her disposal for optimal safety. It all contributes. We cannot get rid of one thing. We need to understand and analyze the demand. You got it. Thank you very much for those closings and want to remind you folks, in case you didn't know, all of our guests are linked in the description box. That includes at the podcast where we link our guests as well. All of modern day debates, debates and panels end up on the modern day debate podcast available at fine podcast apps, podcast apps everywhere, including Spotify, Apple podcasts and every other podcast app out there where our guests are linked as well. Give me one moment while I'm loading up this, the page... Do I get a closing statement too? Or did mine already count? Yeah, we'll give you one as well. Okay, sweet, sweet, sweet. Yeah, I think that, I think this was a good discussion. I think that sex work, obviously, no one is glorifying it and saying, oh yeah, I want my daughter to grow up and become a prostitute. That's what I really want in life. I think the vast majority of people know it's bad. And I think that if you have PSAs and all that stuff, that's all a good idea. If, sorry, what's your name? Oh, Lavender, if you want to go out and make a YouTube channel and talk about your experience. I think that's a good idea. You should show your experience and I think that's all valid and fine. But at the same time, I think that making it illegal is literally a recipe for disaster. You're just gonna create a lot more problems. I think most of the science, except for the Harvard study supports that and kind of common sense supports that. Also furthermore thing that it shouldn't be stigmatized. I think there's some people who have a need for it. There's some women who actually genuinely enjoy doing it. I've interviewed some of them. That's more in the porn industry rather than being prostitutes. But it does happen. There's not only fans, mom and porn stars who enjoy being porn stars, enjoy doing what they do. There's nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with men consuming porn in moderation. In the same token, like I think that people shouldn't overeat, but I wouldn't go around and be like, yeah, man, like stop overeating. You're getting fat. Like you wouldn't just go down a lot of train. But yeah, there should be some PSAs. There should be some kind of disclaimers, so as to speak. But that doesn't mean it should be stigmatized or made illegal or the people who engage in it should be punished in any way. You got it. Thank you very much for that closing as well. And folks, give me just a moment. If you happen to have a question that you put in as a Super Chat, YouTube is having a legitimate glitch right now. In particular, this happens once in like a year where when I try to open up the Super Chats page, it's just blank, even though obviously there were Super Chats that came in throughout the debate. This is something that I'm finding is both on my PC and my Mac. So this is not a me thing. This is a YouTube thing. And like I said, it has happened before. So give me just a moment as I try to load these up. And if you happen to put in a Super Chat and you remember what it was, we're going by the honor system here, please do submit your question in the live chat as I don't know how fast it's going to take or how long it's going to take for YouTube to submit, or I should say, fix this. But for example, Dingley Bumbus, Paul Sinney, and Trippy Liquids, as well as OG Snoop and Leslie Flemons. I saw you put questions in, but I can see your names. I just can't see your question. So I'll keep an eye on the live chat just to see if you might be able to retype it as a normal chat and then just at me in the live chat. And I'll read those off. So sorry about that. I can read the ones that are there in the chat right now. In fact, Brandon Ardeline says, anyone ever think about how sex work can be beneficial for people who lack the skills or physical attractiveness to have sex through normal quote unquote means? Yeah, I think there's definitely a segment of the population for who it's helpful. People who have disabilities, people who just cannot get laid for whatever reason. I think for those, the option either of being completely sexless, which takes a horrible toll on us as a person's psyche or having sex through paying for it, I think it's the less of two, the most is just to pay for it. There is an experience style of sex work, too, that I think a lot of people are into. And by the way, Alex, I think you red-pilled my whole community. Sick. Yeah, I again would say that's part of the reason why I think that sex work is something that in some sense will probably exist always. And the people who choose to do it have to really enjoy doing it and aren't being forced into it, partly because I think that there are people with disabilities who need those types of services. This one coming in from Sudhu Nim says, free money for donation of the Domestic Violence Action Center. Thanks for your donation. It says, when there are women, that violence is good work when not domestic. I don't exactly know what that means. But it says, thanks, James. This panel was even better than I thought. So glad that you enjoyed it. And this one from CJH5229 says, for the channel and the promotion of free speech, thanks so much. We appreciate that. CJH, we are absolutely determined to give everybody their fair shot at making their case on a neutral platform on modern day debate. Other questions coming in. Let me just keep an eye. Folks at me, if you happen to have a question. And Cameron Hall, no, I cannot see your question. That's why if you guys can at me in the live chat with your question, that helps a lot. And just give me a moment, folks. Want to mention, our guests are linked in the description. If you have not already, you've gotten a little bit of exposure. You've been exposed to them. You've heard their views. You're going to have an idea of what they're advocating for, what positions they take. You can click on their links below. What are you waiting for? Go ahead right now. Click on their links in the description box. Joe Schwartz says, I learned something every time I watched these debates. Thanks, Joe Schwartz. So glad to hear that. That's encouraging. And Dingley Bombas says, let's see. OK, I don't know what that's about. But this one from Paul Ciney says, sex work encourages hookup culture, killing the family unit. This is really bad for our future. There will be many broken families in the future. Is this true? Yes. I think that's true. Yeah, I think that's true. Gotcha. Anybody else? Anybody not think that's true? Oh, I think that there is. I mean, I think it's a little bit of a tangent. But I think we had touched on it earlier that men are the people who control the, are the gatekeepers of relationships and women are the gatekeepers of sex. But I think that I wanted to comment on this earlier. I think that that idea that women are the gatekeepers of sex is kind of being eroded in a way. Because women feel like they have to put out for, in a lot of these dating situations, they have to put out immediately for men. Otherwise, he'll never have interest in her again, and stuff like that. I think that there's a cultural shift. That's one of the worst consequences of the sexual liberation movement is that it kind of broke that woman code that, hey, we're all going to try to hold out for marriage because we all want to get married. We all want a family, right? So when sexual liberation happened and a large segment of the population decided to follow the free love thing, it's like, well, now all the men are just gonna go for the 10 or 20% of women who are just giving it away for free. And it makes it a lot harder for the rest of us. So it has changed the dynamic completely. When it was the social norm for women to say, no, I'm not just gonna give away the milk for free. You kind of need to buy the cow. It was a different situation for everybody. I might disagree on that, but I might actually disagree on that. I think women, regardless of the sexual liberation, have kind of been made into a commodity for a long time. And I think it's just kind of evolved over time. And while, sure, sexual liberation may add a different layer into that, I think that this was just an eventual evolution of how we treat women in media and how we treat women in society. Complete agree. Yeah, I also disagree with Rachel on that. I don't see it as a bad thing at all. I think that women are entitled to make their own decision if one woman wants to wait till marriage. Of course, you're not gonna think it's bad. Alex, men are gonna think, men, we're gonna get laid out if they don't think it's bad, right? I don't see sex as like a zero-sum game where I'm getting something from the girl. I see it as a win-win. We're both winning. We're both having a good time. The girl's gonna come four or five times, right? This is where I'm... My dating coach, you don't seem to understand women in their struggles very comprehensively. I don't wanna agree with the red pill guy again. I think that women should be venerated as mothers, as pillars of the community. I think that we should be looked at as, men used to look at women and say, well, I wanna marry a woman who knows how to behave herself well and she can raise my children well and she's intelligent and can pass that down to my children. She's gonna teach my children the morals. She's going to be like an upstanding member of the community that I would be proud to be married to. It wasn't just based on sex. It wasn't like sex is important, nobody's saying it's not. And in a marriage, it's very important, but this is a long-term thing. And the other thing we have not addressed is, what are we gonna tell all these women to do after they're 25 or 30 or 35 or 40? Have you ever seen what happens to exotic dancers when they hit like 30? There's a million. They get priced out. No, then they can't get a good job because what do you do? The longer you're in it, the harder it is to leave. And I know some girls who this has happened to and it's very tragic and I don't wanna see it happen to others. You can't say that it's harder to leave the longer you're in and then also say you're gonna be kicked out whether you like it or not. Those are, those are, those are, Well, you just don't have options is what she's saying. She's saying, look, if you've been an exotic dancer. You're kept in it until they're through with you. Right, they decide. Yeah. The market decides. Crazy way to think about it. I, my only point here was to say that women aren't the gatekeepers of sex anymore. That that's my only point. Well, that's a reductive way to think, but. Well, we're the child bearers. So to a degree, we should be. It should be to a degree like, hey, if I'm gonna give you children, which is gonna take a toll on my body, make me vulnerable, make me have a need for resources, then you need to provide me with security and stability and you need to be good to me and the children. I need to be able to trust you with our safety. It was a much, there's always going to be some kind of exchange there. And I would much rather as a woman, have it be that than what it is right now. I'm not gonna, the average only fans girl makes $180 a month. Yeah. Yeah, that's too. $180 a month, you guys. I can make more than that selling the cookies I bake. Come on. Many, many questions. This one coming in from OG snoop says, howdy James for pro sex work. Why should we have more access to sex for our lovely ladies against sex work? Why should people have less access to sex? I mean, to me it's not about access to sex. It's just about decriminalizing something that is that the criminalization of serves patriarchal interests and harms the most marginalized of people. I'm very, I'm sorry, you can go for it. I'm very like pro sex. I believe that we should have a way more comprehensive based sex ed. I think that the first time you learn of sex or learn about sex should not be through porn. It should be through either like, either a school or your parents or videos that they can, not videos that they can show you like porn videos, but videos about your body if they're uncomfortable explaining it to you. Or just even trial and error, like having sex with each other. I'm very like pro like open relationship, very like pro sex in general. I just think that the commodifying a body as a product is what is like, is what is dangerous. Yeah, I think sex is great. It's wonderful. And I think I'm all for more people having sex. And I think a lot of problems would go away if a lot more people were having sex. Like every single time you see us cheating, the story is this guy never had sex. He never got laid. Imagine how much less dead bodies could actually get a prostitute. Every little shooter should get a prostitute, basic. Basic, oh my God. I'm not saying this could get a prostitute. I'm just saying like imagine how much things would be different of those people were actually having sex and they had normal relationships instead of like, you know, being installed. So I think a lot of problems would go away if there's more people having sex. And yeah, I think for some people, for some people, especially people with severe disabilities, people who don't have the option of actually having sex that getting a prostitute is a pretty good option and I can do wonders for the mental health and psychics. You go to this one, coming in from Trippie Liquid says, someone tried to convince me Helen Keller was a fraud. Now I'm so confused. I don't know what to do. It was very convincing. Thanks for that. I'm looking for other questions. Thanks so much. These coming in from, gosh, okay. I'm sorry, YouTube is totally glitching on me. Bear with me folks, but this one coming in from, psychor says it'd be more accurate to say, quote, you're renting your body, not selling it, correct? You're not losing a kidney. Also, a similarly damaging job would be theatrical wrestling. Make that illegal as well. I don't think that's true. When you're working like on the street or something, you're putting your life like in someone else's hands and that you need to like oftentimes to have sex with someone, I feel like you need to trust them so that they don't hurt you, right? And that cannot happen within the framing of like sex work. I think that's like the biggest problem. You know what, I've got to say too, am I the only person? If it's an answer to the question. Am I the only person on this panel who thinks that sex should be something you do with someone you love as an expression of that love? Or we just way past that. We're in 2022 now, we're all materialistic. I know, I actually, and everybody should just talk to that. No, I actually, Rachel, I think that we actually converge on like so many things. And when you were saying that we actually disagreed with like the patriarchy is good, I think that we are like so close to like completely agreeing it's actually crazy. But I think that like- I think you'll get there. I think you'll see- No, I won't. Because I think that- So whereas you think that like love should be like between like a man and a wife or in something in marriage or in a relationship, I think that you can like love like anyone. And but I completely agree with you that like sex should be with someone that you love and trust. I think that we should be having more sex with our friends though. This is coming in from, do appreciate your question as well. K-Max McDonald says, do Lav and Rachel feel that porn would be bad even if ran from a woman's perspective? What if it were less patriarchal and more female controlled? I still don't think it should be free. Or as easily accessible to children, like by any means, but that's definitely better for me at least. Yeah, I think that definitely it should not be free. I think that's something that would be an easy fix to be like, no, you've got to have a credit card and proof of your age to view pornography. And it's so ubiquitous now that like all of these giant, I've actually written a very viral article about sissy hypnoporn and some of the really dark parts of porn and what happens there and how these programs got going and what they do to people. And it's a very serious stuff. It is not like a joke at all. And this stuff is like a drug. It's stronger than like hypnosis or opioids or things like that and the way it affects your brain. And if you consume certain types and amounts of porn, you need more and more weird, crazy things to get the same effect. And it does have a very crazy effect on how people view themselves and other human beings. We're talking about people here. We're talking about humans. We're not just talking about body parts smashing, right? At least that's my view. I don't see it as just like this, this transaction that's meaningless where we just smash stuff together until we have orgasms and that's what sex is, you know? And it's been reduced to that. And I think that's, we forget about the person attached, you know? This one from Maddie TRCB says, digital mind field as well, says, shout out to Rachel. Everything she said here tonight is 100% correct and based. How do you like them apples, Alex? This one comes with her. Rachel said, if there's like 10 seconds, yeah, I think people view sex differently. I think you're entitled to want to have sex with someone you love for whatever. But I've had so much casual sex in my life and it was great. I don't regret any of it. So I don't see that happening. I think most women see sex differently than how men see sex. There's plenty of my girlfriend, you can ask my girlfriend about it. She said plenty of casual sex, well, like not. She might also be indoctrinated by the culture. Yeah, and tell her to get back to us when she's 60. Let us know how she feels about it when she's 60. Because she's young, right? She's really young right now, right? 32. Okay, so she thinks it's gonna be like this forever. 32 is old enough, I think to kind of know that. I think there's just can't just count on people. She clearly hasn't lost her sexual market value and she's gonna have a totally different perspective at 60 when it doesn't matter how well she's aged. You put her next to a hot 22 year old and nobody looking at her. And nobody tells this to women. They don't tell us that we're gonna live till we're 80 and we have to think about what happens after we're 40, 50, 60. That's a lot of time. People are entitled to make their own decisions and have the kind of sex that they want. Yeah, but that's this liberal libertarian. We should give drugs to people. You're just taking for granted that liberty to do whatever the hell you want, this do what that will pro-Lyuan libertarian view is just a default. And I get it that it's very popular and it's kind of the ethos that we're in, but I don't come from that worldview. I don't think there's anything wrong with too consenting adults having casual sex yet. I'm sure that you don't. And a lot of people don't. I'm just saying I think there's a lot more to it that people don't think about. This one coming in from, do appreciate your question as well. Cameron Hall says, my question was, more sex in the population, even among sex workers may reduce an STD epidemic if the marginal sex worker has low risk or safe behaviors that dilute it. See, there you go. Health service, health care service. Foreign stars still have the highest rate, even though it's regulated, they still have the highest rate of infection. Yeah, there was just like a huge outbreak. But isn't that due to the fact though that they're putting those situations where they're like pressure to do it like with no protection and stuff like that? It's partly because of that. You know what's actually really funny is that they actually like had a strike because the producers thought that there's no way, because it was gonna be a law that they had to use protection and the porn producers literally like struck it down because they didn't care at all because it was bad for business. Yeah, because capital. I think a lot of your statistics are just not true, lad, and they're like, I've interviewed countless people. I believe in you, Alex. You have Google at your fingertips. You can use it. I have Google, can I just respond? Sorry. Go ahead, Alex. You go ahead, finish, Alex. Okay, so the point I was making is that porn stars in point, there's very strict requirement to have to get SED tested every two weeks. And yet they still have the highest rate of infection way more than the general public. Explain it. Can you just give me the source for that? Like where are you sourcing this from? You can Google it, Alex. I don't disagree with either one of your points. I think that Lab has a point with, you know, there being a high instance of STDs. But I think Alex has a point too. I do believe in adults, you know, ability to choose. However, I do think with more regulation, we could see better improvements, right? And I would say that the incidence of STDs being so high in the porn industry is probably more leading me to believe that people are not using protection like they should be and people are being pressured to not use protection like they should be, right? So that's, if anything, a lacking of regulation where there should be some. Well, and this is, there's a lot of jobs that are dangerous because of oppressive systems, right? Like coal miners don't have a great gig military, like we already talked about this. Singling out sex workers is a mindset that you have, but it doesn't make it, you know, good public policy. This one coming in from Sausage Lorde. We'll get everybody's opinion on the panel on this since it came up earlier and it, we didn't, you could say, yeah, we didn't quite get to wrap it up. Sausage Lorde says question for Polly. What did it mean when earlier in the panel, it was said that biological women experiences are different than trans women experiences sounds homophobic. Is this homophobic to say that biological women experiences are different than trans women experiences? Well, the question is, is it transphobic? And, you know, just like any other, any, any statement, you have to look at the context. And I- Which phobic did I say? Sorry. Homophobic. Oh, sorry about that. So it's transphobic. And, you know, I can't say, well, I can say that I was able to, by the end of, I think by the end of the panel, Lavender ripped her own mask off and went full transphobic. I think that's, you know, and- I'm not transphobic at all. We already know Rachel would probably admit to it, but other than that, I don't think anybody will. I'm not transphobic at all. I believe that every trans woman trans person should have access to affordable, if not free healthcare. I believe in gender affirming care. I believe in all of it. I acknowledge you as a woman. I think that there is obviously a very clear distinction between a biological man and a biological woman, even if they share the woman title. Yeah, nobody's argument that it's just when you- So I'm not a trans- You're out for no reason, and your justification- Well, I'm the one who brought it out to be fair. And I brought it up because, again, I view- I know, we know why you brought it up. Well, they don't. Okay, all right, go ahead. I view womanhood as motherhood. We are the mothers. We're the ones that perpetuate the race, and we're the ones who decide who gets the mask on their genetics. Oh my God, so faced. You know, that's a big factory, definitely. This is why I'm a misinjured. This is why I'm a misinjured. This is why I'm a misinjured. These factories, come on. Well, Holly, I raised five human beings. That's pretty awesome. I've raised five amazing human beings. That is the most you can contribute to society. Are you mother-phobic by saying that, oh, I'm just a baby factory. Isn't that demeaning and dehumanizing to me to say I'm just a baby factory? No, I didn't say you're a baby factory. I said your definition, or the way you are defining womanhood, is as a baby factory. And I think- No, I am saying that we are the ones who raise the next generation, and there's nothing more important. So then trans women are women because we can also raise kids. But you can't birth them. Right, baby factory, that's what you're saying. But there are lots of cis women who can't birth them as well. It's like, to be fair, like biological humans, biological women are actually like extraordinarily bad at giving birth. It's so dangerous for humans. And while I agree with you that raising children and taking care of kids, it can be an incredibly important job in one of the most important ones in the world. I do think that women in general are just like notoriously bad, like biologically bad at having kids. It's just, there's a reason why the maternal mortality rate used to be so high and we had to have all these interventions to reduce it and all that. But that being said, I think that there's a value in saying that I believe that all, I believe trans women are women, but I think just under the category of women, you have different categories. For example, I'm Indian, of Indian origin, saying that something that I deal with might be different from what a black woman deals with versus what a trans woman deals with versus what a, and even with saying like, yes, there is a, look, I'm gonna be real with you guys and this is like one of the more unpopular opinions I have, there is a biological disadvantage to being born with the biology of women, right? There is a disadvantage and I think there's a biological disadvantage. So I think it's important to be able to acknowledge that while still, I can still consider trans women as part of the category of women, but there is an inherent disadvantage to being a biological woman. Okay, so the fact you can say that statement categorically like that shows that as one who calls for nuance quite often I will let you know that that statement requires a fuck ton more nuance before you say something like that so categorically. Want to say, folks? Wait, what was so? We're gonna get off on a whole tangent, but maybe you should invite us back to talk about that because I think the four of us gonna have a really good conversation on that. This is what I'm talking about. I should have watched that one. You should. Sorry, man. You should, that's everything's about you. Alex will be on Wednesday and we're gonna have a juicy in-cell kind of discussion on Wednesday, wanna mention that. That's coming up, folks. You don't wanna miss it, hit that subscribe button, but also, folks wanna say on Twitter, I just posted kind of the picture of the glitch I'm seeing from YouTube which I know that a lot of you guys, well, everybody wants their Super Chat Red and normally we read every stinking one of them, but for real, there's a glitch with YouTube right now that I did a screenshot so you can see what I'm seeing and that's on Twitter if you wanna see it just so you know I'm not full of crap. Also, I will be posting the donation receipt in the YouTube social pop, what was it, a post tab. And so, keep an eye out for that. It's usually within 24 hours where YouTube will count up the Super Chats and then I basically do it from there after adding back in the 30% that YouTube takes. Do you guys know YouTube takes 30%? But the point is we're gonna take 100% of the Super Chat so including the 30% that YouTube usually takes will be going to that charity, will be uploading the charity receipt because we always wanna have full transparency about all of these charity streams that we do and wanna say, our guests are linked in the description, you would be crazy not to click on their links if you wanna hear more right now. You can click the links are waiting, they're waiting for you right now. Any last questions? Let me just see, I'm gonna skim the chat because I wanna see that we didn't miss any as I do appreciate you folks being willing to type in your questions into the chat even though you already typed them in earlier for that. Glitchy. Oh, Alex. We all in the chat like throwing like 20 or 50 bucks into this cause as well. We can raise another like 200, 300 if you guys are down. Alex, did you know that I'm Andrew's wife? By the way, did you put that together? Did I, do I sound like it? Oh, I did not know. Oh, shit, nice to meet you. I did not know. Yeah, nice to meet you too. Alex and my husband have had like a whole series of very popular debates about some of this stuff. We've debated millions of times, yeah. No, I did not know, but thank you for telling me. Yes. Small world. But yeah, folks, I think that's all I can see in terms of those who have added me in the YouTube live chat. Oh, there is, hold on. That's right, someone sent one through Venmo. We do have Venmo if you wanna send a super chat and those will also be donated to the Domestic Violence Action Center. So thanks for letting me know in the live chat that there is a Venmo super chat question that came in. I'll read that right now. But I wanna say, yes, our guests are linked in the description, including at the podcast. So if you're listening on the podcast right now, folks, you can find Lab's link, Rachel's link, Stardust link, Polly's link, and even Alex's link in the description box. And if Ashley gets back to me, I ask Ashley because I hadn't gotten Ashley's link already, so if Ashley does send me a link, I'll add that as well. And wanna say, oh my gosh, even Venmo's, all right, glitching, all right, bear with me. All right, this one coming in from, yes. This one from, no, we didn't. Was this some sort of tasteless joke? There's none in there. Okay, what does he say? Thanks everybody for being with us tonight. Check out our guest links. It's been a true pleasure. Rachel Lab, Stardust, Alex, and Polly, and Ashley, thanks so much for all of our guests being with us, it's been a true pleasure. Thank you. Thanks to you. Thank you. 100%, I'll be back in just a moment, folks, letting you know about upcoming debates. So stick around for that post-credits scene in just a moment. When coming up with Modern Day Debate, we wanted to have eclectic opinions, positions, arguments represented on Modern Day Debate as our goal. If it's your first time here at Modern Day Debate, our goal is to provide a neutral platform so that everybody can make their case on a level playing field. That's our goal, and we stick to our values. And here are what our values are, in particular, as you can tell. We want everybody to have their fair shot in terms of representing their position, but not only that, we want people to have liberty, you might say, the freedom to say what they want, even if it might be controversial or offensive, we are going to platform those positions, those people, and it might offend some people, and some people might even be worried and say, James, it might be harmful. This person's got a harmful position, or it's misinformation, disinformation, you name it. That's where our third value comes in, we believe in the value of competition. In particular, we believe that if you let a thousand flowers bloom, if you let the chips fall where they may, the cream will rise to the crop or top, you will have the best arguments win out. That's what we believe will happen, and basically, there's a very good empirical case that can be made. I think I've mentioned it before. I'm working on my PhD in industrial organizational psychology. There is empirical data on this, because some people might say, well, James, yeah, but I worry that the people who might be maybe giving the worst arguments or the misinformation type arguments, I worry that they may still be more persuasive simply because they might be better looking or they might be more humorous or whatever, charming, et cetera, but the research, Petty and Cassioppo in 1986, the elaboration likelihood model, suggests that those peripheral factors of persuasion don't have long-lasting effects. Instead, logical argumentation has long-lasting effects. In other words, the strongest arguments will win out and they will have the greatest influence even if you have, as some people might say, a charlatan peddling disinformation, the best arguments are gonna win out. So we let 1,000 flowers bloom. It's organic, heaven forbid, because, for example, the mainstream media, a lot of the news, not all, but a lot, a lot of the news will overproduce their debates or dialogues so much that it's like, geez, it's so controlled, it's not authentic, it's not organic. YouTube deserves a better class of debate channel and we're gonna give it to them. That's our goal here at Modern Day Debate. We are improving all the time as, hey, we are looking for ways that we can do Modern Day Debate better and we are continuing to improve and hey, we'll be open about it, hey, I'm open. We have things that we can fix. That's true, we're open to that and we're determined to make that happen. And believe me, my dear friends, this is just the beginning of our story. Join us while we are small because Modern Day Debate, I am thrilled and thankful, most of all thankful. Thank you guys for sharing these debates. That helps so much. You have no idea, I can tell in the Creator Studio it shows how many times people share debates and people share our debates a ton, which is super helpful, which is why, don't get me wrong, I'm thankful. We have hit 79,000 subscribers. Seriously, isn't that amazing? And I predict that within probably two weeks or so, two to three, we'll hit 80,000 subscribers thanks to you guys, seriously. If you hit like, that does help the stream, no joke, because YouTube's algorithm, when it is factoring in how many times they'll recommend a video or whether or not it's ranked as people search for certain terms, things like hitting the like button do make a difference. So we appreciate you guys doing that as well as you guys have always been super supportive in that way, so thank you guys and most of all, thank you to the guests. The guests are the lifeblood of the channel. They make this fun. If it was just me debating myself every night, it would be a terrible debate channel. It's the guests. It's the guests that make this a fun channel and entertaining channel. You might say infotainment, namely where you hopefully get to learn new things as well as be entertained as we do appreciate our guests who are linked in the description. What are you waiting for? If you're thinking like, I thought about clicking their links, why haven't you? Now's the time. You can click on their links right now. Also, if you're listening via the podcast, you can click on those links right now as well. As if you didn't know folks, we do have a podcast. Did you not know that? For real, we do. Every debate for modern day debate ends up on the podcast, usually within 24 hours. Sometimes I forget and it's like $48 or something, but I'm usually pretty good. They will end up on the podcast. That way, if you are like, you know, I sometimes I lose service while I'm driving to work. Well, hey, you don't have to worry about it if you download the podcast. How nice is that? That's pretty neat. But I want to say hello to you there in the old live chat. Sammy Hempari, thanks for coming by as well as living room speakers. Thanks for coming by. Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate that support. That seriously means a lot. And Geo Electric Universe, thanks for coming by. Hamlet's dad, thanks so much. Says, what do you think of commies? I think you guys probably know that. I'm personally, I'm like somewhat politically moderate. I'm not like super, I don't have as much to like, you know, skin in the game when it comes to politics. I'm pretty open minded to like being persuaded. And I try to keep an open mind when it comes to at least listening to people's position. You have to at least understand their position. So though I'm not a communist, we always welcome communists in the same way that we welcome people that are on the far right. We welcome people and it's like, oh controversial, like, oh James, like I'm triggered. The idea here is if we say we're about tolerance and then we say, oh, well, they're just a little bit too far to the left, we're not gonna have them on. Or they're a little bit too far to the right and can't have them on. It doesn't seem very tolerant, you know? Cause it's true. You know, a lot of people say they're tolerant and they talk a big game, but they're posers. They're wannabes. You have to walk the walk and we actually do it cause we've hosted people that I'll be honest. There are some people, I'm not gonna name them by name but there are some people that I felt uncomfortable hosting. In other words, I thought like, like they've got some controversial views but nonetheless, if we're going to talk about tolerance and say that we're gonna give everybody a free shot, we're gonna give everybody their shot. Jeremy Nolan, thanks for coming by, says, James, thank you brother. Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate that brother. And I saw, where is it? Matthew, I saw you in the little live chat. Matthew Culver, it's been good to see you old friend. Thanks for your support and love brother. I hope you are doing well. And Jake, good to see you out. Ryan, thanks for coming by as well as DJ Dissolve. Good to see you back. Solverax, thanks for coming by. Thanks for your channel membership support. And you guys, did you know that we have channel memberships? For $1.99, you can become a channel member in which you get to use the amazing emoticons that I'm putting in the live chat right now, including the amazing emoticon and the soyboy one that you can use to call your friends and chat a soyboy. It's very fun, all right, that's my favorite. But one is a, we also have, we don't mention this very often. I pretty much forget to say this all the time. We have a Patreon. So if you do have an interest in supporting us through Patreon, that link is in the description below. My goal is to someday make modern day debate my full-time job, no joke. And by my goal, I actually, this is kind of a secret, but my goal is to actually wrap up the PhD and I want to, Lord willing, just go full-time with modern day debate. For real, I'm dead serious. So if you wanna see that, where we will have more debates, joining the Patreon is one way of supporting me and making that transition as Patreon's something that was like, hey, we haven't talked about it, but we do have it. So if you would like to support the neutral channel and you'd like to see more debates, in other words, on a more consistent basis, hey, that's a great way to support it. And Vector, thanks for your super chat, says, I prefer debate over civil war. Amen to that, I agree. And Alex Trimo Del Norte, thanks for coming by. We are glad that you were here. X, X, Silius Goose, thanks for coming by. I see you there in the old live chat. Hi, Flyer, glad to have you as well as Joe. The toe, good to see you again. DJ Disolve says, didn't feel neutral to me. Well, thanks for your feedback on that, DJ. That's the more specific you can be, the more we can improve, if you let me know. I'm at modernatobate.com, pretty easy to remember. No spaces, no hyphens, just modernatobate at Gmail. Amanda says, Venmo was being dumb. It wasn't a joke. That's all right, Amanda, no problem. Said, Matish, good to see you, thanks for coming by. I said, that was epic. I agree, that was amazing. I knew it was going to be good. But it was even better than I expected. That was a massive panel. Seriously, that was a phenomenal panel. Thank you guys for all of your support. Russell Gibson, good to see you in the air in the old live chat. Short, fat, otaku. Thank you for coming by, says Kimba94. Taftaj is my friend, and she is great. We appreciate you being with us, short, fat, otaku. Is otaku, do I remember right? That means somebody who's shy and was drawn and they love computers or something. I can't remember. I saw it the other day, I finally learned that word. But I don't know if I learned it right. Let me know if I remembered it right or if I even... But oil, regime, thanks for coming by, as well as yesamirbeard, thanks for coming by, says good stream, thanks for your support, friend. Dickens, the black cactus, thanks for coming by. And you guys, if we can get to 400 likes, we're at about 330 likes right now, I will show you the Subway tattoo, for real. I have a 12 by 12, by 12 by 12, I mean 12 by 12 inch tattoo of the Subway series logo on my back. I'm serious. That's not a joke. I will take my shirt off and show you this tattoo. But we have to get to 400 likes and we have 515 people watching. Like that's not that huge of a stretch. If we can get to 400 likes, I will take it off right now and show you this tattoo. Some of you are like, no, just please, you're unmiking. But your likes go a long way. Like I said, it does help us grow this channel as we are determined to continually expand modern day debate across the universe of YouTube to make it such that we are YouTube's premiere debate channel. That's our goal and we're gonna do it. This one coming in from nutrespecter says, good stream, keep it up, dude. Thanks man, I appreciate it. And rattlesnakerobthanksforcomingby says, what the heck? Only if we donate, we get our questions read. At least I'll know for next time. Well, I think I actually did read. I might be wrong about this. I think I did read one question tonight that was not a donated one. But we do read the donated ones first because people are supporting the channel. So we do read those first. And then on most nights, we usually get to read maybe several, like, and sometimes it's very few of the non-donated questions if you just at me and chat. But at the same time, that also depends on, well, like our speakers. Like sometimes our speakers, especially because we start oftentimes at 9 p.m. If they're in Eastern time and it's going on midnight, we usually want to let them out by a decent time. So we can't guarantee that the non, you could say that the standard questions will be read. We try to read them, but just a heads up that, yeah, it's true that we don't get to them every single night because we do honor and respect the time of our debaters. And I don't think that's unreasonable of us. But DJ Dazal said, or let's see. Oh yeah, and then yeah, I mean tonight was kind of a mess because we didn't even get to read the super chats. So if you're mad that you didn't get your standard question read when you added me in chat, think about the people who sent in a super chat tonight. There was a glitch on YouTube to where basically I couldn't see the super chat. So people who sent in a super chat, so if it's any consolation, if you're like, ah, I submitted a non-paid question just a standard question, I didn't get it read, like, ah. Is those who gave us super chats. Although if you gave a super chat tonight, congrats, 100% of it is going to the Domestic Violence Action Center as we care about making a difference in the world, a lot of people, a lot of content creators will say, oh, I want to make a difference in the world and I care about social justice. But do they put their money where their mouth is? Do they walk the walk? Do they actually take action? Or do they just talk about it? Because you know there are a lot of posers. There are a lot of people that virtue signal or like, oh yeah, I care about social justice. And it's like, no, you care more about your next vacation and your next tattoo and getting Starbucks every day and getting your Netflix and every other streaming service that you have where realistically those content creators that say that they care about social justice but they don't give squat, it's like, well, hey, we're walking the walk. Now if they really are a content creator that literally can't afford it and they're like, no, no, no James, like seriously, I'm on rice and beans, that's all I spend my money on. Then I'm like, okay, I understand it. But in reality, I'm just, yeah, I'm gonna throw it out there. I'm not impressed by there are some content creators out there who are like, oh yeah, I care so much. And you know, and then, but they don't. And they just don't make sacrifices. We believe in action and sacrifices. That's the currency of the realm here at Modernity Debate. We're actually gonna take action. If we say that we care about a cause, we're actually gonna take action and donate to it. Because a lot of people say, money makes the world go round. And they usually say that in kind of a, kind of a critical or pessimistic way. But the way we see it at Modernity Debate is, yeah, money makes the world go round. So we can donate money and make a good cause more empowered or give them more funds to carry out their good goals. And so we wanna say thank you guys for putting in your super chest tonight as 100% will be going to the Domestic Violence Action Center. Matthew Colbertson said, I learned, oh by the way, that charity is linked in the description. We always make sure that we choose a charity that has a great watchdog rating. As we wanna make sure that people's funds are actually going to a responsible charity. That's a thing too. That's another thing that like, I just think it's so weak need and pathetic. When people, some people, remember, not all, but some people will like, oh, I would give to a charity, but I never know. I don't know if they're gonna use it responsibly. There are charity watchdogs. You can check out and do the research and find out what their evaluation is. So for example, the one that we're getting to tonight, we've looked into it. We've got a great charity watchdog rating. And yeah, so there are solid charities out there. But like I said, be about it. Don't talk about it for those content creators out there that talk and talk about how they care so much. And then it's like kind of like, well, great. Let's see, put your money where your mouth is. Matthew Colbertson says, I learned something tonight. Make buying time with prostitutes illegal, not the selling of time with the prostitute. I had never thought about that before. Make buying time with prostitutes illegal, not the selling of time with the prostitute. Oh, I see what you're saying. And want to say though, we are pumped to have you here. Shaik Yamani, maker, thanks for coming by, says I want a hollow earth debate. Well, maybe. We've done weirder stuff. Cracker Jack, thanks for coming by. Captain Lassiri, thanks for dropping in. Rasul, glad you're here. Living Room Speaker is happy to have you. As well as MJ Carpenter says, please host a philosophical debate on to be or to not, not to be. Thank you for that idea. Bezos anti-bullying agency, glad you made it. Thanks for dropping in. And let's see here. Coffee politics, where did I just see you? You son of a gun. Why, OG Snoop, why do you keep putting all those pictures of tomatoes? Why are you using the tomato more con? Why are you spamming with those? Coffee politics says, James, when are you gonna let me on modern day debates? I've been emailing you, but you have been ghosting me. Hey, no offense. I try to keep up with emails, but it is true that I am behind in this. No offense to you. I seriously, it's not anything personal. So bear with me as it is true. There are at this point, it's been on about 100 emails. It's just really hard for me. Right now, working on a doctorate is brutal. Seriously, and frankly, I had a scare a couple weeks ago. I was afraid I wasn't even gonna be in the doctorate anymore, because I thought I failed my candidacy exam. So it is like brutal, like bear with me. It's nothing personal. If you tweet me, that's another way to get a hold of me. And in and out of the abyss says, would you not hit the like button? That's true. I mean, if you guys don't wanna see me take off my shirt, I would not hit the like button. Zach says, do a debate on Alden's number. That's, I like that. Loki va, thanks for coming by. Or is it Loki VA? Let me know if I'm pronouncing it right. Dingley Bumbus, thanks for coming by, as well as Jackie N. So I've been trying to donate, fail today. We appreciate your support. Seriously, Jackie N. We love you. And Sammy, hampari, am I saying it right? We're glad you're here. And Dickens, the black haktis says, I don't know, 400 is realistic now. We got 480 people. We can totally get to it. If we get to 400 likes, we have, that means like 76 people who are watching now, even if they didn't hit like, if the rest hit like, we'd easily get to the 400 mark, because a lot of those likes probably from people that tuned in, watched for an hour and they're like, oh, it's getting late. I got to go to bed. So we can totally get to 400 likes. We appreciate your support. As, like I said, that does help modern day debate grow. Thank you guys. And let's see here. Dov Rieke, thanks for coming by D1001 more. Thanks for coming by. We are glad you were here. Counselor Guy, thanks for coming by. As well as Hamlet's Dad says, yo, where are the commies at? Like Vosh, hey, we actually, I just heard back from Vosh today about a possible debate. So we may actually be having Vosh on the channel later this month. It's odds are good. He said he's interested in the debate. So we love having, it's fun to have people from all walks of life. I am pumped. So want to say thank you very much for being with us. Fuck, fuck Guido. Is that how it's pronounced? Let me know. See you there in the little live chat. Thanks for being with us. And let's see here. Want to say we love you guys. Randall Richardson, thanks for your support. Randall says, thanks James for hosting another Monday debate. Today's topic is a very important one. And I'm applauding you again for supporting engagement in the free exchange of ideas. Thank you for that Randall, seriously. And I love your two mugs, emoticon, that's base. So thank you for that. Seriously, it means a lot Randall. Thanks for all of your support. And Randall also says, I uploaded this video. Did you? And Polarize Squirrel, thanks for your donation. Says nothing but respect for everyone here, GG. Thanks for your support. Polarized Squirrel, thanks for your support of the cause. Namely, as you guys know, 100% of super chats tonight are going to the Domestic Violence Action Center. This is going to make a difference in the world. We are striving because those are things that I think we agree on. Modern day debate has an eclectic community. People who are supporting the cause and excited about the future of modern day debate as this is just the beginning of our story. And the reason is because all of us agree on this. We think that everybody there deserves a fair shot to make their case on a level playing field. But also, we all think it's good to support those who are in a very real way suffering. Like there are very dark, just bleak spots in life where some people have experienced domestic violence, women or men, children, they're suffering. And these donations, 100% of them are going to go toward helping them. So we appreciate you guys supporting Modern Day Debate through all of your super chats tonight. Thank you for that. I feel okay. Thanks for coming by. I see you there in the old live chat. And thanks to Freak, says thanks, James. Good to see you. So loving the channel. Way to go. Thanks to Freak. Seriously, that means more than you know, I really do appreciate it. Thanks, Solverix, for your kind words, says love you, James. Soyboy, amazing. I love you too. Thanks for your support, seriously. And we are excited about the future of you guys. We appreciate it more than you know. Jackie N, thanks for your support. Thanks for your thumbs up. And Perfect One says there is still time to get some likes up on the boards. Hit the like button. You'll enjoy it. Thanks for that support. I appreciate that. Perfect One. But how is your guys' lives? Let me know in the old live chat. Like what's on your mind lately? What are you thinking about? I always like hearing what you guys are, what are you excited about? What are you passionate about lately? I'm pumped to hear it. And I want to say thank you guys. It's always fun here. Let's see here. I'll wait for you guys to respond because YouTube's just a little bit slow in terms of the stream and the connection to the, when I see, it's like a 30 second delay or so. So in other words, when I speak, you guys won't play on YouTube live for like another 25 seconds or so. So I'm watching the live chat. I'm waiting for your guys' response in terms of what you guys are up for. Thanks for your support. Kobyba, am I saying it right? Kobyba, we're glad that you were here. He says, you seem like a chill guy. Thanks for organizing this panel. Thanks for your support. Seriously, that means a lot. I do appreciate it and we're glad you're here. And it is true, we are glad you were here no matter what walk of life you were from. Whether you be politically left, politically right, Christian, atheist, Muslim, you name it. Gay, straight, black, white, Biden backer, Trump supporter, Bernie Bro, you name it. We are glad that you were here. We hope you feel welcome. Anthony Biondi says, yo James, just wanted to say keep up the great work. I've been following the channel for the past couple of years. You've grown the channel and have grown in your skills as a moderator. Thanks for that, Anthony. Seriously, that means a ton, brother. Totally appreciate that. Man, all of that, all the porno spam in the live chat. What is going on? But let's see here. It's getting pretty late. It's going on 10 in my time in mountain time. So I should actually go because it's really late. So I got to get to sleep. But I want to say thank you guys for your support. I love you guys. Thank you guys for hanging out. CG, I see you there in the live chat. Thanks for being with us. And I want to say thanks for all of your support, you guys. I hope you guys have a great rest of your night. Keep sifting out the reasonable. From the unreasonable, we'll see you at the next debate, which is tomorrow night, actually. We're going to be going pretty much every night now. Like for probably the rest of the year. So we're excited about that as we are kicking off big things at Moderate Debate, getting the ball rolling even more. Thank you guys for all of your support. Thanks for your love. I'm excited to see you at the next one. Like I said, we'll be live tomorrow night, as well as Wednesday night. Have a great rest of your night, and we'll see you at the next one. Amazing! And thanks so much for your donation through Venmo. We appreciate that support. I just saw that come in right now, Amanda. So thank you so much for that donation towards the Domestic Violence Action Center. We appreciate your support. Thanks so much for your kind words. And thanks guys. I love you guys. I hope you have a great rest of your night, and we'll see you at the next one.