 Welcome viewers to our ongoing program focus coming to you from Burlington, Vermont. Remotely from the studios of Channel 17 Town Meeting TV Center for Media and Democracy. I'm your host Margaret Harrington, and it gives me great pleasure viewers to welcome our guest William L. McCone, the author of Vermont's Irish Rebel. Captain John Lonergan, and that's the title of our program, Vermont's Irish Rebel Captain John Lonergan. And welcome, I'm going to call you Liam, the Irish for William. Welcome, Liam. Thank you so much for inviting us into your home and to do this wonderful talk. Welcome. Wow. Thank you so much and it's it's a, you wrote such a marvelous book that was published several years ago now in 2010, but I devoted reader of it. There's so much in it that tells the story of Captain John Lonergan who was forced to leave his home as birthplace in February, Ireland, and during the famine, right or right around the time of the famine, and come to he eventually made his way the child to Burlington, Vermont. He was a hero of Gettysburg in the Civil War, the Battle of Gettysburg and received the Medal of Honor from the United States, and all the time, he was devoted to the Finian movement, the liberation of Ireland. Liam, you, you told such a wonderful tale in your book, the story, his story. So could you share it, something of it with our viewers now as we come up to St. Patrick's Day? Again, the patrons think of Ireland. I'll be happy to thank you for your kind words, the introduction. Lonergan was responsible for the first St. Patrick's Day ever held in Burlington. That was one of the things that he did to promote the cause and to, to help Irish be more accepted into Vermont society. They initially weren't that welcome. They went too far back into the Irish history, although it's fascinating, no matter how deeply and not far back you go. Just by way of background, the Irish lost their independence to the British monarchy. And they lost their land to the British landlords. And things were very difficult, particularly for the Catholic population. So when a series of blights affected the main source of food for the, for the average Irish population, the potato famine, so called, had a lasting impact on, on the population and the history. And as you referenced, John Lonergan came over with his family about the time of what we think of as the famine, although it was really a series of crop failures. We had that same blight hit the gardens here in Vermont about three years ago that took out my tomatoes and a lot of other people's I think. So it's still around these pandemics don't tend not to go away. They just get under control. So at the time Ireland had about 8 million people. After 10 years of distress, which kind of culminated in 1847 that referred to as black 47 that was the worst of it. Two million out of the eight man had disappeared about a million died. And a million left the country. There was an uprising that was sparked in part by this dreadful conditions that were where food was being exported by the landlords while the tenants were starving in 1848. It was unsuccessful, but had a lasting impact. It was organized in part by a man named John O'Mahony, who lived about two miles down the road from John Lonergan. Just outside of Kirk unsure county temporary. O'Mahony was one of the more successful rebels in the 1848 attempt to overthrow the British rule. He fled to France with a man named James Stevens got involved in the revolutions over there. And then when O'Mahony came to New York City, about 10 years later, he founded a revolutionary group in New York City called the Fenian Brotherhood. O'Mahony was a was an Irish speaker. He was Irish as we say. And he translated a very seminal history of Ireland from the Gaelic into English. I'm a translator myself so I have an appreciation for, for what he did what he did there so when he founded this revolutionary group. He reached back to the history of Ireland. And warrior bands called Fina were at the call of the High King to protect the country. And the Agitai will form for Fina is Fenian. They should have used to ease because somebody will say Fenian, but it's Fenian. So he reached back for the for this reference to protecting Ireland from the foreign invaders and formed the Fenian Brotherhood. Well, John Lannigan was still just a lad, but he was growing up in Burlington. He worked as a Cooper with his father making barrels and they had a shop. And then in 1860, the situation in the United States was getting more and more critical in terms of the south and the north and the issue of slavery. And the militia units, which are official, but part time soldiers. It kind of fallen into disrepute and weren't doing much, but we're revived in the 18th, around 1860. Because people can see the chance of war coming. So Lannigan was, I believe, recruited to raise a unit by George standard out of St. Albans, who commanded a regiment of Vermont militia. So Lannigan saw this as an opportunity and it fit in with John O'Mahony's strategy. But Fenian militia units were being formed throughout the United States. And this gave them a chance to learn the art of war and get paid for it. Not much, but they have the state would sponsor these and throughout the United States there were companies often with fanciful names. There were emerald rifles and things like this that were very indicative of their, and they would populate the unit with Fenians, with Irishman. So Lannigan formed his own unit called the Emmett guards after Robert Emmett, who was executed 1801 for yet another unsuccessful rebellion. He formed that in Burlington and drew on the sizable Irish population in Burlington this time. It was quite successful and creating this official Vermont militia unit. In 1861, when Lincoln was inaugurated on the 4th of March and pled with everybody that we must not be enemies. Unsuccessfully six weeks later we were shooting each other and went on for four years. Lincoln had to call upon the state militias to provide the manpower to try and suppress this insurrection. Some states complied, some refused, others joined the successionist movement. So Lannigan's company, the Emmett guards, was called up for the second Vermont regiment. And he was commissioned as a captain and command of this company. Unfortunately, it was a muster Dan in Burlington. The muster was on a Saturday. And his company didn't show up. Apparently there was people saying farewell on Friday night. So he rounded him up the next day and got him all sworn in. But he's so angered the governor that the governor disbanded his unit, which didn't happen at any other time in the Civil War. Lannigan said, well, you can be rid of me in it, but you won't get rid of me. And he attached himself to the second Vermont regiment, went down and fought in Virginia for a while, stormed into the Secretary of War's office to demand restitution. And actually had an interview with the Secretary of War, was sent back to Vermont to raise another company. So just a remarkable brashness would have been 23 years old there, this Irishman. I'm sure he had a terrible brogue coming from temporary as a child. So he came back here under orders to go ahead and raise another company and 1863. Lincoln wanted to increase the manpower and he raised 300,000 men just to serve for nine months. So Lannigan got on board with this movement is a raised enough Irishman in Burlington and in Rutland. And a few non Irish out of Westford that he he knew these people so they got him got a sign up. And he formed this company. And when they assigned the letter designations for the companies it's always in seniority. So, right in character he claimed that he was the oldest captain around because he'd been been captain of a company in the second Vermont. So he became Company A of the 13th Vermont. This all ties in later with with his position on the battlefield at Gettysburg. So, in addition to raising troops for the American cause he was also the head of the Fenian Brotherhood in Vermont. So he was doing double duty. But, Margaret you mentioned a statement about the dual loyalty. I did go back in the book and I found that so let me just. Okay, I had to put my spectacles on to read it, but it is a good explanation. This was on a on a St. Patrick's Day. It was called upon to speak and concluded his impromptu speech with consideration of the dual loyalty of the Irish in America. On a day like this we should all be proud we're all from Ireland, and we should regard her with love and pride. And some might ask how an Irishman could love two countries at once, but an Irishman's heart was large and had room for both Ireland and America. When an Irishman takes a wife, if he is sometimes liable to do, does he therefore forget his mother. America is Irishman's wife, but he does not forget his mother Ireland. I'm glad you reminded me of that the other day because I think that's, that's a significant comment. Yes, yeah. And it shows it shows so much of his character of his enormous love for both the land of his adopted land and the land of his his birthplace. So willing to risk his life for either or both. And he was just the average citizen soldier he had no training other than his little time and militia there. And yet he became respected and honored combat veteran of the Civil War. And they get bought him some credit with the Fenians I think because a lot of Fenians went to war to learn the art of war, but a lot of them didn't come back. So should we spend a few minutes on Gettysburg before we. I would love that Gettysburg was one of the bloodiest battles of the Civil War. And of course it was where at the end of it Lincoln gave his famous Gettysburg address and, but also the carnage, the deaths on both sides were enormous. And so please do spend some time on it, and also about the ins and outs of it in your book is so full of the facts and yet the character and personality of Captain Lonergan comes through by his actions, how he reacted to different things. In fact, there was one that I did I just read now again rereading where he just before the Battle of Gettysburg. He was addressing his regiment as the captain of the regiment, and somebody else was addressing the regiment at the same time to recall that part of the of the book I mean it shows and then he just, he did he there was humor in it also, you know that he just it was the thing to do, and just get on with it. There had been a change in command the colonel was away. The major took charge and long and pulled out his weathered old commission that the governor taken away and said oh no I'm senior to us. But in the regiment he was initially most famous for on the march to get Gettysburg. He fell off his horse. And they were crossing the Monocacy River, which is in Maryland, and they fished him out. And he's that too wet on the outside not enough on the inside. But I had a good drinking man I would have fallen off the horse. He had the officers were mostly mounted as they marched to Gettysburg they marched 120 miles in July, June, July heat. In six days to get to Gettysburg in time to fight. That was like to, thanks to standard is old mentor who just taken over the brigade. The more than one of his, the men in his company remarked on the lot again would spent very little time riding his horse that he usually had somebody else, given them a break. Sometimes two or three guys hanging on to the does the stirrups, because they were, they were marching so hard. So he cared for his man, he respected him. And today of the school teacher down in Rutland. Again, I'm John Senate to be his first lieutenant. That's one of those the captain of the company 13 Senate was the first lieutenant. And then he got a guy out of the marble quarries in Rutland to be second lieutenant, six foot for marble worker. If there was every day discussion that need to be settled. His second lieutenant, because they pick them up by the scruff of the neck, that's a sir. So it was a mixed bag. Yeah, that's a lot of characters in this. They, the 12 or so members of the company from Westford. And once they realized they were caught in the middle of a Fenian Irish unit tried to get out of it. But he, he managed to convince him now that that they were better off they only had to serve their, their nine months, and they were exempt from any any further threat of the draft. And they had a pretty quiet time of it they were sitting on the Occoquan River. Out of Virginia. But they were the outermost defenses of Washington. And they were kind of isolated and alone out there. Operating on their own and it was a quiet area, except not one Lee headed north with his entire army. Suddenly they were attached to the army of the Potomac, and they were assigned to the core that was all the way to the front. And they had to catch up with them. And they almost got gobbled up by Stuart who brought these over 5000 cavalry men right through about an hour after they left. Anyway, they got up to get his bird in time for the fighting. But standard was pretty much on his own and he picked his spot. And he moved the Vermonters out in front. Because of the shelling that was going on. So when Pickett's famous charge took place of cemetery Hill on cemetery Ridge on the third of July. The Vermonters ended up in a position where standard ordered them out to swing out like a barn door and take the rebels in the flank. And then the van again led that charge because he was company a he held that the position of honor because of that. And he led that whole charge. So, how are we doing. Okay, well that's what we're doing well on the time we have. We're about 20 minutes in now, but but I thank you for the that description in the battle of Gettysburg. You speak to the, the next party he he he rated a house and they got out a lot of the Confederate army right, and they, they, they really arrested double the in one number of of to them right. It was the one again received the, the Medal of Honor and you correctly said received or awarded. It's not something you went and it's not for a contest. It was awarded that for gallantry. Actually for the recapture of some cannon on the night of the of July 20, July 2nd. And after they recovered the cannon, which the rebels had taken over. They had charged down the hill with what they said was a wild Irish cry by fog about which is the Irish for clear the way the old Bible cry. They got the cannon back and then his colonel said, can you do something about those rebels that are shooting at us from the house he said I can they went over, pounded on the door demanded that they all come out and was a little bit taken twice as many of them came out as he had meant but but he'd he'd captured them and and marched them back. The famous story was that these guys had just arrived the providers and these old hands said, what boys are you. I said, I were the Green Mountain boys. I said, we knew you were green because we would never gone down there. We were in a risky business, but he but he did it so they they lost four men from the company killed another half dozen wounded. Several of them are buried there and get his burger and regularly go down to tip my hat to to them and get his burger and of course the long again that is his grave which is in St. Joseph's. They got back. Wait a minute. Where is where is Captain Lonergan's grave. St. Joseph's Archibald Street in Burlington. Okay, yes, I can see the cemetery from my window. You haven't been there you should. Yes, people should go. I'll meet you there. So, above the ground, above the ground. Listen, now, let's let's go to the to the return. After the the civil after the civil war was over then, and the Finians were then re emerging to the purpose of the innovation. I will throw in a quick description of the return of Lonergan and his, his man, most of them he dropped off in Rutland where they came back but they came into Burlington and received his heroes in city square with quite, quite big to do. There is a historical marker on St. Paul's street at city square city hall square, describing Lonergan and his exploits in this in the civil war. So by the time they civil war ended in 1865, the surviving Finians on both sides were ready to get back to the business of freeing Ireland. And as sometimes happens among Irish, not everybody agreed on how to do things. There was quite a discussion about whether they, they all pack their muskets and get on a ship and go to Ireland or some people who didn't want to risk that voice that we can strike a blow against the British Empire. Let's grab Canada and hold it hostage for Ireland. So there was a faction that did this and in 1866, there was quite a significant incursion into Canada, led mostly by a fellow named John O'Neill, former officer in the Union Army, who crossed over from Buffalo, New York, and went across the Niagara River there. And there was quite a, quite a to do over there with a couple of dozen men actually killed and some international concerns about this. Meanwhile, there was another branch that went across from Vermont and attack the Eastern townships of Canada. There's more in the red nature of a demonstration of the Irish cause than any hopes really of taking several hundred men and occupying Canada. I think you'd need a few more than that. It's really enough of a scaring of the British show that that's how Canada became a country. It was just provinces up to that point in 1866. I said, you guys have to defend yourselves. And they made Canada a dominion. That's why Canada Day is the first of July, 1867. The direct result of this attack by the Irish. Now the Irish were being used to some extent by President Johnson, who had succeeded after the presidency after thinking was assassinated. They were trying to get money out of the British for their support of the Confederacy. And after this little incursion of them saying hey we got several hundred thousand angry experienced Irish veterans you want us to push them across the border again. The British in fact did pay up for the damage they've done to the US shipping in particular. Meanwhile, there were events taking place back in Ireland and a lot of Finians went to Ireland and there was a series of uprisings. None of them. That's successful. But the cost continued. Then in 1870. There was another attempt to attack Canada. This time they decided not to try to cross Niagara River so they, the, the one prong of the attack went from Malone, New York, because you could walk from Malone across the border. And the other again, she was staged in St. Albans. Irishman came from all over the United States. Many of them ex Confederates. And came to St. Albans work their way up to Fairfield, where the farmers up there had been storing the weapons that they needed for this attack on Canada. And it was timed to catch the Canadians off guard while they were celebrating Queen Victoria's birthday. Unfortunately, the, the cause was riddled with informers. And the newspapers were full of the, the Fenian intentions. So came as no surprise to the, to the Canadians, they were anticipating the attack. And the, the police was quickly stopped at the border. Mainly by a group of citizen soldiers called home guards. Now one guy in particular was upset because the last time the, the Irish you come up there, they've broken into his house and destroyed his piano. So he's supposedly the guy that fired the first shot. And it killed a young fireman from Burlington. There's a, there's a very moving photo of his body there. So there was another fellow and that was John Rowe and another fellow named William O'Brien from Mariah New York were both killed and a number of people wounded, all on the Irish side. This was all under the command of John O'Neill again, the fellow that had done a credible job when they went across from Buffalo in 1866. But he had been warned by the US Marshal in Burlington. It was a strapping fellow that was the last commander of the Vermont Brigade in the Civil War. And he warned them and he went over and he told the Canadians what the Irish were up to, and he came back and the Irish went across, and he grabbed O'Neill by the scruff of the neck, threw him in his carriage and took him back to Burlington, where he was tried for violation of neutrality and served the term of, and the Windsor prison in Vermont. In Atlanta where the Fenians tapered off, the cause took on other names like Clan Nagel. But the Fenians had made an impression. There was still, the term is still used derogatorily to describe Irish nationalists by those who disapprove of the nationalism. The Fenian B with an expletive afterwards. And it became very much a part of the heritage, the historical nature, the identification of the movement for Irish nationalism. And then he goes back to John Omani from his farm up on Muller, out on St. John's Road just outside of Caracol and sure. And John Lottigan playing as a child down there on the on the Glen River and the Glen Ngapuka, the valley of the Puka, which is a, is like a witch-like figure. And it all ties together. Great stories of Finn McCool, who was one of the original leaders of the Fenians, the Fina that fought for the High Kings back in the early, early centuries of the current era. So what else would we want to. I don't know. I'm so moved by your, your, your encapsulation of the whole movement now. And I think that it's a wonderful thing that you have brought this alive to us, even in this short interview. And we want to mention the Champlain Valley National Heritage Partnership, from whom you have received a grant to do what, Liam. To commemorate the 150th anniversary of the 1870 attack. This was all supposed to happen last year. I gave the first of a series of lectures on the 9th of March, and then the, the ceiling fell in. So we're approaching it virtually and I would invite folks to check the Fenian Historical Society.org website in the next few weeks I'll be offering webinar series focused on the Fenian history and more detail than the wherever the cover here. So we'll be, we'll be there and also, Liam, we should mention the, the Burlington Irish Heritage Festival, which is going on right now and it's at www.burlington irish heritage.org, and it was at one of the those events in the last few years where I first met you and attended your wonderful talk about the Fenians. So, so Liam I'm so grateful to you and we all are here at Channel 17 Center for Median Democracy and for your, your, your on your story, the way you told it you tell it, and you embody all of that. The historical passion that you, you keep on going with your writing and your communication like it in this. So it's a reminder that one man can make a difference. People that believe in the cause and work for it and are willing to sacrifice can can ultimately make a difference. Yes. Fenians were a reference when when they when Ireland finally gained at least partial independence in the Easter uprising of 1917. There was a man named Patrick Pierce that led the, the group that occupied the general post office in Dublin. And before he had spoken at a at the burial of Jeremiah O'Donovan Rossa, an unrepentant Fenian. And he pierced said about the British he said, the fools, the fools, the fools, they've left us are Fenian dead. As long as we have these graves. Ireland unfree will Ireland unfree will ever be at peace. So very direct lineage from what the Fenians did to the to the current status of Ireland, where it's at least partially independent or Republic of Ireland. 26 counties. Thank you so much Liam for your wonderful talk now and we'll look forward to hearing more from about about the story of the history, but from the Champlain Valley National Heritage partnership talks that you will give and and hopefully you'll return to us here on Channel 17. Always welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you for the, for the invitation. Sloan. Launcher sluncher girl Molly.