 We're really at an exciting place when we're talking about this conversation, you know, having it all was sort of, it became something to kind of make fun of, you know, something that was sort of seen as an elite kind of a privilege sort of thing. And I think what's so interesting is that we're at a point where we're realizing, first of all, we have to figure out, well, what does all mean, and who are we talking about when we talk about having it all? Because for so long, just as Ann Marie said, this was a conversation that pretty much took place in the white middle class and upper middle class community. And that obviously is a portion, just a portion of our very dynamic, unique, and very diverse country. And so that's part of what we're going to be talking about today, is what does having it all mean across class, across gender, across communities of color and LGBT community. So with us today on the panel, we've got Jessica Gonzalez Rojas, and she is the Executive Director of the National Latina Institute for Reproductive Health. We're going to be talking about the Latina community. And then we have Leroy Hughes, who is the Executive Director of the Concerned Black Men National. And I'm just, I'm going to let them talk a little bit about their work, but get the conversation started, and then we'll open it up for everybody's questions. So let me start with you, Jessica. So this is a conversation that has been in the national mind sort of seen as kind of a privileged conversation, having it all, having work-life balance. You know, and now we're talking about work-life fit or work-life integration, but really for, you know, privileged or middle class or upper middle class and largely white communities. What does work-life fit, work-life, what are the challenges in the Latina and Latino community? And let's talk about challenges, and then we'll talk about solutions. Well, thank you for having me. Our organization is dedicated to advancing Latina power in the communities around issues of reproductive health, rights, and justice. And I think the conversation can't be addressed in separately from the issues of health and reproductive health in particular. We have to look at ways that technological advancements in reproductive health technology has allowed for women to make a lot of these decisions. Having access to birth control contraception has allowed people to determine the timing and spacing of their families. However, for Latinas and other women of color, we're often marginalized from the health care system. One in three Latinos don't have health care, and many of us are denied access to the critical care that we need. The part of the conversation too that I want to speak to is the fact that many of what Emery had talked about, the ability to make choices and make the decision whether or not to work, is often separated from the fact that those often caring for their children are women of color and immigrant women. Those women are often uncompensated appropriately for their work and that work is often times undervalued. There's often lack of workplace protections and often pregnancy and discrimination. A lot of home caregivers are not given access to pay time off, health insurance, a living wage. So we have to make sure we're integrating that into that conversation. Latinas in general make 56 cents per dollar a white man makes. That's almost half. Latinas in California make about 44 cents every white man makes. So we have to look at the lack of equality in wages and again the valuing of the work. Talk about valuing care and those who provide care and love and nurturing of the children while many of these women who are privileged and able to work, that's essential to being able to make that. We have to make sure we're ensuring that we're paying those folks living wages and we're thinking about their access to health care, their access to pay time off, their access to full protections in the workplace, whether that workplace is your home or a center, a caregiving center. So I want to make sure that's integrated into the conversation because many times those people are women of color, are Latinas, are immigrant women. So I feel like that needs to be centered in this conversation. Excellent. Thank you so much. It's interesting when I was working on my book, Overwhelmed about Time Pressure and Modern Life, I started it very much reporting about the time pressure and really the craziness that a lot of people feel in all walks of life. But I think what really struck me is that when you talk about immigrant communities and I spent some time with immigrant communities or more low income or blue collar workers, we think we're stressed out and we've got education and resources. You talk about somebody who's got to take three buses to get to a job and then one bus breaks down or I spent time in line with people trying to get childcare subsidies, which there are so many more people who have the need than there are subsidies available. And then you started standing in line at three in the morning. The system was set up to help low income folks with welfare reform to have childcare and yet the system was set up in such a way that people were losing their jobs and not able to graduate or get their degrees because they were standing in line so long to get them. So I think that that's a really important point that you make looking at the systems that we set up and how they work and don't work. And just to add actually, you know, a lot of those folks that we work with on the ground are many of them are undocumented workers. So they are ineligible for a lot of the benefits that are set up for the safety net for low income families. So, you know, we work in the Rio Grande Valley in Texas and there's a woman who tells her story about caring for someone's home, right? She cleans their home and she says sometimes I get $50, sometimes I get $10, sometimes I don't get paid at all. I clean their home and I don't get paid. And she says it depends on the quality of the person. So, you know, you can't sustain a life. And she's someone whose daughter was deported. She's caring for her citizen grandchildren. Her husband was captured and deported and, you know, it's such a tenuous life and she's working really hard and waiting, you know, there's no transportation. She's waiting for a bus. It's a very precarious system. There's not a lot of infrastructure in those communities and she's not even getting paid for the work that she does. So we have to remember that people are often excluded and marginalized from even the safety net programs that exist that are so important but still does not include a lot of the workers in this country. So, Leroy, let's talk about your work and let's talk about the African-American community. I think one of the things that strikes me when we do reporting on this or we, in the conversation, a lot of people talk about the 1950s as, you know, this nostalgic, wonderful time when there was, you know, one breadwinner and one homemaker and what they forget is that only applied to a very narrow portion of our society and in the African-American community. You've always had working mothers. You've always had dual income couples. Talk about the challenges for kind of having it all in the African-American community and the work you do. Absolutely. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. My name is Leroy Hughes. I'm the executive director with Concern Black Men National. We are a national social service organization that focuses on youth and prevention services, which includes teen pregnancy prevention, substance abuse prevention, HIV-age prevention, parent and family services. We target fatherhood initiatives, adult literacy, workforce development, case management services, as well as volunteer mentoring services that focuses on academic achievement, one-to-one in-group mentoring through several of our satellite offices as well as through our affiliate chapter network. Clearly, there seems to be a step back in time as far as what the African-American community is going through right now. You simply need to take a look at the socioeconomic challenges that the black community continues to face. You take a look at the number of single-parent homes, the amount of black men who are incarcerated. A lot of the resources in our communities are underserved, if you will. There are some practical implications in terms of actually being able to have it all. Throughout the years, we've had a lot of conversations about cultural diversity, even sensitivity training. I had a conversation with one of my employees on yesterday, and I talked about the fact that we needed a workplace, something called workplace sensitivity. By that I mean we need to understand the challenges that people of color are facing that really prevents them from having it all. For example, if you're in a single-parent home and you're the primary breadwinner, you've got to work 50 to 60 hours per week just to keep the lights on. There's going to be some practical implications of that that's going to affect the kids, their school and their education, their sleep patterns, even their diet. And so that being said, there's some sacrifices that are made on a daily basis. Now the problem with that is not so much a predicament, but unfortunately over the years it's become a lifestyle. It's become a way of living because a lot of folks in the African-American community, because of challenges, they've been forced, if you will, to accept this as the norm, when in fact it should not be. I believe in order for us to have it all in a workplace environment, your basic needs need to be met. Because it's important to reach goals and objectives in a workplace environment, but by the same token I think it's important to also have quality of life to really push those things forward. I'm in the non-profit sector and I think what keeps me going is wellness. If my mental state of mind is not on point, the rest of me just kind of goes like that. I tell a lot of people before I went into the non-profit sector, I weighed 300 pounds like every now. But the bottom line is it is about really figuring out a way within our society to empower our community so that everyone has a fair shot to be in a position where they can be close to having it all. But what does that mean? So I think in order to understand what that means, I think we have to take a baseline analysis in terms of what really makes a family whole. So if we've got a single parent household, what resources do we need to provide that community in order for that family to get what they need in order to raise themselves out of poverty or what have you? If someone is working 50 to 60 hours a week, we need to take a look at their workplace environment and how do we level that off so that those children can get what they need with proper parenting, assistance with homework, or participation in athletic programs, so on and so forth. Basically what I'm saying is very global, because we can talk about this for the next three months and we still would not be done with this conversation. But that is to say that what's ironic to me is that while we have made gains, we have made some significant advances in terms of culture in our society, we've still gone backwards because of the disparity in terms of the have and have nots. We have to get to a point within the country where we have a level playing field. And I think we can do that. I'm often amazed how we find the time, the resources, and the wherewithal to figure out how rocks look on Pluto, but we cannot resolve what's happening across the street on the next town or in the next city. There's something inherently wrong with that. There's enough brain power, there's enough intellectual wherewithal within this country whereby we can figure this out and do it in such a way that we can make a more equitable society here within our country. Now I do understand that there's no perfect elixir, that there's no miracle whereby we can do it within a day or two. But I do think if we make steps toward that direction, we do create what's called the more perfect union. And I think it needs to start now, because if we don't deal with the issues now as far as our families are concerned, whether you're a person of color or not, we will have to deal with those implications later. We can't continue to look past the idea that whether you're red, black, white, green, if your needs aren't being met, if you aren't in a position to embrace the American dream, if we don't deal with that, there are going to be implications that will eventually affect everyone in this room. So there's no way you can just get in your bubble, even if you have it all without being impacted by someone who don't have close to what you have, because at some point it's going to affect you. I think it's an all of our benefit, if you will, to try to think through social policy issues, legislation. We have to think about collaborations, resources, to bring our communities up to the next level. I think it's important for us to continue to have conversations like this, so that policy can be discussed in such a way that it permeates throughout our school systems, throughout our civic groups, community-based organizations that champion this work that begin to really focus on how do we raise families up if they need support from those of us who do have resources. And so that's my thoughts on this. I mean, I know I'm kind of all over the place, but in the nonprofit sector, I mean, we're jack of all trades. Maybe a master of none. And so we deal with these types of issues on a daily basis, and so sometimes there's a lot of clutter, but we're focused on the clutter, and what we're trying to do is defragment it, if you will, so that we can have a clear picture in terms of trying to find solutions. So I hope it gives you some insight. I hope I've answered your question. That's been great. I think one of the things that strikes me in what you're talking about is the sense that, you know, broadening the conversation is really in everybody's best interests. Absolutely. Whereas I think it's been very kind of segmented before and sort of not seen as something that pertains all across community. And I think, you know, I'd like you to comment on some of the, to me, one of the most amazing kind of confluence of different interests that I've seen is like military groups, CEOs, all sorts of different activists coming together around early childhood education and really good caregiving because of really great research showing that your return on investment is greater than the stock market. And so that sort of like gets people's eyes open and it's like, oh, this is the next generation. This is our future. Let's invest. Is that something that you've seen kind of changing the conversation or changing the tenor of the debate? Absolutely. Everything that you've just said, and I would add to that, even mental health because everyone is beginning to understand the practical implications of addressing these issues because they affect us all. And I think we've looked at issues in a topical way. We really didn't get to the root of the cause issues as far as what's going on, you know, in societies that are, communities rather than underserved. We have a cross-section of culture within this country these days. You're no longer in a situation where you can kind of live on your own island. Perhaps we can attribute that to social media. Perhaps we can attribute it to this age of technology whereby we're more connected than what we think. And so everyone is beginning to understand that, you know, what happens on the other side of the country will have an impact on me, will have an impact on my family, will have an impact on my community. And so in order to fix this, we've got to have a common interest and we've got to have some sort of action plan to identify common solutions. And so there's a hundred ways that we can go about it, but as long as we understand that, you know, what's ever happening within this country will have practical implications across the board. The better off we'll be in terms of, you know, getting us to a place where we can possibly be close to having it all. All right. Well, good. I want to talk to some of those solutions in a minute. But let me introduce our final panelist. Hello. This is Darby Hickey. And she is a former New America staffer and currently working for council member David Grosso. And she is a transgender activist. Also works on sex worker rights. And so we'd love to hear from you and the perspective of kind of the having it all question, you know, kind of in the transgender, you know, LGBT community. Sure. Thanks so much and thanks for the great comments so far. It feels like really exciting conversation to contribute to. I was thinking about a conversation I had last night with a good friend of mine about, and I think it relates to this about kind of career goals and idealism and reaching an older age and moment in your life where maybe you realize some goals you've set are not going to be accomplished and some idealism you had about things that you might be able to change no longer is there. And maybe the idealism is gone. And yet, such as myself, such as my friend, when you have no family support net, when the only support network that there's going to be out there is either chosen family and friends or social services, you have no choice but to keep moving. You cannot stop and say, oh, but those are my career goals and maybe if I went and did this, then it would help me move there. I have a table for myself, for my son. I have to think about the medical bills from the accident I had earlier in the month. And I think that everything that's already been discussed and touched on really goes to that and how this kind of concept of what does kind of having it all mean and all that it encompasses, which I think going back to the point about early childhood education is a great one. I think another area is trauma and mental health. And I think that's a huge issue in many communities, including in the LGBT and particularly the transgender context, where just everyday existence, and certainly it's the same with racism and sexism, everyday existence is a mental health challenge. And where is the space when between running to drop the kid off at school, getting to work a little bit late every time because you can't drop the kid off early enough, with the comments and interactions throughout the day, running home, making dinner, where is that moment to address those needs? And I think that also what's interesting is we talk about like how do you open up this conversation. It's also how this conversation is, I guess it's a two-way street, right, that this conversation has been defined in certain ways and as applying to certain people these ideals of what it used to be and what it wasn't ever. Also, the flip side is a euphoria, for example, over the gay marriage decision of the Supreme Court and how that might not actually have any bearing on these kind of day-to-day issues that we're talking about. It certainly does in some ways and yet in so many other ways it does not. It's a lot of the battle cries now, well you can get married in the morning in however many states and be fired in the afternoon for being gay or lesbian, bi, trans. The reality is that you might not even ever get hired there and then there's also this whole piece of specialist we talk about work-life balance of work-life separation and that I can actually bring my full self to these parts of my work or even my life, such as say my school PTA or interacting with my teachers, my son's teachers, where it's suddenly this whole other piece to navigate of, oh well yes, actually I think it's okay that he likes pink but it actually has nothing to do with the fact of who I am and then how does that conversation play out and no, I'm not actually indoctrinating my child because I'm letting him experiment and feel fluidity in different ways and so all these different borders that we have to navigate including geopolitical ones that really affect this ability of what the all is and what the balance even, where the balance lies, I think, in a way. Such great points. One of the things that strikes me, we think about having it all, that there would be not only work-life balance but sort of a space for yourself for their mental health, peace of mind and we tend to think of that as also a privileged idea and yet in one of the very early union efforts, the mill worker strike, they sang the song, they say we fight for bread but we also fight for roses too, that everybody has always needed time for work, time for love and family and time for roses as well. So let's talk a little bit about solutions and then we'll open it up to questions. You know, we talk about structures and so many of our structures are still very much stuck in a past, whether the 1950s or 60s, President Obama has called it mad men era policies, just like Emery had said. You know, you talk about school systems, you know, I think one of the things there's really great research on schedule and schedule control and how great it is to have flexibility that only really applies to certain types of workers and for hourly workers or wage workers or caregivers. You don't have that same sense of control. You know, what are some solutions, policy solutions, cultural solutions, what are some things that we could and should be looking at and working for? Let's start with you, Jessica. The way in which we approach our work at the National Latina Institute for Reproductive Health is by centering those most impacted. So we believe those most impacted are the agents of change. We also believe that the work through the work we do, we know that our community are leaders and have leadership, but oftentimes it's not elevated in a way to create sustained change because of all the challenges in their life when all the things that were mentioned, you know, raising a family, trying to get work, trying to get healthcare access, trying to get just the basic needs met. You know, oftentimes one thing I wanted to add too is that, you know, sometimes this conversation, again, sits at an elite level because our communities are struggling to survive. But when we invest in community, when we invest in people, when we work to build power and elevate that power, again, not create it, these are leaders. They're leaders. Women are the backbones of families and communities. These are leaders. These are individuals and resources to do advocacy, to speak out, to raise the issue, to tell their stories, to testify in front of elected officials. That is a place where we will see change. It is critical to engage the community, engage those most impacted to be the voices of change. I am here and I'm sit on the shoulders of thousands of Latinas who are fighting every day for their families, for their communities, for their work of care, access to a living wage. Those are the people that I feel indebted to because they are the driving force. And when we create space and elevate those opportunities, that's when we'll see change. So I really believe in people power and working to dismantle the structural issues that exist and looking at policy solutions and looking at culture shift. You know, when we devalue caregiving, we devalue the work that many of our community does. When we devalue different types of work, domestic work, that's also a devalue of care of our community. So we need to value the work that's being done. We need to pay a living wage. We need to provide the protections. And we need to center those most impacted. Great. I love that. The idea of policy change is also as well as cultural shifts. Leroy, what about you? Well, certainly I would echo rather what my colleague just said here. All of that was on point. I think we need to return to the basics. I think oftentimes in this capitalist society, we don't think about the basics in terms of our families. That's where we start. At Concern Blackman National, we invest in our kids because we know that if we invest in our kids, it's going to impact their family structure. So that's why we created our adult families, our parent and family services division, excuse me, because we understood that, or we understand rather, that it's not enough just to invest in children. We've got to invest in families. You know, there's this presumption that good parenting happens by osmosis. It does not. You know, we need to be trained. We need to be taught. We need to be guided because I keep talking about the practical implications. I mean, you need to get return on your investment and the way you invest is to engage. And so, within my organization, we approach our programming efforts in such a way that we create very clear goals and objectives so that we can reach certain outcomes because we are looking for change. We're looking for success because we understand that if our kids are successful and our families are successful, we build strong communities. I would also say a good solution is respecting community-based organizations or supporting community-based organizations that really emphasize the development of evidence-based programming and being able to do that and collect data. You can publish that information and your work is respected. It's credible. You can get it funded and you can make an impact. And then that allows you to actually have an impact on policy. You can sit at the table. You can talk about the data and you can make the case for what's actually happening with families in your community. And I think that's one of the ways you build a foundation to get in families to where they need to be so they can be empowered and it's going to grab hold. And so there's going to be a return on an investment but it needs to start someplace. I recall listening to these news reports when the Baltimore unrest happened, if you will. And someone said something very simple but yet profound. Before you develop the inner harbor, you've got to develop the outer harbor. So what do we need to do first? Look at our communities. Look at the people. You've got to build people before you build business because if you don't build on people, then that business can't support an infrastructure that doesn't have the resources or wealth at all to keep those businesses going. And so we've got to invest in our kids. We've got to invest in our families. Those families build good communities. You collect data from work with organizations that actually have community evidence-based programming. You're able to engage in policy. You have conversations with politicians. You create legislation. And so you have systemic change. And I know it's not that simple but perhaps that's a way that we can work towards these solutions that's really great. Evidence-based programming is so interesting. And you talk about cultural shift and changing the narrative almost allowing for more voices in the African-American community. I think there's really interesting research that's emerging. People tend to think absentee fathers. They don't really care. Everything's left on moms. And Kathy Eden and others are doing really fascinating work just showing how involved a lot of African-American fathers are and the challenges that they face as well. It's really very interesting. I think the one thing we need to ensure that we're supporting the leadership of communities of color and women of color of all the thousands of people who served in Congress, only nine have been Latinas. And when we don't have elected officials who reflect our community and reflect a growing, powerful population in this country our interests are left out. We often joke if we're not at the table we're on the menu. So it's important that we're at the table and that we as a community are supporting those leaders who step out to engage in public service and that we're rallying around that because it's a very challenging role and they need the community behind them. So a lot of the work we do is civic engagement having people understand political power. But it's important to support leadership of women and communities of color. Darry, let's turn to you and your thoughts. I completely support everything that's been said and want to pick up on kind of that last piece. I think, especially resources is such a critical issue we talk about and Jessica was saying so eloquently how things change is people organized and they pressure things to change. But there are not resources put towards that. In all of my years as an activist and working on issues when I was lucky enough to get paid to be an activist it was very very little. And I think that in a way then leads us to another thing. So I think absolutely resources and it has to be resources have to be put to the leadership of those most impacted and those most urgently impacted as well which is a new kind of framework talking with people about is a way to kind of get beyond a ranking or kind of Olympics of oppression but we can see where is the urgency who is being killed literally right now and who is being which communities are being particularly devastated most urgently by XYZ practices so that you don't call me up and say oh can you get some transgender women of color to come to our conference and well we can sure we compare the airfare but not a per diem or not a stipend to pay for the fact that they'll have to miss work or some income generating opportunity. And then I think that then kind of flips the whole conversation on its head almost in a way which is another part of this and which is exactly what we're doing right is even as this kind of have it all and what is work life balance like for so many of us especially those of us that come from low income backgrounds or are continue to be in low income situations and are passionate about change it's all the same it's work and life is all together and we can't separate it out per se in that very kind of it really is a very middle class or upper class perspective of like oh you go to the office and you do that and then you go home and you have this separation and it's like no I'm fighting for my people every day and that may or may not be how I'm getting paid I'm getting my check and I think another piece that I'm thinking about right now is just drawing on really recent experiences I had I'm so lucky right now to be in that kind of professional middle class job where I was in a terrible bicycle accident I couldn't go to work for weeks even now that I'm back at work I keep having to leave to go to medical appointments to try to see a neurologist to deal with pain you know in so many other jobs I've had in my life I would have lost my job immediately and I'm just so fortunate to be in this situation where I'm you know I'm afforded that by my employer by policies that are in place by laws that are in place and that's certainly something we're working on in DC is just continually trying to push the boundaries of what's considered normal in terms of the medical leave and family leave and the reasons for medical leave or family leave we've got now up to six weeks of paid leave to take care of another so I couldn't take that to take care of myself but nonetheless that's a real improvement and it's unfortunately currently only for DC government employees but we're trying to push the conversation and get that in the private sector in DC as well and I think that that and that comes back to kind of some of the stuff talked about before like scheduling and how I think that's another kind of huge movement right now is about scheduling and dependability of schedules and the ability to have a say on your own schedule that goes how do we bring that into more situations rather than the certain sectors that currently have that privilege I want to open it up for questions a little bit but to that point Darby that's such a good point because I think what's really interesting is that there are places that are making changes like that and so the more that's one of the things I try to do as a writer is highlight where some of those changes are to show that it can be done and how so let's open it up for questions Hi how do you change the culture within an organization that is hesitant to change where they're hesitant to implementing a flexible workplace policy for their employees where they may actually view those who actually use the flexible work policy as poor performers Anybody want to take that one I can only speak for myself we and we're a social justice organization so our values are rooted in social justice values so for example we're an organization that is less than 50 employees but we give a 12 week paid maternity parental leave actually parental leave policy so whether it's caring for bonding time for an adopted child or birth we give that time for all employees we also we were doing a lot of advocacy around the fight for 15 for workers in New York and we actually had a step back and be like do we pay everyone at least $15 an hour including our interns yes we do so that's a value that we hold so we can't have perhaps tons of interns and we also have people like I want to work for free we're like no it's a value of our organization to pay you and you know it's important to us so that's something so it's really kind of checking your values unfortunately not all employers have those social justice values and do sort of self-assessment to ensure those policies are in place but perhaps you know look for organizations and even when interviewing you know ask those questions like what are the values the culture of the organization and institution and how do they live those values particularly in the social justice or nonprofit sector you talked about evidence based and data for programs for you know for social change what about that same kind of approach for cultural change within organizations there's lots of really great data that shows when you have healthy happy workers who can take care of you know do their meaningful work but take care of their families they actually do better work they're more productive they're not sick as often the NIH has been doing lots of research on that you know do you have some thoughts on that in terms of culture change? Absolutely I think it's important for any organization especially nonprofit organizations to really emphasize wellness I do a gut check with my staff every month every senior manager every middle manager all of the employees in the trenches to really get an appreciation where are they in terms of their perspective about their workplace environment and you can't please everyone but you can get a post and that can actually impact whatever policies you put in place to support your personnel there's a saying happy wife happy life well in theory the same thing goes with employees in the workplace environment because we live in such a fast-paced life society excuse me you need to stay connected to your employees six seven years ago the average age at concern black men national was 33 years old now it's 50 we have a changing demographic and we need to be responsive to those needs we look at everything from our health insurance to our vacation days to flex schedules we've we needed to make some hard decisions because we are primarily supported by federal grants and so we have a limited capacity to do a lot of creative things so we try to be creative within our capacity as far as meeting the needs of our employees and so we have conversations with our board I have conversations with my management team we get feedback and then we come together to try to come up with policies that are conducive if you will to the workplace environment we get feedback from our employees I think it's important to not wait until someone is in hot water to have an exit interview you need to have ongoing conversations with your employees through daily supervision bi-weekly supervision and what have you that needs to be incorporated into your oversight structure so that you can stay connected to personnel I think when employees feel disconnected apathy kicks in and that's when people really begin to question as to whether they're actually making a contribution so I think when you're connected to your employees when you're having conversations when you have buy-in you can create policies that I think will help carry and support an organization as opposed to being disconnected and having employees feel like they're not contributing Darby did you want to add to that I would just say that I remember when I ran a small organization here in D.C. with less than five employees we just didn't have the resources to be able to offer some of the fantastic and important things that Jessica was talking about and what we tried to do I think that's kind of what Leroy was getting at is we tried again to work within our means okay we can't pay you X amount or we can't offer this number of weeks of paid leave but let's do everything we can to work with you on setting your schedule and making it as workable for you as possible let's have kind of a default assumption that if you're running late you have to check in but we're not going to assume it's like malfeasance but it's rather just like life getting in the way and this kind of regular check in like Leroy was mentioning I think is so critical I think leadership is a huge thing I don't know how you can it's really difficult to change your organization if you don't have leadership committed to it and leadership comes in different ways because back to what Jessica was saying if folks in the lower rungs really rise up then they can make some change I think small steps is a great place to start I remember actually here at New America the Open Technology Institute we were trying to tackle some issues around kind of structural racism and having a working in a sector where racism is very which sector it's not real I'm not sure but it's very blatantly apparent in the tech sector we started with brown bag lunches on Fridays talking about what can we do to change the culture here to make it an explicitly anti-racist and anti-sexist organizational culture within the group did that change policies overnight no way but it was part of the culture change I think excellent well thank you all so much for the really fascinating conversation and sharing your insights and stories