 Thank you again for bearing out with us till the end of this day and what an amazing way to end up, but this amazing group. So I will start with Rosalind. Big round of applause for Rosalind. Karen, Matt, Matt from California. I told you that I'm going to do that joke. Sorry. Sima and Noel, please, if you can start introducing for the ones that don't know you, who you are, like you can start and then you can ask your guests to introduce themselves. Cool. Thank you very much. Cool. So my name is Noel and I am in the agency business and have been for a very long time but also involved with the WordPress community for even longer and I will have a lot of fun hosting this panel today. Matt? My name is Matt Cromwell. I'm one of the co-founders of GiveWP, the donation plugin for WordPress and now at StellarWP doing customer experience and marketing. So I'm Karen. I'm the co-founder from the agency Required. So we do design and WordPress development and yeah, my domain is UX design but I do also a lot of managing stuff. I'm Sima. I'm part of Mourntalk. We mostly focus on content-first platforms with WordPress. So that's like automating content, for example, from a publishing company and then you automate it to print. I'm also writing for publishing block and that's also my domain, publishing. Hi everyone, Roslyn. I am from South Africa originally. I recently moved to Switzerland. I have been working, I started with WordPress and with commerce kind of from the freelance aside many, many years ago and most recently I've worked mostly in the payments business. I currently work at WordPress within the payment partnerships team. Amazing. As you can see it's a very diverse team or group of panelists today that have a lot of experience and I hope we can get a very good conversation going that extends beyond this room and beyond this conversation today. So zooming back or going back in time a bit, I'd say over 10 years now, I created the first meetup group I think in Switzerland even with the meetup group Zurich and at the time I had sent one message to Sylvan over here at the back who's waving. You can keep waving a little bit and I said, hey, I'm gonna organize this group. Are you in? Might. Question mark, exclamation mark, question mark. You must be kidding me. I thought of building a WordPress meetup in Zurich myself. Thanks for the work. I'm in. Cheers. And that's how these things begin and that's amazing and that's what I've always loved about this community is how we've always been together for these things and WordPress has enjoyed a lot of growth since then. It's been really amazing and we are coming up to the 20th year anniversary which is quite crazy in less than two months. May 27th is the big day for 20 years but in the recent years we've also you know seen a lot of change like these these last couple years with the pandemic, with the economic changes, we've seen the technology landscape explode, collapse, come back up and that is supposedly a revolution. I'm not going to say any other words or keywords but we are here at the precipice of potentially something new or we continue with a lot of the old. Who knows? So let's chat about this now. I'm going to start with you here and I'm going to give you a bit of a I'll give you a choice. Do you want to go first or last? Last. Okay. Karen, we'll start with you. You can blame Matt after. So let's get this going with a bit of speed let's say. I'll give you just you know 10, 15 seconds or whatever to come up with three words that you think describe the future of WordPress in 2025. I knew I was going to keep this interesting. Okay. Just three words. Stealed community, AI and UX design. Automation, content, usability. I think in my world I have to say payments. No bias. I think simplicity and usability. Matt, you can't reuse any of the previous words. That was the fate of your choice. They took all my words. All my words. Yeah, AI. Crap. Okay. Multilingual hyphenated word. That's one word. Interactivity, plug in marketplace. Wow. What a diversity in terms of responses. You know sometimes you you know I often ask these kind of questions to kind of just spur the discussion and it's it's really great to see this range. How does it feel you know listening to this and hearing you know the people here say what they're saying, how does it reflect on the original mission statement of democratizing publishing? What is you know how do you feel about democratizing publishing as it was meant then? And has it even changed? And if so, how? Any takers? Matt, you're nodding vigorously. It's a good question. I mean what I would say is that publishing or content has evolved a ton over the years and WordPress has to evolve with it. I mentioned the interactivity API. They just are talking about it recently. I think just that kind of focus on making content more interactive and more media rich is something we've been doing for a while. But I think there's just going to be a lot more of that going forward. So the more that we can make content meaningful, media rich, interactive, the better that going forward. Why does that tie back to democratizing publishing? In terms of being able to be the type of content, type of publishing that people want to have. Because that type of interactivity and media rich aspects used to be really, really challenging and difficult to do. So bringing down the roadblocks to be able to do that more easily I think is really important. Simia? Well from my point of view I can see that Gutenberg is very important for our projects. So also the collaboration phase we're awaiting will be a tool that many people can use and I think it's even bigger than the websites. That's also what Matt always talks about but it's something we can see in our projects that the open source part has touched the web but not really the publishing. Sometimes that's what I feel like. So automating publishing is not an open source thing yet. And I think by being open source you can broaden accessibility for everyone. Yeah, nice. Karen? Yeah, well accessibility and also usability will be very strong in accessing the content. I think publishing must be really something which we should focus on also in the future. But when you talk about content and also automation publishing we should not forget the people who really use it. And so it can and have to improve this wise. So access more accessible content will be a good thing. Do you think there's a difference between accessibility and then the discovery of content that you know like the entry points to a lot of content may be through a gated social platform let's say or a gated AI platform or whatever and that democratization of that is that part of the equation or is it really a lot of the onsite work or how do you you know become how do you live outside of these other platforms because you work with some clients that obviously in a publishing space and have to own their content but also they're very dependent on third-party platforms to undemocratize them. Yeah, sure. Yeah, well we see this trend that client wants to fully shift to social media and some clients want to just don't have their content on their website anymore. So they think of social media is something which is really accessible or visibility and so they can just put in the content there and not on the website which is a huge mistake. You should own your content and just use social media for visibility. But in terms of content managing if you really do the work good on the content then search engines doesn't matter if it's like from the web or from say the explore page of Instagram if you do the accessible stuff accessibility on your content good search engines or yeah something which will reach your content. I think I have a slightly different angle on this but I think there's a bit of a to me at least democratizing kind of publishing and all of that to me that's a lot about sort of putting the power in the community's hands a lot and and how that kind of allows for the shaping of the environment to happen in a way that kind of follows to some extent what the industry and community of people are doing and how they're like shaping that. For me on the content side I think what's interesting is when WordPress started content was very specifically words and I think that's now changing sort of like what is content like the definition of what content is evolving where it lives is evolving as well I think a lot and I think one of the key things for me as well is just the amount of discussion around who owns that content in what environments and I think you're right there's democratizing kind of the way in which we actually publish this content but then there's also the piece that I don't think we've properly solved is who owns it and where does that ownership actually sit. Yeah I think that's very interesting because from a customer point of view a lot of that has been figured out by the industry in terms of enterprises owning their own customers first party data so on and so forth but content is very spread out and not necessarily always owned and not necessarily owned inside of an open source platform so potentially you know there's there's opportunity for WordPress in these kind of environments to actually thrive but it's interesting because part of what you're saying it felt like you know does WordPress have to play catch up or do we lead in this territory and you know drive the future of content as opposed to try and chase it. Yeah and is the platform flexible enough to do that I think it makes it a bit messy as well sort of the nature of what comes with open source a lot of the time but it also means that you can actually move forward with it and I think to some extent WordPress has done well at being able to do that you know for 20 years it's quite a long time in terms of technology for things to be changing and it keeps up partially because of that flexibility which makes it a little bit messy but it also helps actually drive a lot of those things. Yeah I think as we're looking to the future certainly again from my perspective from a bit of a payments in commerce like I think there is a lot more of emerging of a commerce world and a content world and a publishing world and like a lot of these worlds are now starting to come together a lot more. Even like the way in which the trend you remind me of is the is the way social media is also getting more privatized or or premium having to pay for premium levels and there's the counter trend of the Fediverse that WordPress seems to be flirting with everybody familiar with the Fediverse like Mastodon things like this. The Fediverse is basically like a distributed way in which you can interact with content across multiple platforms and WordPress is is getting its hand into there slowly. Mastodon is probably the most familiar version of that type of platform that maybe might have heard of. When people were upset with Twitter they jumped over to this this Mastodon thing that you have to have a server and it's a way to be able to own your own content that's basically social media content and WordPress is starting to move into that a little bit as well with Activity Hub. It looks like they're they're dabbling with that idea. That's another form of democratizing publishing is making sure that we can also own our own social content that might be hosted on our own website. Switching gears just a little bit and taking this into consideration and maybe Sima I'll start with you. How do you see your your job in relation to WordPress you know being different in two or three years like what are you doing differently on a you know in a on a regular day? Well I mean we we do have coders in our agency and there you can see that like we go from PHP to JS we go from not only WordPress to Gutenberg that's a central part of our work to try and and optimize not only the the website itself but also the backend and I can see that our clients are not only the people using the website but also the people filling the website and that's part of what we try to focus on and I think that's what will be important as you said there will be many different use cases for WordPress so we have to as agencies do our best to make the backend also respond to that. We try to hide everything that you don't need and so so I think usability in the backend will be a big part of what we have to focus on. Also if you look at other CMSs that may not be open source but still are there they do this better I think and we have to keep up with that. Yeah makes sense. Karen how's your day-to-day changing in a couple years? Well I would say my day-to-day basically would not change that much. We know you're the boss. Because I'm the boss so I will still manage a managing task won't be different I would say but our agency will probably change it has been already changed so different skills different people more diversity but yeah we will see in the future maybe we will be faster because there is a search a certain AI thing which will help us be faster in coding performance has to be something which we should focus on and yeah maybe we will hire different people different skillset we don't know not in two years but maybe in five yeah yeah I feel like whenever there's predictions of like yeah maybe not in two years but maybe in five it's usually like in one year so we'll see Rosslyn how's your day-to-day day-to-day going to change like in two three years you you feel in the WordPress base what will you be doing differently if anything at all is this all hype is this are we just you know everything is normal everything is going to be the same I think in my again because I come from a world that like lives a little bit more in the commerce space the economic impact of the crazy COVID spike and the drop from that afterwards I would like I don't think we've seen the end of that trend and I think that's going to be more and more felt if we're talking sort of two three years I think there's there's a lot more focus on interestingly there's a lot more focus at IC on on data and understanding customers with the with the premise of trying to listen to customers more but a lot of the time that involves having more data about your customers which is an interesting paradigm to try to deal with particularly in an open source world I think there's a lot more focus on prioritization and being able to justify what you're doing and why you're doing it which is a lot of the time kind of driven by the economic factors and I would imagine that like broadly in the industry that's going to be felt to some extent as well because clients are struggling more if they're not growing as fast as they were or what they've predicted or whatever so I definitely from a day-to-day perspective that's that's that's my experience of it so far and I would imagine that that's going to continue at least for the need I think we're at the start of that in order to make sense yeah I mean I will say for sure that on the day-to-day chat GPT specifically has changed a lot of the ways that we think about how we generate content or ideas or research and I think that's going to continue I really see everything related to AI being like synonymous with like email like in terms of tool set it's going to be really fundamental to the way folks interact generally speaking I don't see it as a fad I'll watch this video in two years to see if I eat my words but six months yeah but I also I agree a lot with the the the focus on data in e-commerce and donations in marketing data is more and more important it's been a lot more accessible for smaller businesses to be able to collect data and Europe is doing a really good job of raising the privacy concerns of that and I don't think any tool Google analytics in particular both universal and GA4 have not really solved the problem of actionable website analytics that aren't violations of privacy that that problem is not solved and I hope it can start to be solved over the next couple years but data is definitely going to be a bigger and bigger concern and a bigger and bigger tool so how that evolves is going to be interesting for sure yeah and it's interesting you know just hearing you all speak about you know how you how you foresee your days years ago Matt said learn JavaScript that's the one thing what would you tell the group here to learn today to be best positioned in a couple years time well I'll leave it right back with you what's the one word learn x yeah um I told you guys it was going to be easy personally in the word press space I think I would say learn marketing that's what I would say literally I would say learn more JavaScript I've been going for so many years when does it end the way better this is flat but I'm gonna say learn to learn because um with AI and with chat GPT I as a not coder can go anywhere and ask can you do this for me in WordPress and it will do but building new stuff will still use like our our brains and our our craft so I would say learn to focus on what you can do there's this great book I'm reading at the moment it's called Deep Work and some of you may know it and and it really struck my mind to to realize that no matter how much AI will be having or how much automation there will be we still need our ideas we still need skills so we can't lay back and say that we don't need a coder AI will do that so learn JavaScript and learn learn to focus on what you can do yeah and I think that's a that's a very interesting point because we AI seems like this kind of scary thing that's come out of nowhere and you're excited and you're terrified you're excited you're terrified you're not quite sure which emotion to feel and ultimately like there's always been new technologies coming out and those new technologies enable us to learn new things and you know I think maybe because I felt similar to you where there's this very big jump in terms of something new coming around that I'm like okay I need to reprioritize how I kind of organize my day and do things to try and pick this up and then also do the other thing I'm doing because it's that important um but yeah it's a you've worded it in a different very nice way and I and I like to learn to learn Rosalind yeah also like that um also not not a direct tool but I probably learn whatever your children are doing yeah I guess there's if it's a tool probably like learn it's an old school tool but probably learn SQL like if data is going to be the thing understand how to know a bit more about data but yeah I feel like most most trends that we are going to experience in the next few years are probably whatever our children are doing yeah that's probably fair enough and I like that talk is that what you mean learn learn SQL on TikTok I don't have children so I don't know but yeah it's it's uh it's very interesting because obviously you know Karen brought up usability various uh fashions and AI uh tries to bring usability in a form of natural language so you don't even need need to code anymore you just speak in a natural format to the solution and say hey this is this is what you know I want and it brings this whole no code kind of wave and I feel like WordPress was at the very beginning of a lot of this no code end-to-end right like you could go on a hosting company say I want a site you know and then install plugins it's not always the you know the greatest path but you're learning and you're still not writing any code and you're launching a website there's you have a theme and you've gone from one end of the spectrum to completely other end of the spectrum without using a third party or proprietary tool and that's a a wonderful thing how does WordPress stay relevant in that space in the coming years and I think that you know this comes back a bit to what you say you know like are we gonna are we chasing this thing are we leading like how do we what's what do we have to do it's a very easy question I know yeah it's very any takers very general question for me what at least the the sort of like high-level trend that I feel like is is happening is a lot more niche focus like figuring out your specific thing that you're better at and to me that's there's there's like in the early days it was just a case of you know if you could if you could put a website together you were leaps and bounds ahead of most people if you could just like do it in a vaguely usable way in a way that people could see that now we're we have a lot more knowledge of what good looks like in the context of publishing and websites and commerce and any of these things so it's become a lot more that the default state is already a lot better and there's already quite a lot of like standards that exist within that so it becomes a little bit of how are you answering a specific niche and like I so I think for me at least like WordPress stays relevant by agencies becoming better at becoming more niche and being able to target WordPress to work specifically for those niche areas but I think there's a lot to me that there's like it's a it's a layer on top almost of what WordPress is if I can dig in one of the challenges that I feel that WordPress has and I'm sure it's been felt by a lot of people in this room is that WordPress is everything to everybody and you know fails at product marketing for these niches and then that work is left to the agencies to then pick up and to try and then sell and and then unsell the blogging thing and say look no this this can actually do all the things you want you know it can do a headless it can do all that then you know we've we've missed opportunities in the past you know is that's is that something that you know WordPress has to address directly or is that still on the shoulders of agencies to take on yeah I mean that's a good question I think there's there's probably a bit of a perception lag that is a very nice way of putting that which which I mean is a bit of a human trend right like you you you you tend to have that recency issue of like you think something is still 10 years ago when an actual fact it's moved on from that so it can do a lot more but are we good at actually promoting that fact um probably not yeah yeah fair enough matt remember the original question the essentially the question you know restate it go ahead I thought you were like a chat gpt or you stored a conversation and you're like I do but it gets messed up in translation so uh fair enough uh what can WordPress do to stay relevant yeah yeah so I you and I were chatting earlier it's like the next couple years of WordPress in terms of WordPress core we know exactly what's going on there and it's it's going to be emphasis on multi-collaboration and multilingual which I think are great and fine but it's not necessarily the thing that's going to continue to keep WordPress relevant I think it opens up a lot of doors for multilingual I think the focus on there is going to be great in terms of like even in the states which is very traditionally very uni lingual they definitely should be that's a is it a word I don't know monolingual monolingual they they should be doing a lot more English Spanish sites for example as an example and that could help elevate that but I think in terms of like pushing WordPress into the future I have a lot of faith and belief in the plug-in space that's where innovation is is going to be it's a gift and a challenge the plug-in space is also a big problem for WordPress in terms of perception when you get into a WordPress website and you see a giant wall of advertisements that's not fun but but in terms of how WordPress is going to evolve we have this great pattern of WordPress as feature plugins for example which are not part of core but are being considered in one way or another I like the way that that sets up innovation to be kind of in this test ground area for a little bit so I am hoping that when it comes to AI in particular or other types of cutting-edge things it's going to keep WordPress relevant that it's going to be the plug-in space that leads in that department and says here's a great idea and this is a way that we can be doing this and that maybe ideally hopefully folks in core development can be paying attention and start treating that as good territory for feature plugins yeah it's almost the undefeatable moat or wall that WordPress has around it in terms of its momentum to be able to react to any let's say new technology so I have no idea how many AI related plugins are waiting for review on the .org site but I feel very sorry for the people reviewing as there must be an absolute ton in there right now I think it's something like 300 so yeah it's quite a bit Karen yeah well that's a good question I actually don't know what WordPress can do to stay relevant but I know what we all can do to stay to let WordPress stay relevant so everyone even if you are freelancer or an agency it's relevant how we use WordPress and how we market WordPress to our clients and how we tell them that WordPress can be awesome and can be customized so the picture of our WordPress is just a blogging concept should be more we should speech out to our clients that we can customize WordPress and WordPress can be very flexible and that people know and everything will follow we are a community so it's in our hands what we do with the open source platform so yes everyone should contribute somehow yeah good answer see me yeah I mean I can only agree I think that is some good stuff here it's yeah I think we should like know what's coming in the core as you said the things that that are waiting in the Gutenberg phase and three and four will be important and will be nice but it's not what will keep WordPress relevant I think we should have high demands for our skills as agencies as plugin providers so I'm not gonna add a new point because I just agree with all of you but just have high demands for ourselves I think that's that's very important because we we maybe sometimes tend to wait for the core and that's not gonna be what what will make WordPress relevant in the end I think it's what keeps WordPress stable and alive but not what keeps WordPress ahead that's a great way of differentiating yeah future present past yeah I can add one more actually which is probably your one from earlier which is at least something that I would like to see is more customization on the actual admin side of things I feel like a lot is focused on the front end side but to some extent like if you install WordPress posts are still at the top of the menu you know it's sort of no wonder people still see it is like a blogging yeah but I think that that's you know like having customization that can speak to a niche audience not just from the front end and what's happening on a user side but also in terms of how it's actually being managed on the back end and on the admin side so yeah I'm sort of looking forward to a world where Gutenberg exists in the back end as well and is not just a just a totally chaos I love it sounds like chaos but at the same time I'm like I want to be able to hide things I want to you know you part of that the problem I spoke to you about the plugins and the wall of advertisements is also because of the limitations of how non customizable the admin is the plugins only have a couple good decent options right now and not that we not that plugins need more options because if you give us more we'll take more but if there was a more systemized way to surface things and not be so obtrusive then that would definitely benefit the user a lot more as a side note I think with my first like serious paid client in like 2009 or so I hid everything and then renamed posts to news and so when they logged in they only saw one thing in the menu that's it they only saw news and they're like oh this is such an easy system to use and I'm like yep okay I'm glad you like it this is WordPress it's simple to use you do have to put into work to as you say customize the front but then customize the back it's WordPress walks this line sometimes of being this out of the box solution but then also something you want to tailor for clients and when you're tailoring something for your clients that's an experience you have to create as opposed to the default one that WordPress gives you and it's yeah it's challenging but I you know I agree like it's it's come to this size now where you it's just too big it has to have a bit more optionality there let's switch gears a bit and flip the flip this upside down maybe and maybe ask the question you know looking in the future maybe what's your most controversial take and by controversial I mean what is the one thing you would predict for the future of WordPress you know 2025 or even beyond that you feel most people in this room would disagree with you on that is the definition any first takers how many people do you want to sit next to you for dinner after I have a statement I quite like I'm not sure people would disagree with it but controversial no so just in like general kind of tech space e-commerce space whatever my sort of take on this is that every tech company wants to be a payment company always trying to be a payment company and every payment company is trying to be a bank ultimately that's like the direction everyone everyone wants to own them the transaction and everyone wants to be able to then offer additional things on top of that it's like yeah I don't know if it's going to be necessarily but I'm still looking for a bit more controversy who wants to win an award or be very popular tonight so I have one okay here we go in two years WordPress will not be open to us anymore how about that really a prediction or a worry or a fear or all the above all okay a prediction I'm not even gonna dig into that because I think that's a great one for for people to come up to you and just unpack okay we are we are running a bit of short on time so we're gonna power through I would say I don't know if this is a prediction I guess it is essentially if WordPress.org doesn't help plugins and themes start to have better data than somebody else is going to solve that problem and you may or may not like it but it is a problem that plugin authors and theme authors have and need and if they're all trying to solve it individually it gets worse for the user so somebody needs to solve that problem because .org so far isn't will you sit by me at dinner no I'm somewhere else now maybe we all just sit together at this point yeah maybe a subject we touched is AI and obviously what people are thinking is that customization coding will be easier and our work will be almost relaxing but I think it will be the opposite like once everyone can use chat gpt we will have to even be better so I think things will not be easier they will be harder in a good way I like that take let's open up for q and a since we're my I knew you're going to prediction or what or which piece your controversial thing that makes nobody sit by you I'm not sure I haven't thought about it no I'm the I'm the I don't want to get in trouble I get enough trouble I already got in trouble this year q and a at the very back so just walking around the conference we've heard maybe seven languages and several dialects so the problem is not only language Matt but it's the dialects now you mentioned the United States and Southern California just in Los Angeles County there are 177 formal languages spoken plus dialects how many people in the room know that my in is still an active language the first time I heard somebody speak my in it was my next door neighbor so the problem of languages has to be solved in the written form first and then we go from there into dialects so your comments about language and it's it's specifically in the states it just slams us here in Europe you have borders that pretty much define languages right and then it's pan-European in the United States we've fought with languages for years and years and years and if my if wordpress can help us solve that it will just be tremendous great comment though thank you questions I will say about that I will I will add to that that I think the real solution is not wordpress I do think it's AI actually AI is going to be the thing that helps us do multilingual in a way that's that's seamless in a way say open source AI open source AI that will help us it'll be built into browsers it'll be something that just happens but being localization of your website helps you control that translation better so there's like the default way that your website could be translated and then there's the like curated way that I will I want my site to be gorgeous in my in not just translatable so I have a short comment and a question which probably goes beyond 2025 the comment is I'm amazed I didn't hear this keyword security in the first round especially from the payment side or the plug inside and now my question with the Gutenberg editor based on blocks blocks are loosely speaking relational you think there is hope that there will be a cleaner database design in the future or do people just not care what the database looks in the back end well that's a very interesting question I mean I might take a small stab at that because I love structured content or the lack thereof and we talk a lot about that inside our own company and especially with the rise of AI structured content in some ways becomes less relevant because AI is smart enough to parse through the content without having to have structure so it's it's actually you know to what level the structured content actually need to to manifest itself and there are ways to connect blocks to each other to have one to one relationships or one to many relationships there are certainly plugins out there to handle these things but you're right in the sense that the way that the model the content model as it's presented with blog posts and and how it's perceived this is certainly a challenge but I personally feel it's more of a product marketing one than a structural one where people are hitting hard limits and hard bounds you're welcome okay we have time for one more question again make it count oh yeah there's a question over there just let's wait for the mic wow thank you somebody said this already on the panel but I think the the back office the back end the addition is a key for example we have a client we did the WooCommerce website for them and then the one to move out because of the complexity of having his staff managing the articles in the back office and I think that's like going to Presta shop or something else which is designed for this specific purpose and I think WordPress is great for flexibility but in terms of the design of the back office it's still weak I think and having in the core maybe also a roadmap for being able to full site edit the back office let's say would be very interesting because it's it's a feature we can do as developers but many people cannot access easily to this to this feature and I think like you said like hiding everything which is not relevant and simplifying the interface is becoming a standard for many online products and I think it's a very important aspect any takers yeah I guess I agree yeah I mean I think there's at least my my impression of it is that it a lot of a lot of it can be done there are things that can be done but it's it's probably at the moment just too time-consuming and too expensive so you end up not doing it and you end up coming with a whole bunch of rules you know oh when you know if it's called a post you're actually doing this in the union like just ignore the fact that it's called posts it's actually doing something else or it's you know so I think I think the the ability to customize more to what that niche requirement is is is kind of it's becoming more expected and I think this is both from a customer perspective but also from the client perspective of people are no longer willing to have a hundred rules or a hundred like pages of documentation that they need to be able to understand in order to do things like they want that convenience and they want the ability for different systems to talk to each other I think we're talking about language but there's there's a there's a system language problem as well of you know the different blocks the different areas the different plugins like things don't talk to each other very well because it's so much I guess so that was probably my reason for my word simplicity of like figuring out how we actually get these things to talk a bit better and allow clients and customers to be able to actually interact with those things in a more simple way feels like a really important step that we really haven't figured out yet and I think one of those key points that you brought up is that look it is possible but it's just really time-consuming and expensive to do and that's that is a an important factor now it wasn't 20 years ago or 10 years ago or whatever so yeah this concludes our session I really want to thank Roslyn, Carin and Matt for participating I hope you enjoyed it thank you wow thank you