 So, welcome all and welcome to the Hyperledger Media and Entertainment Special Interest Group. As noted, this event is being recorded and will be available on the Hyperledger YouTube channel. I am Brett Russell, co-chair of the Hyperledger Media and Entertainment Special Interest Group. And with us today is our fabulous and very helpful chair assistant, Ms. Randy Givens. Good morning. Hello, everyone. I'm sorry. I'm having technical difficulties with my camera so you can't see me. But hopefully you can hear me. Okay. We can hear you fine. Okay. And once again, I'd like to say welcome to our Hyperledger Media and Entertainment Special Interest Groups. I will be posting the links for our pages as well as our LinkedIn page that you can follow along. And hopefully you can keep in touch with our community. And once again, we really appreciate you taking your time to come on today. Thank you. And thank you, Brett. Thank you, Randy. Randy's going to be posting the antitrust statement and a code of conduct in the chat, which is the Hyperledger standard for all our meetings. So thank you very much, Randy, and thank you all for attending. Let's move along here. Welcome all to the inaugural meeting of the Hyperledger Blockchain AI Roundtable. I am Brett Russell again, organizer and member of the Hyperledger Blockchain AI Roundtable. And I am pleased to introduce the six other founding members of this Roundtable. I'll first introduce you to Karen Hillroy. Great to see you, Karen. Karen is a full-stack AI developer and author of several interesting and timely books, most notably Blockchain Tethered AI and IP and the law. Along with being well-entrenched in all things AI, Karen is also CEO of Hillroy Blockchain and led a team that won the 2017 IBM Watson bill. Karen is also our Roundtable moderator. I introduce you to Todd Holmes. Welcome, Todd. And it's great to see you again. Todd is associate professor of entertainment media management at California State University, Northridge. Todd's faith thing is teaching courses in media management and media entrepreneurship among many other things. Up next is Ethan Kors. Is Ethan here? I didn't... There he is. Sorry, Ethan. I didn't see you pop in there. Good morning, Ethan. I welcome you and good to see you again. Ethan is a senior data scientist with Walmart and brings his expertise in AI to our Roundtable. Up next, Jay Devert. I welcome Jay. Great to see you again. Jay is manager at Deloitte Consulting, Blockchain and Digital Assets. Along with being totally distracted by the potential of Blockchain and Digital Assets, Jay is a successful film producer with feature films distributed by Netflix, ABC and Disney. I introduce you to Orson Weems. Welcome, Orson. We're excited to have you here. Thank you. I'm excited as well. Thank you. Orson is executive director of the Music Education Initiative and the nephew of the legendary Al Bell, founder of Stax Records and former president of Motown. An impressive head of grief. Welcome, Andy Rosen. Excellent to have you. Andy is a technical innovator and a troubleshooter and founder of Sequence Key. Andy is knowledgeable in imaging signal systems design and is recognized for work and content protection standards. That should pretty much cover our membership, seven of us altogether. There's a wealth of knowledge and experience here today and over the next while, we are going to discuss the challenges AI presents the entertainment industry. And as we do, we'll venture down the rabbit hole and explore solutions in the form of private permissioned Blockchain and distributed ledger technologies. Karen will start the conversation with a series of questions relating to how AI is really impacting the entertainment industry. You guys are probably, if you're not in front of a computer or TV, you're, you're certainly hearing and feeling all about how the industry is being affected with the recent news and particular are, are, are swift defense and nothing to do with the football team, but the fake videos going around, etc, etc. Before I hand this off to Karen, the conversation should zigzag between the fake songs, the fake videos, the fake images, the fake news, and all of them posing as real. And here's what I know. AI cannot be trusted. And Blockchain can be trusted. And if in the end we can get AI to zig and Blockchain to zag, we may find a path to trust in AI. I'll now hand this off to Karen, our moderator. You have the floor Karen and thank you all again for coming. Thank you, Brett. And welcome to everyone, our panel and our guests to the inaugural meeting of the Hyperledger Blockchain AI Roundtable. As Brett said, I'm Karen Kilroy, and I'm moderator of this group and I'm also a member of the Hyperledger Blockchain AI Roundtable. I'm also an AI, a full stack AI developer and author of several books that are published on O'Reilly Media, the two most notable being Blockchain, Tethered AI, and then AI and the law. And then in addition to that, I'm also an entrepreneur, and I'm CEO of Kilroy Blockchain. I'm really, really happy to introduce the esteemed founding members of this roundtable. And I'd like to start by speaking with Todd Holmes. Todd, hello. Hi Karen, how are you? Hi, I'm doing great. How are you? It's great to see you. Thank you, doing very well. Todd is Associate Professor of Entertainment Media Management at California State University, Northridge. So Todd, I have a question for you. AI has been a disruptor in just about every industry imaginable. And as you know very well, the entertainment industry is experiencing its fair share of disruption. Taylor Swift, George Carlin, Drake, The Weeknd, just to name a few, have been front page news lately with AI creations. Todd, what do you feel is the biggest challenge in the entertainment industry with the advancement of generative AI? Okay, that's a great question Karen. Well, there's certainly a lot of concerns about, I mean, there's certainly a lot of, it provides a lot of opportunities certainly for entertainment firms, but at the same time, you know, a lot of ethical dilemmas and things like that. So, in terms of challenges, I think, you know, and obviously we looked at, you know, the length of the strikes and everything last year and how problematic that was. And of course, one of the biggest parts of that was AI and exactly how do you, how do you utilize it and, you know, a positive, a positive way but not negatively impact workers within the industry. So, I think, yeah, there's a lot of things you've got to consider. I think that from an ethical standpoint, you know, if you're a writer just making sure that you're getting that basically you're, there's transparency about how you're using AI and how you're not and making sure that that people aren't that you can use AI for certain ideas and things like that but that not allowing it to completely take over your writing of content, obviously AI can do lots of things in terms of other content creation that other, that were not available previously. So, I think, you know, just trying to figure that out. I think certainly there's an opportunity for certain things such as certainly blockchain technology. One of the big issues was residuals with the strikes. And I think considering the use of blockchain for the, the unpaid residuals that are out there either that's not claimed by, by the errors of performers. Also, just, just essentially the research shows that about 15% of residuals go unpaid. And certainly blockchain has a real positive impact there on being able to, for the payment of that. But obviously, yeah, AI is, like I said, it could be a wonderful tool, but at the same time, you just want to make sure that yeah people again their likeness is not being used without their consent making sure that that's that's appropriate and in the writing process making sure that writers are not being completely replaced in that if you're given a script or given content that's been created by making sure that there's transparency and that you're letting people know, hey, this was AI generated. And, and then, you know, just so you know what the situation is. Thank you. Thank you, Todd. And I want to dig a little deeper into that when we come back for our second round of questions. And for right now I'd like to go to Ethan keel, who is our next blockchain round table member. Ethan welcome is great to see you again. Ethan is a senior data scientist with Walmart. And he brings his expertise in AI to our round table. Ethan also works with me on a nonprofit called friends of just Justin, which was formed to help address the disjoint between humans and AI. Ethan, can you tell us a little bit about how AI systems are trained and how this impacts entertainers. Yeah, absolutely. AI systems and how they're developed are rapidly developing right now and there's new iterations every day. The thing to really know about train AI is that the algorithm is important. It will dictate how the AI machinery model learns, but at the end of the day, it only learns the data that it's trained on. And so it is crucially important to have high quality data in these systems. In my experience what we generally have is three separate teams that are working on building an AI system we have a data engineering team that is responsible for procuring high quality data for pipelining it and cleaning it for use in the model. And then we have the data science team that is actually working on implementing an algorithm, you know, finding tuning hyper parameters to get the exact learning and just the exact statistical algorithm that we want. And then there's also a machine learning engineering team that is responsible for building a product out of that model, whether that means helping ensure that model trains faster or generates inference faster. And when we say inference, that is the results that is generated by the model, either prompting it or API calls, anything along those lines. And so generally speaking, we have had those teams exist at a large scale like Walmart in the past where, you know, a team like a startup level. They may not have necessarily all these different divisions. But I would say the same process is like says there's just, you know, a more a less defined role for each each member. And, like I said, this is evolving every day right now, especially with LLMs. It's a totally new spending paradigm. There's a there's a new process that that is going on that we call fine tuning these LLMs. And that involves using open source algorithms, and then tuning them slightly to a specific use case. And that is presenting new challenges in and of itself because of the size of these open source models. It's something that is introducing a totally new paradigm in this process. But as I said, I would break it down to, you know, cleaning your data, send it into the model one team, one team focused on the algorithm itself making sure that you're generating the machine learning model that you want to generate you're getting the best learning possible from your data. And then the team that's responsible for productionizing that model and making it usable for folks. Thank you wow that's a that's a really great explanation of how these AI models are trained. And I'd like to come back and dig into that a little deeper on our next round. And the next question is for Jay. Welcome, Jay Devret. Hello, Jay, maybe you can clear some of this up. You know, our first, our first presenter talked about our first guest talked about how there's a lot of challenges in the entertainment industry and now Ethan Samuel here is. Here's the science behind it some kind of thinking maybe you can see the middle ground. Jay has a great perspective as a manager at Deloitte consulting blockchain digital assets, and in addition to that he's a successful film producer. So Jay, my question for you. Tell us what you feel is the biggest challenge in the entertainment industry with the advancement of generative AI. I mean, you know, there's so many different perspectives you can look at it from from the perspective of talent. It's just, we've reached the point in the industry where it is so hard to break through and it's actually making a living and staying and actually getting to put your self into being an artist and generative AI. Up to this point, we've seen so many disruptions. I mean, as I'm sure Orson can talk about we've seen, we saw distributed ironing software to take, you know, really take the music industry for a run ages ago. We've seen problems nowadays with the streaming revolution in just companies like Netflix and Amazon being able to just fully buy out of just kind of corner and monopolize the market and buy out pieces of entertainment and just cut residuals out of the deal. And we're seeing really what happens the long term effects of that when you're, I mean, we're starting to see the long term effects of that when you go eight months without having any working union writers or actors. And I think the biggest challenge right now is probably how do you how do you credit artists and pay them properly and incentivize them in a world where there is so many different ways to create content and to begin to sort of find home and home and yet so few ways to actually get in the door of the big distributors and so much has to be given up for them to actually get through the door. And what I mean by that is just there's no no one is no one is showing up at a Hollywood studio with a script that is really good. You have to be repped by an agency that has a pipeline into the studios. You have to be, you have to basically have in order to even get repped you have to have made a feature or a short already. There's a sizable financial investment that has to have been has to have been put into your career. It is so hard to actually get to that point and I think the problem that we're seeing is that there's just too few opportunities for artists to make a living and to continue to make a living. In this area. And yet, there is such a high demand for entertainment. I mean it is. It's just, if you look at the common sense that I'd say the default activity for at least most people I know when you don't have anything to do is to turn on Netflix and how is it that we have that how is it that we should ever have a shortage of content and how is it that we should ever have a shortage of talent in this industry, and yet we're seeing both. Wow. Yeah, that's that's a serious dilemma. And hopefully this roundtable will come to some answers on some of those things as we as we progress through our discussions. Thank you, Jay. Our next guest is Orson, Orson Weems. He's our next day I blockchain roundtable member and welcome Orson. We're really excited to have you. Thank you, Karen. Thank you all for having me as well. I'm excited to be here. Hello to all our guests as well. Now I met Orson, because he was implementing some on the ground training to get people to work in the entertainment industry. And he is the executive director of the music education initiative. And he's also the nephew of the legendary Al Bell, who was the founder stacks records and former president of Motown. Now, Orson, you are closely involved with many musical artists, your uncle, among them. Can you tell me what is the biggest threat to the livelihood of today's musicians? And how is this situation being impacted by AI? Well, thank you again. The thing that one of the things that Jay just said was the streaming part of that. But on top of that, now we have the where it's not just sampling in a boy, it's just literally just taking the music of the artist, creating what other people think is new music, but and the new person that presents this music is getting the money for and the other artists that created the original music, then even know it's been taken and used. And that's a threat to not just their livelihood, their generations to come, but of created real music that we didn't have all of these different mechanical and digital items that would help affect the music industry. And I got to tell you the threat of that is the loss of not just this great creativity of music, but the dependency that people are using instead of creating. We're losing almost dumbing down a music industry of the different genres of music and entertainment. But I feel that one of the largest things is the money that the artists are losing and taking. It's being taken from and I tell you, I've seen so much. My, my uncle has the won't there it is in his catalog, and that was sampled and redone on so many different levels and so many different people have used that. I've heard just different music from some of the artists that were under the stacks label and now the legacy album through of stacks through Concord records that now stacks as part of, and I've seen people just take different samples from Odish ready to Carla Thomas to the the bar case, the theme from shaft and so I think the biggest threat right now is the misuse of AI on original content that would affect artists and musicians alike and musicians as well because of this thing that I've come to know about is the stem separation. And we're talking nine image likenesses as well as it's big in the athletic world, but my image and likeness is also big in the entertainment world, which would be the music entertainment world is all. Thank you, Orson. Well, thank you. The next question is for Andy Rosen are our esteemed blockchain AI roundtable members. I'm so happy you're here Andy thank you for joining us. I'm honored for the invitation. Nice to see you. Andy is a technical innovator and a troubleshooter and his founder of sequence key. Andy is knowledgeable and imaging systems in imaging signal systems design and is recognized for work and content protection standards. Andy, what do you feel is the greatest challenge in the entertainment industry with the advancement of generative AI. The greatest challenge was shared to me by the head cryptographer at Microsoft. And that is that Josh Benelaw teaches his students that as long as someone can get in front of a camera and lie, we have a serious problem. And the, again, I'm jumping ahead. I want you to know what the challenge is. We are what how is this impacting the industry from what you're seeing what's what's the what's what's going to have to be overcome. What is being overcome is that in the area of ad supported entertainment, which is the growth arena and will continue to be the growth arena for mass entertainment for a few years at least. And then safety brand integrity is being trashed and Madison and frankly the seeds of Madison Avenue's reaction were planted quite a long time ago as network revenues were being seriously eroded by, you know, Facebook Meta now tick tock and these things, irresponsible platforms. So it's not a question of if or when your colleagues in another organization Karen are deploying content integrity tools across all of the agencies of publicists and you can. Pretty easily predict when the other two advertising conglomerates will buddy up to them side by side. We already leaked it. So, give a challenge is how we survive this next year, we now have nobody's declared war exactly, but we now have the responsible platforms and they not so responsible platforms. And at the last simpy conference, I was handing out little con little content credentials adhesive stickers and sticking them on as many studio badges as I could get it's time for all of us run do not walk. It is time for all of us to go to Madison Avenue and tell them. Thank you. I understand appreciate and support what you're doing. Yes, there isn't an infrastructure to do all the details but don't worry about that that's our job. We need. To do this. We, it's time for personal show up and and, you know, encourage a lot of handshaking Madison Avenue agencies and networks and auditing firms have on my watch in the past on similar matters, set aside their differences and agreed on a hard one set of compromises for a goal of mutual benefit in the area of watermarking and identification so yeah yeah yeah what all what is all this new again. Tony the tiger and a box of tide will save us all we just have to tell them we understand this. I'll drink to that. Thank you, Andy. So, and last but not least, and my rounds is our esteemed hopes, Brett Russell Brett. This is our. He is the founder of acuritas, which develops enterprise blockchain for the entertainment industry. He's also the co chair of the hyper ledger media and entertainment special interest group, which is this group, and the organizer of this round table Brett hello are you there. Good morning again Karen I am here and I'm ready for you. So you've been around block chain since 2014. That's a while, and this founder of acuritas, which is developing blockchain to augment film, television and music production and just distribution. Can you tell us what's the biggest challenge that you're seeing in the entertainment industry with the advancement of generative AI. I think the AI has done a generative AI has done a great job of assisting the production and many cases of of a film and television in the, in the production of imaging and things of that nature but it's, it's threatening to take a lot from the industry and even though there are some legal language being used in some of the contracts today. There's a lot of jobs that are going to be lost there's a lot of people that are going to be threatened by this there's a lot of. There's a lot of legal costs associated with having to protect the likeness the, the, the image of you as an actor or you as a producer, and your product and something that you work very hard at producing. So I think that we're in the early days as, as Ethan so efficiently notes we don't know where we're going to be tomorrow at this time we don't know what's new but there's a lot of money being invested huge amounts of money being invested in the, in the development of tools that the entertainment needs to use to use AI and that I think has needs guardrails and it needs to have some basic standards that can be applied and we need to know clearly and quickly when I when AI is being used. We need to be able to defend a product that that we create that we put out there that we spend money on and we need to make sure that that if it's being used we know immediately, and that we're there's some type of fair compensation rules built around around AI so the threat is a monetary one big time, there's people that aren't going to be able to afford to defend any anything I mean there are laws on the books right now that that that manage copyright but people can't pursue copyright infringement it's too expensive lawyers are the winners and and seldom do you know seldom is there a lot of quick success and things like that and people just end up failing at defending their what what what's rightfully theirs. So I see it being what the problems are today are going to be very different tomorrow. So that's that that's the as Ethan said this is this thing is moving fast and furious so we don't know what's going to happen. Tomorrow we don't know whether any of the language put any of these contracts and I know that's one of your questions you may have for Todd, and that's whether that's going to protect anybody. Today from yesterday, whatever. So I see there's some huge monetary challenges for the small guy, and you know, the, the, the creatives are, which is the source of all of our fun and laughter are going to be the losers. So that's, that's my, that's my take on things. Thank you. Thank you Brett and Karen I'm going to take over here. Because I have a question for you. Okay. My question Karen is how difficult. In your view will it be to create the standards and guard rails needed. And what kind of hoops do you think we're going to have to jump through in order to create these standards. Those are great questions. I would say it's not a case of us starting from the beginning and creating the standards, because there's been quite a few groups at work on various pieces of the puzzle for many years. And so it's kind of a convergence of all the different solutions to be able to solve some of the things that we need in order to be able to, for instance, create responsible systems that will make sure that everyone is paid. The, the one example would be my own work on my book blockchain tethered AI. This wasn't something I did overnight. This was a process of, of about seven years of research. And it wasn't just me. It was me asking questions to engineers who then in turn went and did research projects who then came back and published the results and then we kind of bounced off of each other. It was a long process. But meanwhile, we're not the only people doing it right. We also, I also ran into the C to PA and the content authenticity initiative and that's how I met Andy Rosen. And that's another group that has been working for a very long time on this. They've been working from the standard of, of making sure that content can't be faked and being able to, to inspect content to find out its origin. And there's many, many companies adopting this and you can also declare things as do not use this for AI training. And, and one of the companies that just joined in is open AI. So it's a very interesting group. Microsoft is as a part of that and Adobe, those are the leaders. It's, it's that is going on. Meanwhile, as I've come to learn from Andy, there are many, many, many, many other arms already still spinning and at work. And one of the, one of those would be the sympathy group. And they have been working for a long time on standards for, for, for managing the same sort of thing. It's not like any one of these groups has not noticed AI is coming. So I think one of the things that we need to do in order to really to get it all into one nice smoothly working machine is to connect all these different groups and find out what they've been working on and then give them one single source of truth that they can all subscribe to. Excellent. Great answer. I put a link up to the sympathy org on, and I think that also Andy had mentioned that in his, in his response. So there's a link on the chat to sympathy and that's a great response Karen. Thank you so much. You have the floor, you have the floor. Well, thank you very much. But that was a lot we've we've gotten a lot of where we've really got a broad level of expertise here is really exciting and Todd I'd like to come back with you again and ask you another question. Great. Okay, the writer's guild and SAG after made an important component to their last contract. Does it go far enough. Can you can you tell us about it and can you tell us if it went far enough to protect the members from from AI. Right. No, it's a great question it's it's one of those things that I would say my short answer would be I don't think it quite goes far enough but the thing is, I mean again things are evolving so quickly. I think it can be it can be a challenge. I certainly think it's going to be up for debate again when that contract expires. But I think it was important though and again that's part of what led to such such long prolonged strikes last year was just making sure they got this right at this particular point in time with how rapidly evolving AI technology is in terms of. Yeah, in terms of your of your actors for things for instance with the SAG after I mean certainly making sure that that people are that their likeness that they're going to be compensated if their likeness is going to be used if they're if their likeness is going to be compensated and all that and I know that's been a concern for a lot of people I've even had students that have you know been background players and they and they go somewhere and to a production and they say hey can we go and scan your your likeness that's one of the first things we do and certainly making sure that okay if you're going to scan my likeness making sure that I'm going to be compensated. I'm going to understand that this is going to be used for this one particular production that you're going to to audition for but then also the protections though are making sure that okay if your likeness is then going to be used in a second third and fourth. Fifth film or or any type of production your likeness, you'll make sure that you're going to be informed at least that's the way it's supposed to supposed to work so certainly that's that's an improvement making sure people are again appropriately compensated there. For the writers, there are protections in terms of making sure that, again, if if a studio hands over a script it's been or contents been a generated, making sure that the writers understand that again that this AI has played a role here and making sure that again people can take an initial idea that a writer has come up with the writer the writer room has developed and then utilize AI with that and without again without them being being notified. And certainly there are there are protections and they're about you probably heard about you know the writer's room and making sure that that you know that people are being appropriately compensated for that and making sure that they are because obviously when a streaming in terms of writers one of the biggest concerns that they had a certain like the shorter seasons you know for one, and then also just lower residuals and a streaming world that we'd have in traditional broadcasting cable those those, you know, the, the compensation the residuals again to being a lower much lower amount so obviously you know the improvements with writer and writer's rooms I think was important making sure that again people are going to be employed for at least a set period of time, making sure that again if they have a little bit more stability and long term long term work there. But yeah so in terms of AI, like I said I think that I think the actors and writers ideally would have liked to probably had a few more guardrails put into place. But I think overall they're pretty happy with where they are but I do think certainly it's going to be a major sticking point at the next time is negotiations come up. Next year, as well as is a yachtsie they're doing their negotiations. And this is of course a lot of people that work work on set your camera operators, people like that so AI is going to be a really important part of those negotiation negotiations as well moving forward. Wow, it's a stage hands the yachtsie. Right. Yeah. Wow. Thank you so much that's a lot of new information. I really appreciate it. Amazing. So let's go ahead and go to Ethan. Now Ethan, can you tell us some precautions that production companies could take to prevent AI from using their proprietary work to train and model AI. Yeah, I think the previously mentioned C2PA is where my mind goes first and the ability to assert how your work should be used I think is incredibly powerful, especially as we dig into, I think it's 1202B in the copyright infringement where if you mess with content or a CMI copyright management icon that you can you can be sued for that. And I think that's going to be something that really becomes noticeable as we see more digital watermarking technology C2PA manifest things like that. They're being used at the production level. Because they actually are providing a way for us to track the origin of original material, how it is used, how it was, how the producer claimed it should be used. So that's fair rights, whatever, whatever. And then being able to track that very origin of that material. Now where the hard part comes in is, you know, if AI being able to say this is similar enough to original content to know that this was used as training material. It's something that I think will, you know, continually be continued to be figured out but the prevalence of digital watermarking technologies as well as C2PA manifests, I really feel like are going to proliferate and and really, I mean they're already used for copyright infringement. I think they're going to become more aware for people at the, you know, social media content creator level are going to become more aware of these technologies and more aware of their power, and where they belong in that what I call the AI economy, you know, where they're the data originators for that that whole system, and they are going to be compensated for for that role. But I, I really think that C2PA is is the most powerful technology that we have right now to fight against that and being able to correctly display the manifest and fair rights for each item, or piece of content that is generated. That is going to be incredibly important. And, and how that information is specifically stored and shared on the internet is going to become incredibly important. Yes, yes, I definitely agree with that and also to I'll mention if anyone's got any questions in the, please go ahead and put them in the chat where I'll take a look at those questions and and get to them. So I'll take a look through those. And thank you for that, Ethan. And in the meantime, I'd like to ask Jay a question. Jay, with your knowledge and background in blockchain and digital assets. Can you and how do you envision blockchain might play an important role in AI infused entertainment industry. And to me, blockchain really its primary function in this realm when we're talking about IP and the just the maintenance of IP rights. I think provenance is sort of the absolute biggest topic is just validating where something is what the origin of IP is as it's sampled, interpolated built upon added to etc. And it really ties directly into that. It's, you know, to me, when I think about AI, the biggest actually risk area that I see, obviously, you know, I think there are a lot of things that are correctly identified as risks, but maybe you're being overstated as risks in in sort of context with the other people that are occurring. You know, it's obviously a very dystopian world where a child can go on to like a chat GPT and undressed Taylor Swift there's no question that we need to be doing something about that. But we in the case of open AI, I would argue it's maybe gone a bit too far and you can't go right now if you go in there and type in show me a picture of Kanye West holding a duck. You can't do it. We've, the open AI has taken away the ability to use anything that is copyrighted. And I don't think enough people are talking about what an issue it is that there is now a public that is that includes creators that has access to a completely gated version of this revolutionary software and a complete other side that are just innovating and functioning with the ungated side of this world and it really brings a question begs the question about unilateral centralization versus decentralization. You know, when you hear about sort of these Taylor Swift pictures that are going on. This is someone who actually has a knowledge of how to use, you know, has is more tech savvy has the is using an open source LLM as opposed to open AI. And where blockchain comes in, I mean, I've obviously just addressed two problems, and where blockchain can solve one of them and not the other the one that blockchain can solve is when, when content is being widely used and accessed over the internet and being built upon an access to blockchain can establish provenance. The IP technically has to be of digital origin. So that's where you see, I saw somebody talk about the chain smokers in the chat. There are when there are certain artists who are dropping their stems online, and in order to download them there is a valid, like a validatable chain, every single time those are downloaded. That is definitely something. You know, it's, it's not perfect. Like this doesn't do away with the need for lawyers, every single thing is going to have its own individual sort of set of challenges but I really think we do need to balance blockchain can help with uphold provenance, but we're going to need something on the other side to help sort of balance between how much do we patrol what content these LLMs have access to, and how much do we, how much do we sort of allow it to have how much do we deal with sort of creating good behavior around it and I could go on around, I could go on about that forever but I just I sort of take it as I do think they're the risk of, I do think there's a risk of just preventing the use of this content in out of the fear that it will be misused. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense and Orson. Are you there, Orson. Oh, sorry, sorry. Orson. Chain smokers. Jay, Jay mentioned something about the chase chain smokers. Do you also know about that topic. I, I'm familiar with a little bit about them. That's I had not heard anything about that at all so please. Well, really, as they mentioned, I think it was mentioned in the chat. Praveen mentioned that a DJ duo. And as you know, DJs like to use a lot of different technologies and shocking all and blitz and all the different things that can make their shows really grab the crowd and engage the crowd. And with the question of this DJ duo, a unique kind of situation. And about what they do. I wasn't familiar with them using the blockchain technology but for I had seen the article on them using AI to change modify some of their voices for for them. I think from that standard, I would say that if they use and modify their own voices that is okay for them to do not to modify other voices of other artists for their work to get paid or to do a show and those artists that they use. So I think it would go back to them using their voices. The blockchain that I see for the artists and the AI use that I see is the the content credentials part of it where I'm telling artists and I've had meetings this week for artists where I've told them do not release an album. Before you put content credentials on it. And I said don't upload it or anything until you put content credentials on it simply because as soon as it gets to a streaming service, etc. A lot of the artists do not read the small print, especially a lot of independent artists do not read the small print they just want to tell their friends I have a piece of music on Spotify. And they don't care what happens with it. And I've been advocate of telling them that's your art. Why would you do that so protect it and now we have mechanisms to protect it. The application that I'm aware of that we know that can do the provenance the authenticity of it, as well as keep that integrity of it was I was having breakfast yesterday with entertainment Lawyer to Nashville. Literally, when explained of how we can protect his artists and the content with content credentials and put it in a have a verifier that can verify that it is from this particular artist at what particular time of the day. And it's theirs and it can be tracked using AI and tracked with using the blockchain. His, I mean, he just couldn't really believe. And so we need to be in the position to help and promote and let people know that there are answers to the bad actors that are causing a lot of this disruption. And I think that one, I can remember Karen, if you mentioned it or if Brett mentioned it in your introduction that you've created so many different things with Ethan, the file baby application, I think, is for provenance and another thing that came up recently in another seminar was the plagiarism of of just not just music, but entertainment where people are using AI to extract different things and types in literature and writing and we've seen the misuse of how AI and I think the big brouhaha of somebody like Stephen King, Arthur Stephen King was really a proponent to say you can't just download all my books and have AI create a whole different story based on my ideas and the things of that nature. So we think that plagiarism, the content content credentials on even if it's just a thesis at someone's university like Dr. Todd, he writes somebody might just say I want to protect my thesis so that some professor doesn't grab from somewhere else and turns it into a book or something like that. And I've read stories like that. So I think we can use that in the blockchain technology, the proper content credentials can help music, artists, entertainers, and I'm looking forward to sharing it and being in this for a long time to help artists that are putting out their original content that can be protected from now on under in this digital space if you will. Thank you, Orson. You're welcome. Thank you very much. And so Andy Rosen. Andy Rosen. I saw you pasted something in the chat. Please remember these buzzwords add ID and EID are so Tony the tiger and and snap crackle and pop right. Andy would you like to explain what you pasted in tools. We got tools. We've had tools for some time, and the tools used to work great. The compliance with mandatory registration of all commercials with that ID is 100% on broadcast and cable. The reason we didn't have a strike among actors in commercial messages is at least in part, due to the fact that those performers have a contract with that through actors equity and all the advertisers that say, yes, that performance will be registered. The problem emerges when, you know, big nasty social networks think they can have a little advantage in the programmatic ad targeting arena by being opaque and using proprietary fires and not letting anybody audit. And yeah, I'll go into this another time. But the history of advertising since the golden age of radio in the United States is marked by self regulation completely voluntary economically mandatory self regulation. This shall not be any major ad campaign budgets assigned to anything that can't be transparently and independently and scientifically audited by the media rating council and the proprietary nature of some certain nasty platforms that you might name tick tock, you know, Facebook, Twitter X and so on. The fact that they're close systems that block the registered identifiers gives me grief. And it doesn't just give Madison Avenue grief. It's driven them to rapid action. So we're doing the right thing. We're doing the right thing for the right reasons. But if you look at this from a no bucks no buck Roger's point of view, we're a pressure group. We're a vehicle. We're a do this because you have to do that in the name of corporate citizenship in the name of economic equity in the name of humanity. Stop stripping the identifiers. Okay, we'll sign them and seal them and put them on an immutable chain. So even if you try you won't succeed. Yeah, that's an implementation detail. We really do need to embrace our brothers on Madison Avenue because this year. And I've seen the Americans who've taken action, at least at one of the three major conglomerates, and I've been in standards meetings on the top floor of the commerce building with the networks and the advertisers and the auditing services and I've seen their differences and literally all hold hands. As long as us, the technologists, you know, last time around it was simply who was house but as a bunch of propeller heads. We really it really is time for us to talk to the usual traditional, you know, cigar chomping Don drapers of the world and say don't worry about it. Yes, yes, we're thrilled with what you're doing. We'll work out all the details. We've done it before. Don't worry about it. We need to do this. It's time for that socialization. You can help us get there Andy. I don't know anybody else who can. Thank you. Thank you. So Brett Russell, Brett Russell. What do you think of all of this. You've got this knowledge and background and blockchain and media and entertainment and this was your spark of an idea to put this group together. So hearing everything that you've heard. What do you how do you envision blockchain playing in an AI infused entertainment industry. Well, I'm, I am completely delighted. The, the input from the, from the, the audience, as well as the membership here is amazing and I'm so pleased. This is a, it is a going to be a challenge and I think that it's a doable challenge and Andy has got a lot of really very important components to add to this and he's, he's going to make a lot of work for some of us I think here and but but the input from everybody is full of standing. The input from, you know, this is doable. We, we, the, the burgeoning technology of blockchain and be it permissioned or public, the potential to use AI and blockchain to harness the advancement or put a saddle on that horse so to speak, I think is is completely doable as I said early on in my present my early statement that AI cannot be trusted but blockchain is trust. Now, certainly, you know, garbage in garbage out in blockchain I understand that concept but as long as we can get the right information in. So as long as AI training models can be verified and the information that is used to train AI is is correct has the right permissions, etc, etc. I think that we as a group can go a long way of building on something that that we're starting here today. So thank you for that Karen and outstanding job. We're we're approaching an hour. It's one o'clock in the Eastern and noon in your area and 10am in the East Coast. Still time for bacon and eggs Todd. So the, I want everyone to know that this is the first of what I hope to be many upcoming meetings. And I'd like to to propose that everyone stay tuned on the LinkedIn chat for for an update on this particular meeting the recording, as well as ideas on the next but there's just a, a wealth of knowledge here and I thank each and every one of you for for participating. It's been fun. It's been enjoyable meeting all of you guys and I hope that it becomes more fun, more productive. And let's let's look forward to our next meeting together. So I thank you all. And everyone stay tuned on LinkedIn we're going to connect with you all will share the video. Have a good look at it will share what's in the chat here, as well from some of the great participants thank you all. I'm Michael Valesco, and, and the other gentlemen on here who was very Alexander and Praveen. So let's, let's. Two is a shout out Pamela Pamela, thank you Pamela, and thank you for all attending. Look forward. Hopefully you're all on the, on the LinkedIn site and that's where the, the video will be posted so you have a look at it and I was well we're going to take some notes from this chat. And we'll add it to our next, we'll add it to our next meeting but thank you all. Have a great day. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you everyone. Good afternoon.