 You know Rita, I think that it's really an interesting thing that, dare I say, you're not dealing with a glamorous topic. You know, if you were like, we're going to fund zoos, everybody loves a zoo or we're going to, you know, plant more trees, everybody loves a tree, you know, you're dealing with some really tough things. Some tough conversations and some complex conversations and a platform that is still rife with myths and misperceptions about who the players are that are involved. And yeah, so all of that makes it a, you know, it's not an easy one to punch with awareness and getting the message out because too often we still have to dig deep and help people understand what's underneath this notion of every child deserves a family. Oh, well, who are these families. Well, why do they do that, you know, and who are these children and why do they act that way. So all of that. And we can elevate it up and bring it up to a simple human conversation but underneath we still have to understand the complexities. Are your, when you use the word complexity and I think that's a wonderful word for this. I mean, COVID alone has got to change so many things but are you seeing structurally and just socially that you're getting new problems or new conditions that you're, I mean this isn't like a one one track problem. I mean, are things changing a lot. You know that they're constantly in flux and child welfare is famous for a pendulum swinging back and forth, and how we think about and how we do business and how we react at a policy level but yes, COVID has made an impact. You know, as, as, as too many adults continue to be involved with substance abuse issues. That's one of those presenting factors for why children go into the foster care system and and the lack of resources for people who are involved in substance issues, COVID pressed a series of economic issues, food insecurity issues, you know, deeper kinds of substance abuse and depression issues, and our children themselves have so many. As a result, right collateral depression or or mental health issues, because of the circumstances they're in not because they're born that way but because of the circumstances and the trauma they've experienced. Yeah, all of that feeds into it. And how do we respond as a country to make sure that we've short up systems to help and, and quite honestly we don't always do the best job with that. Well, you know, it's, it's, it's a Herculean task to be waving this flag and taking it across the nation and really North America. And I'm doing all the things you have to do to run an organization fundraise manager team we're going to get a little into that even more. Welcome everybody to another episode of the nonprofit show. You've joined us hopefully all week because it has just been riveting. We have had the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption with us on all week for one of our rare nonprofit power weeks we only do this a few times a year and we're pretty selective about it because it's really an opportunity for Jared and I to drill down, along with our viewers from all over the world. We'll pick a topic, a thought and then move that through for five consecutive days. We have done that with one of the powerhouses of our nonprofit leadership sector, Rita Sornan and again the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption. Such an interesting thing Rita, we were talking about this earlier. Every day I've left the episode thinking we were going to have one conversation and then it has just spurned so many other ideas throughout the day. And it's been riveting to see. Sometimes when we talk with really high level organization such as yours Rita. Frankly, some of the world that they live in is so far beyond the normal scope of what the nonprofits are doing 1.8 million nonprofits in this country of ours, and they're not all winners. But yours is a winner and yet I feel like you've given us things that even the smallest nonprofit can learn from. And I did not expect that. No, I really didn't. So that's been one of the joys, just one of the joys. Again, here's Rita's information with the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption. Most often, I will put somebody's personal email in this night at this point I better not Rita. It's fine with me I love communicating with folks know. Well, you can check out the their website it's amazing it has a lot of really interesting components resources. And dare I say Rita, not for just the topic of adoption and foster care but really for nonprofit management. And that's what I think is a magical thing and why we have you here. Again, I want to thank all of our presenting sponsors who joined with us and supported. I'm this amazing conversation that we've had all week with Rita Stornan and her team at the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption. Okay, you know Rita. This is Friday. This is asking answered. And I've got to say I've never done this before but I'm asking the first question. I'm Joe, I'm Julia officially. I'm unmasking myself from Phoenix, Arizona. And this is something I've really been thinking about Rita you deal with a heavy subject that's difficult and pressure field. How do you combat compassion fatigue, and not become overstressed. That's such a great question and it's applicable to any nonprofit manager I think because every nonprofit manager is dealing with an issue that's heavy that's loaded. That's important. But but for us when I think about you know my first default is no matter how whatever pity party I might be having for myself. I think about our children in foster care and what they experience every day and the profound trauma they've experienced, and that will always trump my sense of, well I'm overwhelmed will know, no I'm not overwhelmed compared to what our children experience, but I can't also negate feelings that I have sometimes of sadness or, or frustration or anger at a system that moves too slowly on behalf of children so I then look at the success stories and, and if folks are interested on our website we've got lots of videos of success stories of families that have said yes, you can video lesson share our story. And they're amazing and they're uplifting and, and it exemplifies the human condition in so many ways that that a child who had to have her brother in a hotel room all by herself, when they were abandoned, was able to find through one of our programs, a family and now she can just act like a normal teen and not like a mother to her brother. Those kind of stories remind me that there's a light at the end of this tunnel, that there is something good in every day, no matter how much bad you may see, and that it's my responsibility to stay energized to stay positive to stay forward and to stay heartfelt about this because if I go off the deep end, then you know we've lost. Right now, do you have any practical advice for us like do you take walks or do you read or do you exercise like what are some of the things that you do maybe, maybe even in the office but off outside of the office to reinvigorate yourself outside I am a what a professional walker. And during COVID I started listen you know what would I started listening to podcasts which I hadn't been doing before and so I'd alternate my favorite music look I'm a 70s music lover I'll alternate my, my favorite music with the with an uplifting podcast or sometimes crazily a true crime broadcast brain thinking right so yes walking. Look I was a literature major a way back when and so fiction I will always get absorbed into a book and fiction someday I may actually write something I love writing. So those kinds of things that are very personal to me yes but walking walking walking walking I can walk off the worst of day at no time. You know, I think that's great and I appreciate that because I think you know we have this the great resignation going on we have an aging of leadership in our country. We have compassion fatigue, and you mix all of those up and it's a recipe for vast swaths of leaders just to say, yeah, can't do it. I've been hearing more and more nonprofits and not just little tiny ones but significant size nonprofits where the leadership comes in and it's like, here are my files here's my laptop I'm sorry, I can't do any more. My family is asking me to stop. It's gotten to that point and so I'm trying to ask more leaders this question, you know what do you do, because it's, it's so important and I appreciate you being transparent and honest about it because it's tough thing and you know I think as a leader we're always like, if I'm above this I can you know I'm the leader and it's like yeah, no we have those moments and it's, it's, it's really brutal so. Okay, well thank you that's a great way to get started it helps me and I know it will help a lot of our viewers. We've got Tina from Lexington Kentucky he's written in. How much time do you spend with your board chair outside of the normal board meetings and governance. It is a good question and and it probably differs for everyone, but for me and if you haven't heard anything else during this week communication is critical. I think looping your board chair into into anything so that there's never a surprise, developing a robust relationship with the board chair is important. There's a very fine line, of course, between micromanagement and and need to know and communication, very fine line but I think that that I've always had great relationships both with my board and my board chair because I'm open, transparent and communicative and how often we have quarterly board meetings and then we also have quarterly committee meetings I think I've got six active committees. The board chair blesses heart sits on all of those committees and so we're we're in communication on constantly. We have a formal monthly meeting that we have that sometimes we may spend 10 minutes in it other times we may spend an hour depending on what's going on. So there's a lot of communication but it never feels like he's questioning or micromanaging, it's really information sharing. Now, can you add to that what your term limit is for your board chair, and I'm interested to ask you if you have like a board chair elect, or did you have like do you have a path so everybody knows what that cycle is going to be what does that look like. Yeah, our board terms are two three year terms, and then our our officer position so the board chair, he can serve up to two two year terms in that he or she in that position, and then we do have a vice chair. So the expectation typically but it doesn't always happen that way is that the vice chair is there learning and a part of the process and then can move into a chair position. Do you use an emeritus board system where by you move off your termed out officers or board members into another board. We have not used it as robustly as others have when Mrs. Thomas was still alive she. Mr Thomas was of course the original board member, he moved into an emeritus position Mrs Thomas sat on our board for quite some time. She moved into an emeritus position so we've utilized it for Thomas family members but we have not utilized it in general something for us to continue to think about. Interesting. Well Tina, I hope that helps you. The thing I'm hearing. And again, for the whole week communication, just because you're not sitting in front of them doesn't mean you don't have some sort of, you know, email threads are following sending off information. Yeah, is your board chair in your community. He's in South Carolina. Okay, yeah. So that that even makes it more of a profound effort I mean you have to really make sure that you are actively building that relationship in that communication stream. And there's ongoing communication with the board as a whole between meetings as well particularly during coven. I made sure that every other week every three weeks there was a, there was a fairly substantial email that went out the board members to let them know how we were doing what was going on how the staff was feeling what risks we might, we were perhaps mitigating because they needed to know that to absolutely so there are times when there's more communication than others. Tina's like, Lady, I just had this one question, but I got to add another question. Do you use a digital board portal. We do we use board effect. I don't know if that's one. Oh, yeah, good. Yeah, and we started that maybe five years ago and so absolutely they've gotten at first they weren't as keen on using it but they've gotten used to because that's where you post all of our board materials and collateral information. So anything in terms of nonprofits and their roles and responsibility of nonprofits, a collateral materials on what's happening in child welfare and you know, all those kinds of things get posted up there some use it more than others but it's there available to them. Good good for you. You know, I would say you you all were early adopters. If you started that five years ago. That's that's remarkable. Because, yeah, good for you. That's really, really important. Okay, so now we go to James in Orange County, California. Do you use virtual meetings with your board and does this work. Do you have any suggestions for helping us make our virtual meetings more productive and engaging. Again, great question prior to coven. No, we would allow a board members to join on a conference call before we all got expert at Facebook or at, you know, FaceTime and teams and zoom. But, and, but I have a board that really is committed to attending in person and they come from all across the country so we have nearly 100% participation pre covered. As soon as COVID hit of course we switched to a virtual meeting, but what we also did and I think this is important because I sit on other boards where this isn't the same. As soon as we switch to a virtual meeting and we won't be meeting in person again until March of next year we're looking forward to hopefully that's we can reconvene. We took what was a two and a half hour meeting down to an hour and a half, because we wanted to make sure that people didn't lose interest they didn't get fidgety in their seats. I sit on another board where we have four hours in meetings and I get fidgety fidgety and I, I, I lose in track sometimes during a four hour meeting so one, I think it's important to shorten them if you can. We found we were much more efficient, quite honestly, we made our committee meetings much more efficient in order to respond to a shortened board meeting and that's been effective all around. Will I continue with shortened board meetings when we can meet in person probably not because that relationship time that that getting together time the extended conversation that people might be willing to do when you're face to face that you're not as willing to do virtually. I'm not going to go back to two to two and a half hour meetings, but what we found is a much more robust and effective committee system will stay intact and those we probably will keep virtual because they're again because we're spread throughout the country it's easier to have committee meetings virtually. Now I would imagine by doing this, the virtual aspect it really put pressure on the use of your board portal. Yes, right I mean in order to truncate your meetings. You're going to have to have gone somewhere right. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's been, you know, and now also, you know, we recently moved into a new building we've got a little bit more enhanced technology so when we do meet in person, we probably will institute rather than a phone conference where you can't see someone probably institute that visual for those people who can't attend. Now when you have your board meetings, because you have folks coming in from across the country. I'm assuming these are like a two day event I mean they're probably pretty managed right over a period of time not just a typical, you know, five to seven five to nine board meeting kind of thing. Right right and you know every now and then we try to have certainly a dinner before a gathering before so that we can have some of that informal get together time or something afterwards. We do keep it pretty efficient though so people can get back on an airplane and get out of there at the day of the board meeting. Again we don't extend this into a two day meeting it's it's we keep it pretty tight. And they seem to want it that way now on my board is unique because because of our relationship with the Wendy system. We have a percentage of our members who are sweet sweet sweet Wendy's executives we have a percentage of our members who are franchisees, and then a percentage of our members who are what we call outside the Wendy system they're the kind of experts that sit on any board that add value to to the conversation for us in the child welfare system and research and data and that kind of thing. And then Thomas family members so it's a it's a unique structure I think that may be a little bit different than some boards as well. Is that something that's dictated through your bylaws or is that just something that you have naturally gravitated towards it initiated through the bylaws and and early on it was almost exclusively Wendy's sitting on the board. And so we've been able to evolve that over the years to say that again this can't just be Wendy's responsibility, even at a governance level. And so we've been able to really shift it toward making sure we have lots of outside representation on the board as well. Now, again, James, I've like amplified your question. Sorry about that but that's kind of good. I'm hearing from boards across this country that are saying, we really liked the virtual component. And I'm hearing this from board members who say, you know what, I can be in I can be present. I don't have to block out so much time. Now on the opposite hand, I'm hearing from staff management and even even the board officers are like, we need to get back in person because we're not gelling as a group. We're not meeting that serendipity of, well I know so and so or let me make this introduction or, and so I'm wondering what you are seeing, especially since your folks have to travel in. I'm hearing from my board members that they're anxious to be back together in person, but I'm wondering to if as we get back in person and continue to assess the success that we had for almost two years virtually, if there might be a hybrid that you know we need four times a year perhaps at least one of those is a virtual meeting or two of those are virtual meetings. So, you know, yet to be determined, but I think I want to really, really get feedback from the board honest feedback of what, what is going to work best because virtually you're right, we had virtually 100% participation for those for that time when other times you know we'll have one or two or three people that just can't make it. It's such an interesting change with the overall workplace. Yeah, I mean how we get things done. Exactly. I mean even parent teacher conferences are now digital I mean, you know, so I mean it's it's across the board in our, and our culture, how we how we navigate this. Okay, Tara from El Paso, Texas writes in. How would you describe your leadership style. What works for you and where would you make changes. Yeah, yeah, that's a tough one to think about because it's a mirror. My first knee jerk response to that is look, I work really hard to hire excellent people. And so I trust them to do their job. I am not a micromanager, but I need to know. So, again, it's that fine line between and growth has changed that a lot when we were just a staff of five. My fingers were in everything I approved everything I saw and oversaw everything. I can't do that now that we're a staff of 50 plus. And it so it's been a gradual evolution for me on what is my leadership style and what's important. It's important for me to trust my team to do the right thing to work as hard as they can, and to get results. Now, do we have accountability of course do we have performance management of course, but how can I guide them there. How can I help emerging leaders also lead. I want everyone to be able to grow as leaders in this organization or grow as leaders in the next organization that they grow go to, but feel as if they've gotten that from this organization. So, I think, I think that's it I'm not a micromanager I'm hands off, but I'm certainly a need to know because we protect so many brands, right. Our name is Dave Thomas we protect the Dave Thomas brand. We work with the Wendy's company we have a program called Wendy's wonderful kids. I have to protect every day that brand. And this notion of protecting the brand of what is childhood is so critical to me because making childhood a priority in this is something we strive to do every day. So what goes out the door and how it represents us is certainly something that I have eyes on all the time. What would I change. I probably might be a little bit more deliberate in when when we're onboarding new people of making sure that they understand the history and, and we do that now but as we've grown so quickly. We're understanding the history and the culture of who we are and why we're here that they do understand the date on the story and they, they do share our same values about permanency is for everyone, I believe people have that coming in the door, but making sure that's much more routine every day and what we do so that this organization feels solid as as a culture. I don't know, know what else I would change that's I think about that. You know that's interesting because my observation from talking with you in this short period of time. And I've spent a lot of time on your website reading you have some really cool. I would call benchmark kind of articles if you will that show the trajectory of your growth and, and it puts it in context of I think American culture really well. With an organization that's changing or has changed so much and continues to change the cultural aspects got to be kind of a heavy lift. It's a heavy lift and you know pre covered before we purchased this building we have grown so much we were actually split between two buildings. The program team was in one building and everybody else was and we were close, but it could have been 100 miles away because you know groups gel in the space that you're in. We're so looking forward in June, before COVID hit June of 2020 to coming back together and redefining who we were that got further just sort of blown away by covered when we were in our individual cases, right, and just didn't have that opportunity through email or video communication to figure out who we are as a company culture so that's why coming back to the office this year in particular and next is so important to me to really begin to redefine and to address those major social issues that occurred over the past couple of years, and how they impact us and how they impact the folks that we work with so it's going to be a major portion of what we're facing in a good way. Over the next 12 to 18 months. Well, I would be, I would imagine that because you are so research oriented and I would use the words research open. You're going to start to get a lot of data points that come into an amplify what maybe you were hearing or you were feeling but again it's like almost another push of change. That's, that's going to be coming at you and we're not through this. It's going to be a pandemic. I mean, it's, it's so I would imagine it's going to be a rocky road, just from the amount of knowledge that you're taking in and trying to regurgitate back out or figure out solutions for those issues of just staffing policies. We are, we took a really serious look at ourselves. Should we offer some sort of hybrid flexibility for for teams, we found we could work really well from home to our advantage and maybe to our disadvantage. So can we offer and we are we're going to offer some flexibility. You know what are those covert related policies that will continue to evolve internally that that the staff feels comfortable and one thing that we did is took continual steps through surveys with staff as well. How are you feeling about this what do you think about this so that it didn't feel like management was just making decisions in absence of input. Ultimately we have to make those decisions but I think that can be translated to things beyond coven to which we weren't doing before I wasn't really taking pulse points I was talking with staff it wasn't really asking what do you believe about this how do you feel about that so that's something that will continue to evolve. I think you're not alone I mean it this period of of our our history has changed the way we behave in so many ways and as you know my my co host Jarrett ransom always says you know the nonprofit sector was due for a major shakeup and it will it will ultimately be our finest time. I think so too. And we might not know it right now we might not be like opening ourselves up to it in a you know come at us way but ultimately it will help. Jamison from Los Angeles writes. Where do you get new ideas strategies and inspiration. Also is there a process that you go to to find thinking time rather than working time that allows for strategic thinking. Well I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you absolutely. I mean phenomenal and that second question I'll answer first. I can't stress strongly enough that I don't care how busy your day is I don't care what you have to manage that you have got a block time that no one can interfere with and it shouldn't just be lunchtime right if you figure out what day of the week or what time of the week that you can think best you can close your door and react best. Absolutely I block time on my calendar now is it immutable no sometimes I have to I have to break through that but absolutely block time on my calendar that is for just that strategic thinking planning writing, whatever it is that will help enhance my day and my effectiveness. It's absolutely critical that's the number one thing I think that and a change that I've made over the past few years. Ideas strategies inspiration look I get them from other folks, I get them from the children we serve. They're the strongest voices in this right. There's a common phrase in any cause I think nothing about me without me. How can we, how can we do the best job if we don't have the voices of youth who've been impacted by this so making sure that we're listening to those voices and incorporating their thoughts, but talking to other. I've got a crew of colleagues across the nation that I've, I've just built over the past 20 years that I depend on and, you know, I just had one of my quarterly check ins with one of those and we're in a similar situation and a number of ways with just little, you know, nitpick things that are going on and to have someone else to be able to share that and talk about it and hear her incredible ideas about something so I get the best of ideas certainly from my staff of course they're they're a talented amazing and and you all had the opportunity to meet one of them this week that's just one. They're all that amazing. So staff, but colleagues really help with those inspirations and ideas and then I do a lot a lot a lot a lot of reading you know I'm on everybody's list serve. And that's part of that that time to just sit and explore either news or or or other published pieces and get ideas and strategies from from them as well. And the board members look you cannot go through a committee meeting or a board meeting without somebody saying have you thought about this. And rather than being defensive and thinking here we go again you know board member has another great idea. No, it might be another great idea so being open to those great board ideas to I love that it might be a great idea. That's hilarious. Well yeah I mean I think that's one of those things is that we can get in our own way and we can be resistant to ideas that aren't ours. As a leader I think that's really hard and I'll tell you read it. I see this a lot with high performing founders founders of organizations that links into founder syndrome. I mean it's it's kind of one of those things that a lot of times we will see these higher level leaders not be so collaborative or even have an open heart and mind to take in new information and so it becomes quite a stumbling block. Well this has been amazing amazing amazing transformative for me transformative for Jared ransom, the nonprofit nerd we talked about this offline every day. And most people might be surprised to know but you know Jared and I were 20 years in age difference we don't socialize in the same circles we don't work together on projects we really only work together on this and we. We don't come together really except for this show. I think that's one of those things that also keeps it fresh, but every day afterwards we've been texting or calling and saying did you. Could you believe this did you hear that you know it's it's so it's really been a transformative in so many ways and that's the power of this very very rare nonprofit power week and that's what we call it that so that we can get that engagement. We've got several episodes that kind of follow an arc and that tied together all about strong leadership of nonprofits from the origination story with Mr Thomas and the wins when Wendy's franchise and business model, all the way through to this amazing work that we've done so how CEOs and development directors work together was riveting impacting change with policy, fabulous we learned a lot about that. Again, meeting the leader in the champion, we've been blessed to have five days of this. And it's been subtle but it's been a really great tutorial on what it takes to navigate through. And then again the power of collaboration I would say Rita that's been a thread throughout the week. Yeah, yeah. Listen, it has been my honor, and my pleasure to work with the two of you to get to know the two of you better. And just to have that you've made me think about things that I haven't necessarily had the opportunity to chat about in this way so it has been, believe me, a blessing for me. Every day we were like, is she going to show up because this is a heavy left. But we are thrilled it's been really amazing. Again, you can find all these episodes in our archive, Vimeo, Roku, Amazon Fire TV YouTube our own website, the nonprofit show.com, the American nonprofit academy.com. Here's Rita's information, really a powerhouse. I would try and connect with her on LinkedIn, first and foremost, absolutely, so that you can see what she's responding to and what she's thinking about it's fascinating and so that's a great way to learn how a powerhouse works in one of the most venerable organizations in our country. Again, the Dave Thomas Foundation for adoption really needs to be on your radar I don't care what it is you're doing there's so many lessons I think we can get from something like this. And again, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors without you, we wouldn't have had this opportunity of really profound discussions for an entire week with Rita and the foundation. Wow. Okay Rita, you're off the hook for releasing me. Well we've already kind of asked you on the slide, can we get Jill back. Absolutely. Talk about the relationship between marketing and development. We haven't had anyone on that that could talk about running, leading both of those divisions in the same place and we thought that was really profound. It would be great. Yeah, it was really neat. Well, you are a national treasure. I am so honored that that our paths crossed and that we were able to get you to talk with us with such intelligence and such vulnerability I've learned a lot. And it has really made me love the nonprofit sector in our country, even more. Thank you. Good things happen in this country and good things happen with nonprofits it's a uniquely American situation. I travel all over this world talk with people all over the world and this is one of the marquee aspects of our culture and so it's people like you who lead us through this and it's really amazing so I thank you. Thank you. Thank you thank you thank you. It's been great. Hey, as we end every episode, and especially this week. We want to remind our viewers to stay well. So you can do well. We'll see you back here on Monday. Thank you Rita.