 As we wind up let me know also what are your thoughts about death because you know that people believe when you die your soul goes somewhere we are going to have Sikuiakiyama what are your thoughts about death? No first people should stop worrying about death because we are all going to die so let's not like worry about death nobody has ever died and come and told us we yeah so why are we worrying nobody has come and told us it's a bad thing to die nobody has told us there's a good place we go to so if you just die don't I think here's the thing this is how I think about death death is the end of life that's it the end of life as we know it the life that I have right now when I die I'll have no life whatever happens after that nobody really knows and for me I don't care that's not my business yeah What's up everybody welcome to SPM buzz they call me super host miss kethingi thank you so much for joining us today on buzz with stars Today I am going to be introducing my guests in a short while but before I do that in case you have not subscribed Kindly make sure you do because we are heading to 200k subscribers and when you subscribe We are going to be a step ahead subscribed All right. Thank you so much for doing that. Now my guest for today is the president and the founder of Aethist Society in Kenya He is known as mumia Mumia because now he was called Harrison. I'm not so sure if he's using that name I just called Harrison mumia still okay for now I think that's still fine But of course I attempted to change my names Which did not work out because of the legal issues Okay, it takes a bit of time but I reverted to Harrison mumia because that's what's on my id But you know the thing is Harrison is not my name. That's a name that was given to me By my parents And it has nothing to do with the fact that I am a lawyer. This is an English name So the point is that I don't like using My English name because it has not it doesn't represent who I am In terms of where I come from my my my history as a person my identity as a lawyer And that is is something which I would urge Kenyans to actually also rethink Wa mama wa ache kuita Watoto wa ojina za sijiki Christo za kizungu za kiharabu Let's take to our african roots. I think that's going to really really help us even you know understand ourselves more Yeah, yeah, okay. Now, please tell us who is uh mumia Mumia is an atheist Mumia doesn't believe in the existence of god Mumia does not believe that there is a supernatural realm What I mean by that is I don't believe in like spirits you hear people saying We have spirits, you know in us or we are a spirit or we are a working spirit or we have spirits outside Or we are governed by spirits. I don't believe in that So mumia in particular does not believe in the existence of the biblical god Cause you know, this is that's a different god It doesn't believe in the god of the The the the arabs because that's a muslim god He doesn't believe in the devil so people say the devil has done this, you know I I was looking for a job and the devil I'm allowed to Mest up my plans So I don't believe the devil exists. I don't believe also that there is heaven Or we are going to go to a nice place after we die called heaven I don't believe in hell that we're going to be punished those of us who maybe don't believe in god Yeah, mumia is uh an it person. I did it in jqat Uh mumia is uh Ransa company uh digital marketing company And uh mumia is somebody who is enthusiastic about life because mumia believes This is the only life that we have. There's no other life. We only have this life And uh mumia having founded the atheist in kenya society encourages Kenyans to understand that this is the only life today is your day think about it Don't wait for another day when you're going to be saved and god is going to do this Today is your day. Just make the best of your current life And you you know and that that way you're going to appreciate the importance of this life We mumia is also an antithaist. You know what that means Antithaist means I am actually very opposed to Religious belief for example We we criticize a lot of what goes on in religion when people say, you know A pastor comes up and says Come to my church. There are miracles miracle sunday, you know, it's gonna be a miracle crusade. You hear you see these posters and And uh and billboards everywhere You're gonna have this miracle crusade and it's gonna be reverent this from the us And reverent that from i don't know where then all these people are converging and everybody comes there believing There's gonna be a miracle. I want to advise kenyans There is no crusade that is going to turn around your life Nan You know just don't go to these crusades That they're just there to make you feel like god's presence is there, but there's there's nothing mumia doesn't believe that kenyans should be going to church because There is nothing you get from church Kenyans should actually just stop going to church Stay at home. There's so much to do. I normally tell kenyans There is so much to do on Sundays But but you know people don't get it you can wake up in the morning clean the house If you have some little money you can go for a walk this karura forest that you can go to the national park You can go to a library you can go watch a movie at garden you can do so much Instead of going to church, you know right now we have the internet you can also learn something from youtube Church is no longer relevant in 2023 for anybody We are past church and anybody who still thinks church either in matter which church, you know Sda's will come and tell me you know sabat day and all that you wasting a whole saturday You know in in in a church yet yet, you know There's so much you can do you can learn something that can help your life So that is mumia in In a nutshell Yes Okay mumia now you see the question that comes into my mind and i'm sure so many other people are watching Is if you don't believe there is a god how would you explain your existence The existence of the universe takes an existence of the earth and everything else that is in here Yeah, you see, you know, you know What people don't realize is We were all born Into this earth By our mothers that's that's basically what happened that one we are sure of Yeah And before that your mum and dad had sex that is again something we know So we come to the world and find a world That has so many things going on. There's the sun There's the moon There are other people There are mountains So um That is now where science comes in Kus once you come to this before just before the science comes in How would you explain you know now? Um that whole exercise of yes our parents coming together You getting born is is that science or how would you explain that whole process? Oh no being born is science because what basically happens is You have the sperm which has some DNA and you know your mother's Spam your mother's eggs and your Fathers spams they have some DNAs You know each one of them has some DNA makeup they fuse the DNA fuse and the process of you know Multiplying of those cells begins and that's how you're here So that is biology that is science So we understand how people came to exist on earth. We know we know it's actually science So we we we came from our mothers That's really as as simple as it gets. I don't know why we're trying to complicate this thing Because that is where we came from but I know um like you mentioned You don't believe in the biblical aspect here But you know according to the bible they claim you know The beginning there was you know adam and eve who came together to multiply and of course, you know They started the family aspect started from those two people Where did our mothers and our ancestors? Where did they come from? So this is now what I'm saying. We now have science That has explained How uh What something called variation Variation is the for example if I'm to have a child with you He will take some of your characteristics and some of my characteristics. He may be he may be like Me in some way and like you in some way. That's called variation. So variation is explains Uh a lot of How How we've come to exist So if you look at it now, that's I'm going to explain something that people need to look up on the internet Variation is the reason we are here as human beings But it's also the reason cuts are there and dogs are there and elephants and plants Variation is is is the way We regenerate the next species yeah of of of animals and plants So we know that we are here because of variation because of the variation of of of like monkeys Monkeys of a long period of time Have have now we have various species of monkeys monkeys. We have the bonobos. We have gorillas We have all these things chimpanzees That is because of variation of a period of time Evolution gave rise to this variance of species And we are also variants of of of species. We are basically apes human beings are actually also a product of the variation of species Now that explains who we are. We are just apes. We are basically Apes that are called human beings monkeys are apes that are called monkeys So Going back. We don't know. We don't know what happened at the beginning Yeah, that's a thing because now that we are here. We really don't know what happened We don't know how did all this variation begin where was the first form of life Nobody has been able to answer that question Not the bible not the scientists So we we we we don't know and I don't think we never know because We don't have the A lot of data to rely on we have some Things we can rely on but we don't have enough information to say Categorically, this is how it all began But we we have some timelines. I think the first life form maybe Came about maybe billions of years ago. Maybe Two three billion years ago is when the first life form form on earth Started to exist We know that it was not must have been some some little cells Maybe in a paddle of water or something like that, but now we don't know How that arrived here There are some theories which suggest that it was through other planets That other planets by colliding with the earth Deposited the elements that are necessary for the formation of life You know nitrogen hydrogen and all these things And that is how because that is how we came about We don't the fact is we don't know these are just people who are trying to speculate What I can tell you is adam and eve never existed The garden of Eden never existed never existed. There was no fruit of knowledge those things never existed You know, there was no snake or serpents never existed so my my My my plea to most people who believe in in in the bible Is to understand that the stories in the bible, especially the creation story is not true It doesn't it's not a factual story. Yeah, it's not like a fact That's the most important thing here on our side as atheists Is that we don't really know I mean and I'm content not knowing actually I'm happy to have come from my mom These are things I'll just discover as I move on Remember we have like 80 years 70 years to be here maybe 90 years Yeah, just try and discover just learn as much as you can. You won't be here forever We never came from adam and eve as the first people but We we have enough knowledge to sort of see where science is taking us Science is taking us to a place. It has given us enough clue that we we must have existed With two three. I mean three billion years ago We began to exist as living organisms Over that period. We know that a lot of variation has taken place Natural selection took place animals adapted to the environment We had Others merging you know like Species that are mating to produce new species and things like those now. We know that We don't know we don't know where the first human beings even we don't know how life actually began Yeah, nobody nobody knows Yeah There are aspects of the bible that you probably believe because we have Uh things like Jerusalem. It's there. We have Egypt. We have pyramids. They are there We've seen them in the bible. We have aspects of the bible that You know you can actually attach to real life experiences Are there aspects of the bible that you believe in? Yeah, yeah, you know like if you look at uh Jerusalem exists, there are actually places that exist. There are even rivers river Euphrates and Tigris. I think those ones Exist so we don't dispute that the bible was written by human beings Not inspired by god These are just guys who are living in the Middle East And uh, they wrote the bible They had their own weird stories Are you aware that there is a story in the bible where god actually fought with some guy And then and god lost that battle like physically they fought at night the whole night So those stories of course are not true But uh There are things like Jesus walking on water that never happened We we we are even not sure whether Jesus existed if you look at the book of revelations There's an animal In the book of revelations With seven heads You know, they say that you know in the in the last days they'll be these seven headed animal I don't know walking with I don't know how many eyes Those things will never happen But now there are certain things like the the geography of The bible even Egypt is mentioned. We know Egypt exists So I think we we we agree that the locality of The bible in terms of geography. Yes, it was written based on the The the The Middle Eastern Sort of region that is where the bible was was based the writing and the people who wrote it The problem we have is the stories Yeah, it is those weird stories in the bible that we we totally object to that never happened Are well swallowing somebody for three days Jonah was swallowed for three days And Jonah was swallowed and he was in a well Stomach for three days If you look at a well stomach, there's no stomach of a well that can accommodate a human being nothing There's none. So, you know this kind of things you wonder why why why should we be taught Even told to read these books in the bible. So that is where the problem is we have a problem with The stories in the bible that don't make sense to a normal human being. Yeah, if you look at for example You know God God God Comes On top of a mountain and tells Moses take these 10 commandments And then in the 10 commandments One of them is do not kill And Moses received the tablets walks with them down the mountain And when he gets there he finds these people Worshipping What it was a A cow or something like that Then God kills them And in the commandment one of the commandments is do not kill God just kills these guys Maybe he has the power to do that That's what they say He has the power to give them One of the which is do not kill then you go killing people and these are so and even things like forgiveness think about it Jesus Christ Is considered to be the son of God and he came and you know we are supposed to be forgiven our sins But of course we need to believe in him So what kind of God imposes Such kind of conditions on human beings So these are some of the things in the bible we find to be very very strange like you don't expect A God to say hey, I love you so much But I have a son, you know you have to believe in this son He died for your sins and if you don't do that it's gonna be a problem That's not a good God. That's a very very bad God That's a God who should never be believed. The biblical God is actually a very bad God Actually the biblical God and the Islam God, the God of Muslims, those are very bad Gods I don't know why Africans are following these people Because these people are not gonna help us and they are also you know, they just instill fear in us You know do not do this God comes up with all sorts of things do not If you look at the Old Testament he even prescribes what we should not eat Which is none of his business We should be eating whatever we want to eat. We make yogurt. It's not in the bible. We make chocolate. It's not the bible We eat anything if we find something interesting Uji we eat whatever but see God comes and says, you know, don't eat this don't eat that Then if you look at the science of the bible, it's a mess because God actually also says you shall not eat birds including the bat We know the bat is not a bird. It's a mammal. So there's a lot of problems Problematic propositions in the bible. I'm just urging Kenyans to Just take that book throw it away. There's so many books You know, I wake up every morning and I look at the internet There are so many people who are writing beautiful books That can help us In our lives more than the bible financial There's something called financial any financial Being financial having some financial knowledge To understand how to manage your finances people don't know how to do that how to save blah blah blah, you know Now you want to take a book and learn some financial literacy That is a better way of spending your time learn about for example, uh things like Depression how to deal with depression Under this economic time stop the bible never be a solution to kenya's problems And I just hope this message is gonna reach as many people because In kenya when you talk that way You you you're not well received because people just have a problem with people who Realize that this book doesn't make sense. So for us, we agree. There are some facts that make sense Especially the geographical facts You know, we we know that there are some rivers the the location itself exists. I don't think A lot of the bible we know somebody somebody could have existed Who used to perform some not miracles Those were just fake things. He was just moving around trying to You know blind people with some some some very interesting stuff miracles don't happen. That's what people need to understand There's nothing like a miracle Like for example, if you are in a car and then it gets an accident And then you come out alive and others die. That's not a miracle That's what it is that a car had an accident and you got out alive It's not a miracle But mumia, let me ask you at what point did you start, you know now believing Not believing in god, you know, is it uh You know in in school Did you grow up in a family like that or is it an experience that happened in your life that Said you to believe there's no god. Oh, so it's not an experience I grew up in a christian family. My mum up to now prays for me My mum is a prayerful you give him a call And he tells you don't worry god is gonna help us through you just they are listening Thinking my mum don't you read the like the news don't you know Like who I am or something, but he believes that one day I will also you know Sort of change and become a god fear in kind of sun But uh, you know what happens is once you grow up I mean you take your own path. We are not our fathers. We are not our parents human beings Your parent plays a role in your life and then you have to determine what you believe So that's why people even switch to islam other switch to buddhism Many kenyans are actually switching. They are looking for something other switch to spirituality So I grew up in a christian family and I Went to church even god saved at one time But I think what happened is I started examining some of these things closely I examined the christian religion the muslim religion I realized that even historically we africans never believed in these things So, you know, I was asking myself why are we even taking up some of these stories as truths The other thing is uh, I looked at the text the bible the koran that they seem to be having You know some similar Storyline, but most of those stories did not make sense to me Now I thought about a god who created the universe then you look at the suffering of the world Then, you know, you you try to wonder Is it possible that god created the world And has allowed so much suffering. It doesn't make sense to me. I think a god who creates a world Should be concerned about happiness Of that world, but people come and say People have free will no A god who wants to make people happy just makes them happy. You don't now tell them I've given you free will go kill whoever you want to kill. No, you don't do that So I think the whole concept of god stopped making sense to me some years back And now that is when I declared myself to be an atheist Register the atheist in kenya society, which I'm happy the government Allowed us to register after a lot of struggle by the Even this government, you know, you go to the offices. Everybody's a believer So when you want to register an atheist organization, they don't want So I I have taken a journey to understand the world All I can tell you even you Is that We are in this world to experience it Whatever you you you know, you you believe if you believe in god I just want to say there's nothing like god somewhere who is Waiting for you to die for him to receive you or helping you to do abc and you know Um We are just here as human beings just like you know, the funny thing is that there's no much difference between us What people don't realize us and cockroaches There's really no difference like cockroaches live and die us we live and die Cockroaches have their own things they like doing you know working in the kitchen as we have a lot of other things We are doing working and you know, you know having families Ultimately what people need to understand is that there's no much difference between our existence And those of other we are just as much animals and plants as anything else Yeah, we just hear to experience the world within that short time and we are gone And the next generation comes and it goes and so Let people not waste time Thinking there's a god Trying to do things for them that will be of a lot of help to many people Yeah, you know mumia i'm really interested because there are mathas and you know African parents who are watching you and they're like no way we need to pray for him We need to pray for him How was your mathas reaction? Did you actually go and tell her now? This is what I believe in. How was it? No, you know what happened is that my story was published in the newspapers The first time it was published My mum read it my dad read it They called me and told them yeah me na manekist And we had a conversation. Why don't you believe in god blah blah blah I told them these are my reasons my reasons. I don't think god exists because there's no evidence I don't see anything god is doing I don't I don't see any correlation between our life and a god somewhere The bible doesn't make sense to me the Koran doesn't make sense to me So we had a conversation and Do you know what today my mum actually prays for me You know, my mum looks at me and thinks I am healthy Because he prays for me And I'm thinking to myself I go to the gym I eat fruits. I try to eat healthy. I don't drink too much. I mean You know, but he thinks you know mumia, you know you I pray for you That is why you are able to blah blah blah you know mums They are happy they pray for you and they think that's why you you're living the way you are But that's not the case Prayers don't work. I think that is the the whole thing Prayer which is basically communicating to god How do you communicate to an entity that does not exist? You know where I live there is a church Next to where I live normally there are keshas a whole night a kesha There's a kesha that's happening a whole night I do ask myself Does god need people To walk into a building and shout a whole night for him to listen Think about it if you god is to help you do something Will you tell you hey, hey, hey, no I have so many other issues Until I see you shouting a whole night, then I'll think about it You know Just think about it. So sometimes I wonder do even people reason because I think what kenyas you just do is just Just reason just use your brains Just reason and most of your answers are just here Think about prayer Why should a god who knows you need something want you to pray to him just basic logic Which people have refused to engage and that is where we are in these problems I mean ideally if Sometime they wonder is a problem that kenyas can't be critical thinkers or what Because if you're a critical thinker you can't go to church you can't read the bible Actually, you can't even believe in god as a critical thinker you should not believe in god But I think people have so many challenges And religion also thrives a lot when there is poverty and there is a lot of suffering a lot of struggle A lot of women who are watching I know because women are the ones who go to church more than men I think the problem is that people are struggling in life Ladies you know children and all these things and I think those challenges just overwhelm people And then they think you know what let me just turn to god and that's why you go to facebook You find ladies calling themselves gods child. You nothing amazes me like why you you not gods child It's not god Somebody calls themselves gods favorite like what kind of names are these? I just wonder But mumia there is a time you posted up a picture and you said you believe in an invisible god What does that mean? No no no no I think I'm not sure I posted that Invisible god No, let me put it very clear here If I did that don't take that post seriously because There is nothing like an invisible god There is no god There is no god yeah so you can't say there is an invisible god I'd like to see that post because I need to pull it down I need to pull it down Because that's that's that's My account was hacked Invisible god No, I don't believe in god, but but but I cannot you can't believe in an invisible god because god is To me god does not exist God is not like visible or invisible he just simply doesn't exist for me that is how I basically I can't see that, but I think invisible god Invisible god, I would never put those two words in one sentence an invisible god As mumia because I believe god doesn't exist. What is invisible to me? If it is a god God is not just invisible, but he does not actually exist So So if you get it, let me just Let me pull it down I saw that I'm gonna show it once we are done I saw that now Also, let's continue with now Because you see churches People are thriving in churches People are believing in god in churches But we also have pastors who also believe in god But we also have pastors who've also been exposed to You know the kind of business they are doing does not align with what they are preaching What are your thoughts about you know now these pastors who've been exposed so Are they actually proving new right? The any pastor That holds a bible and tells you this is the word of god is in business You have to understand what a pastor is a pastor is somebody who has looked at The masses and realized I can do business with these people So what do you do? You you sell hope you look for something to sell and hope is what is sold in churches and hope is If you're selling hope who doesn't want hope Especially in hard economic times and challenges like this who does not want hope So what a pastor is any pastor any pastor doesn't matter whether it's a pope Of the catholic church whether it's the leader of the sdh diameter any pastor Holding a bible even the koran even a sheik what they are doing is they have realized that there's a mass here And that's how religion start started Religion and churches and most and all these things they began when somebody some we just realized People need hope So to me pastors it doesn't matter who any pastor Is just uh A human being who is in the business of selling hope using either the bible or the koran Or any other religious text And that is why you find there is no church that can survive unless you tell people you you will succeed don't worry You will succeed your problem will end And we've seen pastors even saying they are selling water look at pastor Is it pastor who they sell holy water they tell you this water if you drink it's gonna solve your problems You know pastors are selling all sorts of things these days to tell you that if you buy this Then you're going to Have a change in your life If you want a child your barren they they tell you what you need to do So this is pastors in kenya just in business just like pastors in the world And this is something called pierce pierce fraud pierce fraud is fraud that is committed Where you take advantage of people's beliefs And commit commitment to a religion and you use that to your advantage and that that is the work of pastors in kenya Yesterday we did a statement We want pastor nganga arrested By the DCI because it's also not fair You know, however Ask yourself why Uki patam to tom dogo Mwenyajui kitu Then umuambia fanya kitu eni hata hajvi anafanyanine is it fair It's not fair You know taking advantage of a child's ignorance And innocence That's the same thing that is happening with some pastors in kenya. They have taken advantage of the Ignorance and the vulnerability of kenyans To take a to to to get money from them That's why why becoming a pastor in kenya is big business big business And my my my I'll just tell kenyans again The message is what I told you just stop going to churches Just stop going to churches. Let's start doing other things We we are an economy that has so many challenges. Let's focus on there's so much to do churches will never help kenya They'll only help the politicians because you know politicians every election cycle they go to churches to To use those platforms to communicate to The followers but churches will never help kenyans a pastor will never help you a pastor Will never help you If you have a challenge, let's say you having a marriage challenge, you know your marriage is wrong Just go to a counselor talk to a counselor A counselor can help you more If you're having you don't have a job you're unemployed Talk to somebody who can help you get a job connect with somebody who can give you a job To me, that's how I see Things This obsession with You know I so I know people who call their pastors What I don't know a pastor is like you are you are go to password like your dad It's ridiculous You call your pastor a dad anybody who calls a pastor a dad needs to go to hospital to be checked How do you call your pastor your dad? You know you used and then there's this thing which I've also noticed. Why do people feel like they need A god somewhere It's a very strange phenomenon like you just sit down and like oh my goodness God is only one who can help me here. There's no god anywhere to help anybody. So I think pastors have just realized Kenyans pastors have realized that kenyans Are very very challenged in terms of critical thinking Number two a lot of kenyans are having challenges. I mean in their lives And selling hope is very easy in kenya Cause once you sell hope somebody feels good goes home feeling good With no results It's called hot air Well, okay mumia has said it guys What are your thoughts until to this point if you have something to say please let us know down On the comment section. What are your thoughts about this conversation because hey, it's a tricky one for sure Now mumia, let's talk about you know One of the guys that you are working with who was a secretary to the Atheist society Seth Seth Found jesus and he went back to you know to the church to god. What are your thoughts about you know now him Um deciding actually he doesn't now believe in what you guys believe in anymore You know, I saw Seth in church one one morning He went to church and he was prayed to He went before and said I used to be at Atheist, you know just looking at him. I'm like this guy We we worked with him so well I mean for like a year he was our secretary He used to sign our documents and he used to do everything Seth was my friend You know, we used to talk meet Go to the registrar together. We used to organize meetings. He used to be active When I saw him in church I was like What has gone wrong? Seth I think I think was too weak To be an Atheist. I mean he I think he's just a weakness He became weak Maybe he had many other challenges And he thought you know what maybe I need to look for different path because you know in Atheism When you're an Atheist now we don't have something that We can tell you know if you believe in this your problems are going to come to an end So I think Seth maybe when underwent some sort of Challenges and said no no no this is not helping. Let me turn back to Jesus or something like that We think he made a mistake because Just turning to Jesus and accepting Jesus does not change anything your problems remain there We wished him well. We told Seth Go well and thank you even thanked him for the one year he put in the Atheist movement We we we now have a new leadership. So we we are moving on But I think what normally happens is that People some somebody like Seth is just a representation of many Kenyans Who get to a point and they think they need Jesus or even God And this is the they push to this corner by the challenges the first set is a representation of that And we think that actually, let me just say this Seth, you know, wherever you are, please Come back Palu Menda oko. There's nothing just come back to reality Seth should come back to the Atheist society and uh We need him back to help us grow the community because I think where he's going is not going to help him Is going to Belong to a church is going to go through the emotions of religion But at the end of the day Nothing is going to change in his life And I think he moved there because of the challenges he was facing And and religion provides that, you know, maybe he thoughts Once I turn my life to Jesus my life is going to change The problem with most Kenyans actually that they think once they turn their life to Jesus They are Taking a turn in their lives Your life just continues Yeah, if it was going to be a mess gonna be a mess If it was going to improve, it's not about Jesus So Seth is just uh I'm a Potea, I mean I wanna Come and eat and think yeah I rode a pig a U-turn Yeah, he was a good secretary. He just come back to the society we work together Yeah Are there days that uh, you know, you find yourself saying oh god oh god like are there days you exclaim that? Yeah, yeah When whenever sometimes is something that happens that is like Exciting or interesting. I say oh god, but remember was a Christian before So this thing is just those things you keep saying As you've been saying since you were a child So it's just part of me When I say oh god, it does not mean that I believe in god. I'm just Saying something that I have been saying all my life and Sijiai toa iyo Haijiai ni toka It's something which I'm used to I even shout Jesus When I actually I think a week ago I shouted Jesus because You look at something you're like Jesus Is that just about to happen? But it does not mean I believe in Jesus. It just means I've been a Christian these things have not yet Departed From me, which is okay. I mean I have no problem shouting Jesus Jesus is just a way of expressing Excitement exactly period. It's nothing beyond that and people come to Facebook like What happens when you blah blah blah do you shout Jesus? I'm like, yes, I shout god I shout Jesus, but as a form of expressing something not as a form of belief Yeah, okay. Now, of course, you know marriage was also ordained by god as part of the biblical You know book Do you believe now that people should come together get ordained so that they can have children or you just believe that people should find each other May 10 have kids Uh First can we stop having kids? Oh really? Yeah Why? Because you know if you look at Especially Kenya right now Why don't we take care of the kids in the streets and uh, you know take care of people who need help Let's sort out our mess We are too many There is a lot happening There are children parents who cannot afford To take care of their children. I think we need to just put a stop To getting children for now Sort out our mess then we will resume this business much much later Well, that's it and that's I'm saying that because I think the population of the country is not sustainable right now And uh, we don't like having this conversation My thinking right now is that uh, let people stop getting children Let's let's if you if you want a child Let us have a system where we can adopt the existing ones And sort out our issues Look right now we have families who cannot even afford food We have people children who are loitering in the streets nobody is Taking caring about them not the government not us What if we just sat down as a people and decided look instead of me having my own child Why don't I especially if you are able Why don't we sort out this mess and then At a future date we can resume the business of manufacturing children The other thing which uh, uh, I'd like to say is that marriage is not uh a biblical In institution Before the bible africans had wives You know They had homes they had children So it was nothing it has nothing with the bible the bible just introduced this idea of adam and eve where people now borrow Like that's where you think family came from africans had families and very good ones by the way We lived in communities You build your home get a wife forget wives It was acceptable for legami was acceptable And people lived children grew and that's how people lived So family is is not a biblical concept The other thing I'll say is that uh, you notice these days people are not even interested in marriage. We are actually The world is changing Marriage is no longer as important as people think Women are not don't want to get married men They're not marrying And even if men are marrying you'll find you know even children not growing Within family children are not growing within families I mean you have so many single mothers right now We have fathers who are not living with their children So things are changing. So what I would urge Right now is uh don't focus so much on you know, I need a family No To me what I'm seeing is we need to have economic empowerment for everybody So that if even if you date and you get children Or marry and you get children and the marriage breaks down You can be able to you know take care of Of your children And that to me is more important Marriage is no longer that important thing that it used to be in my view. It's it's losing meaning actually If you look at sex sex has become so commonplace these days dating apps are there people can meet Whatever so I think to me marriage is losing its essence And we need to now move with the times We need to agree and accept that people might no longer be interested in marrying And let's just empower everybody Let's just make people empowered enough so that you don't need to think a husband needs to be there To take care of you actually my advice to ladies This business of thinking that you need that man To take care of you To to take care of you to provide you with a home You know to provide for you and your children start getting rid of it in your mind Be empowered Be able to take even if your husband dies You should be able to To to to give your children the life that they deserve So that is what I think so I've said two things number one three things actually Let's let's rethink children Tila zima ataba desila zima otwapati watotosa But on that aspect of children, you know people give birth to their children so that they can continue their lineage Their legacy They are family genetics and all that should we let that go legacy you can continue in other ways Like you can continue you can write a book. That's legacy Write a book about your thoughts No, no, no, I'm saying let's stop this lineage business sort out our issues Yeah, and if you look at Jesus Jesus our child But is it Do we do we does it matter So I don't think we need to really and if you are a christian, why don't we follow Jesus as an example Especially if you are a man don't marry and don't get kids just have disciples or something Is the body new on that one, but also these this aspect of no sex intimacy Because now you see now the Bible says the body is the temple of God And also spiritually they say is when you get intimate with so many other people you are exchanging this Saltis you know, you have in this saltis. Do you believe in those things? Who came with this name called saltis Nimeske ojin asana ati saltis when you have sex we exchanging saltis I think somebody has just made up this name to make it look like we exchanging something Sex has nothing to do with saltis actually souls don't exist So sex is just sex, you know you you have sex and You know that at the end of it you remain yourself So So energies are not exchanged nothing because that's what energy you use is the energy you use when having sex Like moving your legs You know your hips or whatever Your hands that's it, but there's no soul ties being exchanged. There's nothing you're exchanging Just having sex You ejaculate and that's it You wake up move on to other things. I mean, there's no I don't know why people Who came up with this idea of saltis because it has made people scared for nothing I think That uh sex is just a way of How we reproduce it has nothing to do with saltis If you have sex chances are you'll get pregnant and Once you get pregnant you get a baby. That's the purpose of sex To to repro to procreate To have the next generation Coming that is it manenuya saltis akuna sex But what about about you know these people engage in it without the agenda of procreation Does that you know sentiment support Support immorality No, no, no sex is not immoral sex is just sex If me and you want to have sex we will It's not immoral. It's me and you having sex. That's it When you want to have sex just just decide With whom you want to have sex if she's okay or he's okay. That's it There's nothing immoral about that, you know, remember we are now we are not Morality The religious morality Right now let's accept it's not it's not um It's not part of us people have moved on from religious morality We on the equation of sex I think people are having sex and by the way that we like it or not They'll keep having it the media, you know, there's a lot of ponsites and all these things going on people will have sex So and people will continue having sex and I don't think it's a bad thing to have sex With whoever you want. Those are personal decisions If you want to have sex with somebody just Me and encourage you We don't want to have sex with anyone Because we don't want to have sex with them There are people who don't have sex I've been on TikTok. Let me tell you something I've been on TikTok. I've heard this thing of njota. It is nonsense Like just just understand You can achieve whatever you want. Yeah You can go for whatever you want. You can become whoever you want to be there matter Ellen mask is the richest person or not. Do you know how many women He has even ex-wives just go read his story He married divorced married divorced has had a girlfriend. He has children all over the place Look at Donald Trump Donald Trump has several wives ex-wives different children And there he is A billionaire Look at many others. We have very very influential people Who's sex life and marriage It's quite a different story But they have been able to achieve a lot A lot in life in terms of what they want to do So how do you then explain that I think people should just relax Consider sex to be just sex And don't be scared There are no soul ties Akuna njota ita kwa ribikiya And elianan pangoyako If you're in school for example if you have sex Like if I remember in campus, me I had a lot of sex in campus I'm saying this because people are having sex in campus I think we need to normalize this discussion And conversation I had sex with some girls We used to go for parties and have sex And uh I'm not saying this to show that it's it's it's something that people should Look at like every day wake up in the morning have sex. I'm just saying it's normal As part of life we are sexual beings Yeah, and there's nothing about soul ties about it And people should just relax And and it's happening anyway It's going to continue happening And husbands will continue having sex With not just their wives but side chicks And this thing is just going to continue Hey, do you believe marriage works? Marriage was never meant to be there in the first place Just think about it How is it possible that we have an institution that says Me and you should be together forever until we die Who came up with this funny notion? Because you know if if we are to be honest it's it's not normal to just live with one person and be happy For the rest of your life. It's not normal. You get bored You want a new excitement I talk about these things on tiktok on my tiktok channel Marriage is not normal It's not a normal institution. It should be abolished People should stop this idea that you're looking for this one person You know I hear people saying I'm looking for my rib Or I'm looking for this soulmate I'm looking for this person. That person doesn't exist But now what happens when it comes to procreation and raising children together in a happy family People understand that today what you need is not to just get somebody and procreate Let's empower people Raising a human being is resources. It's money. It's education. It is health. It is so many things Emotions as well But emotions are not It's really from father and mother You can have a father and mother who are really bad by the When I began I thought you were depressed So I think for me the community is more important Like if you can even have a community Ancos and people who can be there for the child when he needs Father and mother is not To me the Defaults when it comes to family. We need to expand that. Let's look at a child as part of Mini kipatam to toa kwa kwa streets You know na mepotia na nezam sa idea. You can even We need to have A more communal way of looking at children A father and mother and you know right now If you look at the divorce rates, they are very high. The separation rates in the country are very high So we need to look at children from a different perspective What a child needs is to be guaranteed of one education health emotional. Yes But you'll find most of the time mothers are the one to end up with kids, right So let's empower the woman Provide that, you know, even that emotional. Yeah, let's empower empowerment is key to Our upbringing of children right now And I'm saying this because to be honest Right now it's single mothers who are raising children. Let's let's just look at what's happening Maybe we don't don't have statistics, but we need to have them. It's I think they actually say 50 percent of women by the age of Of uh, something I think above 35 or something are single mothers. Yeah And 50 percent is a huge percentage. That means We are basically having a country where Single motherhood is almost becoming the the norm So what that means is that uh If that is the case, so where are we going? Do we keep pumping into people's heads? You need a family. You need a husband. You need a wife. No Empower people so that they they they take The the issue of raising children You know Away from the marriage institution like without a husband. You can still raise a child without without a wife You can still raise a child, but this affects women more. That's what I want to say It is women do not backing in our total So if you ask me for me mothers need to be empowered and that is why issue of unemployment Ilazima to improve your sector. The government should really make sure that people are able to get a job where there is health Provided health care. There is education education should be free And uh, a child is guaranteed a child is guaranteed many other things Do you think if we empower women more to take care of their kids by themselves in case something happens We are we are going to be empowering men To walk away because now they know the kids are going to be taken care of do you think that might happen Men will always many men will walk away But can we start empowering them not to walk away Because it's not easy as much as you're empowered. It's not easy bringing this child alone Marriage has no future by the way That's just get to terms with this fact. There's no generation z kwanza Maraji aikahina futures are easy There's nobody in generation z sitting down waiting to get that one Man no these days people are thinking of Developing themselves I don't see people waiting to get maraji zinaisha na e generation ing in and in and in and it's being wiped out The next one People are focusing more on people will go work in other countries People will grow up and do their own things people will have sex without You know any attention to morality That's where we are going And children are going to be born without even people marrying. I mean we are going to a place Kenyans should start accepting The future is not in marriage marriage is actually a dying institution Marriage is going to die in the next 50 years people will not be so focused on marriage Maybe partnerships, maybe you date maybe you have prenups Maybe you come together not under marriage, but you just become Partners maybe for a long time Ikiisha in Naisha come it and delay and delay. That's where we are going We are going to a situation where nobody will be walking to church To sign papers and do a big dance and kwanza pesa kwa ii me pandisha ni 50,000 Ni 100,000 kwa eji Is it 50? How much is it? I think it's 50 kwa It's not 100 I think it's 50 Kus uh And I think that's a good thing Me I like the fact that In the area of marriage we are actually increasing the fee. That means that you have to also be very serious when you're doing it Yeah Let's serious people When they will call the problem is people are still going to get children that doesn't stop that So um for me the family unit is on its death bed It itaisha the family unit Is not the future the future is partnerships Short-term relationships Single parenthood that is where we are going and the swuna kenyans agree the better right now nobody is really thinking I've not had a young girl saying, you know I'm looking for these prince charming. Okay. They are there, but um You know really really after a while somebody realizes this is not coming Yeah, and if you can even the people who are marrying They're just divorcing and separating which is a good thing. We need to just Totally break this institution of married and just start living our lives You can't love somebody forever People say they love each other forever, you know when you live with somebody things change Today I love you tomorrow. I'm looking at you differently. It's just the nature of things People have forced each other into this cell called marriage like we being told everybody needs to marry, but Me if you ask me it's no longer an important institution. We need to rethink our relationships And accommodate the new We in the era of single parenthood. So we need to sort of accommodate that as well You mentioned that you know Behind the scenes we were talking about african religion and the the biblical religion that was brought to africans Do you believe in the african? Africans just had a way of relating to nature and that's a good thing They related to trees Animals they used to believe like like in luya We believe that when abat Abat not abat when an owl comes to a place somebody will die. We just had a way of relating with nature Um, of course, some of those things are not true Yeah, we prayed facing mount kenya, but there was no god in mount kenya But uh, I I think in terms of rituals, we should have maintained some of those rituals Yeah ritualistically, I think it's you know having tradition You know tradition is is what belongs to you. It doesn't have to be true To me I support the tradition But I don't think that the african gods existed But I think they just had a way of relating so it's gonna rain So why is it raining because we have sacrificed a lamb or a cow or whatever Somebody is dead like in luya we When somebody is dead we have to slaughter cows and do this and that Those cultures should should have been maintained Yeah Why am I saying so the reminders of who we are Where we came from our history our grand great grandfathers, you know how they lived And all that so that's important But of course, I don't think like for example the african god exists. I don't think like Um An all coming to patch in a tree on a tree in your homestead means somebody is going to die So it's not really those are not facts We what I feel bad about is that we lost our culture and we lost our Relationship with nature. We lost what will be lived in You know, so we are even losing our language People don't know no longer even speak their mother tongues, which is not a good thing So we needed to have maintained our culture So once you maintain your culture It just helps you to understand where you're coming from As a as a human being what is where your roots What is your history? You can go become a phd holder of some empakako, but you know These are your roots when I go home. These are my roots. This is how we used to do things This is how we used to you know Yeah, so that is I think that's where I have a problem with Us adapting religion christianity and islam At the expense of our culture. That's the one thing which I think I don't like How are you able to handle this criticism because even from this I am sure that people were going crazy right now on the comment section As they comment down below, how are you able to handle this criticism and also Was there a point when you felt I'm not taking the right direction, especially when you know you are changing your belief No, no, no, you can't live in a world where so if you want to do something just do it In this world the criticism is just part of Especially great people People like me And others who have come up with you know new ways of thinking they'll be always criticism So I welcome it if you want to criticize me, please feel free because that's life I welcome any criticism. I take it positively Sometimes you can criticize me and help me to rethink a few things but not on the existence of god because god God is dead So we we we I normally say Criticism is just part of life On Facebook on social media you receive a lot of criticism, but what do you do? Everybody has an opinion about you Everybody has an opinion about everything So you have to just say in in a world where there are millions and billions of people You can't just do something and expect everybody to be happy Somebody will say something about what you're doing Somebody will look at your hair somebody will look at something small in you and just Comment somebody will look at even you know, we are in a world of opinion to let people just Criticize just part of part of life. It's part of life. Yeah as we wind up Let me know also what are your thoughts about death because you know that people believe when you die Your soul goes somewhere. We are going to have Sikuiakiyama What are your thoughts about death? No first people should stop worrying about death because we are all going to die. So let's not like Worry about death. Nobody has ever died and come and told us We Yeah, so why are we worrying? Nobody has come and told us it's a bad thing to die Nobody has told us there's a good place we go to So if you just die I think he is a thing This is how I think about death Death is the end of life That's it the end of life as we know it the life that I have right now when I die I'll have no life Whatever happens after that nobody really knows and for me. I don't care That's not my business. Yeah, it's it's not my business You know saying it's it's it's the business of After death, I don't know nobody really knows But we come and say, you know, they'll be heaven. They'll be hell. Those are just books that are saying that Those are books That's religion telling you what will happen and these are stories but Nobody really knows Nobody has ever come and said, you know what mumia? This is what happens. I died I resurrected and this is what happened No You know because um, I feel like the reason people feel bad when you know they think about death Is because they might lose their loved ones and these emotions attached to it When people get married, it's because they love each other and these emotions Emotions attached to that. Do you have emotions? Yes, yes, yes, if somebody close I lost my dad to cancer three years ago. So I understand it's a bad thing To lose to lose a loved one But I think also with time i'm starting to accept that death is Part of life So you have to accept that death is actually part of our existence We cannot be alive if we're not going to die. I mean we have to die. That's why we are alive so It's good to also along your life just accept some of these facts We are going to die one time and If you accept that you gonna probably live a happier life Yeah, and even somebody when somebody dies Once you accept it you sort of just give him a send off and say that was your time Came to an end. Mi am moving on What about ancestors do you believe in them because you know, there are people who still believe their ancestors are seeing them through Who are ancestors by the other people who lived long time ago? See they lived and died so like I don't know what's there about them So like what what's what about them here ancestors People have just lived and died long time ago as we are now here We will live with that we are doing I don't care about what ancestors did Me to mi am here I have things to do we are in 2023. There's so much to do There is climate change. There is the atheist society. There is my my career There is there's so much to this visiting the national parks is traveling around the world So my where do my ancestors come in with all that they are reading books cooking how do my ancestors come in But I hear ancestors ati, you know, I hear ancestors are what They have an influence, you know your ancestors People should stop. Why do people worry so much? I wonder with this country of ours People worry about death. They worry about God. You're worrying about ancestors Like you're worrying about the devil. Can people just live Live learn how to live. That's my message to Kenyans Wake up do something positive to yourself for yourself and others Coming as a kana that's basically it Stop we are complicating a very simple life Wake up and focus on what matters Kamani kazi fanya kazi Kamani biashara fanya biashara Just live it well exercise, you know be positive about life because it deserve of challenges Have some good mental health, you know read books You know just just live and by there as you live remember things could have you could be hit by a vehicle But if that happens, you know deal with it. That's how life is Yeah All right, mumia, we hear you. Are there any last words to know to Kenyans your fellow atheist? What can you tell them? Now just want to tell first the atheists in Kenya Atheists not just atheists if you're a humanist You're an agnostic a spiritualist a free thinker A skeptic, you know A spiritualist people believe in spirits, but we still we still welcome them Go to our website and register as a member We have a lot of events That we we normally conduct every month So Just register Check our events page follow us on all our socials And uh Yeah connect with a lot of other atheists In Kenya who have realized that actually god is dead. So basically just just join us Basically my message Kenya just visit our website register join us. We are happy to have you Kenya is transforming less and less people go to church be part of our community and Learn learn from the atheist community how you can live without god Okay, all right. All right, mumia. Thank you so much for talking to us coming to espion bars, you know just um Give you nice insights on who an atheist is and what they believe in All right, guys, I don't know what are your thoughts about this conversation that we've just had here In case you have a comment, please make sure To leave it down below and we are going to be looking at it And in case you want to see mumia right here once again Please let us know let us know also on the comments section Thank you so much for watching buzz. It's taz. That was it My good name is miss kithingi until next time. It's goodbye from us Bye bye